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Justin Cody
Hard Knocks Inc.
Hard Knocks Citizens
303
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Posted - 2015.08.06 00:07:42 -
[31] - Quote
Starbuilder Stasarik wrote:Adriana Nolen wrote:Citadels will end up being a **** up of epic proportions. Instead of reworking the existing code, adding new features & greatly improving the UI, all we will end up with is a bastardization of a decent idea poorly implemented & will take years to fix. I will say this as a developer with experience in a number of complex mid-sized programs (6-8 million lines, primarily for the banking industry): there are numerous times when it's faster, better, cheaper, and simply easier to throw out your existing code for a purpose and redo it from scratch. Yes, it's possible for software to be so poorly programmed that "burn it all down and start again" is the most feasible choice regardless of the angle you look at it. "Reworking the existing code" on something that has been said to be as difficult as POS code can very easily fall into those types of lines. Instead of criticizing something that you know nothing about due to the information being as-yet unreleased, I suggest you take a chill pill, pour yourself a cold drink, and put on some Jazz. I'm rather fond of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9S93oz6BuvI for post-stressful-day cooldowns. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZuj_beuMc4 is an excellent alternative if you want something a bit less "Jazzy."
Jazzy+Metal get you this
But yes they should burn it all down. It should be good once the legacy code is gone for good. They are giving themseves the time to get it right not just to be kind to the player base. |
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Prolapse.
2650
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Posted - 2015.08.06 00:43:46 -
[32] - Quote
So, if size is anything to go by these things will cost about 750 billion ISK to produce: evidence.
This is kind of a big deal. I know size doesn't scale linearly with mineral cost, but certainly the size of these things is suggesive of rather herculean amounts of materials.
The only good thing I can see is that the POCO gantry costs 75M and ends up being around about 20km on its long axis. So the guesstimate for a medium Citadel would therefore be in the range of 750M. Which is expensive but doable. it's also realistically on par with a current large POS plus gumf, which is what it is replacing.
My feedback, if Goonbexx and co. are watching, is to consider the price / utility trade-off for something that may well not defend itself, allowing trollceptors to turn it into space hobbit cans in no time at all. If you do have to spend more than a couple of billion ISK on a Medium Citadel, its probably not worth it.
This is kind of a crummy underhanded bass-ackwards way of getting people to move out of wormholes en-masse via pricing it out of reach of the vast majority of organisations. I would not want to see that.
I mean, I will pay a chunk of cash to build one, but not 10 billion. Certainly not, if size relative to Avatar is any guide, 75 billion plus. Hell, my whole alliance probably doesn't have that much liquid cash lying around and I'm no space poor. It might be a good remedy to escalation krabbing, getting them to have to invest serious spendoolas and effort to jack up a Citadel versus a medium tower with a pair of hardeners, SMA and CHA like they do now. But there's a hell of a lot of small 8-30 man corps who are just starting out in wormhole space who couldn't short of life- and marriage- and psyche-destroying grinding of Incursions afford Citadels at over a billion ISK, just to go make dangerous poverty money in wormholes.
So, yeah, if you want people out of wormholes entirely, like your original but discredited, trammelled and discarded original design principle (which you should get the **** over) then Citadels are a good first step if they cost too much.
Doctor Prince Field Marshall of Prolapse. Alliance and Grand Sasquatch of Bob
We take Batphones. Contact us at Hola Batmanuel - Free call 1800-UR-MOMMA
~~ Localectomy Blog ~~
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Borg Stoneson
SWARTA
Mostly Clueless
47
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Posted - 2015.08.06 06:37:14 -
[33] - Quote
Adriana Nolen wrote:Citadels will end up being a **** up of epic proportions. Instead of reworking the existing code, adding new features & greatly improving the UI, all we will end up with is a bastardization of a decent idea poorly implemented & will take years to fix.
I have no complaints with that, I've been saying they should just scrap the whole thing and make something new since before fuelblocks came out. I would have prefered a more organic growth system, but that's just me.
I have concerns about the implementation, this is EVE and CCP after all but even the "OMG it's all terrible!" doomsayings are better than POS's in most regards for running a WH operation out of. Hope we get the new structures soon, being an early adopter will be hell but I think it'll be worth it.
Also I doubt the medium will be 750bil, a lot of that size is taken up by hangers and other empty spaces after all, from what I understand Titans are quite solid constructions. |
Bleedingthrough
180
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Posted - 2015.08.06 07:21:07 -
[34] - Quote
Trinkets friend wrote:
My feedback, if Goonbexx and co. are watching, is to consider the price / utility trade-off for something that may well not defend itself, allowing trollceptors to turn it into space hobbit cans in no time at all. If you do have to spend more than a couple of billion ISK on a Medium Citadel, its probably not worth it.
