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Hal Morsh Aliastra Gallente Federation 365	Posted - 2015.08.03 15:01:55 - [1] - Quote Back in the days of loot spew exploration people could show up and steal your goodies, but you could also shoot them with their suspect status. Nowadays it's a container you just loot, what makes me angry is if you did not hack it YOU CANNOT OPEN IT! Why are we trying to make the game easymode here? I had ships specifically to nab anyone who bothered to loot from me after some asian did so whilst I was unarmed and stuck around a bit because he figured I was unarmed. I would say let people adapt? Instead of just forcing easymode. Therre wer two other explorers in two highsec sites. I had prepared to scram them if they tried, the thing is it looked like one of them tried multiple times, because he zoomes to the can I was hacking instead of an empty one more than once. Afterwords I tried to open someone elses hacked can and it only tells me I need specalized equipment, but wont let me hack an already hacked can. You also cannot hack a can already being hacked, so now it's down to everything else where they likely expect you to gank if you want to do anything about it, and you can't prepare for anyone who might steal from you becauuuse??? They can't. Are you just planning on slowly removing suspect status altogether? Dun'Gal > Hal is simply an imperfect ai, though if drunkeness ever gets programmed into ai's I foresee both a hilarious and tragic end to humanity.
Tam Arai Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation 34	Posted - 2015.08.03 15:05:55 - [2] - Quote shoot them after they have looted
Hal Morsh Aliastra Gallente Federation 365	Posted - 2015.08.03 15:06:48 - [3] - Quote Tam Arai wrote: shoot them after they have looted You can't. CCP changed it where you cannot loot the cans if you weren't the hacker. Dun'Gal > Hal is simply an imperfect ai, though if drunkeness ever gets programmed into ai's I foresee both a hilarious and tragic end to humanity.
Tipa Riot Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 1152	Posted - 2015.08.03 15:10:46 - [4] - Quote Hal Morsh wrote: Tam Arai wrote: shoot them after they have looted You can't. CCP changed it where you cannot loot the cans if you weren't the hacker. So you cannot shoot anyone because they cannot go suspect. Leave highsec. Anyway you can still do suspect baiting, bumping them, stealing from highsec cans is pointless profit-wise. I'm my own NPC alt.
Nana Skalski Poseidaon 514	Posted - 2015.08.03 15:11:38 - [5] - Quote There is plenty of loot to steal in other places. ( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 25445	Posted - 2015.08.03 15:12:27 - [6] - Quote Hal Morsh wrote: You also cannot hack a can already being hacked, so now it's down to everything else where they likely expect you to gank if you want to do anything about it, and you can't prepare for anyone who might steal from you becauuuse??? They can't. So what's the problem? Since they can't steal from you, there's no need prepare for it, and there's not really anything to GÇ£do anything aboutGÇ¥. If they beat you to the loot, then theyGÇª wellGÇª beat you to the loot, so it's obviously theirs because they earned it GÇö they're not stealing from you. Hal Morsh wrote: Tam Arai wrote: shoot them after they have looted You can't. Yes you can. Just switch your safety to red. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
Hal Morsh Aliastra Gallente Federation 365	Posted - 2015.08.03 15:17:58 - [7] - Quote Tippia wrote: if they beat you to the loot, then theyGÇª wellGÇª beat you to the loot, so it's obviously theirs because they earned it What if I told you I was the one getting the loot? Because I earned it? So should the mission runners deserve the faction rats they killed because..... "they earned it"? The speed of being the first to plant your hacking module down is not the issue. CCP keeps padding highsec so the min/maxers can't hurt themselfs. Dun'Gal > Hal is simply an imperfect ai, though if drunkeness ever gets programmed into ai's I foresee both a hilarious and tragic end to humanity.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 25445	Posted - 2015.08.03 15:24:28 - [8] - Quote Hal Morsh wrote: What if I told you I was the one getting too the loot? Because I earned it? Then nothing. It still doesn't explain what the problem is or why you're talking about theft. Quote: The speed of things is not the issue. CCP keeps padding highsec so the min/maxers can't hurt themselfs. The speed of things is the entire issue. You're competing in a mini-profession centred on who's quicker on the ball GÇö he who gets the goods first gets the goods and any theft is self-imposed. CCP has made it consistent with similar professions, where theft also is a non-issue. If they're slow, you beat them by opening up more cans (or just more sites) while they're struggling with their one. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
Switch Savage The Tuskers The Tuskers Co. 171	Posted - 2015.08.03 15:26:44 - [9] - Quote Isn't the loot you get from those HS sites worth almost nothing? I know that's slightly besides the point...
Hal Morsh Aliastra Gallente Federation 365	Posted - 2015.08.03 15:32:55 - [10] - Quote Tippia wrote: Hal Morsh wrote: What if I told you I was the one getting too the loot? Because I earned it? Then nothing. It still doesn't explain what the problem is or why you're talking about theft. Quote: The speed of things is not the issue. CCP keeps padding highsec so the min/maxers can't hurt themselfs. The speed of things is the entire issue. You're competing in a mini-profession centred on who's quicker on the ball GÇö he who gets the goods first gets the goods and any theft is self-imposed. CCP has made it consistent with similar professions, where theft also is a non-issue. If they're slow, you beat them by opening up more cans (or just more sites) while they're struggling with their one. In low or null, the only thing people show up to your site for is to blow you up, and if you happen to have a faction blueprint they loot that. In highsec you can't just shoot people, but there was the option of theft. Which changes things quite a bit, fits go for max scanning and max hacking in stead of being prepared to blow up the other explorer if he gets greedy. People find out they can't steal from someone with better hacking and can't be faster than otherwise. The only option then is to give up right? For some reason CCP sees to remove any middle ground. You either commit an act that gets you indefinitely Concorded or nothing at all. Dun'Gal > Hal is simply an imperfect ai, though if drunkeness ever gets programmed into ai's I foresee both a hilarious and tragic end to humanity.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 25447	Posted - 2015.08.03 15:41:46 - [11] - Quote Hal Morsh wrote: In low or null, the only thing people show up to your site for is to blow you up, and if you happen to have a faction blueprint they loot that. In highsec you can't just shoot people, but there was the option of theft. Setting aside that you can still just shoot peopleGÇª yes? So? That's highsec: aggression comes at a cost and you are making a bet that other people's miserliness is enough to keep them from shooting you. As it happens, the loot from highsec mini-profession sites is generally so poor that it keeps that miserliness threshold high. Quote: Which changes things quite a bit, fits go for max scanning and max hacking in stead of being prepared to blow up the other explorer if he gets greedy. People find out they can't steal from someone with better hacking and can't be faster than otherwise. The only option then is to give up right? The option to blow them up is still there. The option to be faster is still there. The option to pick a different can is still there. If you choose to do nothing, then yes, the option to give up is the one ~~left~~ you've chosen, but that's a pretty worthless tautology. Unless you go for the highly effective wardec option, your competition within the profession is a matter of your ability within the profession GÇö same as with the other harvesting activities. What's so problematic about that? GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
Marcus Alexzander 4	Posted - 2015.08.03 15:44:17 - [12] - Quote Leave Hi-Sec. You can do everything you are talking about and more in low/null. And they keep padding Hi-sec because, when you get down to it, Hi-sec is basically the starter zone. I am the prophet of the blood god! Let the stars of New Eden burn!
Hal Morsh Aliastra Gallente Federation 365	Posted - 2015.08.03 17:22:20 - [13] - Quote Someone was willing to steal my loot and I was willing to try and blow him up. Now isn't that called content? I just don't see why the mechanic of theft couldn't have stayed. Dun'Gal > Hal is simply an imperfect ai, though if drunkeness ever gets programmed into ai's I foresee both a hilarious and tragic end to humanity.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 25448	Posted - 2015.08.03 17:35:23 - [14] - Quote Hal Morsh wrote: Someone was willing to steal my loot and I was willing to try and blow him up. Now isn't that called content? I just don't see why the mechanic of theft couldn't have stayed. Because it's not particularly necessary and because it breaks the mould of how the harvesting professions work. Also, if that's the content you're after, you can still have it. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
Harrison Tato Yamato Holdings 469	Posted - 2015.08.03 17:40:12 - [15] - Quote Hal Morsh wrote: Back in the days of loot spew exploration people could show up and steal your goodies, but you could also shoot them with their suspect status. Nowadays it's a container you just loot, what makes me angry is if you did not hack it YOU CANNOT OPEN IT! Why are we trying to make the game easymode here? I had ships specifically to nab anyone who bothered to loot from me after some asian did so whilst I was unarmed and stuck around a bit because he figured I was unarmed. I would say let people adapt? Instead of just forcing easymode. There were two other explorers in two highsec sites. I had prepared to scram them if they tried, the thing is it looked like one of them tried multiple times, because he zoomed to the cans I was hacking instead of an empty one more than once. Afterwords I tried to open someone elses hacked can and it only tells me I need specalized equipment, but wont let me hack an already hacked can. You also cannot hack a can already being hacked, so now it's down to everything else where they likely expect you to gank if you want to do anything about it, and you can't prepare for anyone who might steal from you becauuuse??? They can't. Are you just planning on slowly removing suspect status altogether? Stop making highsec safer in the dumbest of ways. When exploration GETS crowded, fighting between each other for the loot is one way to take care of things, but uhm no.... We can't. I thought you could shoot anyone in null or lowsec?
Vincent Athena V.I.C.E. 3558	Posted - 2015.08.03 17:43:50 - [16] - Quote Please also remember the reason the loot spew went away: Most all explorers hated it. Not due to theft, but because it was annoying. Know a Frozen fan? Check this out Frozen fanfiction
Hallvardr 72	Posted - 2015.08.03 18:02:15 - [17] - Quote OP ... as others have said .. you're the one stealing (wanting to)... you shoot them and take what's left. Unless .. you're the one crying for easymode .. ah .. that's it .. YOU want the easy mode.
Hal Morsh Aliastra Gallente Federation 366	Posted - 2015.08.03 18:45:37 - [18] - Quote Hallvardr wrote: OP ... as others have said .. you're the one stealing (wanting to)... you shoot them and take what's left. Unless .. you're the one crying for easymode .. ah .. that's it .. YOU want the easy mode. How is it me wanting the easy mode? They only put themselfs in that place by stealing, and it's not an often situation to begin with. I would also need an alt for the easymode you speak of. Concord will still kill you for 15 minutes before you can bother trying to loot it. Dun'Gal > Hal is simply an imperfect ai, though if drunkeness ever gets programmed into ai's I foresee both a hilarious and tragic end to humanity.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 25449	Posted - 2015.08.03 18:52:14 - [19] - Quote Hal Morsh wrote: How is it me wanting the easy mode? Rather than seeking out the kind of environment you're talking about, you want fights to happen where everything is set up in your favour. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
Hal Morsh Aliastra Gallente Federation 366	Posted - 2015.08.03 19:01:44 - [20] - Quote Tippia wrote: Hal Morsh wrote: How is it me wanting the easy mode? Rather than seeking out the kind of environment you're talking about, you want fights to happen where everything is set up in your favour. But how would it be my favor? It works both ways. Dun'Gal > Hal is simply an imperfect ai, though if drunkeness ever gets programmed into ai's I foresee both a hilarious and tragic end to humanity.
Hal Morsh Aliastra Gallente Federation 366	Posted - 2015.08.03 19:13:48 - [21] - Quote They have added exploration content throughout the game, also increasing what you can get from highsec, including through wormholes to easy null exploration sites within, but things added in highsec with any player conflict in suspect status removed. Ghost sites don't add a way for players to clash outside of wardecs. They just blow you up if your ship isn't well tanked enough or if you weren't fast enough at fleeing in a smaller ship, no player conflicts.. Ways for people to put themselfs at risk for a peice of someone elses stuff shouldn't be removed. If that were the case why do tractor units cause suspect? That would be easymode too right? if I bump someone off the unit and kill it isn't that around the same level as exploration theft? If so why have one and not the other? Dun'Gal > Hal is simply an imperfect ai, though if drunkeness ever gets programmed into ai's I foresee both a hilarious and tragic end to humanity.
