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Teras Lakkos
2
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Posted - 2011.12.08 17:00:00 -
[1] - Quote
Lets get right to it.
Just delete drone sub and give us another laser one. No love for drones you say? Instead give assault sub and the new laser sub a drone bay. Current laser sub = zealot (no drones), new laser sub = navy omen (drones) and last time i checked sacrilege had a drone bay . Loki doesn't seem to have drone issues and we are 2nd in drones...
Covert sub: For the love of all things stop giving 1 bonus amarr ships cap use (everyone just fits autocannons and they work better ) plus your war on the low slots of the legion. Compare T3 dps with covert sub, who is the outlier?
And that does it. Too extreme? I don't think so. |
river Zateki
Dutch Squad Chained Reactions
2
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Posted - 2011.12.09 03:01:00 -
[2] - Quote
i just got a legion and got subs to 4/5....and yeah its kind of dissappointing. Especially the offensive subs. The HAM one is missing a bonus and the covert one made me cry. I got something like 200 dps with it.... |
Shivus Tao
Broski Enterprises Elite Space Guild
108
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Posted - 2011.12.09 03:17:00 -
[3] - Quote
HAM legion needs to be better than a HAM tengu.
Pulse legion needs to be miles ahead of the zealot to justify the additional cost. |
Illrean
Old Prospectors Roid Alliance for Harvesting
0
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Posted - 2011.12.09 04:49:00 -
[4] - Quote
river Zateki wrote:i just got a legion and got subs to 4/5....and yeah its kind of dissappointing. Especially the offensive subs. The HAM one is missing a bonus and the covert one made me cry. I got something like 200 dps with it....
Missiles are a secondary weapon for Amarr, that is why they don't have three bonuses on the missile sub. |
Nalha Saldana
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
43
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Posted - 2011.12.09 05:28:00 -
[5] - Quote
Illrean wrote:river Zateki wrote:i just got a legion and got subs to 4/5....and yeah its kind of dissappointing. Especially the offensive subs. The HAM one is missing a bonus and the covert one made me cry. I got something like 200 dps with it.... Missiles are a secondary weapon for Amarr, that is why they don't have three bonuses on the missile sub.
Thats the worst argument ever, why would they even bother designing one if its useless? |
Salvia Olima
FREE GATES HUN Reloaded
10
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Posted - 2011.12.09 07:36:00 -
[6] - Quote
Give a 50m3 dronebay to the hull and it's done. |
Twisted Ideals
ZERO T0LERANCE RAZOR Alliance
1
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Posted - 2011.12.09 11:54:00 -
[7] - Quote
am i the only one who has a big problem to understand what the Op is complaining about? anyone care to give me a translation? i like legions |
Jack Miton
Lapse Of Sanity Narwhals Ate My Duck
12
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Posted - 2011.12.09 13:02:00 -
[8] - Quote
Twisted Ideals wrote:am i the only one who has a big problem to understand what the Op is complaining about? anyone care to give me a translation? i like legions
legions are beyond awful for anything other than neuting. that clear enough for you? |
Twisted Ideals
ZERO T0LERANCE RAZOR Alliance
1
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Posted - 2011.12.09 13:05:00 -
[9] - Quote
Teras Lakkos wrote:Covert sub: For the love of all things stop giving 1 bonus amarr ships cap use (everyone just fits autocannons and they work better ) plus your war on the low slots of the legion. Compare T3 dps with covert sub, who is the outlier?
not clear yet... |
hiporiko
Obscure Star
2
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Posted - 2011.12.09 13:17:00 -
[10] - Quote
Mine works fine. |
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Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
1421
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Posted - 2011.12.09 13:43:00 -
[11] - Quote
Twisted Ideals wrote:Teras Lakkos wrote:Covert sub: For the love of all things stop giving 1 bonus amarr ships cap use (everyone just fits autocannons and they work better ) plus your war on the low slots of the legion. Compare T3 dps with covert sub, who is the outlier? not clear yet...
Not our fault you can't understand
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ GÇö Karath Piki |
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille Gallente Federation
15
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Posted - 2011.12.09 13:51:00 -
[12] - Quote
I am not a Legion pilot but a Proteus pilot and I will say here what a say in many of these threads, many of the strategic cruiser subsystems require balancing, even if you feel your version of the ship is fine some subsystems are just not used.
Although I cannot fly a Legion I often look to compare capability against the Proteus so have done a fair bit EFT warrioring Plus I have ok Amarr cruiser skills anyway.
Defensive
Adaptive Augmenter - 7.5% Cap reduction and at least 50% bonus to armour repair range, I understand the reluctance to replace logistics ships but this sub should at least be viable and it is the cap use and range that holds this back.
Offensive On paper you look to have a good spread of capability but some are just subpar. Generally I would up the drone compliment
Drone Synthesis Projector - 75mbit bandwidth
Liquid Crystal Magnifiers - 25mbut drone bay and bandwidth
Assault Optimisation - A third missile bonus probably explosion velocity
Electronics
Energy Parasitic Complex - donGÇÖt see this used a lot either so how about a further 25mbit drone bay and bandwidth. Combined with the Drone sub you now have 100mbit bandwidth, it can also be used to buff the other offensive subs but you are more likely to use the weapon hard points than neuts, still this would give a Laser Legion 50mbit bandwidth and give the covert sub some drones.