Why would you asume this?
They should be afordable for the size of group they are tailored for:
Quote:Medium sized Citadel structures will be around 5-25km in diameter and are tailored for individual or small groups of players. ...
Large sized Citadel structures will be around 25-50km in diameter and are made for corporations or even small alliances.
They will defend themselves:
Quote:We have established Citadels need to be able to take care of themselves in a fight.
As such they should:
Repel trolling attempts from a single player trying to capture them with an Entosis module
...
Also CCP stated elsewhere (I really donGÇÖt know where) that the capture process will be fine-tuned for w-space, e,g, vulnerability timers etc.. |
GizzyBoy
Aperture Harmonics
K162
177
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Posted - 2015.08.06 07:31:25 -
[35] - Quote
Dat black hole troll ceptor tho with links good luck catching that if you live in one of those. |
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
1757
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Posted - 2015.08.06 07:43:11 -
[36] - Quote
I'm nervous about the lack of automated guns. Sure, there's a vulnerability window but as we all know being a fews jumps out in a WH chain ain't the same as being a few jumps out in K space to try to respond to a ping.
brb training all throwaway alts in pos gunning skills. |
Andrew Jester
ElitistOps
Pandemic Legion
1307
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Posted - 2015.08.06 13:07:25 -
[37] - Quote
Bleedingthrough wrote:Also CCP stated elsewhere (I really donGÇÖt know where) that the capture process will be fine-tuned for w-space, e,g, vulnerability timers etc..
yeah that'll DEFINITELY happen
afkalt wrote:brb training all throwaway alts in pos gunning skills.
how do you not have these already..?
If thuggin' was a category I'd win a Grammy
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Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Prolapse.
2651
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Posted - 2015.08.07 01:53:53 -
[38] - Quote
Bleedingthrough wrote:Trinkets friend wrote:
My feedback, if Goonbexx and co. are watching, is to consider the price / utility trade-off for something that may well not defend itself, allowing trollceptors to turn it into space hobbit cans in no time at all. If you do have to spend more than a couple of billion ISK on a Medium Citadel, its probably not worth it.
Why would you asume this? They should be afordable for the size of group they are tailored for: Quote:Medium sized Citadel structures will be around 5-25km in diameter and are tailored for individual or small groups of players. ...
Large sized Citadel structures will be around 25-50km in diameter and are made for corporations or even small alliances. They will defend themselves: Quote:We have established Citadels need to be able to take care of themselves in a fight.
As such they should:
Repel trolling attempts from a single player trying to capture them with an Entosis module
... Also CCP stated elsewhere (I really donGÇÖt know where) that the capture process will be fine-tuned for w-space, e,g, vulnerability timers etc..
Well, ntil the devblog comes out / gets updated / F&I thread starts, we will just have to speculate on the vulnerability window. There's been enough vague CCPish vacillation on this, in discussions and blogs, that stating it as fact at this point is disingenuous.
As to the cost, just look at the size of the Medium Citadel and tell me that it's for a single player. I mean, sure, anything's affordable for a single player in a game where there's no upper limit to your wealth accumulation capacity and you can Krab all day long in a C5 Mag. That's not the point, is it?
POS's start at 65M ISK market price and go up to 1.5B (or so) for faction larges. Add a full fit of faction to a faction Large and XLSMA to store your toys, and you're in the vicinity of 2.5-3.25 billion. Yes, very affordable for most players. But this is an apples and oranges comparison now.
The advantage of a POS for a solo player is that it has automated defences, up to 180M EHP (more if you go a TF Style dampstar) and is invulnerable to fozziesov space lasers, and therefore, small groups of people who want to teabag your POS when you are asleep. It therefore has huge utility to a Krab herdering turd lord in a wormhole because you can effectively claim a system with a couple of DST loads of materials. Hell the moment you put the stick down and toss fuel into a Large, you've got a strategically defensible bubble with 30M EHP.
Citadels owned by solo players with non-automatic defences and a vulnerability timer are not useful for solo neckbeards. The moment someone figures out you are a solo player or a bunch of alts in a 8 man krab corp and you don't sign on every day (or even if you do) they'll entosis your Citadel and when you come out to repair it, pod you out and finish the job.
So, again because you are dense and unable to logic your way out of a wet paper bag, how much would the average neckbeard want to pay for an indefensible chunk of useless troll bait?
