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Aestivalis Saidrian
SplitPush Mercantiles
7
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Posted - 2011.12.12 03:04:00 -
[31] - Quote
YuuKnow wrote:I just wish that they would switch the graphics of the Dissolution Sequencer with the graphics of the Emergent Locus Analyzer. The Emergent Locus Analyzer is the subsystem that's most useful to me, but also the one that looks the ugliest! Sometimes I want to inquip the Dissolution Sequencer just for the cool look.
How about it devs?
Neut and lasers also is a a difficult combination, so how about changing the Energy Parasitic Complex bonus to "10% reduction in cap use for energy neutralizers per level" or "5% bonus to capictor capacity per level" instead.
Nah, you use the Energy Parasitic Complex with HAMs or Nos + Lasers. |

Fon Revedhort
Monks of War DarkSide.
54
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Posted - 2011.12.12 04:52:00 -
[32] - Quote
river Zateki wrote: and the covert one made me cry. I got something like 200 dps with it.... Looks fine to me. What did you expect? Commit to risk just like a man and you will get proper DPS. That's the same whines Black Ops apologists spread around without realising the basics. 2008, CCP Zulu(park): "command ships are fine as is" 2011, CCP Greyscale: "is the Nighthawk actually underpowered?" Nice progress, guys. |

Arazel Chainfire
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
25
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Posted - 2011.12.12 05:33:00 -
[33] - Quote
Fon Revedhort wrote:river Zateki wrote: and the covert one made me cry. I got something like 200 dps with it.... Looks fine to me. What did you expect? Commit to risk just like a man and you will get proper DPS. That's the same whines Black Ops apologists spread around without realising the basics. What we expect is it to be able to match, or at least come near the proteus, the loki, and the tengu covops subsystems. Namely, the legion does about 200dps (which btw is less than a curse using just medium drones...), while those other 3 have viable fits that do between 400 and 500dps. Without faction mods (except ammo).
Also, seriously, wtf? A cloaky (attempt to gank) legion fit that is interdiction nullified and tries to maximize its dps by fitting 5 guns had more mids then lows. Seriously? This is an AMARR ship we're talking about here... the resists are horrid for doing a shield tank, and thats not even counting CPU issues, or the bonuses that it gets to armor tanking/buffer. A cloaky proteus has more lowslots. While doing double the dps. And having more EHP. Now I'm not saying that the legion needs to blow all these other t3's out of the water at it, but seriously, this is downright BAD. About the only way that one of these would be accepted in a fleet is if someone decided to run a T3 only cloaky gank fleet and brought it to neut things. If they were smart they would bring a curse for the neuting instead.
-Arazel |

Teras Lakkos
5
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Posted - 2011.12.13 04:24:00 -
[34] - Quote
2 worthless and 2 "ok" offensive subs... check no drone bay on non worthless offensive subs... check (slightly?) lower dps than other t3 ships... check war on legion low slots... check deadspace armor reps much worse than deadspace shield reps.... check
ccp hates the legion.
|

Jojo Jackson
Dead Red Eye
14
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Posted - 2011.12.13 05:28:00 -
[35] - Quote
Teras Lakkos wrote:2 worthless and 2 "ok" offensive subs... check
True, Turret and Cloack subs are worthless as Turrets without even 25m-¦ dronebay is just stupid.
Assault sub is cool, Drone sub need a REAL bonus instead of this gimp 10% cap usage ****. Why the hell can't I fitt capital repairs or shield booster on an Orca ... it's an CAPITAL ship! |

Liang Nuren
Heretic Army
156
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Posted - 2011.12.13 05:58:00 -
[36] - Quote
I see lots of people saying that the Legion is pretty good. I see nobody saying why or providing fits that they believe to be competitive.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Teras Lakkos
5
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Posted - 2011.12.13 22:31:00 -
[37] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:I see lots of people saying that the Legion is pretty good. I see nobody saying why or providing fits that they believe to be competitive.
-Liang
It doesn't use ammo in wormholes, only major use of the legion.
Wanting drones and useful offensive subs is part of the problem, but the FUNDAMENTAL problem with the legion is the slot allocation by subsystems. Despite what ccp seems to think, amarr boats need maximum low slots. The legion can fit up to 7 low slots. Pretty good right? Wait a second lets look at the subsystem options.
Assuming fitting for max low slots (7): the legion has 4 subsystem categories that can take away a low slot (there are only 5 categories ) How does this compare? Proteus (7 max lows ): 2 categories can take away a low Loki (6 max lows): 3 categories can take away a low (It is suppose to be able to field a shield tank!) Tengu: who cares it shield tanks
But wait there's more. Proteus can field max lows and 6 guns Loki can field max lows and 6 guns Legion can't field max lows and 6 guns 
Dear CCP: fix my legion. |