Austneal 5th Fleet Bilgewaters 46	Posted - 2015.08.03 19:22:03 - [22] - Quote I agree with the OP. Highsec has been hit with a very large PvP nerfbat lately, which makes the game a bit of a pain to play without being able to devote half of your life + your first born child to it. Just my opinion (and call me a scrub if you will) but I had unsubbed after feeling more and more like I'm being pushed into low / null. I've just recently re-subbed to see if anything had been added that might make it bit more fun for me, and I'm saddened to see that its only gone further towards "easy mode" Someone with a grudge or a good threat used to be enough cause fear... now the only thing to fear are suicide gankers (and bumpers, if you're a miner)
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 25449	Posted - 2015.08.03 19:46:10 - [23] - Quote Hal Morsh wrote: But how would it be my favor? Because of how S-flagging works. You do understand how S-flaggin works, right, and how the engagement parameters for the two parties are vastly different GÇö i.e. that it very explicitly and inherently does not GÇ£work both waysGÇ¥? You're just not asking for something that you've vaguely heard about and don't quite fully grasp the repercussions of? Quote: I can't really go to low or null Yes you can. There is literally nothing stopping you. It provides the kind of environment you're asking for (well, aside from it being skewed in your favour) and only you are keeping you from experiencing that environment for some reason. You don't need a wallet; you don't need alts; you don't need anything other than what you'd use in highsec. Beyond that, the scenario you're asking for actually requires those things more than what the existing environments would ask for you in the same situation. Quote: So any excitement where I live would be great. Stop blaming mechanics and go have some, then, assuming that's what you actually want. But that's not really what you're asking for GÇö you're asking for fights to happen entirely on your terms and with everything set up in your favour. That's not a particularly compelling reason to change anything. The excitement is there if you just start looking at the terms of the competition you're engaging in, and actively compete in it with the tools at your disposal. Combat is not particularly necessary to create any of that. Quote: What i'm saying is I can't compete against Russians camping gates or a bunch of roaming drunk brits. Good news: both are almost completely irrelevant to what you want to achieve. The GÇ£problemGÇ¥ you're having is a fabrication; it's something you've created for yourself, not something the game forces on you. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
Hal Morsh Aliastra Gallente Federation 366	Posted - 2015.08.03 20:06:38 - [24] - Quote I still don't see how suspect is in my favor. He steals, and he either gets away or I fight him. I steal, and either I get away or we fight. They removed PVP from highsec exploration. Competition for a site can't be settled between two in a site. You have to get someone to gank and someone to loot, in stead of the easier (for both parties) "I want your loot, but risk repercussions". Risk reward was fine. Do you really encourage ganking over two people trying to outdo each other with a PVP risk? An alt to gank and an alt to loot. Forget competion right? "Let's just get 2 accounts and blow them up, or not be involved" is not the better side of things. Dun'Gal > Hal is simply an imperfect ai, though if drunkeness ever gets programmed into ai's I foresee both a hilarious and tragic end to humanity.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 25450	Posted - 2015.08.03 20:19:30 - [25] - Quote Hal Morsh wrote: I still don't see how suspect is in my favor. Ok. Then you need to stop asking for it and go read up on how the different criminal flags work, in particular the details of who can do what to whom and under what circumstances. Before you do, you don't understand your own request and simply cannot contribute to the conversation. Quote: They removed PVP from highsec exploration. Competition for a site can't be settled between two in a site. You also need to go read up on what PvP means. No, they have not removed PvP from highsec exploration GÇö it is as much PvP as ever, and all you're showing is that you choose not to compete. Your decision to yield means that the competition has been settled in the site, so your second claim is instantly disproven even if it weren't obviously false to begin with. Again: you compete by being faster, better, by picking different cans, or, if it comes to that, by blowing the other guy up. Choosing GÇ£none of the aboveGÇ¥ does not mean there is no competition; it means you choose to forfeit. You lose, by choice and by default. What you want already exists. What you're asking for is tons of advantages for no good reason. What you're asking for also requires all the things you think are obstacles, whereas none of those requirements actually exist at the moment. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
Moth Eisig 106	Posted - 2015.08.03 20:32:58 - [26] - Quote Hal Morsh wrote: I can't really go to low or null because I don't have a huge wallet and an army of alts, and people really don't like it when you learn EVE on their killboards. One character and a covops frigate is all you need to make plenty of isk doing nullsec exploration. And then you can use that to pay for blowing up/losing ships wherever and against whomever you want. Nullsec's really not that scary as long as you put some effort into learning the ropes.
Hal Morsh Aliastra Gallente Federation 367	Posted - 2015.08.03 20:45:20 - [27] - Quote Tippia wrote: Because of how S-flagging works. You do understand how S-flaggin works, right, and how the engagement parameters for the two parties are vastly different GÇö i.e. that it very explicitly and inherently does not GÇ£work both waysGÇ¥? You're just not asking for something that you've vaguely heard about and don't quite fully grasp the repercussions of? Tippia wrote: Ok. Then you need to stop asking for it and go read up on how the different criminal flags work, in particular the details of who can do what to whom and under what circumstances. Before you do, you don't understand your own request and simply cannot contribute to the conversation. Trying to derail the topic and point it towards me by repeatedly throwing your opinion at "suspect flag ineptitude" means I am done with talking to you. Dun'Gal > Hal is simply an imperfect ai, though if drunkeness ever gets programmed into ai's I foresee both a hilarious and tragic end to humanity.
Gully Alex Foyle Black Fox Marauders Spaceship Bebop 4039	Posted - 2015.08.03 20:46:48 - [28] - Quote Hal Morsh wrote: What i'm saying is I can't compete against Russians camping gates or a bunch of roaming drunk brits. So removing places to compete with similar minded PVP incompetents is upsetting. +1 this made me laugh My first ever kill (100% luck, btw) was a hilarious highsec deathmatch between two month-old wannabe mission baiters/pvp noobs. Neither of us even had a point I think... That would never had happened in lowsec, where our cute t1-fit t1-cruisers would have very probably been put out of their misery 1 or 2 jumps in from highsec, before even meeting. Can't see any harm in allowing people to steal your data/relic can, if I correctly understood the mechanics the OP speaks of. Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Buoytender Bob Ronin Exploration Mission and Mining 53	Posted - 2015.08.03 20:55:09 - [29] - Quote You claim that "Asians", "Russians", and ""drunk Brits" are ruining hi-sec exploration or your EVE options? Perhaps the UN and not CCP should be asked to correct the problem. Tippia is correct To buck the popular trend, I began to Rage Start instead of Rage Quit. ...and every time I get another piece of Carbon, I know exactly what CCP is getting this Christmas.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 25450	Posted - 2015.08.03 21:01:19 - [30] - Quote Hal Morsh wrote: Trying to derail the topic No. Trying to make you understand what it is you're talking about. Without such an understanding, you don't even know what the rails in question look like. You are asking to be given huge advantages because you want to experience gameplay that is already available to you but which you choose not to engage in for bogus reasons. I am trying to determine whether you are being dishonest about what you actually want to achieve, or if you're just not familiar enough with the game to understand the reasons for the design and repercussions of changing them. Without that information, discussing your idea becomes pointless. The question of flag ineptitude is for you to answer and establish, but has a huge impact on the validity of your complaint. The fact that you're using bogus reasons for your choices is worrying in and of itself, but at least that provides an implicit explanation for your request. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
Hal Morsh Aliastra Gallente Federation 367	Posted - 2015.08.03 21:06:26 - [31] - Quote **** it your argument makes sense. I'll just have to go to lowsec. I thought of it like a petty crime between players. Dun'Gal > Hal is simply an imperfect ai, though if drunkeness ever gets programmed into ai's I foresee both a hilarious and tragic end to humanity.
Do Little Red Frog Freight Red-Frog 70	Posted - 2015.08.03 21:08:09 - [32] - Quote A lot of people like high-sec the way it is. Given that 70% of players choose to spend most if not all of their time here, CCP must be doing something right. Every time I hear someone complain about high-sec - it always seems to be that life is too easy - it's harder to kill people. Well, if you want to kill people go to low or null or wormhole space. You have no right to expect kills to be handed to you on a silver platter. Industrial players pay their subscriptions and have just as much right to enjoy the game as you do. And don't worry about high-sec being too easy. As someone who flies freighters through Uedama and Niarga on a regular basis, I can assure you there is plenty of risk here.
Calima Arzi Alien Ruffneck Force Ignes Immortalis 0	Posted - 2015.08.04 15:06:04 - [33] - Quote 'They removed PVP from highsec exploration.' They removed PvP from highsec data and relic sites, where the loot is basically worthless. They did not remove PvP from highsec combat sites, where the loot can be worth tens, even hundreds of millions. If you want PvP in your highsec exploration, run combat sites, and contest those you find other pilots in.
Rhoxy Runekin Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque 5	Posted - 2015.08.04 16:48:26 - [34] - Quote To answer your initial question: That's the way it is.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 25490	Posted - 2015.08.04 17:21:03 - [35] - Quote Hal Morsh wrote: There is my argument, suspect status on exploration theft for the purpose of engaging in warfare with other players In highsec another way to PVP without wars. GÇªbut as mentioned, S-flags don't work that way so that can't actually happen. They are in every way wholly unsuited for creating wars. That's why I keep asking you to read up on them: because you are proposing stuff that works almost the exact opposite of how you want them to be, for reasons that have no basis in reality and only exist because you have misunderstood what the game has to offer. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
Vimsy Vortis Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation 2933	Posted - 2015.08.04 17:56:44 - [36] - Quote I think what the OP is trying to say is "I want people to be able to steal my loot so they go suspect so I can shoot them."
Darth Terona Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo 172	Posted - 2015.08.04 21:51:41 - [37] - Quote Haha. Back in the days.. It was only a mechanic of exploration for a blink of the eye.
Herzog Wolfhammer Sigma Special Tactics Group 6888	Posted - 2015.08.04 21:59:11 - [38] - Quote There's actually highsec exploration goodies worth fighting over? I've been away from exploration far too long. Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Orlacc 925	Posted - 2015.08.04 22:39:50 - [39] - Quote Asian? High sec is for scrub explorers. Period. "Measure Twice, Cut Once."
Hal Morsh Delusions of Granduer Two Drink Minimum 368	Posted - 2015.08.05 00:29:49 - [40] - Quote How about you stop telling me I dont know how suspect flags work and apply it to the damn situation. I have no time for trolls. I ask why suspect flag related combat was removed, and you get into this whole suspect flag, now your inciniating that my thoughts have no basis in reality?? Do you mean EVE? And then you go on to tell me I don't know eve. Discuss, don't troll. Dun'Gal > Hal is simply an imperfect ai, though if drunkeness ever gets programmed into ai's I foresee both a hilarious and tragic end to humanity.
Hal Morsh Delusions of Granduer Two Drink Minimum 368	Posted - 2015.08.05 00:44:21 - [41] - Quote Tippia wrote: I am trying to determine whether you are being dishonest about what you actually want to achieve, or if you're just not familiar enough with the game to understand the reasons for the design and repercussions of changing them. Without that information, discussing your idea becomes pointless. The question of flag ineptitude is for you to answer and establish, but has a huge impact on the validity of your complaint. The fact that you're using bogus reasons for your choices is worrying in and of itself, but at least that provides an implicit explanation for your request. And can anyone decipher this mess? You assume because I have not explained the ins and outs of S-flags that I do not know how they work? Then you come to conclusion after conclusion instead of awnsering a simple question. Dun'Gal > Hal is simply an imperfect ai, though if drunkeness ever gets programmed into ai's I foresee both a hilarious and tragic end to humanity.
Paranoid Loyd 6501	Posted - 2015.08.05 00:46:59 - [42] - Quote Hal Morsh wrote: Tippia wrote: am trying to determine whether you are being dishonest about what you actually want to achieve, or if you're just not familiar enough with the game to understand the reasons for the design and repercussions of changing them. Without that information, discussing your idea becomes pointless. The question of flag ineptitude is for you to answer and establish, but has a huge impact on the validity of your complaint. The fact that you're using bogus reasons for your choices is worrying in and of itself, but at least that provides an implicit explanation for your request. And can anyone decipher this mess? Deciphered "Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata Fix the Prospect!
Hal Morsh Delusions of Granduer Two Drink Minimum 368	Posted - 2015.08.05 00:49:21 - [43] - Quote Paranoid Loyd wrote: Hal Morsh wrote: Tippia wrote: am trying to determine whether you are being dishonest about what you actually want to achieve, or if you're just not familiar enough with the game to understand the reasons for the design and repercussions of changing them. Without that information, discussing your idea becomes pointless. The question of flag ineptitude is for you to answer and establish, but has a huge impact on the validity of your complaint. The fact that you're using bogus reasons for your choices is worrying in and of itself, but at least that provides an implicit explanation for your request. And can anyone decipher this mess? Deciphered I'm ignorant? Tippia wrote: Hal Morsh wrote: There is my argument, suspect status on exploration theft for the purpose of engaging in warfare with other players In highsec another way to PVP without wars. GÇªbut as mentioned, S-flags don't work that way so that can't actually happen. They are in every way wholly unsuited for creating wars. That's why I keep asking you to read up on them: because you are proposing stuff that works almost the exact opposite of how you want them to be, for reasons that have no basis in reality and only exist because you have misunderstood what the game has to offer. See what happened there? At this point instead of discussing Tippia is going to repeatedly reply to my posts with more roundabout ways to "NOT" awnser the questions. Dun'Gal > Hal is simply an imperfect ai, though if drunkeness ever gets programmed into ai's I foresee both a hilarious and tragic end to humanity.