Doctor Prince Field Marshall of Prolapse. Alliance and Grand Sasquatch of Bob
We take Batphones. Contact us at Hola Batmanuel - Free call 1800-UR-MOMMA
~~ Localectomy Blog ~~
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Bleedingthrough
180
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Posted - 2015.08.07 07:51:42 -
[39] - Quote
Good morning Trickets,
are you done or do you want to flame calaretu as well?
We canGÇÖt have a discussion if you insult people that cite what they believe to be up-to-date design goals from the developers. This is mutually exclusive. Are you mature enough to understand this?
Besides, I agree with you: If they use the upper limit for the destiny sphere (25km) they have to be unrealistically cheap. So will they end up costing that much? No! That would totally contradict CCPs design goals, their frame of reference. So CCP will either get them resized (to the lower limit, 5 km) and/or we have to live in a shockingly unrealistic gaming world. Big deal.
What really worries me is that CCP changed their mind on passive defenses. I was honestly shocked because I canGÇÖt think of a way this can potentially work. |
Winthorp
3608
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Posted - 2015.08.07 08:00:58 -
[40] - Quote
Trinkets friend wrote: Citadels owned by solo players with non-automatic defences and a vulnerability timer are not useful for solo neckbeards. The moment someone figures out you are a solo player or a bunch of alts in a 8 man krab corp and you don't sign on every day (or even if you do) they'll entosis your Citadel and when you come out to repair it, pod you out and finish the job.
how much would the average neckbeard want to pay for an indefensible chunk of useless troll bait?
This is probably the scariest part of all. Combined with the docking games it will be pretty bad i think.
I am Winthorp, you might remember me from such films as "Winthorp is to blame for permanent signature ID's".
Please note i don't engage in any meaningful discussion with NPC alts, nut up or shut up...
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Andrew Jester
ElitistOps
Pandemic Legion
1312
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Posted - 2015.08.07 12:54:09 -
[41] - Quote
I wonder if the entosis timer for it will be the default time with default vulnerability window, or if you can raise indexes in your WH to make it harder.
If thuggin' was a category I'd win a Grammy
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Jezza McWaffle
ShipRekt
239
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Posted - 2015.08.07 13:06:10 -
[42] - Quote
Would be a new way of gathering data on NPC activity, who has the highest indexes! :D
Take a look at my startup C5 PvP WH corp adventures, we are recruiting
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Andrew Jester
ElitistOps
Pandemic Legion
1312
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Posted - 2015.08.07 13:08:14 -
[43] - Quote
Could be hard to keep them up though since anoms don't refresh like they do in null
If thuggin' was a category I'd win a Grammy
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Jezza McWaffle
ShipRekt
239
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Posted - 2015.08.07 14:54:14 -
[44] - Quote
I suspect they'll just give us naturally high index levels or something. Would be stupid if it was at level zero.
Take a look at my startup C5 PvP WH corp adventures, we are recruiting
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Chance Ravinne
WiNGSPAN Delivery Services
429
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Posted - 2015.08.07 15:59:56 -
[45] - Quote
The entosis system certainly draws a line in the sand. If a structure is going to sit abandoned 99% of the time, it is going to be a sitting duck. Luckily basic trolling attempts will be shrugged off since the attackers are unlikely to come back for later rounds of reinforcement. But if you can't be added to repair the building or man the guns for the final timer, GG.
You've just read another awesome post by Chance Ravinne, CEO of EVE's #1 torpedo delivery service. Watch our misadventures on my YouTube channel: WINGSPANTT
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Andrew Jester
ElitistOps
Pandemic Legion
1312
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Posted - 2015.08.07 16:10:35 -
[46] - Quote
Jezza McWaffle wrote:I suspect they'll just give us naturally high index levels or something. Would be stupid if it was at level zero.
you'd think that, but I wouldn't be surprised if that's not true
Chance Ravinne wrote:The entosis system certainly draws a line in the sand. If a structure is going to sit abandoned 99% of the time, it is going to be a sitting duck. Luckily basic trolling attempts will be shrugged off since the attackers are unlikely to come back for later rounds of reinforcement. But if you can't be added to repair the building or man the guns for the final timer, GG.
way to give a long-generic answer that doesn't answer anything. #1 WH CSM~
If thuggin' was a category I'd win a Grammy
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Jezza McWaffle
ShipRekt
239
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Posted - 2015.08.07 17:26:02 -
[47] - Quote
You have to think how these structures will also work in Low Sec as well where there is no sov, so I guess CCP might hard code something either into the systems or the structures themselves where you get a set 'index' level.