Prop Subs
Wake Limiter - Proteus has this, it is not used. The bonus needs to be more like the Inty bonus; it is already the slowest subsystem.
Those are my ideas anyway, whatever happens donGÇÖt just buff the legion look at all subsystems for all ships
|
Takeshi Yamato
ALA Biomedical
29
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Posted - 2011.12.09 13:53:00 -
[13] - Quote
1) Legion Chassis Optimization is useless. Everybody fits an AB or MWD on their Legions and with that the Fuel Catalyst gives better align times and higher top speed.
2) The Legion has generally bad slot layouts. You want 3-4 mids and MORE lows than mids when you have the choice. There are many subsystem combinations that violate this simple rule. I would like to see that changed. Despite several subsystems that imitate the Curse or Pilgrim, the Legion is a different beast: it never shield tanks and it doesn't need midslots to make use of TDs either.
3) HAM Legion compares poorly to a HAM Tengu.
4) Drone Legion has the horrible lone laser cap usage bonus that has never worked well for any ship. It's a really a shame. |
Kahz Niverrah
We Are So Troubled Everyone Runs Screaming Moar Tears
81
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Posted - 2011.12.09 14:50:00 -
[14] - Quote
Salvia Olima wrote:Give a 50m3 dronebay to the hull and it's done. Pretty much this. I don't always post on the forums, but when I do, I post with my main. |
Teras Lakkos
2
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Posted - 2011.12.09 16:03:00 -
[15] - Quote
Kahz Niverrah wrote:Salvia Olima wrote:Give a 50m3 dronebay to the hull and it's done. Pretty much this.
50/50 with assault sub and 25/25 on laser sub. Cov ops and drone sub will still suck but who cares they don't get used. My golden brick needs drones! |
Aestivalis Saidrian
SplitPush Mercantiles
7
|
Posted - 2011.12.09 16:14:00 -
[16] - Quote
Howabout some ******* bug fixes.
So, fun story, guys, if you have some free time. Keep a 10MN afterburner with the Fuel Catalyst. Now, swap subsystems. Any of them. Emergent Locus for Targeting Sub, whatever.
Now, go outside, turn on Afterburner. Last time I did this, the 10MN AB decided to eat 482 Cap, not 80.
As for subsystems...
I like the Laser Subsystem as is, though that's just me.
The Drone one REALLY needs a change badly. You get better DPS/Alpha using Arty then Beams. |
Elindreal
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
30
|
Posted - 2011.12.09 19:55:00 -
[17] - Quote
comparing ham legion to ham tengu isnt completely a 1:1 comparison
i fly a ham tengu and with the range bonus on the subsys it's excellent at floating around the edge of point range, outside of web so it can keep up its transversal because otherwise a webbed tengu = a dead tengu
in comparison, a ham legion suffers a bit less dps and less range, however its tank is much better. it is essential a ham brawler, like the other khanid ships. due to the lack of a range bonus, it must orbit much tighter, but on the bright side it doesn't suffer from shield tank sig radius bloating. as well, i personally figure the neut subsystem goes hand in hand with the ham subsys as medium neuts are just about the same range as the unbonus'd hams.
so now you have a close range neut/ham brawler, somewhat like the Vangel |
Jack Miton
Lapse Of Sanity Narwhals Ate My Duck
13
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Posted - 2011.12.10 00:20:00 -
[18] - Quote
Takeshi Yamato wrote:1) Legion Chassis Optimization is useless. Everybody fits an AB or MWD on their Legions and with that the Fuel Catalyst gives better align times and higher top speed. This subsystem needs a different bonus.
um...no... chasis opt sub is for when you fit a mwd, which should be always.
|
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
348
|
Posted - 2011.12.10 01:02:00 -
[19] - Quote
small default dronebay +1 make covops sub somehow useful
and please make it so that you can *unfit* subsystems WITHOUT killing the rigs (for all tech 3s). Currently you have to buy one hull (+ a full set of subsystems + one spare set) for every fitting you want to fly since tech II rigs lock the hull to a specific fitting -> swapping subs is useless in this case. a new bounty system for eve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=359105 You fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail to jump because you are cloaked |
1-Up Mushroom
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
244
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Posted - 2011.12.10 03:22:00 -
[20] - Quote
Yes, Give my precious Legion a boost!!! PLZ! 5 Senses In A Person... 4 Seasons In A Year... 3 Colors In A Stoplight... 2 Poles On The Earth... ONLY 1-UP MUSHROOM!!!-á If You Like My Sig, Like Me! |
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Barbie D0ll
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
28
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Posted - 2011.12.10 05:10:00 -
[21] - Quote
My wish lists? make the lazer sub better than the zealot, and give it another low |
Tanya Powers
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
456
|
Posted - 2011.12.10 05:40:00 -
[22] - Quote
Shivus Tao wrote:HAM legion needs to be better than a HAM tengu.
Noes.
Not until my hybrid sub become better than your laser sub witch would be has stupid has your legion being better with missiles than Tengu. |
Silverdaddy
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.10 18:54:00 -
[23] - Quote
A bit of a side topic, but I wanted to ask if anyone would care to share their legion incursion fits? I'm relatively new, and just want an idea of what to aim for... |
Jojo Jackson
Dead Red Eye
13
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Posted - 2011.12.10 19:10:00 -
[24] - Quote
IF you change the drone sub then remove this stupid anti-bonus of laser cap usage and give it a REAL bonus instead like RoF or Damage.