Paranoid Loyd 6501	Posted - 2015.08.05 00:54:30 - [44] - Quote Tippia doesn't explain things in plain english, he wants you to think for yourself. He is saying that you lack a proper understanding of the mechanics to make the argument you are making. I tend to agree. "Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata Fix the Prospect!
Hal Morsh Delusions of Granduer Two Drink Minimum 368	Posted - 2015.08.05 00:56:33 - [45] - Quote Paranoid Loyd wrote: Tippia doesn't explain things in plain english, he wants you to think for yourself. He is saying that you lack a proper understanding of the mechanics to make the argument you are making. I tend to agree. You too? Really? I used to harass miners with suspect status to lure in fights. I killed an orca by pulling some suspect status and a bit of luck. I at least understand how to use it. There Tippia. I understand the basics of suspect status. Now, back to the topic. Why was suspect removed from highsec sites. Dun'Gal > Hal is simply an imperfect ai, though if drunkeness ever gets programmed into ai's I foresee both a hilarious and tragic end to humanity.
Paranoid Loyd 6501	Posted - 2015.08.05 00:58:30 - [46] - Quote And I've flown through null sec with an interceptor and didn't get caught in any bubbles, does that mean I fully understand bubble mechanics? "Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata Fix the Prospect!
Hal Morsh Delusions of Granduer Two Drink Minimum 368	Posted - 2015.08.05 01:02:12 - [47] - Quote Hal Morsh wrote: I understand the BASICS of suspect status. Now, back to the topic. Paranoid Loyd wrote: And I've flown through null sec with an interceptor and didn't get caught in any bubbles, does that mean I FULLY UNDERSTAND bubble mechanics? I'm done. Go away. Dun'Gal > Hal is simply an imperfect ai, though if drunkeness ever gets programmed into ai's I foresee both a hilarious and tragic end to humanity.
Unezka Turigahl Det Som Engang Var 874	Posted - 2015.08.05 04:59:21 - [48] - Quote Why would anyone want to fight over the worthless junk in hisec data/relic sites anyway? Why don't you go run the combat sites where the loot is worth stealing? Or even anomalies. I started up a trial account to see what it's like to be a noob these days. On day one I was stealing anomaly loot from noobs in destoryers, using my Merlin (not in noob systems of course!!!). I could actually make them retreat, that was surprising. I was expecting to get torn apart. Too bad I didn't train warp disruption yet, I've got it trained now though. :) I've also stolen Dread Guristas loot from Ishtars and stuff with this nooby Merlin pilot. Calima Arzi wrote: If you want PvP in your highsec exploration, run combat sites, and contest those you find other pilots in. ^ Had a tango with this explorer once, in a hisec site, using this character.
Calima Arzi Alien Ruffneck Force Ignes Immortalis 1	Posted - 2015.08.05 10:55:51 - [49] - Quote Unezka Turigahl wrote: ^ Had a tango with this explorer once, in a hisec site, using this character. Hint: it didn't go well for me. gf btw Unezka :)
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative. 16820	Posted - 2015.08.05 11:16:33 - [50] - Quote Hal Morsh wrote: Tippia wrote: I am trying to determine whether you are being dishonest about what you actually want to achieve, or if you're just not familiar enough with the game to understand the reasons for the design and repercussions of changing them. Without that information, discussing your idea becomes pointless. The question of flag ineptitude is for you to answer and establish, but has a huge impact on the validity of your complaint. The fact that you're using bogus reasons for your choices is worrying in and of itself, but at least that provides an implicit explanation for your request. And can anyone decipher this mess? You assume because I have not explained the ins and outs of S-flags that I do not know how they work? Then you come to conclusion after conclusion instead of awnsering a simple question. He is saying that it appears that you don't know enough about how the mechanics you're discussing actually operate to make useful suggestions about them. "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
Owen Levanth Sagittarius Unlimited Exploration 402	Posted - 2015.08.05 12:22:55 - [51] - Quote Gully Alex Foyle wrote: Hal Morsh wrote: What i'm saying is I can't compete against Russians camping gates or a bunch of roaming drunk brits. So removing places to compete with similar minded PVP incompetents is upsetting. +1 this made me laugh My first ever kill (100% luck, btw) was a hilarious highsec deathmatch between two month-old wannabe mission baiters/pvp noobs. Neither of us even had a point I think... That would never had happened in lowsec, where our cute t1-fit t1-cruisers would have very probably been put out of their misery 1 or 2 jumps in from highsec, before even meeting. Oh, it does happen. My first and to date only kill was when I suicided a t1-Caracal into a duo of assault frigates in LowSec. My setup actually lived long enough to kill one of them. Too bad I exploded immediately after, but at least this time I didn't forget to switch my tank on. If you use the in-game map (and DOTLAN of course) correctly, you can move through Low and Null with impunity. OK, occasionally you blow up, but that's the nature of the game.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 25506	Posted - 2015.08.05 14:12:38 - [52] - Quote Hal Morsh wrote: I'm ignorant? Yes. You seem to not understand how S-flagging works. Your idea centres around including S-flagging. You have been given the resources to fix this problem, as well as the perceived problem you're complaining about. You seem not to have done anything to address these issues. This leaves you ignorant. Quote: See what happened there? Yes. You kept trying to argue for the use of S-flagging in yet another instance where it is wholly unsuited, because you still don't understand how it works. You keep suggesting something that isn't necessary (because it's already in the game and your suggestion offers no meaningful improvement to anything), and when asked why, the only reason you can vaguely hint at is one that boils down to you wanting more advantages than the ones offered to you already. What you want already exists, but without those advantages, so here you are, apparently asking for things to be skewed in your favour. So we have one of two possibilities here: either you don't understand why your request is one for more advantages, in which case you need to educate yourself about the mechanics before trying to argue about them, or you're lying about not seeing the advantages and are being dishonest about why you want your proposed change to happen. Your case is uninformed or dishonest GÇö neither works in favour of your idea. Quote: Discuss, don't troll. If I loot a yellow wreck the same thing happens to me as another person looting another yellow colored wreck. Is there something I am missing? That's my point exactly: until you learn the mechanics, you are only trolling because your ideas have no basis in actual mechanics and there is nothing to be discussed. What you're missing has been mentioned already: that the engagement parameters for the different parties in an S-flagging situation are vastly different; that by design and intent, it explicitly does not GÇ£work both waysGÇ¥. If you understood the mechanics, you would know this. Having been experienced S-flaggin does not mean you have the prerequisite understanding, and your notion that it works the same for both sides amply proves this. Thus we arrive at the repeated suggestion that you read up on how flagging works under CrimeWatch 2.0. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
Remiel Pollard Black Hydra Consortium. CODE. 6743	Posted - 2015.08.05 14:51:13 - [53] - Quote Hal Morsh wrote: Why was suspect removed from highsec sites. Wut? When did this happen? I was suspect baiting in high sec sites about five minutes ago, logged off and was checking the forums before I went to bed and came across this silly thread. I started at the latest post and moved up, and found you claiming you know something about suspect status in high sec, and asking this question at the same time. I'm sorry, but if you're asking this, you don't really know as much as you think you do. Tippia's right, you are ignorant, and choosing to remain ignorant instead of learning something here makes you wilfully ignorant. I'm not trying to offend or insult you, that's just objective reality. Look mate, I've had my share of shiny kills while flashing yellow as well. I still remember this one Navy Apoc.... anyway, point is, CODE always wins. GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥ - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Terminal Insanity Pwn 'N Play Black Legion. 800	Posted - 2015.08.05 18:37:02 - [54] - Quote Hal Morsh wrote: Why are we trying to make the game easymode here? This. Its really sad. I fell in love with eve after my 2nd day in, when i followed autopilot though rancer, and was outright ganked, taunted in local and all my ** stolen. Eve is one of the very VERY FEW games in existance that actually have ruthless PVP. The only other games that come close to it are old MUDs, and maybe Neverwinter Nights on one or two custom servers. Its sad that this is now changing, to appeal to an audience that already has a plethora of games available to them. And those of us who flocked to eve because of its ruthless nature are now being replaced by players who would be better suited to Hello Kitty Online. What made eve successful in the first place? it was the brutal pvp. The lawless nature of space. Now that is slowly being replaced, because the devs want to appeal to more gamers. But is it working? I see average of 20k players online now. I remember years ago it was 30-40k. I dont think taking an old brutal game and putting diapars on it is going to make it more successful. You should appeal to the audience that made eve successful to begin with. Not change the core game to appeal to a whole different demographic. Keep eve brutal, and appeal to the WOW-types with the new games you're making, like Valkyrie or GunJack "War declarations are never officially considered griefing and are not a bannable offense, and it has been repeatedly stated by the developers that the possibility for non-consensual PvP is an intended feature.**" - CCP
kes88 Swords of Persephone 105	Posted - 2015.08.05 18:38:02 - [55] - Quote Pretty much agreeing with everyone but the OP here. CCP should change it because it annoys...just you? I don't think so. Spew loot was pretty much my biggest irritation with EVE ever, I'm glad that bloody thing is gone. Plus I think the main reason you are having issues with the way it is is because you can't compete against us lot who can nip through a site before you''ve said Bob's your mother's brother. It's not your loot just because you arrived on the site before another pilot. That's just how it works. PVP isn't "gone from Hi sec" at all. Never heard such a load of nonsense. Just because it doesn't work the way you want personally doesn't mean a) anyone has to agree with you and b) that it's broken. If this really gets up your nose, you SHOULD try exploring in low. I've made a hell of a lot more isk exploring in low than in hi, AND it's much more exciting. I am genuinely not trying to tell you how to play - what I'm getting at is that you should stop getting angry that this one thing has changed and instead find other ways to exploit the situation to your advantage. You never know, you might actually enjoy it. Edited for spelling
Terminal Insanity Pwn 'N Play Black Legion. 800	Posted - 2015.08.05 18:40:59 - [56] - Quote kes88 wrote: Pretty much agreeing with everyone but the OP here. CCP should change it because it annoys...just you? The complaint isnt that he wants CCP to CHANGE it for him. The complaint is CCP has already been CHANGING it for YOU. It was never this flowery. It was never supposed to be. Imagine if the Quake or COD devs changed their games to require an agreement before entering into combat with another player. And then people like you showed up and told all the old players they need to stop trying to change the game to suit them. lol. "War declarations are never officially considered griefing and are not a bannable offense, and it has been repeatedly stated by the developers that the possibility for non-consensual PvP is an intended feature." - CCP
Austneal 5th Fleet Bilgewaters 46	Posted - 2015.08.05 18:44:25 - [57] - Quote Terminal Insanity wrote: It was never this flowery. It was never supposed to be. Amen
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 25514	Posted - 2015.08.05 18:47:59 - [58] - Quote Terminal Insanity wrote: Its sad that this is now changing, to appeal to an audience that already has a plethora of games available to them. And those of us who flocked to eve because of its ruthless nature are now being replaced by players who would be better suited to Hello Kitty Online. But that's just it: nothing has really changed here. The OP is just confused about how flagging works, how exploration works (and has historically worked), how competition works, and just generally how these professions work as a whole. There was a very brief overlap between two unrelated systems that made exploration behave abnormally; now it's back to how it has always been and when you come down to it, it's actually the OP that is asking for things to be made easymode by virtue of what it is he wants to change. There is exactly one detail where the PvP might not entirely be what it should be, but it's not one that the OP wants to see fixed (maybe because changing it would be bad for him) nor is it really one that matters for the overall competitive aspect of the content. I'd be shocked if he could actually figure out which one it isGÇª Meanwhile, his complaint GÇö and consequently your rant of approval GÇö demonstrate a shock lack of understanding of the topic he's trying to talk about. You are (hopefully accidentally) complaining that things are pretty much what they've always been, and you are supporting an OP that wants to change them into easymode. Quote: The complaint isnt that he wants CCP to CHANGE it for him. The complaint is CCP has already been CHANGING it for YOU. You got that one backwards. The complaint is that CCP has change things back so that a particular easymode version of PvP is no longer available to him. He does want CCP to change it in his favour, and he seems to be absolutely clueless about what was actually changed to begin with. It was always this harsh, and he wants to make it more flowery. He might not fully understand this (nor you, seeing as how you seem to not notice the difference between what kes88 and the OP are focusing on), but that is the actual effect of what he's asking for. If you want to talk about some historical GÇ£lost old styleGÇ¥ of EVE, then you cannot rationally agree with the OP's stance because that's not what he's looking for. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
kes88 Swords of Persephone 105	Posted - 2015.08.05 18:55:47 - [59] - Quote Terminal Insanity wrote: kes88 wrote: Pretty much agreeing with everyone but the OP here. CCP should change it because it annoys...just you? The complaint isnt that he wants CCP to CHANGE it for him. The complaint is CCP has already been CHANGING it for YOU. It was never this flowery. It was never supposed to be. Imagine if the Quake or COD devs changed their games to require an agreement before entering into combat with another player. And then people like you showed up and told all the old players they need to stop trying to change the game to suit them. lol. You're quite right, apologies. It sounded like a whinge for change rather than just a whinge. I don't think CCP changed it for me in particular though. I still stand by the observation that he would enjoy EVE more if he used the mechanics available now rather than whinged that he preferred the old ones.