Since they've already said they are looking into how index's affect the timers for other areas of space that isn't sov null.
Take a look at my startup C5 PvP WH corp adventures, we are recruiting
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Neckbeard Nolyfe
Zero Fun Allowed
86
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Posted - 2015.08.07 17:31:04 -
[48] - Quote
Chance Ravinne wrote:The entosis system certainly draws a line in the sand. If a structure is going to sit abandoned 99% of the time, it is going to be a sitting duck. Luckily basic trolling attempts will be shrugged off since the attackers are unlikely to come back for later rounds of reinforcement. But if you can't be added to repair the building or man the guns for the final timer, GG.
The ability to kill citadels using a 55k sp toon in a noobship truly is balanced and exactly what wh space needs.
~lvl 60 paladin~
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Andrew Jester
ElitistOps
Pandemic Legion
1312
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Posted - 2015.08.07 17:40:35 -
[49] - Quote
Jezza McWaffle wrote:You have to think how these structures will also work in Low Sec as well where there is no sov, so I guess CCP might hard code something either into the systems or the structures themselves where you get a set 'index' level.
Since they've already said they are looking into how index's affect the timers for other areas of space that isn't sov null.
Good point. Same with NPC null. Was basing my prediction off of what's currently implemented. Will be interested to see what solution they go with.
If thuggin' was a category I'd win a Grammy
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Winthorp
3609
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Posted - 2015.08.07 20:09:32 -
[50] - Quote
Chance Ravinne wrote:The entosis system certainly draws a line in the sand. If a structure is going to sit abandoned 99% of the time, it is going to be a sitting duck. Luckily basic trolling attempts will be shrugged off since the attackers are unlikely to come back for later rounds of reinforcement. But if you can't be added to repair the building or man the guns for the final timer, GG.
You are joking right? When it only takes an interceptor and a covops logged off in their system and keep doing this over and over to a POS that doesn't shoot back.
I am Winthorp, you might remember me from such films as "Winthorp is to blame for permanent signature ID's".
Please note i don't engage in any meaningful discussion with NPC alts, nut up or shut up...
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Andrew Jester
ElitistOps
Pandemic Legion
1313
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Posted - 2015.08.07 20:52:10 -
[51] - Quote
are you joking? it's GOOD gameplay. You just don't understand how EMERGENT it truly is.
If thuggin' was a category I'd win a Grammy
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Jezza McWaffle
ShipRekt
239
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Posted - 2015.08.07 22:06:51 -
[52] - Quote
Emergent, thats what she said
Take a look at my startup C5 PvP WH corp adventures, we are recruiting
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Ripblade Falconpunch
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
335
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Posted - 2015.08.07 22:10:14 -
[53] - Quote
Chance Ravinne wrote:The entosis system certainly draws a line in the sand. If a structure is going to sit abandoned 99% of the time, it is going to be a sitting duck. Luckily basic trolling attempts will be shrugged off since the attackers are unlikely to come back for later rounds of reinforcement. But if you can't be added to repair the building or man the guns for the final timer, GG.
 Thanks, Captain Obvious. We all saw the activity chart, you can stop pretending to be an active CSM member with insightful posts like this now. |
calaretu
Honestly We didnt know
Unsettled.
367
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Posted - 2015.08.08 06:16:43 -
[54] - Quote
Neckbeard Nolyfe wrote:Chance Ravinne wrote:The entosis system certainly draws a line in the sand. If a structure is going to sit abandoned 99% of the time, it is going to be a sitting duck. Luckily basic trolling attempts will be shrugged off since the attackers are unlikely to come back for later rounds of reinforcement. But if you can't be added to repair the building or man the guns for the final timer, GG. The ability to kill citadels using a 55k sp toon in a noobship truly is balanced and exactly what wh space needs.
I too use to go afk from game for over a month and are furious that someone may be able to take down my citadel. Unlike now. Yes Pos such safe and new is just horrible.
/sarcasm
~Bringer of happiness
http://collapsedbehind.blogspot.no/
.ORLY is recruiting
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Justin Cody
Hard Knocks Inc.
Hard Knocks Citizens
305
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Posted - 2015.08.08 08:11:38 -
[55] - Quote
Andrew Jester wrote:I wonder if the entosis timer for it will be the default time with default vulnerability window, or if you can raise indexes in your WH to make it harder.
probably be default multiplier in W-space. Which is fine by me anyhow. Its hard enough to mount an offense into any hole that I don't mind a reduced multiplier. Also you don't have to deal with sov...just vulnerability windows/RF timers. |
Justin Cody
Hard Knocks Inc.
