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Mission ganking thread #1,257,635 (but bear with me)

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wolf Gallente	Posted - 2006.12.05 21:34:00 - [1] Well, first off, I'm not going to offer a solution to this issue so if that's what you want to see I suggest you stop reading now rather than waste your time. Still here? Hello I'm a low sec mission runner, and I've been reading some of the debate over the last week or so about scanning people in missions. Whilst I'm obviously interested, the Eve forums tend to be very polar in the views expressed and I think the reality more often than not sits somewhere in the middle so I took the view of 'see how it goes in reality'. The last week where I live (Murethand) has been fairly peaceful to me, I've escaped a couple of Gate Camps but that's just the norm. However, tonight I've had people popping into my deadspace pockets as tourists (testing scanning I guess) and then 'it' happened. A new mission, had been there under three minutes when a gang of 5 ships (2x Astarte, 1x Absolution, 1x Eos, 1x Arbitrator) all from the same corp warp in on me. Now I'm not totally stupid, was away from the entry point and aligned so I managed to get out of my mission space but to a stupid location if I'm honest and they just followed me and tore my Faction Raven a nice new one before I could start safespot hopping... I can afford the loss, etc. etc. and loss is part of the game, so be it. It has however really brought home to me how easy to abuse the new scanning is. A background summary first: - I've been in Eve since day one of retail, but have taken a few breaks, so only have 39 mill skillpoints. - I enjoy mission running (Yes, I know, Freak), I moved to low sec to stop me getting bored (and for the 10.8k LP per mission). - I have no beef with PvP, it's what Eve is about and I have a second account that has dabbled in piracy (not greifing, piracy). - I've been gate ganked (once with everything I owned) but I accept that as a risk of travel. Now, in my opinion (and it's only an opinion, I'm not saying I'm 100% right), whichever way you cut it, the ability for a group of five PvP rigged ships to warp into a mission runners deadspace pocket within 3 minutes, close him down before he can get out (or follow him if he does)and take him out because he chose to fit his ship to complete the mission smacks of a game breaking change. I have no desire to go back to running missions in high sec, I enjoy low sec mission running but am unwilling to lose close to 2 billion isk of ship each night, mining is not my bag, neither is organised industry. I have a real life outside of Eve that means at most I can put a couple of hours in every other night or so and so would be little use to anyone else. This is the first time since Eve was released where I feel CCP has done something that genuinely stops me doing what I wish to do with Eve, and that's not a nice feeling. Sure, 'adapt' and all that, but seriously, for people like me, just how much adapting can we do to be able to fight 5+ PvP specialised ships when we're tanking a mission as well? If you're still reading, I thank you, for I've not said anything new I fear, but I feel better for saying it. Surely there must be a compromise solution? Even the die hard griefers must realise that this, long term, is not good for them either? Yes, low sec mission running was no more dangerous than high sec if you were careful and that needed addressing but now it's no risk PvP for those who choose to do it, and that's as much of a problem as the first one. So, does anyone wanna train a well skilled player in the finer arts of PvP? Fly safe people, and let the 'move along, nothing new to see here' flames start...
Sobach Gallente Fourth Circle	Posted - 2006.12.05 21:56:00 - [2] very well put.
Lord Artemis Filthy Wyrm	Posted - 2006.12.05 22:36:00 - [3] Yes well put for the most part. I think in essence the OP as well as many others feel similar in that we want the risk and the thrill of danger in low-sec. We just don't want risk vs. reward so imbalanced in favor of pirate/mission jumpers OR to mission runners. Both need a fair start as far as game mechanics and then they can use their wit and experience to beat the other . Going too far either way is what the problem is. _____________________________ ... this space for rent ...
Helos Prank Carpe DM	Posted - 2006.12.05 23:34:00 - [4] I aggre with you. Of curse PvPers shuold be able to find us :) its part of the fun (well, when it happened to me I wasnt laughing but still). But the time it takes is something silly... But, well... We do pay for being in 0.0... It pays better and is sometimes dangerous. Heres a Thought: How about putting a bubble in the Warp in Zone? Aint tries it myself but wouldnt that buy some time? Sure, they get the wonderfull Bubblµy, but we live to fight another day? Flame if Im wrong :¦ I will...(no thats not it) I Shall!!(crap not a good one...) Booom!(ahhh thats the one)
Miss Overlord Gallente Ferrum Pugnus New Eve Order	Posted - 2006.12.06 00:27:00 - [5] cant deploy bubbles in low sec - 0.0 yeah but basically low sec mission runners are now minced meat. either rewards need to go up or more players will consolidate into larger low sec corps and alliances. These posts represent my personal views and not those of my corp or alliance. These do not reflect offical alliance or corp views This is a disclaimer
ScreamingLord Sutch	Posted - 2006.12.06 02:25:00 - [6] I'm torn with this one. On the one side, I was one of the people who chased you unsucessfully the other night with a small gang (sleppie, vaga, domi) On the other, I agree, mission runners in lowsec have become simple targets. I would hate to see scanning nerfed because it is an excellent combat enabler in wars and 0.0 when people just safespotted and were invulnerable. I do recognize that the feeding frenzy that is happening to mission runnners currently is not sustainable and will chase people out of lowsec. I don't have an answer, it needs to be elegant enough to protect the mission runner if he is smart, proactive and aware At the same time quick accurate scanning must stay to stop the safespotting smacktalkers of old from feeling safe
Ghoest	Posted - 2006.12.06 02:43:00 - [7] Originally by: ScreamingLord Sutch I'm torn with this one. On the one side, I was one of the people who chased you unsucessfully the other night with a small gang (sleppie, vaga, domi) On the other, I agree, mission runners in lowsec have become simple targets. I would hate to see scanning nerfed because it is an excellent combat enabler in wars and 0.0 when people just safespotted and were invulnerable. I do recognize that the feeding frenzy that is happening to mission runnners currently is not sustainable and will chase people out of lowsec. I don't have an answer, it needs to be elegant enough to protect the mission runner if he is smart, proactive and aware At the same time quick accurate scanning must stay to stop the safespotting smacktalkers of old from feeling safe Ummm all a smack talker has to do is go to station thanks to warp to 0 Wherever you went - here you are.
Nez Perces Amarr Black Spot.	Posted - 2006.12.06 03:00:00 - [8] Edited by: Nez Perces on 06/12/2006 03:07:56 Originally by: wolf Now I'm not totally stupid, was away from the entry point and aligned so I managed to get out of my mission space but to a stupid location if I'm honest and they just followed me and tore my Faction Raven a nice new one before I could start safespot hopping... Nice post .. you make some good arguments and it would all fit together nicely... except for one thing..... If you had been pre-aligned to a station you would have survived? Unless I'm missing something.
Dahak2150 HellBrothers Industries	Posted - 2006.12.06 03:13:00 - [9] Yeah, the new scanning system is insanely easy. I've never, ever used probes before, and, within 5 minutes of deploying my first one, warped to and stole an SSed Iteron III full of isogen. Don't ask me why it was there, but it was, and I'm now quite pleased with myself. If you're on IE, pretend this is transparent while you get a better browser.