Adeena Torcfist
Dark Underground Forces
13
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Posted - 2011.12.14 01:21:00 -
[38] - Quote
on my fits, i have 1 too many low slots & 1 too few mid slots.
i want to swop my low slot for a mid slot plz.
but seriously, it need an overhaul.
im quite distgusted how no developers have popped in, & said we are aware of the issue with the legion, that it is sub par. We will look into it.
Silence speaks a thousand words to me.....  |

Liang Nuren
Heretic Army
159
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Posted - 2011.12.14 01:28:00 -
[39] - Quote
Adeena Torcfist wrote:on my fits, i have 1 too many low slots & 1 too few mid slots. i want to swop my low slot for a mid slot plz. but seriously, it need an overhaul. im quite distgusted how no developers have popped in, & said we are aware of the issue with the legion, that it is sub par. We will look into it. Silence speaks a thousand words to me..... 
Come on now - lets be realistic. The melodramatic QQ of how you can't believe a dev hasn't popped in to post an agreement with you over a 2 page thread in Ships & Modules is way, way, way over the top and out of line. That's the kind of petulant whining I'd expect to see in the WOW or Rift forums - not Eve Online.
Seriously, it needs help but its not catastrophically broken and nor does it somehow invalidate 25% of the characters in the game. If I don't like the Legion I'll fly a Tengu or a Proteus or a Loki or a ******* Armageddon. Save the QQ for something that deserves it.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Teras Lakkos
5
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Posted - 2011.12.14 22:27:00 -
[40] - Quote
You can fit a legion that only has 3 lows (4 not including the interdiction sub).
Broken.
In all seriousness, if you actually want at least 6 lows you cant fit alot of the subsystems. Either you cherry pick for lows or pay the consequences. Whereas a proteus can pick from the 4 sub options in most cases without sacrificing low slots.
my guess is that CCP is trying to get the legion to emulate the recon ships and the sacrilege (ie small number of lows). Guess what this does for a ship that cant actually emulate these ships well but suffers the low slot axe anyways?
 |

Melina Lin
Universal Frog
10
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Posted - 2011.12.15 08:39:00 -
[41] - Quote
PVE Legion suffers quite a bit from it's resist profile in my opinion. It is excellent at tanking Angels, the one rat type you really don't want to shoot lasers at. The natural prey of a Legion are Bloods and Sansha, but thanks to its thermal hole it is not that good at tanking them. Being a turret ship it is also badly affected by tracking disruption. Guess which rats use TDs? Bloods and Sansha of course.
Now look at the Tengu and how it is performing against it's natural enemy, the Guristas, in terms of tank, gank and Ewar mitigation. No wonder people are disappointed.
Still, I am happy with the legion. I have only one wish, +50 bandwidth and +15m3 bay on one of the engineering sub systems like the Proteus has. Hell, I would be happy with just the bandwidth, would make the drone sys so much better and actually worth using. Right now it's just a very expensive Pilgrim. |

Moana Pozzi
Partito dell' Amore
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.15 09:03:00 -
[42] - Quote
I use legion in covert/nullifier mode, really dps is incredible low.... i think a set of 5 light drones could help. I dunno if add them to the hull or specifically to the covert sub. Also consider that using parasitic sub need drones (like a pilgrim).
CCP never answered to this thread.... i would like to know if they will keep an eye on the legion or we are simply speaking for nothing. |