Yossarian Toralen M and M Enterpises 44	Posted - 2015.08.05 18:59:11 - [60] - Quote I'm confused about this thread so I would like to ask a couple of questions: Can you access another persons hacked can from a data/relic site in highsec if you have you have your saftey settings at the correct level? Is this a "I couldn't get an easy kill so something must be done about it" thread? Is it really a problem if you can't ninja loot data/relic goodies in highsec? I know you can definately ninja loot in a combat site in highsec, had a 4 day old toon get away with 120mill worth of goodies from a site I completed a month or so ago (I webbed him instead of scram), I applauded his efforts when I found out how old the toon was.
Akirei Scytale Okami Syndicate 3544	Posted - 2015.08.05 19:13:16 - [61] - Quote Hal Morsh wrote: Tam Arai wrote: shoot them after they have looted You can't. CCP changed it where you cannot loot the cans if you weren't the hacker. So you cannot shoot anyone because they cannot go suspect. Well, there's your problem - you're in highsec and complaining about not being able to shoot someone you want to shoot.
Salvos Rhoska 1200	Posted - 2015.08.05 19:19:30 - [62] - Quote Some way to steal would be good, same as in Combat sigs. ------------
kes88 Swords of Persephone 105	Posted - 2015.08.05 19:31:53 - [63] - Quote Yossarian Toralen wrote: I'm confused about this thread so I would like to ask a couple of questions: Can you access another persons hacked can from a data/relic site in highsec if you have you have your saftey settings at the correct level? Is this a "I couldn't get an easy kill so something must be done about it" thread? Is it really a problem if you can't ninja loot data/relic goodies in highsec? I know you can definately ninja loot in a combat site in highsec, had a 4 day old toon get away with 120mill worth of goodies from a site I completed a month or so ago (I webbed him instead of scram), I applauded his efforts when I found out how old the toon was. To answer your first, I have not tried it but I imagine you can't access a can someone else is hacking, regardless of safety settings. But I haven't played eve much recently, so maybe wait until another explorer comments on this one. To answer your second question, yes. Yes it is. To answer you third question, no. No it isn't. Hi sec exploration is worth absolute peanuts anyway, which is why even if the OP could have his mechanics the way he wanted them, nobody would even bother.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 25515	Posted - 2015.08.05 20:08:56 - [64] - Quote Yossarian Toralen wrote: I'm confused about this thread so I would like to ask a couple of questions: Can you access another persons hacked can from a data/relic site in highsec if you have you have your saftey settings at the correct level? Is this a "I couldn't get an easy kill so something must be done about it" thread? Is it really a problem if you can't ninja loot data/relic goodies in highsec? I know you can definately ninja loot in a combat site in highsec, had a 4 day old toon get away with 120mill worth of goodies from a site I completed a month or so ago (I webbed him instead of scram), I applauded his efforts when I found out how old the toon was. 1. No. Once you activate a can by hacking/analysing it, no-one else can use their modules on it and you are also blocked from accessing cans until you, personally, unlock them. So a claimed can cannot be accessed at all. 2. Yes. That's the essence of the demand for s-flagging. He wants to go back to the very brief anomalous period when we had a combination of loot spew (an almost universally detested game mechanic) and S-flagging for accessing those spew cans so he can pick and choose which targets to go after (and have every advantage against), rather than go find fights in less restricted areas of space where he can't dictate the terms of the engagement. 3. Not particularly, since the content is almost worthless. It might be good for babbys first exploration, before the character has the skills to take on combat sites, but that's about it. This also puts #2 in a different lightGÇª Historically, you couldn't really do it either since you didn't own the cans to begin with, and while there might be some argument for allowing multiple competing hacks, that's pretty much as it was before too: whomever got to the can first got the loot unless their skills were appalling. The main difference is that it used to be a matter of SP-skills; now it's a matter of GÇ£not clicking poorlyGÇ¥ skills. The actual PvP element of these sites GÇö finding them first and being the first to reach a given can GÇö are the same as always, and theft and combat are now back to where they've pretty much always been. Salvos Rhoska wrote: Some way to steal would be good, same as in Combat sigs. Conceivably, but you have to remember what type of content we're talking about. This is a harvesting (mini)profession and doesn't work any differently in terms of theft than its cousins mining and salvaging. There, too, ownership is immediate and the only way to steal anything is to blow up whomever beat you to the goods and hope there's anything left in the wreck. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
Yossarian Toralen M and M Enterpises 44	Posted - 2015.08.05 20:32:12 - [65] - Quote Thanks for clearing that up. To the OP, there is many ways to get a PVP fix without baiting newbros trying to scrape a few isks together, there are many entries to lowsec that aren't camped 24/7 and if you want to get fights, head to lowsec and ask around for a scrap, you will get one no matter what you bring and if you do it correctly you might even get a fair 1v1. I've noticed it seems to be Asians, Russians and drunk Brits that you are falling victim to, you could always try the US tz, they never put up a fight, hehe.
Salvos Rhoska 1200	Posted - 2015.08.05 22:13:43 - [66] - Quote Tippia wrote: Conceivably, but you have to remember what type of content we're talking about. Yes, you need to remember that, as you currently aren't. Don't take this condescending tone with me, young lady. Tippia wrote: This is a harvesting (mini)profession and doesn't work any differently in terms of theft than its cousins mining and salvaging. There, too, ownership is immediate and the only way to steal anything is to blow up whomever beat you to the goods and hope there's anything left in the wreck. False. In mining the resource can be accessed concurrently. In salvaging everyone can salvage concurrently. In combat sigs everyone can access the drop. In exploration, only one person can access the resource. So you are completely wrong. Your notion could "conceivably" work, if asteroids/ICE, data/relic cores could also be blown up. ------------
Hal Morsh Delusions of Granduer Two Drink Minimum 370	Posted - 2015.08.05 23:42:57 - [67] - Quote Tippia wrote: But that's just it: nothing has really changed here. The OP is just confused about how flagging works, how exploration works (and has historically worked) Tippia wrote: 2. Yes. That's the essence of the demand for s-flagging. He wants to go back to the very brief anomalous period when we had a combination of loot spew (an almost universally detested game mechanic) and S-flagging for accessing those spew cans Keep going. It wasn't anomalous either. Dun'Gal > Hal is simply an imperfect ai, though if drunkeness ever gets programmed into ai's I foresee both a hilarious and tragic end to humanity.
McChicken Combo HalfMayo The Happy Meal 982	Posted - 2015.08.06 00:48:24 - [68] - Quote Hal Morsh wrote: I can't really go to low or null because I don't have a huge wallet and an army of alts I do think you should be able to open other people's hacked containers though. Sounds like content to me. There are all our dominion Gate camps: "Its like the lowsec watercooler, just with explosions and boose" - Ralph King-Griffin
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 2340	Posted - 2015.08.06 01:15:25 - [69] - Quote Vincent Athena wrote: Please also remember the reason the loot spew went away: Most all explorers hated it. Not due to theft, but because it was annoying. Loot spew was actually removed because it had failed at it's aim of causing more co-operation in sites since people knew what to cherry pick to get the good loot solo anyway. If it had achieved that goal it likely would have been left despite the extra annoyance, So for the op, its that way because there is no point screwing over 99% of players for the 1% who might use the ability to steal. Not with a twitch based rsi inducing mechanic anyway.
Remiel Pollard Black Hydra Consortium. CODE. 6744	Posted - 2015.08.06 01:51:46 - [70] - Quote Yossarian Toralen wrote: Is it really a problem if you can't ninja loot data/relic goodies in highsec? Actually, yes, it is. Banditry is a heavily advertised form of gameplay for this game, and there's no reason why an explorer can't do their hacking in a ship capable of killing bandits, especially considering most ninja looters are going to be in ninja ships. Which are usually no more than a T1 attack frigate with room for cargo. It's not about 'easy kills', it's about the dog-eat-dog nature of EVE. GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥ - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Hal Morsh Delusions of Granduer Two Drink Minimum 370	Posted - 2015.08.06 02:47:07 - [71] - Quote Nevyn Auscent wrote: Vincent Athena wrote: Please also remember the reason the loot spew went away: Most all explorers hated it. Not due to theft, but because it was annoying. Loot spew was actually removed because it had failed at it's aim of causing more co-operation in sites since people knew what to cherry pick to get the good loot solo anyway. If it had achieved that goal it likely would have been left despite the extra annoyance, So for the op, its that way because there is no point screwing over 99% of players for the 1% who might use the ability to steal. Not with a twitch based rsi inducing mechanic anyway. Me as a newbie and a bunch of newbie corp mates used to group up for exploration, we would have people doing roles like hacking or cargo and a guy for combat protection. Later on I was in a highsec site with 2 or 3 other neutral players, and some Asian started nabbing my cans from the spew after I hacked it, turning him yellow. Course he teased me because I was in an imicus setup for exploration only. Ever since then I started fitting a hack ship capable of scramming and some combat delegating the scanning role to another fit. But now things have changed and there is no point for that. I assume the system was supposed to be learnable with material containers, data containers and scrap containers, there were like 5 or 6 different types. CCP made it more simplistic now but EVE has always been min/maxed. I am thinking the old system worked because you didn't "know" if you were going to get what you wanted for your first can, so stealing a bunch threw you in risk trying to beat the hacker. You would have to sit around yellow even after cargo scanning the container to attempt at his goodies, but with just a loot able container someone could open it and loot all then quickly leaving. Headaches for CCP when people complain. Which is why I assume they removed suspect as well. Dun'Gal > Hal is simply an imperfect ai, though if drunkeness ever gets programmed into ai's I foresee both a hilarious and tragic end to humanity.
Yang Aurilen The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 748	Posted - 2015.08.06 03:51:29 - [72] - Quote As expected from someone who is in Two LOSSES minimum. You guys just plain suck at the game. Looks like FW is too hard for you and decided to do exploration. PS all your problem is in your head. Post with your NPC alt main and not your main main alt!