Nez Perces Amarr Black Spot.	Posted - 2006.12.06 03:15:00 - [10] Originally by: Dahak2150 I've never, ever used probes before, and, within 5 minutes of deploying my first one, warped to and stole an SSed Iteron III full of isogen. Don't ask me why it was there, but it was, and I'm now quite pleased with myself. .. that made me laugh ...
Miss Overlord Gallente Ferrum Pugnus New Eve Order	Posted - 2006.12.06 04:35:00 - [11] Originally by: Dahak2150 Yeah, the new scanning system is insanely easy. I've never, ever used probes before, and, within 5 minutes of deploying my first one, warped to and stole an SSed Iteron III full of isogen. Don't ask me why it was there, but it was, and I'm now quite pleased with myself. oh look ive been to quite systems and finding endless amounts of tech 2 drones and other goodies These posts represent my personal views and not those of my corp or alliance. These do not reflect offical alliance or corp views This is a disclaimer
Mnengli Noiliffe	Posted - 2006.12.06 06:32:00 - [12] Originally by: wolf The last week where I live (Murethand) has been fairly peaceful to me, I've escaped a couple of Gate Camps but that's just the norm. After reading this, every pirat on the forums will visit your once quiet system. And btw, certain retarded nubs (probably including those who ganked you) actually believed that you can't scan for ships without recon launcher. Now that it's been seeded, number of pirate scanners will multiply. Only now the fun begins. What you have seen since revelations was just a prelude.
Miss Overlord Gallente Ferrum Pugnus New Eve Order	Posted - 2006.12.06 06:36:00 - [13] regular scan probes hvae worked up till now ( they will however scan eac other out to in busy systems) These posts represent my personal views and not those of my corp or alliance. These do not reflect offical alliance or corp views This is a disclaimer
Naran Darkmood Gallente	Posted - 2006.12.06 07:06:00 - [14] Originally by: Mnengli Noiliffe Originally by: wolf The last week where I live (Murethand) has been fairly peaceful to me, I've escaped a couple of Gate Camps but that's just the norm. After reading this, every pirat on the forums will visit your once quiet system. And btw, certain retarded nubs (probably including those who ganked you) actually believed that you can't scan for ships without recon launcher. Now that it's been seeded, number of pirate scanners will multiply. Only now the fun begins. What you have seen since revelations was just a prelude. And with the recon launcher it's even getting faster... I went to high sec for this reason. Only thing that comes to mind, is to use the same game mechanics that are you for exploration for scanning mission deadspace pockets. Originally by: Jiekon From what i`m aware of, reading the game rules, it's not against any rules to mine
Pantheon Lea Farmer Boyz	Posted - 2006.12.06 07:21:00 - [15] Originally by: Nez Perces Nice post .. you make some good arguments and it would all fit together nicely... except for one thing..... If you had been pre-aligned to a station you would have survived? Unless I'm missing something. You might have, Level 4 missions is not that easy, sometimes you have to move arround a little... Pantheon Lea
wolf Gallente	Posted - 2006.12.06 07:37:00 - [16] Thank you for the interesting responses so far. ScreamingLord Sutch, hi. I enjoyed the other night with your gang because I expect danger at a gate and had the chance to get away. What you did is part and parcel of the Eve experience for me, and expected Nez Perces, yes, you're right, had I been aligned to an object such as a station I likely would have survived, which I alluded to in the original post when saying I warped to a stupid location. However, for every three times I manage to get to a station there is likely to be one group that manages to lock me down too quick, and seeing as how I had three seperate visits to my missions last night in the space of 90 minutes I think the balance is still too far in favour of people wanting an easy kill. Even if you said it was one in ten I could still expect to lose an expensive ship every 2-3 days, and I don't make the kind of money in eve to support losing like that. There is also the fact that although I may have survived, the mission space was compromised and so the mission has to be declined, with all the negative connotations that go with it. Doing that 2-3 times a week would soon hurt. Mnengli, Murethand is not quiet, 20-30 people is the norm, I just said it had been quiet for me, PvP wise. It has multiple top quality kill agents, I'm sure I've not let any secret out by naming it.
Nez Perces Amarr Black Spot.	Posted - 2006.12.06 07:48:00 - [17] Edited by: Nez Perces on 06/12/2006 07:55:05 Originally by: Pantheon Lea Originally by: Nez Perces Nice post .. you make some good arguments and it would all fit together nicely... except for one thing..... If you had been pre-aligned to a station you would have survived? Unless I'm missing something. You might have, Level 4 missions is not that easy, sometimes you have to move arround a little... I've done all the missions there are to do .. tyvm, even post-kali. Some times you do have to be moving around.... and there are two types of moving around you do in a mission. 1. Moving towards the next gate in the mission. 2. Moving away from npc groups to minimise dps. Both types involve moving away from the warp in point, which automatically gives you more time to respond should hostiles warp in. Either way, if you really are in motion, one should keep an eye on where the directionally closest station is. However, the bulk of missioning involves motionless tanking, i'd estimate around 60% of combat missioning time is spent just sitting around tanking npc's (this does not include looting, where you do spend all your time moving, but its best to do looting either with a an alt hauler or to bring out a rigged up salvager for that job). So, in closing.. there is no real reason why a mission runner will not be far away from the warp in point, with his eye on the station and ready to warp to it at a moments notice. This precludes the small percentage of time you are scrambled... any mission runner worth his salt will however kill scrambling rats the first. Thats the moments when you are truly vulnerable, but constitute perhaps 2% of your missioning time. Tbh there is only one valid argument in this whole probe scanning issue.. the fact that it is automatically attracting pirates to low sec, to try their luck. I do think that with this change, CCP should up the rewards for mission runners as an incentive to stick it out. The smart mission runner should, however, not die any more often than he did pre-kali. What is gonna happen though is that completing missions might take longer overall, due to the increased pirate traffic volume.
Nez Perces Amarr Black Spot.	Posted - 2006.12.06 07:52:00 - [18] Originally by: wolf There is also the fact that although I may have survived, the mission space was compromised and so the mission has to be declined, with all the negative connotations that go with it. Doing that 2-3 times a week would soon hurt. Why would you have to decline? Yeah you might miss out on the bonus reward, but the mission stays open for nearly a week. Ill be perfectly honest, I dont think the rewards for low sec missions are worth the hassle even pre-kali. And now its got worse ... it is harder but not for the reasons everybody keeps going on about, its harder because there are more pirates about, not because they have an "I-win" button. When CCP up the rewards significantly I might move to low sec to do my missions. But I guarantee you I won't be dying to no pirates... and if I do it will be own silly fault.
