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Hal Morsh Aliastra Gallente Federation 367	Posted - 2015.08.03 21:06:26 - [31] - Quote **** it your argument makes sense. I'll just have to go to lowsec. I thought of it like a petty crime between players. Dun'Gal > Hal is simply an imperfect ai, though if drunkeness ever gets programmed into ai's I foresee both a hilarious and tragic end to humanity.
Do Little Red Frog Freight Red-Frog 70	Posted - 2015.08.03 21:08:09 - [32] - Quote A lot of people like high-sec the way it is. Given that 70% of players choose to spend most if not all of their time here, CCP must be doing something right. Every time I hear someone complain about high-sec - it always seems to be that life is too easy - it's harder to kill people. Well, if you want to kill people go to low or null or wormhole space. You have no right to expect kills to be handed to you on a silver platter. Industrial players pay their subscriptions and have just as much right to enjoy the game as you do. And don't worry about high-sec being too easy. As someone who flies freighters through Uedama and Niarga on a regular basis, I can assure you there is plenty of risk here.
Calima Arzi Alien Ruffneck Force Ignes Immortalis 0	Posted - 2015.08.04 15:06:04 - [33] - Quote 'They removed PVP from highsec exploration.' They removed PvP from highsec data and relic sites, where the loot is basically worthless. They did not remove PvP from highsec combat sites, where the loot can be worth tens, even hundreds of millions. If you want PvP in your highsec exploration, run combat sites, and contest those you find other pilots in.
Rhoxy Runekin Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque 5	Posted - 2015.08.04 16:48:26 - [34] - Quote To answer your initial question: That's the way it is.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 25490	Posted - 2015.08.04 17:21:03 - [35] - Quote Hal Morsh wrote: There is my argument, suspect status on exploration theft for the purpose of engaging in warfare with other players In highsec another way to PVP without wars. GÇªbut as mentioned, S-flags don't work that way so that can't actually happen. They are in every way wholly unsuited for creating wars. That's why I keep asking you to read up on them: because you are proposing stuff that works almost the exact opposite of how you want them to be, for reasons that have no basis in reality and only exist because you have misunderstood what the game has to offer. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
Vimsy Vortis Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation 2933	Posted - 2015.08.04 17:56:44 - [36] - Quote I think what the OP is trying to say is "I want people to be able to steal my loot so they go suspect so I can shoot them."
Darth Terona Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo 172	Posted - 2015.08.04 21:51:41 - [37] - Quote Haha. Back in the days.. It was only a mechanic of exploration for a blink of the eye.
Herzog Wolfhammer Sigma Special Tactics Group 6888	Posted - 2015.08.04 21:59:11 - [38] - Quote There's actually highsec exploration goodies worth fighting over? I've been away from exploration far too long. Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Orlacc 925	Posted - 2015.08.04 22:39:50 - [39] - Quote Asian? High sec is for scrub explorers. Period. "Measure Twice, Cut Once."
Hal Morsh Delusions of Granduer Two Drink Minimum 368	Posted - 2015.08.05 00:29:49 - [40] - Quote How about you stop telling me I dont know how suspect flags work and apply it to the damn situation. I have no time for trolls. I ask why suspect flag related combat was removed, and you get into this whole suspect flag, now your inciniating that my thoughts have no basis in reality?? Do you mean EVE? And then you go on to tell me I don't know eve. Discuss, don't troll. Dun'Gal > Hal is simply an imperfect ai, though if drunkeness ever gets programmed into ai's I foresee both a hilarious and tragic end to humanity.
Hal Morsh Delusions of Granduer Two Drink Minimum 368	Posted - 2015.08.05 00:44:21 - [41] - Quote Tippia wrote: I am trying to determine whether you are being dishonest about what you actually want to achieve, or if you're just not familiar enough with the game to understand the reasons for the design and repercussions of changing them. Without that information, discussing your idea becomes pointless. The question of flag ineptitude is for you to answer and establish, but has a huge impact on the validity of your complaint. The fact that you're using bogus reasons for your choices is worrying in and of itself, but at least that provides an implicit explanation for your request. And can anyone decipher this mess? You assume because I have not explained the ins and outs of S-flags that I do not know how they work? Then you come to conclusion after conclusion instead of awnsering a simple question. Dun'Gal > Hal is simply an imperfect ai, though if drunkeness ever gets programmed into ai's I foresee both a hilarious and tragic end to humanity.