Teras Lakkos
5
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Posted - 2011.12.15 16:18:00 -
[43] - Quote
Glad some (a lot?) of people think the legion is lacking in general and compared to other t3s.
Melina Lin wrote:PVE Legion suffers quite a bit from it's resist profile in my opinion. It is excellent at tanking Angels, the one rat type you really don't want to shoot lasers at. The natural prey of a Legion are Bloods and Sansha, but thanks to its thermal hole it is not that good at tanking them. Being a turret ship it is also badly affected by tracking disruption. Guess which rats use TDs? Bloods and Sansha of course....
I bet you are fitting 2 adaptives. Unfortunately you need to bite the bullet and fit 1 adaptive 1 em specific 1 therm specific. Much better balance of resists at the cost of another low slot (already a premium I know )
Edit: just my favorite quotes from the undestanding T3 pdf on the legion.
Quote:The legion has the most varied weapons layout available to any of the Strategic cruisers. Each subsystem provides something different to the others. Unfortunately in most cases, these fall short of where they should be at to make them worth the cost of the ship versus equivalent tech 1 / tech 2 hulls of the Legions sister ships.
Quote:Firstly, a general point about the Electronics systems of the Legion GÇô they have no low slots. For a Tengu this was not a major problem, as the bulk of its modules fit into the mid slots, but for a Legion, which relies on its low slots for doing both GÇÿTank and GankGÇÖ roles, the large number of mid slots actually hinders fitting. The real confusion with all of this comes when all of the other races each have at least 2 subsystems which add a low slot (Gallente have a low slot provided with all 4 systems) |

Julia Connor
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
9
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Posted - 2011.12.15 17:42:00 -
[44] - Quote
I do recognize the fact that the legion does suffer from pretty low armor resist values but it's not that bad when you start considering some factors. A ham legion can fit 5 launchers, 2 plates and get a disgustingly buffy 50K+ armor with HG slaves and all that good stuff.
|

Teras Lakkos
5
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Posted - 2011.12.15 18:10:00 -
[45] - Quote
Julia Connor wrote:I do recognize the fact that the legion does suffer from pretty low armor resist values but it's not that bad when you start considering some factors. A ham legion can fit 5 launchers, 2 plates and get a disgustingly buffy 50K+ armor with HG slaves and all that good stuff.
This is no different than with the other Tech III's, max out powergrid and you can fit a great buffer. Of course the tengu and shield loki suffer with no slaves but they do get a decent passive regen instead. After that the legion isn't on par with a buffer proteus or loki.
At no time did i suggest Legion has a buffer tanking problem, instead it is the near worthless covert sub, drone sub and constant chances to lose low slots.
Also, let me reiterate that the engineering subs make you choose between a 7th low and 6th turret. unlike the loki and proteus.
Try fitting that buffer with the laser sub....... power grid and dps issues will be a major issue. |

BearJews
YOU BETTER
5
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Posted - 2011.12.15 18:21:00 -
[46] - Quote
Legions pwn in incursions, they are awesome. |

Kodama Ikari
GOOD FELLAS Inc.
2
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Posted - 2011.12.16 16:03:00 -
[47] - Quote
Salvia Olima wrote:Give a 50m3 dronebay to the hull and it's done. only if you give the proteus 50m3 base as well. |

Teras Lakkos
6
|
Posted - 2011.12.18 01:02:00 -
[48] - Quote
Kodama Ikari wrote:Salvia Olima wrote:Give a 50m3 dronebay to the hull and it's done. only if you give the proteus 50m3 base as well.
not sure if serious....
since when can a proteus not fit a 50/50 drone bay or even 75/150? |

Mr Floydy
The Xenodus Initiative.
0
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Posted - 2011.12.18 15:35:00 -
[49] - Quote
Small drone by on the Legion would help it a lot at the moment. +25mb bandwidth on all the offensive subs would be fantastic. Would also give the drone subsystem a slightly more helpful total bandwidth as it's a joke at the moment.
I'd have no problems with the Proteus getting the same benefit too, bringing it to potentially 125mb with a full drone setup iirc.
Cloaky subsystem needs a complete overhaul! Swap the cap bonus for damage/rate of fire! |