But NO remove!
It's the absolut best subsystem for complex and probing. [Legion] Damage Control II 2*Imperial Navy Heat Sink Republic Fleet Tracking Enhancer Centum A-Type Medium Armor Repairer
Gistum A-Type 10MN Afterburner Analyzer II Codebreaker II Omnidirectional Tracking Link II
Sisters Core Probe Launcher, Sisters Core Scanner Probe I Small Tractor Beam II Salvager II 4*Heavy Beam Laser II, Gleam M
Medium Anti-Thermic Pump II Medium Nanobot Accelerator II Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump II
Legion Defensive - Nanobot Injector Legion Electronics - Emergent Locus Analyzer Legion Offensive - Drone Synthesis Projector Legion Propulsion - Chassis Optimization Legion Engineering - Augmented Capacitor Reservoir
Hammerhead II x5 Hobgoblin II x5 MORE DRONES
All you need, probe launcher, hacking, analyser, salavger, 464 DPS, 300+ defens, up to 62 opti, can do all complex equal if Ghurista, Angels or Sansash. Why the hell can't I fitt capital repairs or shield booster on an Orca ... it's an CAPITAL ship! |
Julia Connor
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
6
|
Posted - 2011.12.10 20:13:00 -
[25] - Quote
Jojo Jackson wrote:IF you change the drone sub then remove this stupid anti-bonus of laser cap usage and give it a REAL bonus instead like RoF or Damage.
But NO remove!
It's the absolut best subsystem for complex and probing. [Legion] Damage Control II 2*Imperial Navy Heat Sink Republic Fleet Tracking Enhancer Centum A-Type Medium Armor Repairer
Gistum A-Type 10MN Afterburner Analyzer II Codebreaker II Omnidirectional Tracking Link II
Sisters Core Probe Launcher, Sisters Core Scanner Probe I Small Tractor Beam II Salvager II 4*Heavy Beam Laser II, Gleam M
Medium Anti-Thermic Pump II Medium Nanobot Accelerator II Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump II
Legion Defensive - Nanobot Injector Legion Electronics - Emergent Locus Analyzer Legion Offensive - Drone Synthesis Projector Legion Propulsion - Chassis Optimization Legion Engineering - Augmented Capacitor Reservoir
Hammerhead II x5 Hobgoblin II x5 MORE DRONES
All you need, probe launcher, hacking, analyser, salavger, 464 DPS, 300+ defens, up to 62 opti, can do all complex equal if Ghurista, Angels or Sansash.
PS: as it is now with this NOT bonus of cap usage for lasers ... it is even better with Autocannons -> this is PUR FAIL in designe.
Wait a min, you'll actually use medium autocannons for PVE on a non bonused hull?
|
Jojo Jackson
Dead Red Eye
14
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Posted - 2011.12.10 23:46:00 -
[26] - Quote
Julia Connor wrote:Wait a min, you'll actually use medium autocannons for PVE on a legion? To the guy saying Ham legion should be better than Ham tengu 2/10. You tried but it wasn't good enough.
When I'm in Ghurista or Angel space ... sure. I know Crystals are cheeper, but you get the absolut same DPS with autocannons <-> pulse or a bit less DPS but higher Alpha with arti <-> beams when using the Drone sub. So why not use the advantage of right damage types?
PS: if you find a gas-cloude .. remove the Weapons and Weapon Mods ... and use Cargo Expander + Gas Havesters ;).
And it's a SHAME, that TECH 3 Amarr works equal well (or better in some cases) with our anemys weapons as it does with our mighty Lasers!
So you can add the Legion Drone offensive to - Punisher - Maller - Prophecy - TECH 3 .... god damit ... so much FAIL DESIGNE!
When whill CCP give this ships 25% more BASE CAP (recharge) and a REAL bonus instead ??
They did a damn good job with the change of the Apocalypse ... now they need to fix the other ships with this FAIL ANTI BONUS! Why the hell can't I fitt capital repairs or shield booster on an Orca ... it's an CAPITAL ship! |
Adeena Torcfist
Dark Underground Forces
12
|
Posted - 2011.12.11 04:41:00 -
[27] - Quote
some things id like to see on the legion changed. [ 1. Ham's get some flight time bonus. i'd even be happier with 1 extra second flight time 2. Range on neuts, 5% would suffice for me. 3. Drone bay on some of these offensive subs.... 4. agility looked at, all armor rigs slow it down, so adjusting that, will help compensate it a little.
these are just my ideas, & i'd like to see them implemented to be quite honest.
|
Korvus Falek
Depraved Corruption
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.11 05:40:00 -
[28] - Quote
Elindreal wrote:comparing ham legion to ham tengu isnt completely a 1:1 comparison
i fly a ham tengu and with the range bonus on the subsys it's excellent at floating around the edge of point range, outside of web so it can keep up its transversal because otherwise a webbed tengu = a dead tengu
in comparison, a ham legion suffers a bit less dps and less range, however its tank is much better. it is essential a ham brawler, like the other khanid ships. due to the lack of a range bonus, it must orbit much tighter, but on the bright side it doesn't suffer from shield tank sig radius bloating. as well, i personally figure the neut subsystem goes hand in hand with the ham subsys as medium neuts are just about the same range as the unbonus'd hams.
so now you have a close range neut/ham brawler, somewhat like the Vangel
This is how I fit my Legion. I wish more Amarr ships used missiles tbh, I <3 my Sacrilege. |
YuuKnow
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
6
|
Posted - 2011.12.11 21:54:00 -
[29] - Quote
I just wish that they would switch the graphics of the Dissolution Sequencer with the graphics of the Emergent Locus Analyzer. The Emergent Locus Analyzer is the subsystem that's most useful to me, but also the one that looks the ugliest! Sometimes I want to inquip the Dissolution Sequencer just for the cool look.