Paranoid Loyd 6501	Posted - 2015.08.05 00:46:59 - [42] - Quote Hal Morsh wrote: Tippia wrote: am trying to determine whether you are being dishonest about what you actually want to achieve, or if you're just not familiar enough with the game to understand the reasons for the design and repercussions of changing them. Without that information, discussing your idea becomes pointless. The question of flag ineptitude is for you to answer and establish, but has a huge impact on the validity of your complaint. The fact that you're using bogus reasons for your choices is worrying in and of itself, but at least that provides an implicit explanation for your request. And can anyone decipher this mess? Deciphered "Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata Fix the Prospect!
Hal Morsh Delusions of Granduer Two Drink Minimum 368	Posted - 2015.08.05 00:49:21 - [43] - Quote Paranoid Loyd wrote: Hal Morsh wrote: Tippia wrote: am trying to determine whether you are being dishonest about what you actually want to achieve, or if you're just not familiar enough with the game to understand the reasons for the design and repercussions of changing them. Without that information, discussing your idea becomes pointless. The question of flag ineptitude is for you to answer and establish, but has a huge impact on the validity of your complaint. The fact that you're using bogus reasons for your choices is worrying in and of itself, but at least that provides an implicit explanation for your request. And can anyone decipher this mess? Deciphered I'm ignorant? Tippia wrote: Hal Morsh wrote: There is my argument, suspect status on exploration theft for the purpose of engaging in warfare with other players In highsec another way to PVP without wars. GÇªbut as mentioned, S-flags don't work that way so that can't actually happen. They are in every way wholly unsuited for creating wars. That's why I keep asking you to read up on them: because you are proposing stuff that works almost the exact opposite of how you want them to be, for reasons that have no basis in reality and only exist because you have misunderstood what the game has to offer. See what happened there? At this point instead of discussing Tippia is going to repeatedly reply to my posts with more roundabout ways to "NOT" awnser the questions. Dun'Gal > Hal is simply an imperfect ai, though if drunkeness ever gets programmed into ai's I foresee both a hilarious and tragic end to humanity.
Paranoid Loyd 6501	Posted - 2015.08.05 00:54:30 - [44] - Quote Tippia doesn't explain things in plain english, he wants you to think for yourself. He is saying that you lack a proper understanding of the mechanics to make the argument you are making. I tend to agree. "Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata Fix the Prospect!
Hal Morsh Delusions of Granduer Two Drink Minimum 368	Posted - 2015.08.05 00:56:33 - [45] - Quote Paranoid Loyd wrote: Tippia doesn't explain things in plain english, he wants you to think for yourself. He is saying that you lack a proper understanding of the mechanics to make the argument you are making. I tend to agree. You too? Really? I used to harass miners with suspect status to lure in fights. I killed an orca by pulling some suspect status and a bit of luck. I at least understand how to use it. There Tippia. I understand the basics of suspect status. Now, back to the topic. Why was suspect removed from highsec sites. Dun'Gal > Hal is simply an imperfect ai, though if drunkeness ever gets programmed into ai's I foresee both a hilarious and tragic end to humanity.
Paranoid Loyd 6501	Posted - 2015.08.05 00:58:30 - [46] - Quote And I've flown through null sec with an interceptor and didn't get caught in any bubbles, does that mean I fully understand bubble mechanics? "Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata Fix the Prospect!
Hal Morsh Delusions of Granduer Two Drink Minimum 368	Posted - 2015.08.05 01:02:12 - [47] - Quote Hal Morsh wrote: I understand the BASICS of suspect status. Now, back to the topic. Paranoid Loyd wrote: And I've flown through null sec with an interceptor and didn't get caught in any bubbles, does that mean I FULLY UNDERSTAND bubble mechanics? I'm done. Go away. Dun'Gal > Hal is simply an imperfect ai, though if drunkeness ever gets programmed into ai's I foresee both a hilarious and tragic end to humanity.