The Djego
Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition
2
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Posted - 2011.12.18 17:12:00 -
[50] - Quote
Melina Lin wrote:PVE Legion suffers quite a bit from it's resist profile in my opinion. It is excellent at tanking Angels, the one rat type you really don't want to shoot lasers at. The natural prey of a Legion are Bloods and Sansha, but thanks to its thermal hole it is not that good at tanking them. Being a turret ship it is also badly affected by tracking disruption. Guess which rats use TDs? Bloods and Sansha of course.
Now look at the Tengu and how it is performing against it's natural enemy, the Guristas, in terms of tank, gank and Ewar mitigation. No wonder people are disappointed.
Still, I am happy with the legion. I have only one wish, +50 bandwidth and +15m3 bay on one of the engineering sub systems like the Proteus has. Hell, I would be happy with just the bandwidth, would make the drone sys so much better and actually worth using. Right now it's just a very expensive Pilgrim.
There is no problem tanking Blood\Sanshas, since her tracking is pretty bad and you can migrate next to all the damage by speed/sig tanking, similar like in a Zealot. Angels aren't a big time sink if you utilize Conflag good enough. Guristas on the other hand are, since they generally orbit in scorch ranges and have very good resists against it.
The tengu is preferred because you can have the same dps like the legion at 100km instead at 20km.
If anything a bit higher damage on the laser sub would be cool. Drones are pretty pointless, at least on the laser sub, since in any situation Legions are the preferred tool, drones are pretty unreliable compared to turret DPS(Plexing, WH, Incursion, AHAC etc.). It also could use a little more speed or less sig to work in this situations better.
BearJews wrote:Legions pwn in incursions, they are awesome.
It is just a zealot with a bit more EHP and gank. The reason this ships are used so much here is the simple point that lasers have the best applied at her respective range, the ships offer enough range to focus fire anything from anywhere in Vanguards, what makes the ships very effective against frigs, while fielding ok DPS against the rest of the targets(like 5-7 Minutes per OTAs in Legion gangs, if you are lucky you get away with shooting 3-4 Augas and 2 Deltoles, depending on the trigger in the 2. spawn).
Also you don't need to web/paint stuff this much with this hulls, since any of them are fitted around the idea to work fine without this. |

Moana Pozzi
Partito dell' Amore
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.18 18:45:00 -
[51] - Quote
Mr Floydy wrote:Small drone by on the Legion would help it a lot at the moment. +25mb bandwidth on all the offensive subs would be fantastic. Would also give the drone subsystem a slightly more helpful total bandwidth as it's a joke at the moment.
I'd have no problems with the Proteus getting the same benefit too, bringing it to potentially 125mb with a full drone setup iirc.
Cloaky subsystem needs a complete overhaul! Swap the cap bonus for damage/rate of fire!
Cap bonus is useful, but damage/rate of fire is MORE useful! 25mb of drones is a must especially in covert version.
m.
|

Mr Floydy
The Xenodus Initiative.
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.18 23:20:00 -
[52] - Quote
Cap bonus on the cloaky subsystem isn't even slightly useful. You just fit autocannons instead as there is absolutely no reason to use lasers with it. Chances are you'll have enough mids to easily fit a cap booster anyway with the subsystem slot layouts so a cap bonus isn't required.
The cap bonus has its benefits for pve but realistically you are unlikely have a pvp laser Legion without a cap booster. |

King Rothgar
Autocannons Anonymous
72
|
Posted - 2011.12.19 11:20:00 -
[53] - Quote
+1 to legion having too many mids and too few lows in most configurations. Also +1 to the lackluster offensive subsystems. It does half the dps of a proteus with the same basic fitting.
My thoughts on the covert subystem is they should probably give it 50 bandwidth, 150m3 of space and a 10% bonus to drone damage and HP per level bonus. This would allow for a pilgrim style setup with a couple guns in support (no doubt AC's since they'd be unbonused).
The laser offensive subsystem needs a 50m3 drone bay with 50 bandwidth. Both the proteus and loki have this same basic subsystem setup of 2 turret bonuses + a flight of 5x medium drones. The legion should certainly have it too. Yes it technically has one more bonus than those since it has the cap usage bonus but FFS that isn't a bonus. Just delete that bullshit. The HAM subsystem also needs a flight of 5x medium drones or a double dps bonus (5% RoF, 5% damage). Either option is reasonable.
The drone subsystem is just bad but it's also bad on the proteus. So I guess that makes it balanced. Seriously though, give both those ships an ishtar style drone bonus subsystem with the ability to fly a full set of heavies with loads of room for spares.
As for resistances, the legion is rock solid. t2/t3 amarr have the best armor resistance profile of any ship. This is simply beyond question. Not sure what some of you guys are smoking. Next I'll hear about minmatar t2/t3 having bad shield resistances. |