How about it devs?
Neut and lasers also is a a difficult combination, so how about changing the Energy Parasitic Complex bonus to "10% reduction in cap use for energy neutralizers per level" or "5% bonus to capictor capacity per level" instead. |
Teras Lakkos
5
|
Posted - 2011.12.12 00:12:00 -
[30] - Quote
No matter the changes I think most people agree the legion is due for some love. |
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Aestivalis Saidrian
SplitPush Mercantiles
7
|
Posted - 2011.12.12 03:04:00 -
[31] - Quote
YuuKnow wrote:I just wish that they would switch the graphics of the Dissolution Sequencer with the graphics of the Emergent Locus Analyzer. The Emergent Locus Analyzer is the subsystem that's most useful to me, but also the one that looks the ugliest! Sometimes I want to inquip the Dissolution Sequencer just for the cool look.
How about it devs?
Neut and lasers also is a a difficult combination, so how about changing the Energy Parasitic Complex bonus to "10% reduction in cap use for energy neutralizers per level" or "5% bonus to capictor capacity per level" instead.
Nah, you use the Energy Parasitic Complex with HAMs or Nos + Lasers. |
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War DarkSide.
54
|
Posted - 2011.12.12 04:52:00 -
[32] - Quote
river Zateki wrote: and the covert one made me cry. I got something like 200 dps with it.... Looks fine to me. What did you expect? Commit to risk just like a man and you will get proper DPS. That's the same whines Black Ops apologists spread around without realising the basics. 2008, CCP Zulu(park): "command ships are fine as is" 2011, CCP Greyscale: "is the Nighthawk actually underpowered?" Nice progress, guys. |
Arazel Chainfire
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
25
|
Posted - 2011.12.12 05:33:00 -
[33] - Quote
Fon Revedhort wrote:river Zateki wrote: and the covert one made me cry. I got something like 200 dps with it.... Looks fine to me. What did you expect? Commit to risk just like a man and you will get proper DPS. That's the same whines Black Ops apologists spread around without realising the basics. What we expect is it to be able to match, or at least come near the proteus, the loki, and the tengu covops subsystems. Namely, the legion does about 200dps (which btw is less than a curse using just medium drones...), while those other 3 have viable fits that do between 400 and 500dps. Without faction mods (except ammo).
Also, seriously, wtf? A cloaky (attempt to gank) legion fit that is interdiction nullified and tries to maximize its dps by fitting 5 guns had more mids then lows. Seriously? This is an AMARR ship we're talking about here... the resists are horrid for doing a shield tank, and thats not even counting CPU issues, or the bonuses that it gets to armor tanking/buffer. A cloaky proteus has more lowslots. While doing double the dps. And having more EHP. Now I'm not saying that the legion needs to blow all these other t3's out of the water at it, but seriously, this is downright BAD. About the only way that one of these would be accepted in a fleet is if someone decided to run a T3 only cloaky gank fleet and brought it to neut things. If they were smart they would bring a curse for the neuting instead.
-Arazel |
Teras Lakkos
5
|
Posted - 2011.12.13 04:24:00 -
[34] - Quote
2 worthless and 2 "ok" offensive subs... check no drone bay on non worthless offensive subs... check (slightly?) lower dps than other t3 ships... check war on legion low slots... check deadspace armor reps much worse than deadspace shield reps.... check
ccp hates the legion.
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Jojo Jackson
Dead Red Eye
14
|
Posted - 2011.12.13 05:28:00 -
[35] - Quote
Teras Lakkos wrote:2 worthless and 2 "ok" offensive subs... check
True, Turret and Cloack subs are worthless as Turrets without even 25m-¦ dronebay is just stupid.
Assault sub is cool, Drone sub need a REAL bonus instead of this gimp 10% cap usage ****. Why the hell can't I fitt capital repairs or shield booster on an Orca ... it's an CAPITAL ship! |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army
156
|
Posted - 2011.12.13 05:58:00 -
[36] - Quote
I see lots of people saying that the Legion is pretty good. I see nobody saying why or providing fits that they believe to be competitive.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Teras Lakkos
5
|
Posted - 2011.12.13 22:31:00 -
[37] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:I see lots of people saying that the Legion is pretty good. I see nobody saying why or providing fits that they believe to be competitive.
-Liang
It doesn't use ammo in wormholes, only major use of the legion.
Wanting drones and useful offensive subs is part of the problem, but the FUNDAMENTAL problem with the legion is the slot allocation by subsystems. Despite what ccp seems to think, amarr boats need maximum low slots. The legion can fit up to 7 low slots. Pretty good right? Wait a second lets look at the subsystem options.