Unezka Turigahl Det Som Engang Var 874	Posted - 2015.08.05 04:59:21 - [48] - Quote Why would anyone want to fight over the worthless junk in hisec data/relic sites anyway? Why don't you go run the combat sites where the loot is worth stealing? Or even anomalies. I started up a trial account to see what it's like to be a noob these days. On day one I was stealing anomaly loot from noobs in destoryers, using my Merlin (not in noob systems of course!!!). I could actually make them retreat, that was surprising. I was expecting to get torn apart. Too bad I didn't train warp disruption yet, I've got it trained now though. :) I've also stolen Dread Guristas loot from Ishtars and stuff with this nooby Merlin pilot. Calima Arzi wrote: If you want PvP in your highsec exploration, run combat sites, and contest those you find other pilots in. ^ Had a tango with this explorer once, in a hisec site, using this character.
Calima Arzi Alien Ruffneck Force Ignes Immortalis 1	Posted - 2015.08.05 10:55:51 - [49] - Quote Unezka Turigahl wrote: ^ Had a tango with this explorer once, in a hisec site, using this character. Hint: it didn't go well for me. gf btw Unezka :)
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative. 16820	Posted - 2015.08.05 11:16:33 - [50] - Quote Hal Morsh wrote: Tippia wrote: I am trying to determine whether you are being dishonest about what you actually want to achieve, or if you're just not familiar enough with the game to understand the reasons for the design and repercussions of changing them. Without that information, discussing your idea becomes pointless. The question of flag ineptitude is for you to answer and establish, but has a huge impact on the validity of your complaint. The fact that you're using bogus reasons for your choices is worrying in and of itself, but at least that provides an implicit explanation for your request. And can anyone decipher this mess? You assume because I have not explained the ins and outs of S-flags that I do not know how they work? Then you come to conclusion after conclusion instead of awnsering a simple question. He is saying that it appears that you don't know enough about how the mechanics you're discussing actually operate to make useful suggestions about them. "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
Owen Levanth Sagittarius Unlimited Exploration 402	Posted - 2015.08.05 12:22:55 - [51] - Quote Gully Alex Foyle wrote: Hal Morsh wrote: What i'm saying is I can't compete against Russians camping gates or a bunch of roaming drunk brits. So removing places to compete with similar minded PVP incompetents is upsetting. +1 this made me laugh My first ever kill (100% luck, btw) was a hilarious highsec deathmatch between two month-old wannabe mission baiters/pvp noobs. Neither of us even had a point I think... That would never had happened in lowsec, where our cute t1-fit t1-cruisers would have very probably been put out of their misery 1 or 2 jumps in from highsec, before even meeting. Oh, it does happen. My first and to date only kill was when I suicided a t1-Caracal into a duo of assault frigates in LowSec. My setup actually lived long enough to kill one of them. Too bad I exploded immediately after, but at least this time I didn't forget to switch my tank on. If you use the in-game map (and DOTLAN of course) correctly, you can move through Low and Null with impunity. OK, occasionally you blow up, but that's the nature of the game.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 25506	Posted - 2015.08.05 14:12:38 - [52] - Quote Hal Morsh wrote: I'm ignorant? Yes. You seem to not understand how S-flagging works. Your idea centres around including S-flagging. You have been given the resources to fix this problem, as well as the perceived problem you're complaining about. You seem not to have done anything to address these issues. This leaves you ignorant. Quote: See what happened there? Yes. You kept trying to argue for the use of S-flagging in yet another instance where it is wholly unsuited, because you still don't understand how it works. You keep suggesting something that isn't necessary (because it's already in the game and your suggestion offers no meaningful improvement to anything), and when asked why, the only reason you can vaguely hint at is one that boils down to you wanting more advantages than the ones offered to you already. What you want already exists, but without those advantages, so here you are, apparently asking for things to be skewed in your favour. So we have one of two possibilities here: either you don't understand why your request is one for more advantages, in which case you need to educate yourself about the mechanics before trying to argue about them, or you're lying about not seeing the advantages and are being dishonest about why you want your proposed change to happen. Your case is uninformed or dishonest GÇö neither works in favour of your idea. Quote: Discuss, don't troll. If I loot a yellow wreck the same