Royaldo Old Farts The Phantom Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.12.06 08:09:00 - [19] the only help i can think of atm is move to a place with alot anti pirates and 1 intel channel for the area. so have a chat with cva and use the lvl4 q20 agent in ziriert. 12.7k lp was max i used to get there.
exarienne	Posted - 2006.12.06 08:25:00 - [20] Originally by: Nez Perces Either way, if you really are in motion, one should keep an eye on where the directionally closest station is. However, the bulk of missioning involves motionless tanking, i'd estimate around 60% of combat missioning time is spent just sitting around tanking npc's (this does not include looting, where you do spend all your time moving, but its best to do looting either with a an alt hauler or to bring out a rigged up salvager for that job). [/quote I do not know what ship/config u use but i have to move 90% of time to have any chance of survival in lvl4, and i do just some of them - most are to risky anyway. Of course i can retrain to use crazily tanked raven or dominix and just spam drones/missiles but not every mission runner must like that approach. Aligning to the station is a great idea , especially when all mission rats are beetwen warp-in point and the station. Originally by: Nez Perces Tbh there is only one valid argument in this whole probe scanning issue.. the fact that it is automatically attracting pirates to low sec, to try their luck. I do think that with this change, CCP should up the rewards for mission runners as an incentive to stick it out. The smart mission runner should, however, not die any more often than he did pre-kali. What is gonna happen though is that completing missions might take longer overall, due to the increased pirate traffic volume. [/quote Try reading the forums - even highsec mission runners have large scale problems with pirates initiating mass agro or stealing items required for mission completion. Pirates camping lowsec mission gates are not easy to avoid also - i've lost over two weeks earnings to such a surprise.
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.12.06 09:58:00 - [21] Originally by: wolf There is also the fact that although I may have survived, the mission space was compromised and so the mission has to be declined, with all the negative connotations that go with it. Doing that 2-3 times a week would soon hurt. I think you'll find that 2-3 times a NIGHT might be more like it before we are finished. --- I don't mind you disagreeing with me. Just don't say I don't have the SKILLS to comment until you've looked at them.
Pakokkie Caldari Under Heavy Fire	Posted - 2006.12.06 10:44:00 - [22] Hi there, Simple solution. Maybe anyone else already thought it up but... Make the mission gates accesible only to the one doing the mission and anyone who is in gang with him. Its ok if they can get to your warp gate and try to gank you there or find your safespot. But when you are in a mission well, your just meat to pirates now. On the other hand. This could be one of ccp's moves to get people to work together. Regards, Pakokkie
Beebopa Lula	Posted - 2006.12.06 10:46:00 - [23] Originally by: Nez Perces Edited by: Nez Perces on 06/12/2006 03:07:56 Originally by: wolf Now I'm not totally stupid, was away from the entry point and aligned so I managed to get out of my mission space but to a stupid location if I'm honest and they just followed me and tore my Faction Raven a nice new one before I could start safespot hopping... Nice post .. you make some good arguments and it would all fit together nicely... except for one thing..... If you had been pre-aligned to a station you would have survived? Unless I'm missing something. I was prealigned when I was done over and I warped instantly, but it didn't help. For near instawarp to really work you need to be moving towards the prealigned object as well. This is good mission practice anyway when things are tight, but sometimes you have to sit still at the beginning, otherwise you risk aggroing other NPC packs (especially those on the path of alignment) which can also kill you as sure as a bunch of pirates.
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.12.06 10:51:00 - [24] Originally by: Pakokkie Make the mission gates accesible only to the one doing the mission and anyone who is in gang with him. That goes too far the OTHER way...missions were never 100% safe before, it's just that now instead of a pirate turning up one mission out of ten, it's more likely they will turn up...well...on every mission as far as I can see. I don't think any amount of reward can compensate for this...it just made missions undoable unless you hire a gang of mercenaries to guard your gate...and you might just as well get ganked and pay the ransom at that point...the costs are about the same. --- I don't mind you disagreeing with me. Just don't say I don't have the SKILLS to comment until you've looked at them.
Pakokkie Caldari Under Heavy Fire	Posted - 2006.12.06 11:11:00 - [25] Well, I hope they make it a bit more difficult for pirates to find mission runners. Thing is, after the patch with the new probing the only safe place in eve is docked or with an active cloak ;-)
Sertonine	Posted - 2006.12.06 12:06:00 - [26] Buy an alt that can fly an apoc and use smartbombs park it behind the accelaration gate turn on all smartbombs
Mogubu League of Gentlemen O X I D E	Posted - 2006.12.06 12:55:00 - [27] ^^ That would be funny! Get fraps! --- Buy mjolnir javelins or rage infernos? Eve-mail me!
Sibleue	Posted - 2006.12.06 13:08:00 - [28] Hi I agree it is getting unpleasant that anyone can ôvisitö you in deadspace. Got already bothered by ôvisitorsö before and managed to escape. Yesterday I was destroyed in Melmaniel, by the same gang that killed you (same ships), while I was still fighting NPCs. Since I am fighting at close range and needed to get to a spawn, I wasnÆt perfectly aligned. Some might say it is my faultà Got 16million xp and have been trying nearly everything possible in the game and finally settled for mission running. With few hours available weekly, I have no time for corpo and mining is boring. I understand the fun of PVP (especially for the wining side) and expect to loose a ship to pirate once in a while. I am anyway getting afraid that the ôonce in a whileö will happen every second playing evening. If it keeps going like this I wonÆt be able financially to keep buying new ships and fittings. Beside that getting 50% chance being destroyed/poded each time you play isnÆt much fun anymore. What is left to me is: Going back to high sec. Buy isk with dollars to sustain my costs Train for capital ship to use them in mission. Join a corpo that secured a mission running area. Make missions in an empty system and runaway when somebody appears in local. Go mining until CCP will change it As you I donÆt expect CCP to change anything but wanted express my disappointement.
Derelyk	Posted - 2006.12.06 13:39:00 - [29] here's my idear for a solution.. Here's the way I think ccp should handle the interfering with missions... The key thing to remember is, the mission runner is doing the mission for somebody. the griefer isn't interfering with the player, he's directly interfering with the corporation that the mission runner is doing the mission for. In effect the mission jumper(s) is causing direct harm to the corporation that has hired the mission runner. So give the guy(s) jumping the mission a red flag to all members of the mission runners corp, and all members of the corporation (npc) that the mission runner is doing the mission for. If the guy breaks the mission, steals the objective make the red flag last 4 times as long (or whatever). That keeps the risk of getting jumped by a mission runner, and provides risk to the guy jumping the mission.
Vasiliyan PAX Interstellar Services Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.12.06 13:42:00 - [30] I suspect the way forward will be for corps/alliances to "take over" lowsec mission running systems, and then start operating NBSI policies there. So, friendly mission runners would be protected but pay corp tax, known pirates would show red to them in local, and the corp tax would fund some PvPers to respond to pirates. Note that the pirates can't safespot either, so either they sit in station or get ruthlessly probed down.
Zar Dim Minmatar Anus Horriblis	Posted - 2006.12.06 14:17:00 - [31] Originally by: Grey Area Originally by: Pakokkie Make the mission gates accesible only to the one doing the mission and anyone who is in gang with him. That goes too far the OTHER way...missions were never 100% safe before, it's just that now instead of a pirate turning up one mission out of ten, it's more likely they will turn up...well...on every mission as far as I can see. In general I like new scanning. And it's great that miners could be found in low sec. But 180secs, seems kinda fast too me. So Pakokkie suggestion seems fine to me, with a bit of traning ganker could find deadspace pocket and check it, with potential for some nice bounty (ie mission runner :) ). But it will take quite some time to find the deadspace using exploration probes and will require some effort from gank squad. Which is nice from my point of view. They'll be able to find non-DS missions anyway so it'll level things up anyway. The only way to avoid this scenario is to organize local defence. And why it's ineed nice solution, there are 'local militia' in my sytem, but it's quite 'bulky' and not always working solution.