Assuming fitting for max low slots (7): the legion has 4 subsystem categories that can take away a low slot (there are only 5 categories ) How does this compare? Proteus (7 max lows ): 2 categories can take away a low Loki (6 max lows): 3 categories can take away a low (It is suppose to be able to field a shield tank!) Tengu: who cares it shield tanks
But wait there's more. Proteus can field max lows and 6 guns Loki can field max lows and 6 guns Legion can't field max lows and 6 guns
Dear CCP: fix my legion. |
Adeena Torcfist
Dark Underground Forces
13
|
Posted - 2011.12.14 01:21:00 -
[38] - Quote
on my fits, i have 1 too many low slots & 1 too few mid slots.
i want to swop my low slot for a mid slot plz.
but seriously, it need an overhaul.
im quite distgusted how no developers have popped in, & said we are aware of the issue with the legion, that it is sub par. We will look into it.
Silence speaks a thousand words to me..... |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army
159
|
Posted - 2011.12.14 01:28:00 -
[39] - Quote
Adeena Torcfist wrote:on my fits, i have 1 too many low slots & 1 too few mid slots. i want to swop my low slot for a mid slot plz. but seriously, it need an overhaul. im quite distgusted how no developers have popped in, & said we are aware of the issue with the legion, that it is sub par. We will look into it. Silence speaks a thousand words to me.....
Come on now - lets be realistic. The melodramatic QQ of how you can't believe a dev hasn't popped in to post an agreement with you over a 2 page thread in Ships & Modules is way, way, way over the top and out of line. That's the kind of petulant whining I'd expect to see in the WOW or Rift forums - not Eve Online.
Seriously, it needs help but its not catastrophically broken and nor does it somehow invalidate 25% of the characters in the game. If I don't like the Legion I'll fly a Tengu or a Proteus or a Loki or a ******* Armageddon. Save the QQ for something that deserves it.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Teras Lakkos
5
|
Posted - 2011.12.14 22:27:00 -
[40] - Quote
You can fit a legion that only has 3 lows (4 not including the interdiction sub).
Broken.
In all seriousness, if you actually want at least 6 lows you cant fit alot of the subsystems. Either you cherry pick for lows or pay the consequences. Whereas a proteus can pick from the 4 sub options in most cases without sacrificing low slots.
my guess is that CCP is trying to get the legion to emulate the recon ships and the sacrilege (ie small number of lows). Guess what this does for a ship that cant actually emulate these ships well but suffers the low slot axe anyways?
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Melina Lin
Universal Frog
10
|
Posted - 2011.12.15 08:39:00 -
[41] - Quote
PVE Legion suffers quite a bit from it's resist profile in my opinion. It is excellent at tanking Angels, the one rat type you really don't want to shoot lasers at. The natural prey of a Legion are Bloods and Sansha, but thanks to its thermal hole it is not that good at tanking them. Being a turret ship it is also badly affected by tracking disruption. Guess which rats use TDs? Bloods and Sansha of course.
Now look at the Tengu and how it is performing against it's natural enemy, the Guristas, in terms of tank, gank and Ewar mitigation. No wonder people are disappointed.
Still, I am happy with the legion. I have only one wish, +50 bandwidth and +15m3 bay on one of the engineering sub systems like the Proteus has. Hell, I would be happy with just the bandwidth, would make the drone sys so much better and actually worth using. Right now it's just a very expensive Pilgrim. |
Moana Pozzi
Partito dell' Amore
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.15 09:03:00 -
[42] - Quote
I use legion in covert/nullifier mode, really dps is incredible low.... i think a set of 5 light drones could help. I dunno if add them to the hull or specifically to the covert sub. Also consider that using parasitic sub need drones (like a pilgrim).
CCP never answered to this thread.... i would like to know if they will keep an eye on the legion or we are simply speaking for nothing. |
Teras Lakkos
5
|
Posted - 2011.12.15 16:18:00 -
[43] - Quote
Glad some (a lot?) of people think the legion is lacking in general and compared to other t3s.
Melina Lin wrote:PVE Legion suffers quite a bit from it's resist profile in my opinion. It is excellent at tanking Angels, the one rat type you really don't want to shoot lasers at. The natural prey of a Legion are Bloods and Sansha, but thanks to its thermal hole it is not that good at tanking them. Being a turret ship it is also badly affected by tracking disruption. Guess which rats use TDs? Bloods and Sansha of course....
I bet you are fitting 2 adaptives. Unfortunately you need to bite the bullet and fit 1 adaptive 1 em specific 1 therm specific. Much better balance of resists at the cost of another low slot (already a premium I know )
Edit: just my favorite quotes from the undestanding T3 pdf on the legion.
Quote:The legion has the most varied weapons layout available to any of the Strategic cruisers. Each subsystem provides something different to the others. Unfortunately in most cases, these fall short of where they should be at to make them worth the cost of the ship versus equivalent tech 1 / tech 2 hulls of the Legions sister ships.
Quote:Firstly, a general point about the Electronics systems of the Legion GÇô they have no low slots. For a Tengu this was not a major problem, as the bulk of its modules fit into the mid slots, but for a Legion, which relies on its low slots for doing both GÇÿTank and GankGÇÖ roles, the large number of mid slots actually hinders fitting. The real confusion with all of this comes when all of the other races each have at least 2 subsystems which add a low slot (Gallente have a low slot provided with all 4 systems) |
Julia Connor
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
9
|
Posted - 2011.12.15 17:42:00 -
[44] - Quote
I do recognize the fact that the legion does suffer from pretty low armor resist values but it's not that bad when you start considering some factors. A ham legion can fit 5 launchers, 2 plates and get a disgustingly buffy 50K+ armor with HG slaves and all that good stuff.