Takeshi Yamato
eXceed Inc. No Holes Barred
46
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Posted - 2011.12.19 12:33:00 -
[54] - Quote
+1 launcher to the Augmented Capacitor Reservoir so that HAM Legions actually have a choice in engineering subsystems. |

Teras Lakkos
8
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Posted - 2011.12.19 17:17:00 -
[55] - Quote
King Rothgar wrote:+1 to legion having too many mids and too few lows in most configurations. Also +1 to the lackluster offensive subsystems. It does half the dps of a proteus with the same basic fitting. My thoughts on the covert subystem is they should probably give it 50 bandwidth, 150m3 of space and a 10% bonus to drone damage and HP per level bonus. This would allow for a pilgrim style setup with a couple guns in support (no doubt AC's since they'd be unbonused). The laser offensive subsystem needs a 50m3 drone bay with 50 bandwidth. Both the proteus and loki have this same basic subsystem setup of 2 turret bonuses + a flight of 5x medium drones. The legion should certainly have it too. Yes it technically has one more bonus than those since it has the cap usage bonus but FFS that isn't a bonus. Just delete that bullshit. The HAM subsystem also needs a flight of 5x medium drones or a double dps bonus (5% RoF, 5% damage). Either option is reasonable. The drone subsystem is just bad but it's also bad on the proteus. So I guess that makes it balanced.  Seriously though, give both those ships an ishtar style drone bonus subsystem with the ability to fly a full set of heavies with loads of room for spares. As for resistances, the legion is rock solid. t2/t3 amarr have the best armor resistance profile of any ship. This is simply beyond question. Not sure what some of you guys are smoking. Next I'll hear about minmatar t2/t3 having bad shield resistances. 
Takeshi Yamato wrote:+1 launcher to the Augmented Capacitor Reservoir so that HAM Legions actually have a choice in engineering subsystems.
Agreed on all points. I doubt a drone bay would find its way onto the laser subsystem though if CCP actually fixed the legion.
|

Deviana Sevidon
Jades Falcon Guards
123
|
Posted - 2011.12.21 20:31:00 -
[56] - Quote
The Legion does certainly not need a buff. It can easily shoot to 50km with Scorch and does not have the same big resist holes any of the other T3 have.
I pity the fools who think Legions are useless. |

Kahz Niverrah
We Are So Troubled Everyone Runs Screaming Moar Tears
86
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Posted - 2011.12.21 20:34:00 -
[57] - Quote
Deviana Sevidon wrote:It can easily shoot to 50km with Scorch I call shenanigans. You're looking at a 32k-ish optimal with scorch. Unless you're talking about some hilarious, shield tanked, tracking enhancer, metastasis adjuster fail fit. I don't always post on the forums, but when I do, I post with my main. |

Teras Lakkos
10
|
Posted - 2011.12.21 23:02:00 -
[58] - Quote
Going with what Kahz and Deviana have said: The legion isnt bad. I never said it was bad. It just has some strange fitting issues and lackluster offensive subs. I have suggested that some combination of fixing these issues plus max low slots and 6 guns and/or drone bays would go a long way. |

FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks Petition Blizzard
440
|
Posted - 2011.12.21 23:16:00 -
[59] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:Takeshi Yamato wrote:1) Legion Chassis Optimization is useless. Everybody fits an AB or MWD on their Legions and with that the Fuel Catalyst gives better align times and higher top speed. This subsystem needs a different bonus. um...no... chasis opt sub is for when you fit a mwd, which should be always.
Not to mention, chassis opt loses LESS THAN 5% max speed even with a faction AB fitted...and gives you a much better base speed. I never fit fuel catalyst. |

FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks Petition Blizzard
441
|
Posted - 2011.12.21 23:22:00 -
[60] - Quote
Fon Revedhort wrote:river Zateki wrote: and the covert one made me cry. I got something like 200 dps with it.... Looks fine to me. What did you expect? Commit to risk just like a man and you will get proper DPS. That's the same whines Black Ops apologists spread around without realising the basics.
I can pull 500+ DPS out of a covert proteus. Of course that's at 5-6 km with blasters. |
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