Thoris Levithar Gallente Gadget Factory	Posted - 2006.12.06 14:39:00 - [32] Perhaps it would be possible to add an alarm function to the ships scanner: if a player ship (and/or probes?) comes into scanner range, you get a sound to warn you. Probably wouldn't help against all threats (cloaked ships?). But as has been said, its very difficult to scan for hostiles every few moments, and an alarm function might help a lot.
Solant Minmatar C A P S U L E	Posted - 2006.12.06 15:19:00 - [33] I fail to see how this is ANY different than being caught mining at an asteroid field in lowsec. The only difference, is that carebear PVE pilots have always assumed they were 100% safe in mission deadspaces. Well, you aren't. Lowsec is not safe, ever, and people need to start realizing that. Honestly, I've gsnked a few people in missions since Revelations too- and every single one of them was WAY to slow or afk and had well over a minute before I got to them and scrambled them. If you aren't paying enough attention in your missions to notice a hostile player warping in and afterburning over to you, you deserve to lose your ship. PVE was too easy, anyway.
Solant Minmatar C A P S U L E	Posted - 2006.12.06 15:21:00 - [34] Originally by: Thoris Levithar Perhaps it would be possible to add an alarm function to the ships scanner: if a player ship (and/or probes?) comes into scanner range, you get a sound to warn you. Probably wouldn't help against all threats (cloaked ships?). But as has been said, its very difficult to scan for hostiles every few moments, and an alarm function might help a lot. Why do you need a sound? you can easily tell whena player warps in, there are several visual cues that every player in the game knows about that give any hostile ship away. What next, a built in autopilot jump feature that goes off anytime someone gets within 10au of you? You realize this is a PVP game?
Zar Dim Minmatar Anus Horriblis	Posted - 2006.12.06 15:25:00 - [35] Edited by: Zar Dim on 06/12/2006 15:26:10 When you mine you are usually stay alligned and do not fight with hordes of ebil NPC, which could scramble you as well. + missions ships tends to cost 'slightly' more the average covetor or retriever. That post from Solant was another perfect example of clueless person post.
Solant Minmatar C A P S U L E	Posted - 2006.12.06 15:25:00 - [36] Originally by: Sibleue Hi I agree it is getting unpleasant that anyone can ôvisitö you in deadspace. Got already bothered by ôvisitorsö before and managed to escape. Yesterday I was destroyed in Melmaniel, by the same gang that killed you (same ships), while I was still fighting NPCs. Since I am fighting at close range and needed to get to a spawn, I wasnÆt perfectly aligned. Some might say it is my faultà Got 16million xp and have been trying nearly everything possible in the game and finally settled for mission running. With few hours available weekly, I have no time for corpo and mining is boring. I understand the fun of PVP (especially for the wining side) and expect to loose a ship to pirate once in a while. I am anyway getting afraid that the ôonce in a whileö will happen every second playing evening. If it keeps going like this I wonÆt be able financially to keep buying new ships and fittings. Beside that getting 50% chance being destroyed/poded each time you play isnÆt much fun anymore. What is left to me is: Going back to high sec. Buy isk with dollars to sustain my costs Train for capital ship to use them in mission. Join a corpo that secured a mission running area. Make missions in an empty system and runaway when somebody appears in local. Go mining until CCP will change it As you I donÆt expect CCP to change anything but wanted express my disappointement. Bring a friend? Bring a friend in a pvp ship? Bring a friend with a cheap tech1 frigate and a few webifiers? There are plenty of ways to counter 1 or 2 pirates with relative ease. They don't have anything if they don't manage to scramble you.
Solant Minmatar C A P S U L E	Posted - 2006.12.06 15:25:00 - [37] Originally by: Zar Dim When you mine you are usually stay alligned and do not fight with hordes of ebil NPC, which could scramble you as well. + missions ships tends to cost 'slightly' more the average covetor or retriever. Staying aligned in missions is extremely easy and anyone that doesn't already do it should- pvp or not.
Zar Dim Minmatar Anus Horriblis	Posted - 2006.12.06 15:30:00 - [38] Originally by: Solant Staying aligned in missions is extremely easy Stopped reading after that one.
Mogubu League of Gentlemen O X I D E	Posted - 2006.12.06 15:43:00 - [39] Originally by: Solant I fail to see how this is ANY different than being caught mining at an asteroid field in lowsec. ... Been some time since you did a lvl4 mission? What we should have is the rats in the mission switching targets, scramming the pirates and promptly blowing them up. I mean, tanking a lvl4 aggro is easy, right? Maybe you can even kill a few rats and get some iskies! --- Buy mjolnir javelins or rage infernos? Eve-mail me!
Egil Kolsto	Posted - 2006.12.06 16:01:00 - [40] Originally by: Solant Originally by: Zar Dim When you mine you are usually stay alligned and do not fight with hordes of ebil NPC, which could scramble you as well. + missions ships tends to cost 'slightly' more the average covetor or retriever. Staying aligned in missions is extremely easy and anyone that doesn't already do it should- pvp or not. Solant, please read the post by tiller about farming LP. NO, staying aligned in missions is NOT easy. Infiltrated outpost you spend the entire time IN the complex to move to the first gate, then the last BS-drone (it is roughly 2.5M loot in alloys for a single kill). Why do you do missions? To make ISK, well, you have already stopped looting to cut down on mission time, you are busy toggling target to mazimize your DPS, trying to keep 3 targets that drones can kill and 3-4 that is best taken out with cruises. You always move towards the gate to make sure you are able to enter gate at the time the last rat dies. It pretty much goes without saying that YES, you can align, just like everyone else under the sun but at a price. 1. Your isk-intake is reduced 100% guarantee 2. To further avoid risk, you now warp out in low sec to avoid pirates..? Now you loose BOTH the time bonus and the ability to even get a next mission. Might as well suggest we jump clone and run missions somewhere else. The solution I see is pretty simple, you "rent" space in 0.0 from a pretty solid alliance and run missions there, for the huge LP bonus; OR run missions in semi-high sec.