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Teras Lakkos
5
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Posted - 2011.12.15 18:10:00 -
[45] - Quote
Julia Connor wrote:I do recognize the fact that the legion does suffer from pretty low armor resist values but it's not that bad when you start considering some factors. A ham legion can fit 5 launchers, 2 plates and get a disgustingly buffy 50K+ armor with HG slaves and all that good stuff.
This is no different than with the other Tech III's, max out powergrid and you can fit a great buffer. Of course the tengu and shield loki suffer with no slaves but they do get a decent passive regen instead. After that the legion isn't on par with a buffer proteus or loki.
At no time did i suggest Legion has a buffer tanking problem, instead it is the near worthless covert sub, drone sub and constant chances to lose low slots.
Also, let me reiterate that the engineering subs make you choose between a 7th low and 6th turret. unlike the loki and proteus.
Try fitting that buffer with the laser sub....... power grid and dps issues will be a major issue. |
BearJews
YOU BETTER
5
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Posted - 2011.12.15 18:21:00 -
[46] - Quote
Legions pwn in incursions, they are awesome. |
Kodama Ikari
GOOD FELLAS Inc.
2
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Posted - 2011.12.16 16:03:00 -
[47] - Quote
Salvia Olima wrote:Give a 50m3 dronebay to the hull and it's done. only if you give the proteus 50m3 base as well. |
Teras Lakkos
6
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Posted - 2011.12.18 01:02:00 -
[48] - Quote
Kodama Ikari wrote:Salvia Olima wrote:Give a 50m3 dronebay to the hull and it's done. only if you give the proteus 50m3 base as well.
not sure if serious....
since when can a proteus not fit a 50/50 drone bay or even 75/150? |
Mr Floydy
The Xenodus Initiative.
0
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Posted - 2011.12.18 15:35:00 -
[49] - Quote
Small drone by on the Legion would help it a lot at the moment. +25mb bandwidth on all the offensive subs would be fantastic. Would also give the drone subsystem a slightly more helpful total bandwidth as it's a joke at the moment.
I'd have no problems with the Proteus getting the same benefit too, bringing it to potentially 125mb with a full drone setup iirc.
Cloaky subsystem needs a complete overhaul! Swap the cap bonus for damage/rate of fire! |
The Djego
Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition
2
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Posted - 2011.12.18 17:12:00 -
[50] - Quote
Melina Lin wrote:PVE Legion suffers quite a bit from it's resist profile in my opinion. It is excellent at tanking Angels, the one rat type you really don't want to shoot lasers at. The natural prey of a Legion are Bloods and Sansha, but thanks to its thermal hole it is not that good at tanking them. Being a turret ship it is also badly affected by tracking disruption. Guess which rats use TDs? Bloods and Sansha of course.
Now look at the Tengu and how it is performing against it's natural enemy, the Guristas, in terms of tank, gank and Ewar mitigation. No wonder people are disappointed.
Still, I am happy with the legion. I have only one wish, +50 bandwidth and +15m3 bay on one of the engineering sub systems like the Proteus has. Hell, I would be happy with just the bandwidth, would make the drone sys so much better and actually worth using. Right now it's just a very expensive Pilgrim.
There is no problem tanking Blood\Sanshas, since her tracking is pretty bad and you can migrate next to all the damage by speed/sig tanking, similar like in a Zealot. Angels aren't a big time sink if you utilize Conflag good enough. Guristas on the other hand are, since they generally orbit in scorch ranges and have very good resists against it.
The tengu is preferred because you can have the same dps like the legion at 100km instead at 20km.
If anything a bit higher damage on the laser sub would be cool. Drones are pretty pointless, at least on the laser sub, since in any situation Legions are the preferred tool, drones are pretty unreliable compared to turret DPS(Plexing, WH, Incursion, AHAC etc.). It also could use a little more speed or less sig to work in this situations better.
BearJews wrote:Legions pwn in incursions, they are awesome.
It is just a zealot with a bit more EHP and gank. The reason this ships are used so much here is the simple point that lasers have the best applied at her respective range, the ships offer enough range to focus fire anything from anywhere in Vanguards, what makes the ships very effective against frigs, while fielding ok DPS against the rest of the targets(like 5-7 Minutes per OTAs in Legion gangs, if you are lucky you get away with shooting 3-4 Augas and 2 Deltoles, depending on the trigger in the 2. spawn).
Also you don't need to web/paint stuff this much with this hulls, since any of them are fitted around the idea to work fine without this. |
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Moana Pozzi
Partito dell' Amore
0
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Posted - 2011.12.18 18:45:00 -
[51] - Quote
Mr Floydy wrote:Small drone by on the Legion would help it a lot at the moment. +25mb bandwidth on all the offensive subs would be fantastic. Would also give the drone subsystem a slightly more helpful total bandwidth as it's a joke at the moment.
I'd have no problems with the Proteus getting the same benefit too, bringing it to potentially 125mb with a full drone setup iirc.