Hard Knocks Citizens
305
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Posted - 2015.08.08 08:15:54 -
[56] - Quote
Andrew Jester wrote:Jezza McWaffle wrote:You have to think how these structures will also work in Low Sec as well where there is no sov, so I guess CCP might hard code something either into the systems or the structures themselves where you get a set 'index' level.
Since they've already said they are looking into how index's affect the timers for other areas of space that isn't sov null. Good point. Same with NPC null. Was basing my prediction off of what's currently implemented. Will be interested to see what solution they go with.
Fac War will probably integrate those bonuses +10 -> +50% or something in the multiplier so I see little to change there. It might make running plexes matter more for defense in terms of contesting a system.
For the rest of low sec I'd anticipate a standard multiplier like in W-space of 1.0.
*shrugs* I don't see a problem there. |
Justin Cody
Hard Knocks Inc.
Hard Knocks Citizens
305
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Posted - 2015.08.08 08:16:44 -
[57] - Quote
corbexx wrote:any size can go anywhere at the moment.
I've also pointed this in the way of CCP Nullarbor (well he actually asked for a link).
w00t
suck it W-space haters. Gonna get my w-space DD on! |
Neckbeard Nolyfe
Zero Fun Allowed
86
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Posted - 2015.08.08 13:03:38 -
[58] - Quote
calaretu wrote:Neckbeard Nolyfe wrote:Chance Ravinne wrote:The entosis system certainly draws a line in the sand. If a structure is going to sit abandoned 99% of the time, it is going to be a sitting duck. Luckily basic trolling attempts will be shrugged off since the attackers are unlikely to come back for later rounds of reinforcement. But if you can't be added to repair the building or man the guns for the final timer, GG. The ability to kill citadels using a 55k sp toon in a noobship truly is balanced and exactly what wh space needs. I too use to go afk from game for over a month and are furious that someone may be able to take down my citadel. Unlike now. Yes Pos such safe and new is just horrible. /sarcasm
No,no the risk vs reward is totally balanced. And people can really commit to the emergent gameplay and fun it provides.
Not to mention the ability to speed up the process by risking and committing more entosis assets, it will make wormhole defense amazing.
I'm sure that everyone can't wait to take down their ****** poses that use fuel, and replace them with free-to-use amazing citadels that can only be killed by committing a lot of expensive heavy assets.
~lvl 60 paladin~
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Ilaister
Isogen 5
232
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Posted - 2015.08.08 20:21:49 -
[59] - Quote
https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/3frink/csm10_csmx_post_22_a_call_for_structure_questions/ |
calaretu
Honestly We didnt know
Unsettled.
367
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Posted - 2015.08.08 22:15:18 -
[60] - Quote
Neckbeard Nolyfe wrote:calaretu wrote:Neckbeard Nolyfe wrote:Chance Ravinne wrote:The entosis system certainly draws a line in the sand. If a structure is going to sit abandoned 99% of the time, it is going to be a sitting duck. Luckily basic trolling attempts will be shrugged off since the attackers are unlikely to come back for later rounds of reinforcement. But if you can't be added to repair the building or man the guns for the final timer, GG. The ability to kill citadels using a 55k sp toon in a noobship truly is balanced and exactly what wh space needs. I too use to go afk from game for over a month and are furious that someone may be able to take down my citadel. Unlike now. Yes Pos such safe and new is just horrible. /sarcasm No,no the risk vs reward is totally balanced. And people can really commit to the emergent gameplay and fun it provides. Not to mention the ability to speed up the process by risking and committing more entosis assets, it will make wormhole defense amazing. I'm sure that everyone can't wait to take down their ****** poses that use fuel, and replace them with free-to-use amazing citadels that can only be killed by committing a lot of expensive heavy assets.
Tbh I'm just tired of people not bothering to read what ccp has already stated. Thats apparently including this csm member quoted. Citadels will have a automated defense system that will counter trollceptors. If you want to entosis an afk citadel you actually have to commit something that can handle the basic defense. Like with POS (yes solo dread or marauder can RF most POS' in wspace). Unlike POS however a manned citadel is a lot more dangerous. A manned POS is at best a tiny bit of extra grind to incap stuff. Seriously, why dont people do basic research before whining? No you cant kill citadels in noobship.
~Bringer of happiness
http://collapsedbehind.blogspot.no/
.ORLY is recruiting
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