Dragon Lord	Posted - 2006.12.06 16:10:00 - [41] hmm where exactly does it say eve is a pvp game? oh yeh it doesnt its a game for pve, pvp, mining, manufacturing oh and trading. All essential things in eve. As mentioned people will join an alliance and run missions in 0.0, join a corp or alliance thats locked down a low sec mission running area or move to high sec. So all those pirates loving the scan probs are not going to have much fun when they can find knowone to gank. Guess they will have to resort to high sec greifing instead. Also those nice fat CNR's with faction fittings arent gonna do low sec missions solo, unless the pilots insaine so guess if you do gank someone the gear u get wont be worth much. Maybe if pirates jump into ur mission, ships from the faction u work for warp in to attack them at least then scanning wouldnt be an I WIN button
Sobach Gallente Fourth Circle	Posted - 2006.12.06 16:36:00 - [42] funny how this thread is spiraling down into the abyss that so many other similiar threads have gone before after page 1, when someone who obviously has little knowledge of how the mission running side of the game works comes in and start talking like a jack*** - bring friends? sure, I mean, why not? the mission already pays little as it is, why not split it 2 or maybe even 3 way? Hell, why don't we just stop doing misisons altogether since it'd be a pointless waste of time, as we can probably make better money mining in high sec? besides, a 3-man team is still no match for the kind of roaming gank squad the OP encountered. What should we do? bring a whole fleet to do a mission? - stay aligned at all times? on some missions it's fine, others not so quite feasible. But then you would know that if you know anything about missions. - mission should be regarded the same as mining in belts? yea, except the two are fundamentally different parts of the game, with their own unique conditions and requirements for success. If you can't tell how the two are different, then I really don't know what to say. By your logic, I should be able to blow your ship up inside a station and steal your BPOs and items because, hey, nothing should be 100% safe in EVE.
wolf Gallente	Posted - 2006.12.06 17:25:00 - [43] I've been sat at work today mulling this one over and I have to admit to being a bit stumped. The conversation at work ended up 'way out there' and the idea I and Draxer came up with needs a little explaining. The logic is: Not everyone has people to group with when missioning, the mechanics are not in place to make group missioning viable, not everyone wants to/is able to group anyway. It would be nice to have a 'solo' friendly solution in addition to any grouping methodologies. Scanning has changed for a reason, and I doubt CCP will go back on that reasoning and nerf it significantly, if at all. Therefore we need a solution that mitigates somewhat the risk of a sound ganking, whilst forcing the mission runner to adapt. I'm not sure I'm 100% comfy with this btw but... Mission runners, through the agent they work for, can 'hire' goons. Let's say a max of 4 ships, and these are limited in a way that provides as much balance, both for the mission runner and the potential ganker, as possible (the detail of that has not been thought through but is 'easy' in principle). Now, the cost of these would be dependant upon standings and would be hired until the mission completes/expires. The cost could be something non financial like a percentage of the loyalty points/sec status gained forcing the mission runner to weigh up their worth. The mission runner would need to use a new low slot linking module to provide a 'command link' with the squad. This would force the mission runner to adapt/slightly compromise his set up. They would spawn as you enter the mission area but would do nothing to help you, merely sit inactive.The squad would automatically target and aggress any player that entered the mission space and locked the mission runner to whom they are linked. They would NOT be designed to be able to defeat the opponent, more to provide enough of a hassle and inconvenience to the aggressor to balance the fact that the mission runner is disadvantaged by having NPC rats to fight. The squad could be made unscannable or very hard to scan so that the aggressor took a risk each time he jumps in as to whether they were there or not and also what damage they would deal (to stop them fitting the opposite of the mission damage/tank). I have my concerns over this, and I'm not sure how well it would sit with the Eve Ethos but it looks like it would be a (admittedly complex) workable solution that left scanning alone, did not reduce the risk of being jumped, but evens up the odds of fighting fairly once jumped. I'm sure there are big holes in this idea so feel free to critique it but please, let's try to keep this thread on the intelligent, and interesting path it has followed so far
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2006.12.06 17:49:00 - [44] Originally by: Solant I fail to see how this is ANY different than being caught mining at an asteroid field in lowsec. The only difference, is that carebear PVE pilots have always assumed they were 100% safe in mission deadspaces. This is a very good point. I think you're absolutely right that many people were spoiled by how things were in RMR, and that mission runners have to make a mental change. But...missions are different than mining or ratting. There are far more rats, a lot more chaos, and a lot more attention involved. And there are real consequences to being chased off or to failure even if you don't get blown up. With the other activities, you're just looking at opportunity costs. So I think deadspaces should be several orders of magnitude harder to find than miners or ratters. It shouldn't be trivial to find them, nor should they ever be "safe". * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
marcopollo	Posted - 2006.12.06 17:53:00 - [45] I think youve addressed two main points - the difference in numbers ie mission runner v player pirates, and the one sided additional aggro the mission runner takes from the rats. Player pirates overcome one sided aggro regularly by working in player groups ie sentry fire. You are proposing an NPC group for the solo player which sounds fair in as much the player pirates would receive some aggro. What about also a player option ie players running security (ie in your gang) for the mission runner getting some decent payment to make it worth their while. They could get the same LP's as the runner when the mission was completed (bounties are pretty rubbish and not really the best reward). It could be an incentive for players to actually group together. Its definately a difficult one !!!!
Thoris Levithar Gallente Gadget Factory	Posted - 2006.12.06 18:04:00 - [46] Edited by: Thoris Levithar on 06/12/2006 18:05:45 Edited by: Thoris Levithar on 06/12/2006 18:04:25 Originally by: Solant Why do you need a sound? you can easily tell whena player warps in, there are several visual cues that every player in the game knows about that give any hostile ship away. What next, a built in autopilot jump feature that goes off anytime someone gets within 10au of you? You realize this is a PVP game? When a pirate warps in, its usually too late. What I'm talking about is a warning that goes off if a player enters the scan range, which may be well beyond visibility. For example...if you look at missions, you will notice that often you warp like 10000km or so from the warpgate leading into the deadspace. So if the scanner is set to about that range, and a hostile player arrives at the warpgate, you would get the warning BEFORE you can see him warp in. Not much time to react but perhaps enough... It wouldn't auto-warp you to safety. The only thing this would do is to free the player from looking at his scanner every few moments. If you have ever flown a mission you certainly know that things can get hectic there, and you can miss things that enter your scan range. EDIT: perhaps you're right that this should be limited in range, maybe to those 10000km or whatever. Certainly not good if it went off when a pirate is still 10AU away :)
Joanne Prescott	Posted - 2006.12.06 18:36:00 - [47] WEll its pushed me out of low security for sure. Had a really close one yesterday, i was lucky that the gankers targeted my Tank rather than my heavy hitter first which was able to warp out. i was aligned anyway for a station and both characters survived. Fair enough says you. The problem is they disrupted the mission and destroyed the mission rats also taking the required element i needed to complete it. Loss of standing and all that etc etc. So one failed mission later and i decide to try enlisting some support from the regular local runners so set up some resistance to the PC pirates - wouldnt have taken much to set up a trap for them and give em a bloody nose by a determined gang of heavy hitters and some ECM. Was anyone willing to help themselves??? - NO! All whinging in local but not willing to do anything about it. Either way i am forced to leave i have invested too much in my agent running to risk it against PC pirates on missions where i have no choice but to fit for the mission rather than fit for the possibilty of gankage.
WrathchildeVOTF	Posted - 2006.12.06 19:26:00 - [48] Originally by: Miss Overlord cant deploy bubbles in low sec - 0.0 yeah but basically low sec mission runners are now minced meat. either rewards need to go up or more players will consolidate into larger low sec corps and alliances. I honestly don't see any way to increase the rewards to the point where you can afford to lose a well fit mission ship once a night.