Cloaky subsystem needs a complete overhaul! Swap the cap bonus for damage/rate of fire!
Cap bonus is useful, but damage/rate of fire is MORE useful! 25mb of drones is a must especially in covert version.
m.
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Mr Floydy
The Xenodus Initiative.
0
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Posted - 2011.12.18 23:20:00 -
[52] - Quote
Cap bonus on the cloaky subsystem isn't even slightly useful. You just fit autocannons instead as there is absolutely no reason to use lasers with it. Chances are you'll have enough mids to easily fit a cap booster anyway with the subsystem slot layouts so a cap bonus isn't required.
The cap bonus has its benefits for pve but realistically you are unlikely have a pvp laser Legion without a cap booster. |
King Rothgar
Autocannons Anonymous
72
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Posted - 2011.12.19 11:20:00 -
[53] - Quote
+1 to legion having too many mids and too few lows in most configurations. Also +1 to the lackluster offensive subsystems. It does half the dps of a proteus with the same basic fitting.
My thoughts on the covert subystem is they should probably give it 50 bandwidth, 150m3 of space and a 10% bonus to drone damage and HP per level bonus. This would allow for a pilgrim style setup with a couple guns in support (no doubt AC's since they'd be unbonused).
The laser offensive subsystem needs a 50m3 drone bay with 50 bandwidth. Both the proteus and loki have this same basic subsystem setup of 2 turret bonuses + a flight of 5x medium drones. The legion should certainly have it too. Yes it technically has one more bonus than those since it has the cap usage bonus but FFS that isn't a bonus. Just delete that bullshit. The HAM subsystem also needs a flight of 5x medium drones or a double dps bonus (5% RoF, 5% damage). Either option is reasonable.
The drone subsystem is just bad but it's also bad on the proteus. So I guess that makes it balanced. Seriously though, give both those ships an ishtar style drone bonus subsystem with the ability to fly a full set of heavies with loads of room for spares.
As for resistances, the legion is rock solid. t2/t3 amarr have the best armor resistance profile of any ship. This is simply beyond question. Not sure what some of you guys are smoking. Next I'll hear about minmatar t2/t3 having bad shield resistances. |
Takeshi Yamato
eXceed Inc. No Holes Barred
46
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Posted - 2011.12.19 12:33:00 -
[54] - Quote
+1 launcher to the Augmented Capacitor Reservoir so that HAM Legions actually have a choice in engineering subsystems. |
Teras Lakkos
8
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Posted - 2011.12.19 17:17:00 -
[55] - Quote
King Rothgar wrote:+1 to legion having too many mids and too few lows in most configurations. Also +1 to the lackluster offensive subsystems. It does half the dps of a proteus with the same basic fitting. My thoughts on the covert subystem is they should probably give it 50 bandwidth, 150m3 of space and a 10% bonus to drone damage and HP per level bonus. This would allow for a pilgrim style setup with a couple guns in support (no doubt AC's since they'd be unbonused). The laser offensive subsystem needs a 50m3 drone bay with 50 bandwidth. Both the proteus and loki have this same basic subsystem setup of 2 turret bonuses + a flight of 5x medium drones. The legion should certainly have it too. Yes it technically has one more bonus than those since it has the cap usage bonus but FFS that isn't a bonus. Just delete that bullshit. The HAM subsystem also needs a flight of 5x medium drones or a double dps bonus (5% RoF, 5% damage). Either option is reasonable. The drone subsystem is just bad but it's also bad on the proteus. So I guess that makes it balanced. Seriously though, give both those ships an ishtar style drone bonus subsystem with the ability to fly a full set of heavies with loads of room for spares. As for resistances, the legion is rock solid. t2/t3 amarr have the best armor resistance profile of any ship. This is simply beyond question. Not sure what some of you guys are smoking. Next I'll hear about minmatar t2/t3 having bad shield resistances.
Takeshi Yamato wrote:+1 launcher to the Augmented Capacitor Reservoir so that HAM Legions actually have a choice in engineering subsystems.
Agreed on all points. I doubt a drone bay would find its way onto the laser subsystem though if CCP actually fixed the legion.
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Deviana Sevidon
Jades Falcon Guards
123
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Posted - 2011.12.21 20:31:00 -
[56] - Quote
The Legion does certainly not need a buff. It can easily shoot to 50km with Scorch and does not have the same big resist holes any of the other T3 have.
I pity the fools who think Legions are useless. |
Kahz Niverrah
We Are So Troubled Everyone Runs Screaming Moar Tears
86
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Posted - 2011.12.21 20:34:00 -
[57] - Quote
Deviana Sevidon wrote:It can easily shoot to 50km with Scorch I call shenanigans. You're looking at a 32k-ish optimal with scorch. Unless you're talking about some hilarious, shield tanked, tracking enhancer, metastasis adjuster fail fit. I don't always post on the forums, but when I do, I post with my main. |
Teras Lakkos
10
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Posted - 2011.12.21 23:02:00 -
[58] - Quote
Going with what Kahz and Deviana have said: The legion isnt bad. I never said it was bad. It just has some strange fitting issues and lackluster offensive subs. I have suggested that some combination of fixing these issues plus max low slots and 6 guns and/or drone bays would go a long way. |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks Petition Blizzard
440
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Posted - 2011.12.21 23:16:00 -
[59] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:Takeshi Yamato wrote:1) Legion Chassis Optimization is useless. Everybody fits an AB or MWD on their Legions and with that the Fuel Catalyst gives better align times and higher top speed. This subsystem needs a different bonus. um...no... chasis opt sub is for when you fit a mwd, which should be always.