Salvos Rhoska 1203	Posted - 2015.08.06 08:38:51 - [73] - Quote 1) If multiple players could hack the node simultaneously, with the fastest to complete getting the loot transfer, that at least would bring in some competition on-site (no suspect timer opportunities though). 2) If the loot was ejected in a single can in a random direction, at high velocity, that too would include some competition and a suspect timer opportunity. Chasing a single can atleast is not a lot of twitch. ------------
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 25523	Posted - 2015.08.06 09:15:49 - [74] - Quote Salvos Rhoska wrote: False. Nope. You're just confusing two completely separate modes of competition. Quote: In mining the resource can be accessed concurrently. In salvaging everyone can salvage concurrently. In combat sigs everyone can access the drop. In exploration, only one person can access the resource. GÇªbut that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about theft, which isn't possible in any of the harvesting professions. So again, conceivably, a way to steal would be good, but that would be out of character compared to the other content of the same category. Ownership is immediate; theft is not an option GÇö this is consistent across all harvesting. Quote: Your notion could "conceivably" work, if asteroids/ICE, data/relic cores could also be blown up, as can for example the ship with loot on it in a combat sig. But they can't, so it isn't. It was your notion, remember? And yes, that's pretty much the reason why it doesn't work that way. Quote: If multiple players could hack the node simultaneously, with the fastest to complete getting the loot transfer, that at least would bring in some competition on-site (no suspect timer opportunities though). There is already some competition on-site. It's just not centred on the hacking mini-game. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 25523	Posted - 2015.08.06 09:21:55 - [75] - Quote Hal Morsh wrote: It wasn't anomalous either. Yes it was, per Salvos' description above, and per the very brief overlap of two the two systems. Quote: Later on I was in a highsec site with 2 or 3 other neutral players, and some Asian started nabbing my cans from the spew after I hacked it, turning him yellow. Course he teased me because I was in an imicus setup for exploration only. Ever since then I started fitting a hack ship capable of scramming and some combat delegating the scanning role to another fit. But now things have changed and there is no point for that. GÇªand that just returns us to the question of: yes? So what? What's the problem you're trying to solve? Exploration has been returned to a regular state of not allowing theft and not being a good vehicle for newbie baiting. Why should it change? Quote: I assume the system was supposed to be learnable with material containers, data containers and scrap containers, there were like 5 or 6 different types. CCP made it more simplistic now but EVE has always been min/maxed. I am thinking the old system worked because you didn't "know" if you were going to get what you wanted for your first can, so stealing a bunch threw you in risk trying to beat the hacker. GÇªexcept that you pretty much always knew what you were going to get (indeed, that was part of the reasoning they used to advocate loot spew), and that the complexity turned out to not add anything useful. It was just predictable complexity for its own sake, which is just pointless busywork. Its intended purpose failed to materialise, at which point it became a bad design, as all pointless busywork always is. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
Salvos Rhoska 1203	Posted - 2015.08.06 09:41:22 - [76] - Quote There is no reason why some more competition on HS mechanics in terms of exploration would not be a good thing (doesnt affect other sec, cos they have different systemic rules of engagement) As is already shown and echoed by many other posters, HS exploration loot is worth piddly squat to begin with. Inorder to improve the quality of the loot, the relative difficulty of aquiring them needs to be adjusted. The way to do that, is by including more systemic competition in the actual mechanics of the nodes and getting loot from them. The volume of players actually engaged in it is a secondary result of these factors, as is the value of the loot a result of other changes saturating the market. As I pointed out, with all other harvesting mechanics, the resource is universally accessible concurrently with other players. Everyone can mine the same asteroid. Everyone can salvage the same wreck. In exploration, the competition is superficial and amounts only to who reaches the node first. The equivalent in mining or salvaging would be that as soon as you engage salvage/mining the asteroid/wreck becomes exclusively yours, which is obviously not the case. Adding more elements of healthy competition is always a good thing. In the comparative example of combat sigs, the rush of competing for the loot is great and contributes greatly to the experience, as is the last resort option of simply destroying the wreck before the competition reaches it. ------------
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 25523	Posted - 2015.08.06 09:54:26 - [77] - Quote Salvos Rhoska wrote: Adding more elements of healthy competition is always a good thing. Sure, but remember, that's not actually what the OP is asking for. He wants to be given combat right in a newbie-centred profession, in a way such that he is given all the advantages, rather than engage in the versions of the same profession where that kind of player opposition already exists (but where he won't necessarily get those advantages)GÇª I was fishing for the OP to discover on his own what part of his GÇ£issueGÇ¥ that made some minor sense (as opposed to the non-issue he's having) but now you spoiled it. Quote: Despite Tippias claims, I never referred to anything as "anomalous", nor was there anything anomalous about how the node mechanics have been changed. No idea where she got that from. You amply demonstrated how consistent the lack of a GÇ£stealableGÇ¥ object is. The anomaly in question is the very brief overlap between the period when one existed and when that theft generated system-wide aggression rights. Quote: Tippia has attempted to falsely misdirect the notion of "theft" here as to taking something from someones cargo hold. No. It is neither false, nor a misdirection. It is exactly what the thread is about. I am talking about theft, because the OP wants to have theft-triggered S-flags handed out to his opposition. You keep going off on the strawman tangent about how there could be more access, as if someone had actually said otherwise. The idea that it has anything to do with cargo holds is entirely your invention and you have fundamentally and completely misunderstood what I'm actually talking about. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
Salvos Rhoska 1203	Posted - 2015.08.06 10:05:19 - [78] - Quote I am not beholden to what OP is asking for. I am not him. You are not him. And you are misrepresenting him. He hss not asked for combat rights. Going suspect is NOT a combat right for the suspect. Only for others to engage him. Im surprised youndidnt know that. He asked for a way to compete for the loot outside of simply reaching the node first. Nor is exploration universally a "newbie centered profession", as you generalize. Its universally practiced by players old and new. The only exception here being how it happens in HS due to a different set of rules of engagement. Moving the goal posts is not conducive to construcrive discussion. I amply demonstrated that your claim that other harvesting professions are the same was false. Miners/Salvagers/CombatSig all have competition mechanics beyond simply reaching a node and tapping it. There never was an "anomalous" period. That has been only your term, from your mouth. There was a sequence of changes which ran through different iterations of intent, each of which worked as intended for the time they existed. ------------
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 25523	Posted - 2015.08.06 10:13:31 - [79] - Quote Salvos Rhoska wrote: I am not beholden to what OP is asking for. GÇªbut you are beholden to what's actually said when you quote something and say that it is GÇ£falseGÇ¥. When I talk about theft, and you maniacally jump in and yell GÇ£falseGÇ¥, only to immediately turn around and talk about something completely unrelated to GÇ£proveGÇ¥ that its GÇ£falseGÇ¥, then you are creating a strawman. Quote: And you are misrepresenting him. He hss not asked for combat rights. Yes he is. Read it again. He very explicitly wants it to be possible for others to steal from him so they get S-flags so he can pick and choose whom to attack (along with the slew of advantages it brings to be the wronged party in a suspect situation). Quote: Nor is exploration universally a "newbie centered profession", as you generalize. We are talking about highsec relic and data sites GÇö very much newbie centred content. As everyone has been pointing out, there is nothing universal about them, which is why the question has been raised why he's not pursuing content that already works the way he wants? Quote: Moving the goal posts is not conducive to construcrive discussion. Then stop doing so. And stop being a sleeper representative of the straw council in how many strawmen you erect. Quote: There never was an "anomalous" period. That has been only your term, from your mouth. GÇªaside from the period just described, when theft was possible (which is anomalous in and of itself) and gave hugely advantageous aggression rights. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 2343	Posted - 2015.08.06 10:13:35 - [80] - Quote The only consistent way to 'compete for the node' would be to able to both play the minigame at the same time also. However that turns EVE into a clickspam twitch game of how fast can you click nodes and what your ping is, which is not what EVE is about. Being able to loot the can would be even sillier, as that would be even more a twitch fest ping dependant game. So, please propose a non loot spew, non twitch/ping fest mechanic. And it 'might' have some merit if you can actually devise a suitable mechanic.
Salvos Rhoska 1203	Posted - 2015.08.06 10:22:29 - [81] - Quote Nevyn Auscent wrote: The only consistent way to 'compete for the node' would be to able to both play the minigame at the same time also. However that turns EVE into a clickspam twitch game of how fast can you click nodes and what your ping is, which is not what EVE is about. Being able to loot the can would be even sillier, as that would be even more a twitch fest ping dependant game. So, please propose a non loot spew, non twitch/ping fest mechanic. And it 'might' have some merit if you can actually devise a suitable mechanic. Agreed and well said. Notable though that it would only be twitch spam if there is a competitor. Most of the time it would be only you at your leisure in HS where the loot is ** (which indirectly is actually a result of relic/data nodes not having conpetition except the superficial of who reaches it first. Its not rational to improve the loot quality without adding more competition or difficulty to the task). Im ambivalent on S-timer. Its not a requirement to raise competition on HS relic/data nodes, though I do think it offers more sandbox and options. So lets brainstorm a way to add more competition to HS data/relic nodes (which would also justify better loot, even noobs dont bother with relic sigs which litter HS), in a way that doesnt off the twitch-impaired, doesnt overcomplicate, and may or may not include suspect timer options to liven things up a bit also for new players in HS. ------------**
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 25523	Posted - 2015.08.06 10:31:01 - [82] - Quote Salvos Rhoska wrote: So lets brainstorm a way to add more competition to HS data/relic nodes (which would also justify better loot), in a way that doesnt **** off the twitch-impaired, doesnt overcomplicate, and may or may not include suspect timer options to liven things up a bit also for new players in HS. Sudoku puzzles with a .5 char/s typing speed limit? The easiest solution would of course be a return to the old module-timer based hacking, but that was so marginally different from GÇ£just be first on the canGÇ¥ that it's not really a useful alternative. It was also boring. More seriously, that question seems to boil down to GÇ£minigame or no minigame?GÇ¥ Any competitive minigame will by necessity be twitch-based: complete it the most quickly and win. On the other hand, without a a minigame, how would you construct a GÇ£competitionGÇ¥ in a meaningful way such that it doesn't just turn right back into being a question of getting to the can first? GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
Salvos Rhoska 1203	Posted - 2015.08.06 10:52:57 - [83] - Quote An interactive minigame where you hack the same matrix from opposite ends gainst a competitor when they analyze the node you are on would have been great, but since this only really applies to HS where you cant simply blow the competition up, its too much to expect CCP to bother with. Two options I see are either: -Multiple players can analyze node, and whoever completes first, wins. Skills/builds augment this. -A simplified loot spew system of 1-2 cans, where the original tapper has rights, and thief goes suspect if they nab it first. The s-timer is necessary in this case, or otherwise the original tapper has no way to engage the thief. As has been said, and agreed, this is specific to HS. And also has been said, and to which I agree, in HS its a noob activity. But I firmly think increased competition by means of either of the above would liven up the game also for these players positively so they feel some thrill in HS too. Also, increasing competition/risk is the necessary compromise to make the loot more desirable, or HS exploration may become as dead as HS combat anoms and ratting. I dont know figures of how many HS explorers there are, but I do see that HS data sites ARE being cleared regularly as I pass through systems again looking for combat sigs, so there is a substantial demand. Relic sites however... Even noobs soon learn to skip them. ------------
Unezka Turigahl Det Som Engang Var 874	Posted - 2015.08.06 12:05:34 - [84] - Quote Salvos Rhoska wrote: HS exploration may become as dead as HS combat anoms and ratting. HS anoms are not dead at all. They are farmed big time for a ridiculous number of private 4/10s and 5/10s to run in hisec. It is completely broken. There is no point to actually scanning for 4/10s in hisec when you can just spam hideaways and refuges to get bookmarks to your own private little sites. CCP needs to make hideaways give 3/10 expeditions, not 4/10. And they need to reduce the chances of escalation. They should also add a third room to the 4/10 so that it takes longer to complete, allowing for a higher chance of being scanned down by other players. Another option would be to turn expedition 4/10s and 5/10s into normal scannable signatures as soon as a player activates the gate. (maybe make it happen in hisec only)
Salvos Rhoska 1204	Posted - 2015.08.06 12:21:12 - [85] - Quote Unezka Turigahl wrote: Salvos Rhoska wrote: HS exploration may become as dead as HS combat anoms and ratting. HS anoms are not dead at all. They are farmed big time for a ridiculous number of private 4/10s and 5/10s to run in hisec. It is completely broken. There is no point to actually scanning for 4/10s in hisec when you can just spam hideaways and refuges to get bookmarks to your own private little sites. CCP needs to make hideaways give 3/10 expeditions, not 4/10. And they need to reduce the chances of escalation. They should also add a third room to the 4/10 so that it takes longer to complete, allowing for a higher chance of being scanned down by other players. Another option would be to turn expedition 4/10s and 5/10s into scannable signatures as soon as a player activates the gate. I see your point, and I always run combat anoms while simultaneously probing for combat sigs in that system for exactly this reason (and to allay a bit of boredom in HS and hear my guns fire and stuff exploding). Ive been away for a bit and dont know if occurance of escalations has changed, but ive not had many as of yet. If they are as frequent as you say, I agree with you, as the bread and butter of high sec combat exploration is in the sigs in safe space anyways and very (perhaps too) lucrative. Depending on where you operate, they can be more efficient than following escalation chains down long paths that require time and refits. On the otherhand, its great that escalations tempt players out of HS past LS thresholds. Good points, but perhaps a matter for another thread, as this one is one HS data/relic nodes and how/if to make them more competetive. ------------