WrathchildeVOTF	Posted - 2006.12.06 19:35:00 - [49] Originally by: Thoris Levithar Edited by: Thoris Levithar on 06/12/2006 18:05:45 Edited by: Thoris Levithar on 06/12/2006 18:04:25 Originally by: Solant Why do you need a sound? you can easily tell whena player warps in, there are several visual cues that every player in the game knows about that give any hostile ship away. What next, a built in autopilot jump feature that goes off anytime someone gets within 10au of you? You realize this is a PVP game? When a pirate warps in, its usually too late. What I'm talking about is a warning that goes off if a player enters the scan range, which may be well beyond visibility. For example...if you look at missions, you will notice that often you warp like 10000km or so from the warpgate leading into the deadspace. So if the scanner is set to about that range, and a hostile player arrives at the warpgate, you would get the warning BEFORE you can see him warp in. Not much time to react but perhaps enough... It wouldn't auto-warp you to safety. The only thing this would do is to free the player from looking at his scanner every few moments. If you have ever flown a mission you certainly know that things can get hectic there, and you can miss things that enter your scan range. EDIT: perhaps you're right that this should be limited in range, maybe to those 10000km or whatever. Certainly not good if it went off when a pirate is still 10AU away :) Interesting idea, but would it not be simpler just to give the missioner an audible "ping" when any scan probe enters scan range of him? That way the mission runner is warned that danger may be near, but still has to work out his own solution.
exarienne	Posted - 2006.12.06 20:53:00 - [50] Any warning system would be a good start but it does not solve a problem with pirates taking critical loot from the mission. Locking some missions just for as runner has only limited sense. I think it might be good idea for some harder missions, when locking off both pirates and allies might be an acceptable balance. But total safety is rather too much. Locking all gates might be temporary solution, till a better one is employed. Making deadspaces hard too find - or more speciffically making it hard to find the first gate seems to be really good idea, and it leaves much space for tweaking towards a good balance. Some interference from a faction/corp that gives mission is logical but IMO extremly hard to do right(and fast). For example Caldari navy attacks me on sight, but it didn't stop mem from travel through their spaca and making business there (with basic ships - no covert ops). Anti-pvp "hirelings" might be effective , but the idea goes very far from current EVE mechanics and gamestyle. I was a lowsec mission runner myself till revelation took effect( some ratting, mining, courier and trading done ocassionally). For now i started a very long skill training and wait for any response to the problem. TOTAL silence on the CCP side is quite annoying considering significant number of threads like that one on the forums. Is this game going deathmatch way??
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2006.12.06 21:41:00 - [51] Originally by: exarienne TOTAL silence on the CCP side is quite annoying considering significant number of threads like that one on the forums. Oveur mentioned today that TomB was evaluating the situation. On a side-note, while I think this is an important problem, I'd hate for "#of threads" to become a significant factor in Dev response compared to other things. There are lots and lots of stupid and redundant threads on these forums about things that should be non-issues. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Zed Nash	Posted - 2006.12.06 22:01:00 - [52] Originally by: wolf stuff They got me too today, same system, likely same folks, they've been there for a few days raising kain. 3 minutes into the mission, fighting off about 8 cruisers and 3 battleships, and in they warp, never had a chance. Solution is simple, lock deadspace gates to everyone but the runner and gang-mates. Problem solved, and probes don't lose their viability in the field. Until then, I'll be one of those heading back to highsec for running missions, and leave lowsec for PvP. "Maya Rkell is my online stalker."
Hamfast Gallente	Posted - 2006.12.06 22:26:00 - [53] I was thinking about this, but while I am not a Low-Sec mission runner, I do enjoy running missions, and I assume the High Sec Missions will soon become totally useless as the griefers do more to ruin my fun. While I will admit those that play in low-sec space should be more open to harassment by other players, there needs to be a way to allow them to play the game as well. When we look at today's active scanning, the best example I can think of is a Submarine and Sonar... one sub can use sonar to find another sub, this can be done with passive sonar, that is very short range, and uses the target sub's own noises to locate it... the other method is active sonar... if you watch the movie "Hunt for Red October" the request to "Verify range to target, 1 ping only" is just that, active sonar, and it shows as much where you are as it shows where your target is... These new scanner probes are more "Active Sonar" and while the target (mission runner) in this case may not have any way to tell the range to target (gain intelligence) from the scanner, but there is no reason why the scanner's scans could not be detected. Passive Sonar is what you have around a gate or base where you see the [ ] that is another players ship... very short range... you want to sneak up, you have to get there without the help of probes. This means the Mission runner will know that the area is being scanned, may not know by who or why, but that the area is being scanned, they can then react as they see fit... if they have the proper equipment then they can gain the same intelligence from the probe as the person that fired it in the first place... In low-sec space this means the hunter may just find themselves the hunted... have fun... in High-sec space, it lets us know that our time to finish a mission may be limited at best, that if we do not get that cargo pod, kill that important rat or what ever if you wish to get credit for the mission... or at least get the time bonus. Noob in training...
Magnus Card Caldari	Posted - 2006.12.06 23:18:00 - [54] Originally by: ScreamingLord Sutch I don't have an answer, it needs to be elegant enough to protect the mission runner if he is smart, proactive and aware At the same time quick accurate scanning must stay to stop the safespotting smacktalkers of old from feeling safe So wait, you are saying that because you choose not to ignore safespotting smacktalkers that all the low sec mission runner have to suffer? No, quick accurate scanning of dead space doesn't need to stay. <---- mods please fix the pic
HE MAN	Posted - 2006.12.07 01:41:00 - [55] Edited by: HE MAN on 07/12/2006 01:43:26 thank you CCP for supporting griefers and killin' our fun !!! Im in a small corp, running low sec missions mostly solo. Can anyone pls tell me how i shall withstand the massive dmg incoming from NPC rats + several gangs focussing at my ship ???? guess no cause i fly no Titan for mission so here my questions : 1. how can i stay alive during mission & finish it ? 2. how can i compensate the massive ISK losses from daily death ? 3. how can i safe mission loot from rats ? 4. if i want to avoid that and go back into high sec pls tell me if i wasted nearly 1 year of skill + tons of ISK for capital ships (cant be used in high sec) 5. where lies the advantage pls now in a MUST HAVE pvp ? or should i say RPK ? 6. how many days do i need for a mission i have to warp out all the time (if i make it out alive) ? man this is just senseless lol some peoples have not the time or just no interest in pvp, sure we all live with the risk at travels but get overwhelmed from 20 + ships in a mission daily is only a bad joke and believe me, if this wont change im not the only one who throws Eve out of the window after around 3 years of playing am i really playing 3 years just to see now i have to go back on smaller ship back into some noob system just to avoid the 100 % daily death + mission fail !? perhaps we could remove concord next from the game cause "it's never safe in space" however i hope this will change back immediately best regards HM
ScreamingLord Sutch	Posted - 2006.12.07 03:21:00 - [56] Originally by: Zed Nash Originally by: wolf stuff Solution is simple, lock deadspace gates to everyone but the runner and gang-mates. Problem solved, and probes don't lose their viability in the field. Until then, I'll be one of those heading back to highsec for running missions, and leave lowsec for PvP. This is pretty much instancing and I'm against it. I don't pretend to have the answers but it's swung from one extreme to the other. A happy medium needs to be found. Mission runners were to all intents and purposes invulnerable in their deadspace pockets. Now they are sitting ducks. I'm sure CCP will come up with a solution that is workable, it will just take time.