thing happens to me as another person looting another yellow colored wreck. Is there something I am missing? That's my point exactly: until you learn the mechanics, you are only trolling because your ideas have no basis in actual mechanics and there is nothing to be discussed. What you're missing has been mentioned already: that the engagement parameters for the different parties in an S-flagging situation are vastly different; that by design and intent, it explicitly does not GÇ£work both waysGÇ¥. If you understood the mechanics, you would know this. Having been experienced S-flaggin does not mean you have the prerequisite understanding, and your notion that it works the same for both sides amply proves this. Thus we arrive at the repeated suggestion that you read up on how flagging works under CrimeWatch 2.0. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
Remiel Pollard Black Hydra Consortium. CODE. 6743	Posted - 2015.08.05 14:51:13 - [53] - Quote Hal Morsh wrote: Why was suspect removed from highsec sites. Wut? When did this happen? I was suspect baiting in high sec sites about five minutes ago, logged off and was checking the forums before I went to bed and came across this silly thread. I started at the latest post and moved up, and found you claiming you know something about suspect status in high sec, and asking this question at the same time. I'm sorry, but if you're asking this, you don't really know as much as you think you do. Tippia's right, you are ignorant, and choosing to remain ignorant instead of learning something here makes you wilfully ignorant. I'm not trying to offend or insult you, that's just objective reality. Look mate, I've had my share of shiny kills while flashing yellow as well. I still remember this one Navy Apoc.... anyway, point is, CODE always wins. GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥ - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Terminal Insanity Pwn 'N Play Black Legion. 800	Posted - 2015.08.05 18:37:02 - [54] - Quote Hal Morsh wrote: Why are we trying to make the game easymode here? This. Its really sad. I fell in love with eve after my 2nd day in, when i followed autopilot though rancer, and was outright ganked, taunted in local and all my ** stolen. Eve is one of the very VERY FEW games in existance that actually have ruthless PVP. The only other games that come close to it are old MUDs, and maybe Neverwinter Nights on one or two custom servers. Its sad that this is now changing, to appeal to an audience that already has a plethora of games available to them. And those of us who flocked to eve because of its ruthless nature are now being replaced by players who would be better suited to Hello Kitty Online. What made eve successful in the first place? it was the brutal pvp. The lawless nature of space. Now that is slowly being replaced, because the devs want to appeal to more gamers. But is it working? I see average of 20k players online now. I remember years ago it was 30-40k. I dont think taking an old brutal game and putting diapars on it is going to make it more successful. You should appeal to the audience that made eve successful to begin with. Not change the core game to appeal to a whole different demographic. Keep eve brutal, and appeal to the WOW-types with the new games you're making, like Valkyrie or GunJack "War declarations are never officially considered griefing and are not a bannable offense, and it has been repeatedly stated by the developers that the possibility for non-consensual PvP is an intended feature.**" - CCP
kes88 Swords of Persephone 105	Posted - 2015.08.05 18:38:02 - [55] - Quote Pretty much agreeing with everyone but the OP here. CCP should change it because it annoys...just you? I don't think so. Spew loot was pretty much my biggest irritation with EVE ever, I'm glad that bloody thing is gone. Plus I think the main reason you are having issues with the way it is is because you can't compete against us lot who can nip through a site before you''ve said Bob's your mother's brother. It's not your loot just because you arrived on the site before another pilot. That's just how it works. PVP isn't "gone from Hi sec" at all. Never heard such a load of nonsense. Just because it doesn't work the way you want personally doesn't mean a) anyone has to agree with you and b) that it's broken. If this really gets up your nose, you SHOULD try exploring in low. I've made a hell of a lot more isk exploring in low than in hi, AND it's much more exciting. I am genuinely not trying to tell you how to play - what I'm getting at is that you should stop getting angry that this one thing has changed and instead find other ways to exploit the situation to your advantage. You never know, you might actually enjoy it. Edited for spelling