Cypherous Liberty Rogues Aprilon Dynasty 157	Posted - 2015.08.06 12:25:28 - [86] - Quote Hal Morsh wrote: Now, back to the topic. Why was suspect removed from highsec sites. Because loot spew was removed and because it really serves no purpose, as has been pointed out you compete by hacking faster or by being there first, do you think industrialists compete with suspect timers? do you think miners compete with suspect timers? do you think incursion runners compete with suspect timers? You know where this is going :P
Salvos Rhoska 1205	Posted - 2015.08.06 12:41:06 - [87] - Quote Cypherous wrote: You know where this is going :P Would it be bad if HS data/relic sites where more competetive? We already know that relic sites are ignored, and data site profits are low. We can accept that as the status quo, or we can find a way to offset better loot with more competition. Do you see what I mean? Atm, making HS data drops better would result in more traffic, but not more inherent competition actually at the node. Basically, more people would farm HS data, and true, create more competition between themselves. But dont you think its rather boring at HS data sites? One person will almost always arrive before the other, and there is no direct competition except analyzing the nodes left at the site. Wouldnt it be more interesting and engaging if you can race to analyze the same node faster thatn your competitor? Wouldnt it be more exciting to either suspect the competition will try to steal the 1can spew and you can then attack them, or inversely to steal the can and hope you are attacked? I dont think either of these detracts from the current system. Instead, it improves it in ways that matter, and can also justify better drops. See what I mean? ------------
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 25523	Posted - 2015.08.06 12:44:43 - [88] - Quote Salvos Rhoska wrote: Cypherous wrote: You know where this is going :P Would it be bad if HS data/relic sites where more competetive? What does that have to do with anything he said? Really, I have to ask, what is it with your fascination to ask completely unrelated and tangential questions to people who aren't discussing the same thing you are? GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
Salvos Rhoska 1206	Posted - 2015.08.06 13:20:37 - [89] - Quote Whats wrong with asking an interested party: "Would it be bad if HS data/relic sites where more competetive?" Nothing. Its a begnign, simple and open question. He can answer however he wants. Also, note I addressed it to him, not you. If I want to ask you something, I will refer to you by name. Its also the core question of the thread, or atleast my own position in it. ------------
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 25524	Posted - 2015.08.06 13:24:20 - [90] - Quote Salvos Rhoska wrote: Whats wrong with asking an interested party: "Would it be bad if HS data/relic sites where more competetive?" It's off-topic. Now, I understand that you really want to discuss the structure, nature, and means of competition in highsec exploration, and that's an interesting topic, but it's a topic for a different thread. Maybe you should start one. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
Salvos Rhoska 1206	Posted - 2015.08.06 13:37:45 - [91] - Quote Would it be bad if HS data/relic sites were more competetive? And yes I really want to discuss the structure, nature and means of competitive HS exploration, (which I have demonstrated and done rather than try to complicatr individual posters in irrelevant rhetoric) all of which is pertinent and germane to OPs position as I see it. I think OP would agree with me. Tippia, my dear, despite years of effort, you still are not a mod. You dont have the authority to delineate what is ontopic and what isnt. If you dont like my posts, nobody is forcing you to twist your knickers on them, especially as they are not even addressed to you. ------------
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 25525	Posted - 2015.08.06 13:43:58 - [92] - Quote Salvos Rhoska wrote: Would it be bad if HS data/relic sites were more competetive? Excellent question, but not really the topic of this thread. The topic of this thread is, to quote the OP: Hal Morsh wrote: Now, back to the topic. Why was suspect removed from highsec sites. Salvos Rhoska wrote: You dont have the authority to delineate what is ontopic and what isnt. Yes I do, by virtue of being able to read what the OP GÇö the one who created the topic GÇö says the topic is. It's not what you want it to be, which is why I'm suggesting that maybe a new thread on your preferred topic is in order. We've even tried to suggest this to the OP, but he just goes back to wanting to talk about his precious theft-triggered S-flags. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
Salvos Rhoska 1206	Posted - 2015.08.06 13:59:33 - [93] - Quote Your entire line of argument and attack is entirely off-topic. And I think that is deliberate on your part. The topic is not to discuss whether its content is off-topic, which is the only thing you are doing. Catch 22 there, my dear Tippia. My reading of OPs topic differs from yours, and I maintain it is germane and relevant to my own question in this thread: Would it be bad if HS data/relic sites were more competetive? OPs position obviously is he would want s-timer theft mechanics reinstated, so he agrees with this question as per his OP, and hence is relevant to it. TLDR: The person shouting at others that they are off-topic, is infact themselves demonstrably persistently off-topic. ------------
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 25525	Posted - 2015.08.06 14:06:53 - [94] - Quote Salvos Rhoska wrote: My reading of OPs topic differs from yours So when the OP says Hal Morsh wrote: Now, back to the topic. Why was suspect removed from highsec sites. GÇªyou read that as him asking about competition GÇö a word that appears nowhere in his description of the topic or in the OP GÇö rather than suspect flagging GÇö something that appears in almost every post he makes. That would explain a lot of the problems you're having with actually responding to what people say rather than to your feverish and wholly inaccurate dreams of what you wish they were saying. There's a reason why I keep saying that you should stay away from the strawmen, you know. It's because you are utterly and completely incapable of not making them because you are very obviously functionally illiterate and have to make up nonsense to respond to on your own. Quote: Would it be bad if HS data/relic sites were more competetive? What does that have to do with s-flagging? And why do you keep asking about a position that no-one in the thread holds (since it's not really a part of the topic)? Why can't you keep on topic or just create a thread that discusses what you want to discuss? The button is right there; just click that one insteadGÇª why is that so difficult for you? GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
Austneal 5th Fleet Bilgewaters 47	Posted - 2015.08.06 14:21:21 - [95] - Quote Tippia wrote: Salvos Rhoska wrote: My reading of OPs topic differs from yours So when the OP says Hal Morsh wrote: Now, back to the topic. Why was suspect removed from highsec sites. GÇªyou read that as him asking about competition GÇö a word that appears nowhere in his description of the topic or in the OP GÇö rather than suspect flagging GÇö something that appears in almost every post he makes. That would explain a lot of the problems you're having with actually responding to what people say rather than to your feverish and wholly inaccurate dreams of what you wish they were saying. There's a reason why I keep saying that you should stay away from the strawmen, you know. It's because you are utterly and completely incapable of not making them because you are very obviously functionally illiterate and have to make up nonsense to respond to on your own. Quote: Would it be bad if HS data/relic sites were more competetive? What does that have to do with s-flagging? And why do you keep asking about a position that no-one in the thread holds (since it's not really a part of the topic)? Why can't you keep on topic or just create a thread that discusses what you want to discuss? The button is right there; just click that one insteadGÇª why is that so difficult for you? You're both off topic. In before lock
Salvos Rhoska 1211	Posted - 2015.08.06 14:29:12 - [96] - Quote Tippia, after all these years, still pretending to be a moderator. Me stating my reading of OPs position and core concern is not strawman, anymore than your attempt to frame your own reading of it is. We interpret it differently. I dont dispute ypur interpretation, but when all ypu do is yell "off topic" it rrally begs the question what you think you are achieving. You must be great fun at parties yelling "off topic" at everyone around you :) As a demonstrable result of your actions, this thread for the last two pages is you yelling "off-topic", when I have contributed and discussed specifically ontopic on the germane issues with several independant posters. My question is simple, and related to OP. Would it be so bad if HS data/relic nodes where more competetive? This does not preclude OPs position that s-timers would be required. I have said directly that I am ambivalent on that, and have presented 2 options on how to make it more competetive, and outlined at length why more competetion would be a good thing. Your best was some Sudoku model. Hmm... ------------
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 25525	Posted - 2015.08.06 14:45:30 - [97] - Quote Salvos Rhoska wrote: Tippia, after all these years, still pretending to be a moderator. No. Still just demonstrating at least a level basic literacy, unlike you. Quote: Me stating my reading of OPs position and core concern is not strawman I didn't say it was. That's just you reading what you want to read rather than what's actually written. Quote: My question is simple, and related to OP. Your question is simple, at best tangential to the OP, and ultimately pointless since you're questioning a position no-one holds. Why is it so hard for you to discuss the actual topic GÇö you know, s-flagging? Why do you have such difficulties creating a thread to discuss the tangent you want to go on? Is it because your question has already been answered by everyone (except, funnily enough, the OP) and no-one is picking it up as a result, so you know that it such a thread would be DOA? Hell, you only went on this pointless tangent because you desperately wanted to prove something I said was GÇ£falseGÇ¥, which you immediately failed to do GÇö as always GÇö because you failed to read what was actually written GÇö as always. Now you're clinging to it in an equally desperate attempt to prove your silly misreading was accurate, which you most likely will fail to do as wellGÇª GÇªor you could just go back on topic and discuss the reasons why s-flagging was removed from data/relic sites. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
Salvos Rhoska 1212	Posted - 2015.08.06 15:21:07 - [98] - Quote Tippia wrote: GÇªor you could just go back on topic and discuss the reasons why s-flagging was removed from data/relic sites. Fair enough. The opportunity for flagging was ultimately negated by the over-riding change that loot spew was removed and substituted with the loot remaining in the node specifically and inviolably for the original analyze process completer, for them to access and loot. No loot spew + inviolable access to the nodes loot= S-timer no longer exists. The reason for this was primarily because loot spew was pissing off enormous amounts of explorers (for various reasons, most of which I dont agree with, but is not important here, but which I can elaborate on at length if asked). Fair enough answer? Now that that is out of the way, may I ask to indulge the readers, with the benefit of what has already been said in this thread, to consider the following question: Would it be so bad if HS data/relic nodes were more competetive? ------------
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 25525	Posted - 2015.08.06 15:27:54 - [99] - Quote Salvos Rhoska wrote: Fair enough answer? Yes. We already knew all of that. Quote: Would it be so bad if HS data/relic nodes were more competetive? No-one has argued that it would be. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
Salvos Rhoska 1212	Posted - 2015.08.06 15:31:45 - [100] - Quote Tippia wrote: Salvos Rhoska wrote: Fair enough answer? Yes. We already knew all of that. Quote: Would it be so bad if HS data/relic nodes were more competetive? No-one has argued that it would be. Ok. Then as I already presented earlier, how can we achieve that? ------------
Utremi Fasolasi La Dolce Vita 465	Posted - 2015.08.06 15:35:35 - [101] - Quote There was no criminal flagging with the loot spew mechanic, it was whoever grabbed the pinata candy first after it exploded got the sweets free and clear. Even without a competitor there it was way too twitchy and frustrating and you missed most of the loot. The only thing that's changed is there is no spew. The competition is on the hacking itself if you get there in time before the other guy. Good riddance to that annoying space pinata mechanic.
P3ps1 Max Hedion University Amarr Empire 28	Posted - 2015.08.06 15:36:14 - [102] - Quote Better yet ... mind your own business and stay in Null. 'We' High SEC players are doing very well thank you very much.
Salvos Rhoska 1215	Posted - 2015.08.06 18:18:29 - [103] - Quote Welll, thread dead. As it stands, HS data sites are about 1 mil/can + BPs. Its enough to keep em interested and get some bankroll. HS relic sites however, did the dodo. Its good, safe experience for new players to tune their probing, skill up and learn abit about builds before they venture further out. Also helps clear out data sites off my sig list for combat sigs so Im happy for that. Always a silver lining, my friends. I just think it could be a bit better, but its not exactly a priority. ------------
Hal Morsh Delusions of Granduer Two Drink Minimum 370	Posted - 2015.08.06 20:52:57 - [104] - Quote Tippia wrote: Salvos Rhoska wrote: Cypherous wrote: You know where this is going :P Would it be bad if HS data/relic sites where more competetive? What does that have to do with anything he said? Really, I have to ask, what is it with your fascination to ask completely unrelated and tangential questions to people who aren't discussing the same thing you are? Why do you feel this constant need to drag the conversation off topic? He said "EXACTLY" what I was thinking. So **** off. Dun'Gal > Hal is simply an imperfect ai, though if drunkeness ever gets programmed into ai's I foresee both a hilarious and tragic end to humanity.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 25525	Posted - 2015.08.06 21:03:14 - [105] - Quote Hal Morsh wrote: He said "EXACTLY" what I was thinking. So ** off. Non sequitur. You weren't even part of the conversation, so why should I ** off for asking about the lack of connection between what Cypherous and Salvos said? Oh, and if you were thinking about making the sites more competitive, why didn't you latch on to that when it was brought up and instead kept harping on about the unrelated s-flagging? GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
Hal Morsh Delusions of Granduer Two Drink Minimum 370	Posted - 2015.08.06 21:08:19 - [106] - Quote Tippia wrote: Hal Morsh wrote: He said "EXACTLY" what I was thinking. So ** off. Non sequitur. You weren't even part of the conversation, so why should I ** off for asking about the lack of connection between what Cypherous and Salvos said? In fact, your post makes absolutely no sense whatsoever in the context of that quote. What the hell are you even on about?! Oh, and if you were thinking about making the sites more competitive, why didn't you latch on to that when it was brought up and instead kept harping on about the unrelated s-flagging? Hell, you explicitly, aggressively, and immediately dismissed this aspect when it was first brought up. Why the sudden change of hearts? Could it be that your initial idea was so thoroughly dismantled that you now have to try to hide behind the non-argument someone else brought upGÇª hmm? Quoting it in case you change it Dun'Gal > Hal is simply an imperfect ai, though if drunkeness ever gets programmed into ai's I foresee both a hilarious and tragic end to humanity.