El Huapo	Posted - 2006.12.07 03:47:00 - [57] 3 year player, low sec mission runner. There has not been one content patch from Castor right on through Kali that has been designed for the PVE player. At every turn there has been some sort of obstacle for the mission runner to overcome because of content that is aimed at another part of the game. Low security mission runners are ALREADY subjected to a higher risk when carrying out their operations when they have to jump through hostile space and gatecamps. I have lost ships along the way and I never whined about it. It is a cost associated with doing business in low security space. There IS a problem with the new system and is UNBALANCED in favor of the people jumping into someone else's mission. I remember the days when pirates camped missions because the spawn points were always the same. Now we have come full circle. Why bother doing a mission at all when you can just jump into someone elses, kill their ship(s) easily and with assistance from NPC's, take over the mission, kill the rats, take the items and the only person who loses significant standing is the mission runner who can't complete the mission. Traders should not be forced to Manufacture. PVP'ers should not be forced to run missions, just as mission runners should not be forced to PVP. My opinions: All level 4 and above missions should be moved to low security. People should not be fighting BS sized rats in Empire. Deadspace should only be for the mission runner and his/her gang. Mission runners are at risk when travelling to and from the agent to the Deadspace locations - many times it's multiple jumps through gate camps. Complexes require a key to advance through gates. Why not missions? Long range probes should not be able to penetrate Deadspace thereby only revealing the location of the gates, not the ships contained within the Deadspace. If you want to know what is in there, then you must use a different scan. If mission runners have to be at risk of someone jumping into their mission then I would suggest the follwing: The scan probes can only find the gate and reveals nothing about the ships in the Deadspace. Once there, they must hack their way into the gate which warps them to a different and randomly selected point within the Deadspace. They are then at risk of aggroing a spawn when they warp in. If the mission is hacked, no standing loss for the mission runner for not completing the mission. I agree with the OP, that this is a SERIOUS problem that drastically changed missions as they have stood for a long time. Not everyone plays Eve to PVP and their money pays for service just as much as anyone else in this game.
rubico1337 Caldari Nova Defense Industries	Posted - 2006.12.07 06:55:00 - [58] maybe an idea is to set directional scanner to 360, .1 AU or so, and set it to find player controled ships, when one pops up you know someone is entering the deadspace.
Murukan Minmatar The Priory Shroud Of Darkness	Posted - 2006.12.07 07:55:00 - [59] scan probes show up on scanner. If you see pirates in local just scan frequently, it's very easy to make the scanner box small so it doesn't take up much space on your screen. Low sec is supposed to be dangerous, before it was pretty easy to just solo lvl 4's and make tons of isk with very little risk if you have half a brain. Now ccp made it so you have to use the other half Manlove by Zaphod Jones
HE MAN	Posted - 2006.12.07 09:14:00 - [60] Originally by: Murukan scan probes show up on scanner. If you see pirates in local just scan frequently, it's very easy to make the scanner box small so it doesn't take up much space on your screen. Low sec is supposed to be dangerous, before it was pretty easy to just solo lvl 4's and make tons of isk with very little risk if you have half a brain. Now ccp made it so you have to use the other half did ya realize that the new scanning was brought on for the new exploration feature ? I dont believe it was supposed to help gank squads to destroy mission runners work. It's impossible to finish a mission now and that cant be the way. Like said before, travelling in low sec is risky enough and i dont see why mission runner has to deal with cheap griefing now day for day. I thought first this would be an exploit but unfortunately GM confirmed it's not.... unbelievable... Im not happy with eve mutating into some cheap shooter, if i want RPK i go and play a shooter...
Kustos	Posted - 2006.12.07 09:45:00 - [61] Originally by: El Huapo Traders should not be forced to Manufacture. PVP'ers should not be forced to run missions, just as mission runners should not be forced to PVP. My opinions: All level 4 and above missions should be moved to low security. People should not be fighting BS sized rats in Empire. Deadspace should only be for the mission runner and his/her gang. Mission runners are at risk when travelling to and from the agent to the Deadspace locations - many times it's multiple jumps through gate camps. Complexes require a key to advance through gates. Why not missions? Long range probes should not be able to penetrate Deadspace thereby only revealing the location of the gates, not the ships contained within the Deadspace. If you want to know what is in there, then you must use a different scan. If mission runners have to be at risk of someone jumping into their mission then I would suggest the follwing: The scan probes can only find the gate and reveals nothing about the ships in the Deadspace. Once there, they must hack their way into the gate which warps them to a different and randomly selected point within the Deadspace. They are then at risk of aggroing a spawn when they warp in. If the mission is hacked, no standing loss for the mission runner for not completing the mission. I agree with the OP, that this is a SERIOUS problem that drastically changed missions as they have stood for a long time. Not everyone plays Eve to PVP and their money pays for service just as much as anyone else in this game. Completely agree with El Huapo, just so can be slightly equated chances for agentrunner vs piRats.
Jack Icegaard	Posted - 2006.12.07 10:14:00 - [62] Missions is my primary activity in EVE right now, and i kind of like the higher risk of getting unwelcome company while on missions. I like some extra excitement. There has to be balance though. This is my suggestion how to sort this: When accepting a mission it should be possible to decide how many ships the jump gates should accept per 10 minutes. So if you run solo you set the gate to one ship per 10 minutes and you only risk to encounter one pirate ten minutes after you entered the room. If you are two, you set the gate to two per 10 minutes and now two pirates can pay you a visit, and so on. Thus, you still cant run missions in impunity while you don't face the risk of getting ganked.
Varis Jericho Fraction	Posted - 2006.12.07 11:19:00 - [63] how about this. Currently, when you try to warp into a "deadspace area", you are automatically warped to the acceleration gate. Hoe about make that the pirate warps to the edge of the deadspace area (ie - a few grid's over from where the mission is) - or they have to find the actual acceleration gate by probes and warp directly to it. Also - taking "mission critical" loot should get you criminally flagged/or loose you standing to the mission giving corp. also - fix the damn aggro mechanics.
Lockheed19	Posted - 2006.12.07 12:46:00 - [64] I too don't have any answers, but several have mentioned some good interim solutions. I say 'interim', because I believe that players ganking mission-runners is not what CCP had in mind with the new probing abilities for Exploration. However. It must be commented upon that CCP should have foreseen this happening and should deal with it as soon as they possibly can. And btw, Solant? Nowhere in the entire game description of EvE does it state categorically that this is a purely PvP game. So stop with your 'I'm a PvP'er and therefore have more of a say than you' type cr@p. Do you really think that EvE would be anything like it is with only PvP'ers playing it? Come on, think about it for longer than three seconds eh?