Not to mention, chassis opt loses LESS THAN 5% max speed even with a faction AB fitted...and gives you a much better base speed. I never fit fuel catalyst. |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks Petition Blizzard
441
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Posted - 2011.12.21 23:22:00 -
[60] - Quote
Fon Revedhort wrote:river Zateki wrote: and the covert one made me cry. I got something like 200 dps with it.... Looks fine to me. What did you expect? Commit to risk just like a man and you will get proper DPS. That's the same whines Black Ops apologists spread around without realising the basics.
I can pull 500+ DPS out of a covert proteus. Of course that's at 5-6 km with blasters. |
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FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks Petition Blizzard
441
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Posted - 2011.12.21 23:26:00 -
[61] - Quote
My primary complaint with my PvE Legion is being locked into the damage types of laser. The tank is fine and I don't have the low slot problems others complain about. Being an amarr ship, I'd never complain about more, but vOv
Also, it's all T2 mods, I don't even have the pimp fittings some of you do |
Alexa Coates
LNTC
24
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Posted - 2011.12.21 23:26:00 -
[62] - Quote
If we're boosting t3's, lets make the proteus' drone bay not made of pure failium. It should be able to spit out 5 heavies, not be restricted to mediums. I mean, whats the damn point? Love my Gallente Federation Navy ships! |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks Petition Blizzard
441
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Posted - 2011.12.21 23:38:00 -
[63] - Quote
Deviana Sevidon wrote:It can easily shoot to 50km with Scorch.
If by "easily" you mean "with all its rig slots occupied by Medium Energy Locus Coordinator" then yes, you're right.
While EFTing a 50km-ranged Legion for this post, I observed something regarding the low slot complaints: My legion build has 6 lows and 4 mids. it is capable of seven if I were to switch to a CRM, but I'd be giving up a turret hardpoint to do so. Basically the choice is between tank and gank, and I find that perfectly acceptable. I have no complaints on the slot configuration.
Covops sub needs to carry a modest bonus to lasers to be more in line with other T3s. |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks Petition Blizzard
441
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Posted - 2011.12.21 23:38:00 -
[64] - Quote
Alexa Coates wrote:If we're boosting t3's, lets make the proteus' drone bay not made of pure failium. It should be able to spit out 5 heavies, not be restricted to mediums. I mean, whats the damn point?
Proteus deals enough DPS as is. No.
Also, 4/10 for sounding almost serious. |
Istvaan Shogaatsu
Guiding Hand Social Club
44
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Posted - 2011.12.22 01:08:00 -
[65] - Quote
I support any changes to make the Legion suck less. My original advice of 7 turrets stands. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army
201
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Posted - 2011.12.22 01:11:00 -
[66] - Quote
A special request on T3 balance: Please increase the cargo bay size that comes with the active tanking subsystems. Please.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Teras Lakkos
10
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Posted - 2011.12.22 01:18:00 -
[67] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:A special request on T3 balance: Please increase the cargo bay size that comes with the active tanking subsystems. Please.
-Liang
Of course Augmented plating gets the bigger cargo bay on the legion... |
Beaches
1
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Posted - 2011.12.22 20:40:00 -
[68] - Quote
I'd like the covert sub to be fixed, every other t3 can make a viable cloaky hunter. The legion can squeeze out ~260 dps or something? A thrasher can out DPS that.
I don't need it to be absolutely lethal, but please have it pose some threat. Right now, it is just depressing. Unfair really when you compare it to the others, obviously the proteus/loki but when the Tengu performs better as a cloaky hunter? Just balance it please. |
Kahz Niverrah
We Are So Troubled Everyone Runs Screaming Moar Tears
87
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Posted - 2011.12.22 20:42:00 -
[69] - Quote
Beaches wrote:I'd like the covert sub to be fixed, every other t3 can make a viable cloaky hunter. The legion can squeeze out ~260 dps or something? A thrasher can out DPS that. Pilgrims have nearly identical DPS to a cloaky legion at 1/4th the price and with way better e-war. I don't always post on the forums, but when I do, I post with my main. |
Mr Floydy
The Xenodus Initiative.
0
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Posted - 2011.12.23 13:36:00 -
[70] - Quote
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:Not to mention, chassis opt loses LESS THAN 5% max speed even with a faction AB fitted...and gives you a much better base speed. I never fit fuel catalyst. I think if you are using 10mn AB/MWD its a no brainer. But from memory a 100mn AB works massively better with the fuel cat - I think it makes a huge difference to the align time?
25mb drones + bigger cargo bay on the active tank subsystem would be awesome :) |
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Adeena Torcfist
Dark Underground Forces
15
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Posted - 2011.12.23 19:04:00 -
[71] - Quote
Id still like to see a small increase in neut range, a small increase in missile flight time, drones would most deffinatly help,.as.well as an agility buff.
As mentioned by liang, a cargo bay increase would be welcomed. The fact a developer hasnt even put their input in, upsets me. I just think there not going to fix it, just like the broken black ops.... :-( |
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