Hal Morsh Delusions of Granduer Two Drink Minimum 370	Posted - 2015.08.06 21:09:56 - [107] - Quote Tippia wrote: Salvos Rhoska wrote: You dont have the authority to delineate what is ontopic and what isnt. Yes I do, by virtue of being able to read what the OP GÇö the one who created the topic GÇö says the topic is. It's not what you want it to be, which is why I'm suggesting that maybe a new thread on your preferred topic is in order. We've even tried to suggest this to the OP, but he just goes back to wanting to talk about his precious theft-triggered S-flags. Tippia wrote: Hal Morsh wrote: Trying to derail the topic and point it towards me by repeatedly throwing your opinion at "suspect flag ineptitude" means I am done with talking to you. No. Trying to make you understand what it is you're talking about. Without such an understanding, you don't even know what the rails in question look like. Dun'Gal > Hal is simply an imperfect ai, though if drunkeness ever gets programmed into ai's I foresee both a hilarious and tragic end to humanity.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 25526	Posted - 2015.08.06 21:10:25 - [108] - Quote Hal Morsh wrote: No, really, why the change of hearts? Use your words, not your tearful blubbering. Quote: Better quote it before you change it. Sorry, what you said was already quoted and changing it won't help you now. Now, could you answer the question? GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
Hal Morsh Delusions of Granduer Two Drink Minimum 370	Posted - 2015.08.06 21:18:14 - [109] - Quote Tippia wrote: Salvos Rhoska wrote: Whats wrong with asking an interested party: "Would it be bad if HS data/relic sites where more competetive?" It's off-topic. Now, I understand that you really want to discuss the structure, nature, and means of competition in highsec exploration, and that's an interesting topic, but it's a topic for a different thread. Maybe you should start one. Hal Morsh wrote: Stop making highsec safer in the dumbest of ways. When exploration GETS crowded, fighting between each other for the loot is one way to take care of things, but uhm no.... We can't. It was always about competition in highsec exploration. Dun'Gal > Hal is simply an imperfect ai, though if drunkeness ever gets programmed into ai's I foresee both a hilarious and tragic end to humanity.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 25526	Posted - 2015.08.06 21:25:01 - [110] - Quote Hal Morsh wrote: It was always about competition in highsec exploration. So why did you explicitly, aggressively, and immediately dismissed this aspect when it was first brought up? Why were you so hung up on the unrelated s-flagging? Why was you only mention of competition a claim that wasn't even true to begin with? GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
Hal Morsh Delusions of Granduer Two Drink Minimum 370	Posted - 2015.08.06 21:36:17 - [111] - Quote Tippia wrote: Hal Morsh wrote: It was always about competition in highsec exploration. So why did you explicitly, aggressively, and immediately dismissed this aspect when it was first brought up? Are you going to keep spinning the merry go round? Hal Morsh wrote: You either commit an act that gets you indefinitely Concorded or nothing at all. S-flagging relates to combat in exploration. That S-flagging theft was something you could do when loot spew existed. Dun'Gal > Hal is simply an imperfect ai, though if drunkeness ever gets programmed into ai's I foresee both a hilarious and tragic end to humanity.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 25526	Posted - 2015.08.06 21:37:09 - [112] - Quote Hal Morsh wrote: Are you going to keep spinning the merry go round? Are you going to answer the question? GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
Hal Morsh Delusions of Granduer Two Drink Minimum 370	Posted - 2015.08.06 21:43:33 - [113] - Quote When someone hacked a container, anyone waiting around in the site could nab loot and go suspect like looting ship wrecks. Then creating content if someone took action against him, and either the theif or the hacker has come prepared to explode the other. Of course the hacker has to initiate combat against the theif but that isn't to say the theif isn't prepared to fight back. it's an either/or situation. Dun'Gal > Hal is simply an imperfect ai, though if drunkeness ever gets programmed into ai's I foresee both a hilarious and tragic end to humanity.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 25526	Posted - 2015.08.06 21:50:01 - [114] - Quote Hal Morsh wrote: When someone hacked a container, anyone waiting around in the site could nab loot and go suspect like looting ship wrecks. Then creating content if someone took action against him, and either the theif or the hacker has come prepared to explode the other. Of course the hacker has to initiate combat against the theif but that isn't to say the theif isn't prepared to fight back. it's an either/or situation. I'm sorry, I thought the thread was about competition in the site, not s-flagging. Are you changing your mind again? If we're back to the whole theft bit, could you instead answer the question of why this harvesting should differ so drastically from the other types? Why isn't the existing content of the type you're asking for sufficient GÇö why do things have to be changed to be entirely in your favour? Quote: My main issue is why did CCP remove it? This has already been answered: because it was inconsistent and unnecessary. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
Hal Morsh Delusions of Granduer Two Drink Minimum 370	Posted - 2015.08.06 22:00:04 - [115] - Quote Tippia wrote: I'm sorry, I thought the thread was about competition in the site, not s-flagging. Are you changing your mind again? If we're back to the whole theft bit, could you instead answer the question of why this harvesting should differ so drastically from the other types? Why isn't the existing content of the type you're asking for sufficient GÇö why do things have to be changed to be entirely in your favour? It's about competition and s-flagging combat at the same time. Read this http://forum.eveuniversity.org/viewtopic.php?f=129&t=67703#p594687 So if it's all about being in "my" favor. Am I the loki? Or the Heron? Dun'Gal > Hal is simply an imperfect ai, though if drunkeness ever gets programmed into ai's I foresee both a hilarious and tragic end to humanity.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 25526	Posted - 2015.08.06 22:15:50 - [116] - Quote Hal Morsh wrote: It's about competition and s-flagging combat at the same time. So why are you only focusing on one of those two? The one that makes the least sense? Quote: So if it's all about being in "my" favor. Am I the loki? Or the Heron? No GÇ£ifGÇ¥. It is in your favour per your previous examples (where you took on the role of the heron in that threadGÇª or are you changing your mind about that too?). I'm guessing you've not read up on how s-flagging works yet since you still don't understand the blatantly obvious advantage you're asking for in those situations? GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
Hal Morsh Delusions of Granduer Two Drink Minimum 370	Posted - 2015.08.06 22:22:41 - [117] - Quote Tippia wrote: Hal Morsh wrote: It's about competition and s-flagging combat at the same time. So why are you only focusing on one of those two? The one that makes the least sense? Quote: So if it's all about being in "my" favor. Am I the loki? Or the Heron? No GÇ£ifGÇ¥. It is in your favour per your previous examples (where you took on the role of the heron in that threadGÇª or are you changing your mind about that too?). I'm guessing you've not read up on how s-flagging works yet since you still don't understand the blatantly obvious advantage you're asking for in those situations? It wasn't me in that thread I googled it, and why is the heron in favor? Dun'Gal > Hal is simply an imperfect ai, though if drunkeness ever gets programmed into ai's I foresee both a hilarious and tragic end to humanity.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 25526	Posted - 2015.08.06 22:26:20 - [118] - Quote Hal Morsh wrote: It wasn't me in that thread I googled it Like I said: per your previous examples, you took on the role of the heron in that thread. Quote: why is the heron in favor? Because that's how s-flagging works. That's why I've been imploring you to read up on the mechanic before you make suggestions centred around it. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
Hal Morsh Delusions of Granduer Two Drink Minimum 370	Posted - 2015.08.06 22:34:22 - [119] - Quote Tippia wrote: Hal Morsh wrote: It wasn't me in that thread I googled it Like I said: per your previous examples, you took on the role of the heron in that thread. I havn't said which role I took, you assumed, and you still havn't told me which I am yet. Quote: why is the heron in favor? Because that's how s-flagging works. That's why I've been imploring you to read up on the mechanic before you make suggestions centred around it. Okay, I know the mechanic, you are saying the Heron is in favor, why? You don't explain the mechanic at all, you just assumed the heron won the argument. Do I have to explain the aggression flags, so you can't explain why but just tell me I don't know again? Dun'Gal > Hal is simply an imperfect ai, though if drunkeness ever gets programmed into ai's I foresee both a hilarious and tragic end to humanity.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 25526	Posted - 2015.08.06 22:43:10 - [120] - Quote Hal Morsh wrote: Okay, I know the mechanic No. I say this with confidence becauseGÇª Quote: you are saying the Heron is in favor, why? GÇªyou keep asking this question, even though it is a direct consequence of how the mechanic works. It is particularly evident in relation to the option you keep refusing to use: the engage in and with the same content and activities in the situations where they already work the way you want them to work. I don't explain the mechanic because I want you to look it up and demonstrate a sliver of ability to read, understand, and learn. As long as you keep insisting that you do know how it works, I will definitely not explain it to you, but rather keep ribbing you when you immediately afterwards demonstrate such confusion about a very fundamental part of it all. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
Hal Morsh Delusions of Granduer Two Drink Minimum 370	Posted - 2015.08.06 22:48:18 - [121] - Quote Tippia wrote: Moac Tor wrote: Link Looks like I'm one of the few people who have managed to prove Tippia wrong chuckles It's not actually very hard GÇö you just have to be willing to provide supporting information when asked for it. That's where most people instead opt to flip out, and go on irrational berserker rants instead, inevitably proving themselves wrong in the process. Tippia wrote: Hal Morsh wrote: I've met people in other forums just like you. There is a reason people go on those irrational berserker rants specifically aimed at you. And no it's not because you are "right". Correct. It's because I'm right, and because they are utterly shocked that their usual attempts at spewing unfounded and incoherent nonsense didn't work this time. You don't know why someone did something so you ask, and someone else comes along and starts implying things about you instead of awnsering (whilst hiding it in 5 pages of TL:DR for everyone but the OP and troll) related content, so instead of conversing with others he ends up defending against things the troll is saying that aren't true but aren't against the OP and aren't usually inflammatory, so only the OP and the troll know why the OP is so angry, he also has a harder time getting the answer from everyone else because of, then a mod steps in and ends it. I don't know why you would want to do this but in the end all you are is a good salesperson. Dun'Gal > Hal is simply an imperfect ai, though if drunkeness ever gets programmed into ai's I foresee both a hilarious and tragic end to humanity.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 25526	Posted - 2015.08.06 22:57:12 - [122] - Quote Hal Morsh wrote: I don't know why you would want to do this but in the end all you are is a good salesperson. Yes you do, because it has been spelled out to you very clearly already. I'm not selling anything GÇö I'm trying to make you learn and then construct a coherent argument based on what you just learned. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 2345	Posted - 2015.08.06 23:02:47 - [123] - Quote If you want more competition just increase the loot. Demand will then naturally increase competition. You don't need to increase competition first, it will happen simply because of increased loot. But once hacked the can should just be auto loading into cargo like all other resource gathering. The reason it doesn't is because CCP insist on keeping worthless loot in the can also so people want to be able to leave the worthless stuff behind. Trying to use ships wrecks is a red herring, since the actual 'resource' shooting a red cross has is an isk bounty. And that can't be stolen. The loot in the wreck and salvage are not primary resources but secondary 'bonus' resources you can get sometimes.
Hal Morsh Delusions of Granduer Two Drink Minimum 370	Posted - 2015.08.06 23:10:59 - [124] - Quote Well then fine. I assume they removed suspect related combat from exploration along with the loot spew mechanic because it becomes to much easier for the theif to just wait by the scanned can they want in a quick escape ship ready to nab it all with 1 button whilst the hacker is still waiting the second or two of lag after the minigame closes to click and open, he isn't ready whilst the theif is, in explorations current form it skews the reward to the theif through reaction. How that would put the heron in favor is if he was ready and even locked the theif before hand and locked him down before he ran away and destroyed him, he loses some loot but if killmails are more important to him. I was thinking more of the experiance of being a thief or the combat dude. In such a dull place like highsec for someone who doesn't experiance much pvp, injecting it into exploration gives more unexpected experiences to like and improve from. This all was removed for the fact that it skewed the reward from one person to another because of another game change, they just didn't work to re implement it because of how much it would actually take to make it balanced that way, when how we have it now is so much easier. Easyness over exitement. Of course that's just my opinion, and I like other peoples opinions on it in stead of going in circles it helps me change my awnser if i'm wrong or reinforces what I currently think. Nevyn Auscent wrote: If you want more competition just increase the loot. Demand will then naturally increase competition. You don't need to increase competition first, it will happen simply because of increased loot. But once hacked the can should just be auto loading into cargo like all other resource gathering. The reason it doesn't is because CCP insist on keeping worthless loot in the can also so people want to be able to leave the worthless stuff behind. Trying to use ships wrecks is a red herring, since the actual 'resource' shooting a red cross has is an isk bounty. And that can't be stolen. The loot in the wreck and salvage are not primary resources but secondary 'bonus' resources you can get sometimes. So it should be put into cargo automatically if suspect related combat isn't meant to be in exploration sites.? But I feel we should be increasing occurences where you fight other players with more options. They have added a few of those, but any removal of one upsets me, and I start asking why. Dun'Gal > Hal is simply an imperfect ai, though if drunkeness ever gets programmed into ai's I foresee both a hilarious and tragic end to humanity.
Hal Morsh Delusions of Granduer Two Drink Minimum 370	Posted - 2015.08.06 23:18:08 - [125] - Quote Tippia wrote: I'm trying to make you learn and then construct a coherent argument based on what you just learned. Then why do we have to go through pages of that to get to this? It's just too much effort for a small answer I just don't want to argue anymore. :( I'm done and content with my answer. Dun'Gal > Hal is simply an imperfect ai, though if drunkeness ever gets programmed into ai's I foresee both a hilarious and tragic end to humanity.