Terminal Insanity Pwn 'N Play Black Legion. 800	Posted - 2015.08.05 18:40:59 - [56] - Quote kes88 wrote: Pretty much agreeing with everyone but the OP here. CCP should change it because it annoys...just you? The complaint isnt that he wants CCP to CHANGE it for him. The complaint is CCP has already been CHANGING it for YOU. It was never this flowery. It was never supposed to be. Imagine if the Quake or COD devs changed their games to require an agreement before entering into combat with another player. And then people like you showed up and told all the old players they need to stop trying to change the game to suit them. lol. "War declarations are never officially considered griefing and are not a bannable offense, and it has been repeatedly stated by the developers that the possibility for non-consensual PvP is an intended feature." - CCP
Austneal 5th Fleet Bilgewaters 46	Posted - 2015.08.05 18:44:25 - [57] - Quote Terminal Insanity wrote: It was never this flowery. It was never supposed to be. Amen
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 25514	Posted - 2015.08.05 18:47:59 - [58] - Quote Terminal Insanity wrote: Its sad that this is now changing, to appeal to an audience that already has a plethora of games available to them. And those of us who flocked to eve because of its ruthless nature are now being replaced by players who would be better suited to Hello Kitty Online. But that's just it: nothing has really changed here. The OP is just confused about how flagging works, how exploration works (and has historically worked), how competition works, and just generally how these professions work as a whole. There was a very brief overlap between two unrelated systems that made exploration behave abnormally; now it's back to how it has always been and when you come down to it, it's actually the OP that is asking for things to be made easymode by virtue of what it is he wants to change. There is exactly one detail where the PvP might not entirely be what it should be, but it's not one that the OP wants to see fixed (maybe because changing it would be bad for him) nor is it really one that matters for the overall competitive aspect of the content. I'd be shocked if he could actually figure out which one it isGÇª Meanwhile, his complaint GÇö and consequently your rant of approval GÇö demonstrate a shock lack of understanding of the topic he's trying to talk about. You are (hopefully accidentally) complaining that things are pretty much what they've always been, and you are supporting an OP that wants to change them into easymode. Quote: The complaint isnt that he wants CCP to CHANGE it for him. The complaint is CCP has already been CHANGING it for YOU. You got that one backwards. The complaint is that CCP has change things back so that a particular easymode version of PvP is no longer available to him. He does want CCP to change it in his favour, and he seems to be absolutely clueless about what was actually changed to begin with. It was always this harsh, and he wants to make it more flowery. He might not fully understand this (nor you, seeing as how you seem to not notice the difference between what kes88 and the OP are focusing on), but that is the actual effect of what he's asking for. If you want to talk about some historical GÇ£lost old styleGÇ¥ of EVE, then you cannot rationally agree with the OP's stance because that's not what he's looking for. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
kes88 Swords of Persephone 105	Posted - 2015.08.05 18:55:47 - [59] - Quote Terminal Insanity wrote: kes88 wrote: Pretty much agreeing with everyone but the OP here. CCP should change it because it annoys...just you? The complaint isnt that he wants CCP to CHANGE it for him. The complaint is CCP has already been CHANGING it for YOU. It was never this flowery. It was never supposed to be. Imagine if the Quake or COD devs changed their games to require an agreement before entering into combat with another player. And then people like you showed up and told all the old players they need to stop trying to change the game to suit them. lol. You're quite right, apologies. It sounded like a whinge for change rather than just a whinge. I don't think CCP changed it for me in particular though. I still stand by the observation that he would enjoy EVE more if he used the mechanics available now rather than whinged that he preferred the old ones.
Yossarian Toralen M and M Enterpises 44	Posted - 2015.08.05 18:59:11 - [60] - Quote I'm confused about this thread so I would like to ask a couple of questions: Can you access another persons hacked can from a data/relic site in highsec if you have you have your saftey settings at the correct level? Is this a "I couldn't get an easy kill so something must be done about it" thread? Is it really a problem if you can't ninja loot data/relic goodies in highsec? I know you can definately ninja loot in a combat site in highsec, had a 4 day old toon get away with 120mill worth of goodies from a site I completed a month or so ago (I webbed him instead of scram), I applauded his efforts when I found out how old the toon was.

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