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 2345	Posted - 2015.08.06 23:18:37 - [126] - Quote Hal Morsh wrote: So it should be put into cargo automatically if suspect related combat isn't meant to be in exploration sites.? But I feel we should be increasing occurences where you fight other players with more options. They have added a few of those, but any removal of one upsets me, and I start asking why. Shoot the ship if you want the loot then? But any form of theft is twitch based gameplay which is always going to be bad in EVE. No matter what level of security setting you can always shoot the ship, especially in High Sec Data/Relic exploration where they are going to be in weak T1 exploration frigates that die in 2 seconds to a sneeze, let alone anything tougher.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 25526	Posted - 2015.08.06 23:19:40 - [127] - Quote Hal Morsh wrote: Well then fine. I assume they removed suspect related combat from exploration [GÇª] Jesus. Ok, new question: why do you even ask questions if you're just going to flat out ignore the answers people give you. It has already been explained to you why. You don't really have to assume anything at this point. No, it was not removed because it skewed anything towards the thief. Quote: How that would put the heron in favor is if he was ready and even locked the theif before hand and locked him down before he ran away and destroyed him, he loses some loot but if killmails are more important to him. No. What you're describing is just how you prepare for combat GÇö it has nothing to do with the advantages s-flagging bestow on the injured party. Quote: So it should be put into cargo automatically if suspect related combat isn't meant to be in exploration sites. Funnily enough, doing so would actually create the opportunity for theft you're looking forGÇª Quote: Then why do we have to go through pages of that to get to this? Because you keep refusing to learn and instead just repeat the same uninformed nonsense over and over again. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
Paranoid Loyd 6534	Posted - 2015.08.06 23:27:25 - [128] - Quote I would imagine watching a Kangaroo and a Sloth having a boxing match would be similar to this thread. "Gankers are just other players, not supernatural monsters who will get you if you don't follow some arbitrary superstition. Haul responsibly and without irrational fear." Masao Kurata Fix the Prospect!
Salvos Rhoska 1221	Posted - 2015.08.06 23:49:40 - [129] - Quote Nevyn Auscent wrote: If you want more competition just increase the loot. Demand will then naturally increase competition. You don't need to increase competition first, it will happen simply because of increased loot. But once hacked the can should just be auto loading into cargo like all other resource gathering. The reason it doesn't is because CCP insist on keeping worthless loot in the can also so people want to be able to leave the worthless stuff behind. Trying to use ships wrecks is a red herring, since the actual 'resource' shooting a red cross has is an isk bounty. And that can't be stolen. The loot in the wreck and salvage are not primary resources but secondary 'bonus' resources you can get sometimes. There is no means to increase HS relic/data loot value without reciprocally increasing the systemic competition/risk of aquiring it. With increased value, comes increased competition, but that doesnt change the mechanics of who gets the loot, which in relic/data sites is ridiculosuly carefree and inviolable simply for having pressed the analyzer first. Even Miners compete more for the last dregs of a shared asteroid by timing their cycles (and make a ton more isk on ICE alone, which frankly renders in and of itself HS data sites (not to mention relic sites) completely obsolete in terms of profit per time invested. )Salvaging is also another pos profession that sure, while some do it, makes no time/isk sense. All of this is entirely academic anyways, because the changes roughly congruent with removing loot spew (and theft with s-timer), coincided with the availability of data site loot from other sources, hence undermining the value arbitrarily (which makes sense, cos HS data site hacking was simplified due to 99% of explorers apparently having carpal tunnel syndrome and/or ADHD, hence, less value) They would have to invent new loot or double the units of them to make data site exploration even remotely profitable compared to other standard HS fair. Try ICE mining. You will cry when you see how much you pull in a single cycle just by clicking the asteroid and picking your nose. You dont even need to search and scan for it. The ICE spawns are clockwork and static. Furthermore nobody runs sigs for bounty. The loot in the officer wreck is the payoff. 4-650mil in HS. Try that from data sites. There is not even a point to dropping an MTU onsite to recover the modules from wrecks because a) the module drop rate is down b) the recycle rate is down for minerals off them. Let alone poor salvaging which is like trying to pick chips/mars bar wrappers off the street after kids and trying to make a profit re-selling them. HS data/relic sites are crap. I know this. OP knows this. OP just wanted some more excitement and a little bit of flashy bastard action in HS. Damn him for that if you want, but I sure as hell dont. That goes for you too, Tippia. ------------
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 25526	Posted - 2015.08.07 00:02:45 - [130] - Quote Salvos Rhoska wrote: All of this is entirely academic anyways, because the changes roughly congruent with removing loot spew (and theft with s-timer), coincided with the availability of data site loot from other sources, hence undermining the value arbitrarily (which makes sense, cos HS data site hacking was simplified due to 99% of explorers apparently having carpal tunnel syndrome and/or ADHD, hence, less value) They would have to invent new loot or double the units of them to make data site exploration even remotely profitable compared to other standard HS fair. Try ICE mining. You will cry when you see how much you pull in a single cycle just by clicking the asteroid and picking your nose. You dont even need to search and scan for it. The ICE spawns are clockwork and static. Normally, I'd make some quip about this, same as every other time someone fails to spell GÇ£iceGÇ¥ properly, but given the context, I can't use my normal question of how you farm Intrusion Countermeasure Electronics GÇö after all, that's exactly what the hacking minigame is all about. Instead, I'll just point out that the hacking hasn't actually been simplified GÇö they've just removed the loot collection since it failed to fulfil its purpose. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
Hal Morsh Delusions of Granduer Two Drink Minimum 370	Posted - 2015.08.07 00:05:08 - [131] - Quote Paranoid Loyd wrote: I would imagine watching a Kangaroo and a Sloth having a boxing match would be similar to this thread. Tippia is "much" better at it han you, you just one sentanced and lost. Dun'Gal > Hal is simply an imperfect ai, though if drunkeness ever gets programmed into ai's I foresee both a hilarious and tragic end to humanity.
Salvos Rhoska 1221	Posted - 2015.08.07 00:08:42 - [132] - Quote Tippia wrote: blahblahblah I think you are finally starting to warm up to me! ------------
Hal Morsh Delusions of Granduer Two Drink Minimum 370	Posted - 2015.08.07 00:10:34 - [133] - Quote Tippia wrote: Salvos Rhoska wrote: All of this is entirely academic anyways, because the changes roughly congruent with removing loot spew (and theft with s-timer), coincided with the availability of data site loot from other sources, hence undermining the value arbitrarily (which makes sense, cos HS data site hacking was simplified due to 99% of explorers apparently having carpal tunnel syndrome and/or ADHD, hence, less value) They would have to invent new loot or double the units of them to make data site exploration even remotely profitable compared to other standard HS fair. Try ICE mining. You will cry when you see how much you pull in a single cycle just by clicking the asteroid and picking your nose. You dont even need to search and scan for it. The ICE spawns are clockwork and static. Normally, I'd make some quip about this, same as every other time someone fails to spell GÇ£iceGÇ¥ properly, but given the context, I can't use my normal question of how you farm Intrusion Countermeasure Electronics GÇö after all, that's exactly what the hacking minigame is all about. Instead, I'll just point out that the hacking hasn't actually been simplified GÇö they've just removed the loot collection since it failed to fulfil its purpose. You know what this is an ***** abusing a nice person. Telling him a capitalized "i" he typed is an L because a lowercase L and an uppercase "i" look the same.. Edit: Oh it was a joke about ECM. You're still being an *****. Can an ISD please smack Tippia or something? and yes, people call them ISD's regardless of your Little troLL. You're also "AGAIN" ignoring the fact combat was at all possible in exploration (relic/data) sites. http://forum.eveuniversity.org/viewtopic.php?f=129&amp;t=67703#p594687 Dun'Gal > Hal is simply an imperfect ai, though if drunkeness ever gets programmed into ai's I foresee both a hilarious and tragic end to humanity.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 25526	Posted - 2015.08.07 00:13:44 - [134] - Quote But seriously. It's GÇ£iceGÇ¥, not GÇ£ICEGÇ¥. It's a regular English word that's been around since the ancient Germanic era. It is not an abbreviation or acronym. While there is stuff that's called GÇ£ICEGÇ¥, none of it exists in EVE (the hacking minigame intrusion countermeasures being the closest thing, but they're not actually called that). So the only letter in the word that should ever be capitalised is the initial GÇÿiGÇÖ, per the usual rules of capitalising the first letter of the first word in a sentence. < /pet peeve rant > GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
Hal Morsh Delusions of Granduer Two Drink Minimum 370	Posted - 2015.08.07 00:14:42 - [135] - Quote I get you backed into a corner and you start to be civil, and when I let it go you just start RIGHT back up again. Dun'Gal > Hal is simply an imperfect ai, though if drunkeness ever gets programmed into ai's I foresee both a hilarious and tragic end to humanity.
Hal Morsh Delusions of Granduer Two Drink Minimum 371	Posted - 2015.08.07 00:16:53 - [136] - Quote I guess I should have just taken some advice. Don't fight with pigs you just get covered in ****, and they like it. Dun'Gal > Hal is simply an imperfect ai, though if drunkeness ever gets programmed into ai's I foresee both a hilarious and tragic end to humanity.
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 2347	Posted - 2015.08.07 00:21:00 - [137] - Quote No risk? T1 Exploration Frigate! Please go and tell me what the EHP of a T1 Exploration frigate in it's normal exploration fittings is. Then tell me what DPS is needed to kill said T1 Exploration Frigate in oh, lets say a 0.8 System to be nice to you. Then tell me what DPS you can get with a sub 5 million ship. The lack of risk is directly related to the lack of reward. As soon as there is reward, it becomes worth it to gank T1 exploration frigates in high sec which DIRECTLY PROVIDES RISK! Solution to all of your complaints. Increase reward. It makes Data/Relic sites actually worth doing for income relative to other high sec activities for a start, the fact it's lower means increasing reward will not unbalance the game. And it also means they face risk of death. Your argument over 'competition for resources' is utterly ridiculous, since there are several nodes in each site and you can compete on finding the site first and racing for each node even if you are in site together. So there is as much competition in the profession as there can be without introducing twitch based mechanics which are BAD. TLDR version. More reward solves all 'lack' of risk.
Salvos Rhoska 1221	Posted - 2015.08.07 00:21:41 - [138] - Quote Hal Morsh wrote: [qYou're still being an *****. Hal, may I introduce you to Tippia. When she enters your thread, its **, unless you know the dance. Its not personal against you, its personally how she is. Ive gone some dozen rounds with her in the ring, and its always the same. Dont let her bait you. Just continue as normal with other posters and laugh occasionally that she wont (and cant) stop posting to you even if you dont respond. ------------**
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 25526	Posted - 2015.08.07 00:21:56 - [139] - Quote Hal Morsh wrote: I get you backed into a corner LMAO no. You just gave up, that's all. Quote: you start to be civil You're thoroughly and completely confused now. Just look at the incoherent mess you threw out up there, just because you didn't understand a word of what I said (whereas Salvos apparently did). Granted, it was ever so slightly inside baseball for cyberpunk readers, but just because you didn't get the reference doesn't mean you had to go in and try misconstrue every single word of it. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 2347	Posted - 2015.08.07 00:33:59 - [140] - Quote mumbles about people who never played Shadowrunner
Salvos Rhoska 1221	Posted - 2015.08.07 00:36:05 - [141] - Quote Nevyn Auscent wrote: The lack of risk is directly related to the lack of reward. wat. what risk is there in HS data/relic hacking. please, Im very interested to hear. Nevyn Auscent wrote: So there is as much competition in the profession as there can be without introducing twitch based mechanics which are BAD. I didnt have a problem with loot spew. I quickly researched which cans had highest chance of good loot and have the fine motor skills required to aquire them. Frankly I found it a welcome burst of activity in otherwise rather tedious exploration (especially in HS). ------------
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 25526	Posted - 2015.08.07 00:36:22 - [142] - Quote Nevyn Auscent wrote: mumbles about people who never played Shadowrunner o/\o I am kind of curious where the notion of capitalising ice in EVE comes from, though. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Get a good start: Newbie skillplan 2.2.
ISD LackOfFaith ISD Community Communications Liaisons 2156	Posted - 2015.08.07 00:36:25 - [143] - Quote Quote: Forum rules 3. Ranting is prohibited. A rant is a post that is often filled with angry and counterproductive comments. A free exchange of ideas is essential to building a strong sense of community and is helpful in development of the game and community. Rants are disruptive, and incite flaming and trolling. Please post your thoughts in a concise and clear manner while avoiding going off on rambling tangents. 4. Personal attacks are prohibited. Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not conductive to the community spirit that CCP promotes. As such, this kind of behavior will not be tolerated. 5. Trolling is prohibited. Trolling is a defined as a post that is deliberately designed for the purpose of angering and insulting other players in an attempt to incite retaliation or an emotional response. Posts of this nature are disruptive, often abusive, and do not contribute to the sense of community that CCP promote. 23. Post constructively. Negative feedback can be very useful to further improve EVE Online provided that it is presented in a civil and factual manner. All users are encouraged to honestly express their feelings regarding EVE Online and how it can be improved. Posts that are non-constructive, insulting or in breach of the rules will be deleted regardless of how valid the ideas behind them may be. Users are also reminded that posting with a lack of content also constitutes non-constructive posting. Thread locked. If there is a deficiency about Eve you wish to discuss, please bring up the topic in a constructive manner, and keep the discussion on topic and respectful. Also, if you wish to propose an idea for how to fix or enhance some aspect of Eve, please post it in the Features and Ideas Discussion subforum. ISD LackOfFaith Captain Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department I do not respond to Eve Mail or anything other than the forums.

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