Leandro Salazar Aeon Industries Confederation of Independent Corporations	Posted - 2006.12.07 13:04:00 - [65] Originally by: Hamfast I was thinking about this, but while I am not a Low-Sec mission runner, I do enjoy running missions, and I assume the High Sec Missions will soon become totally useless as the griefers do more to ruin my fun. While I will admit those that play in low-sec space should be more open to harassment by other players, there needs to be a way to allow them to play the game as well. When we look at today's active scanning, the best example I can think of is a Submarine and Sonar... one sub can use sonar to find another sub, this can be done with passive sonar, that is very short range, and uses the target sub's own noises to locate it... the other method is active sonar... if you watch the movie "Hunt for Red October" the request to "Verify range to target, 1 ping only" is just that, active sonar, and it shows as much where you are as it shows where your target is... These new scanner probes are more "Active Sonar" and while the target (mission runner) in this case may not have any way to tell the range to target (gain intelligence) from the scanner, but there is no reason why the scanner's scans could not be detected. Passive Sonar is what you have around a gate or base where you see the [ ] that is another players ship... very short range... you want to sneak up, you have to get there without the help of probes. This means the Mission runner will know that the area is being scanned, may not know by who or why, but that the area is being scanned, they can then react as they see fit... if they have the proper equipment then they can gain the same intelligence from the probe as the person that fired it in the first place... In low-sec space this means the hunter may just find themselves the hunted... have fun... in High-sec space, it lets us know that our time to finish a mission may be limited at best, that if we do not get that cargo pod, kill that important rat or what ever if you wish to get credit for the mission... or at least get the time bonus. While I do like this idea in theory, in practice it will just cause some people to please themselves by setting off an observator in Motsu and watching 100 Ravens synchro-warp to back to station... --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
Enola Endymion x13	Posted - 2006.12.07 14:01:00 - [66] Originally by: Dragon Lord hmm where exactly does it say eve is a pvp game? oh yeh it doesnt its a game for pve, pvp, mining, manufacturing oh and trading. All essential things in eve. true, but should i refrain from shooting people in a place where its possible to do so, just because they're not interested in getting shot at ? when you enter lowsec, you do it at your own risk. x13 website x13 Killboard
Enola Endymion x13	Posted - 2006.12.07 14:12:00 - [67] Originally by: Lockheed19 And btw, Solant? Nowhere in the entire game description of EvE does it state categorically that this is a purely PvP game. So stop with your 'I'm a PvP'er and therefore have more of a say than you' type cr@p. Do you really think that EvE would be anything like it is with only PvP'ers playing it? Come on, think about it for longer than three seconds eh? no where, but its possible to do it everywhere, so why refrain from it ? there is alot of ways to protect yourself from being ganked, you just need to explore them. so, when i have the possible to it, i do shoot people when i get the chance, because its the eve that I chose to play. but if lowsec is too dangerous, keep to highsec and stop whining. x13 website x13 Killboard
Ralphie Boy	Posted - 2006.12.07 15:23:00 - [68] Edited by: Ralphie Boy on 07/12/2006 15:25:02 A simple solution to balance this would be to lock the acceleration gates, with only the mission runner having the code (shows up in the journal) to activate them. PVP'rs would still be able to scan the mission area and warp to the gate, but would not be able to activate it unless it was successfully hacked, using say... the hacking skill and some sort of interface module. Probabilities and all that sort of stuff to be worked out by the brains at CCP. ETA Mission runners would be somewhat safer. PVPers would still be able to do what they do. Just my .02 ISK worth.
Lrrp Minmatar Gallente Mercantile Exchange	Posted - 2006.12.07 15:25:00 - [69] Originally by: Enola Endymion but if lowsec is too dangerous, keep to highsec and stop whining. Yes yes. Right on Enola. After all the talk I heard from Dev. how Empire high security is getting crowded and the new regions were developed to get more players into low and no sec., we now have the Dev. instituting a "feature" that will drive low sec. players back in high sec. Our whole corp is taking your advice and moving it's players back into high sec. So with high sec systems with lvl 4 agents start getting stacked up with mission runners, I wonder how well the servers will handle a 100 or so lvl 4 missions with all the npc's, wrecks and traffic going on at the same time. So as we take your advice Enola and the game has regional overloads, I hope you enjoy the game as much as we do.
Spuck	Posted - 2006.12.07 15:25:00 - [70] Edited by: Spuck on 07/12/2006 15:37:51 Edited by: Spuck on 07/12/2006 15:34:36 Lil kiddies paradise Let me tell you why i play(ed) Eve and love(ed) it so much. Eve is complex, Eve has alot content, Eve let you be what you want to be. Miner Producer Scient Trader Mission Runner Corp Fighter Playerkiller Bounty Hunter Courier This game was never intended or descripted as some full hardcore PvP / RPK / Grief platform where everyone has to deal with pvp all the time (if so this would be some shooter without the counted professions) Now like many others im running missions (low sec favor'd) mostly solo for my personal fun and ISK to realize my personal wishes / goals. I do this since years now and cant see the point why i HAVE TO give up now my gameplay / style / fun just to make some gank-kids happy. ( See, if i would like to pvp for most i would not run missions or ? ) Dont tell me i can protect myself, can avoid that, can go back to high sec. best ship, best skills cant defend against 19 !!! gank ships swarming you in lvl 4 angel extra (got multiple attacks in several missions but this was hardest) i cant and dont want to scan all the time to avoid this attacks, i want to fly missions and dont want to have to deal with kids (cept travel risk) not to speak of the tremendous timeline you need to finish a mission if you have to flee every few minutes, if you can flee highsec is uninteresting for me cause lowsec offers harder missions, better reward the option to use capital ships + the highsec mission runner has to deal now with griefers wich see their life in killing your mission and you cant do anything against it. So is it low or high sec mission running, it's broken generally now and has to be fixed back or to some other solution immediatley. I agree with that everyone should have fun in the game and it may be to less fun for gankersbut giving em such a mighty weapon just to support em in bringing down other players game cant be the intended and right way. Let everyone play what he wants to play and how he wants to play, give back everyone the option to decide themselve what they want and not lil kids or the server can be downgraded back soon from the big loss in players this will cause. thats how i see it bye Spuck btw i dont want to see the lag / crashes once all mission runners came back to the few high sec lvl 4 agents to continue their work their with the only disturbing of griefers... lol
Lockheed19	Posted - 2006.12.07 15:52:00 - [71] Edited by: Lockheed19 on 07/12/2006 16:00:02 edited because my challenge to gimpy is nothing to do with the thread.
Enola Endymion x13	Posted - 2006.12.07 16:04:00 - [72] Originally by: Lockheed19 Edited by: Lockheed19 on 07/12/2006 16:00:02 edited because my challenge to gimpy is nothing to do with the thread. quit posting on forums if you cant take the heat, and have to vent your frustration in an convo.. tsk tsk, grow up matey. x13 website x13 Killboard
Lockheed19	Posted - 2006.12.07 16:04:00 - [73] Originally by: Enola Endymion ...no where, but its possible to do it everywhere, so why refrain from it ? there is alot of ways to protect yourself from being ganked, you just need to explore them.... Doh! No sht Sherlock. Typical gimp mentality. Only looks at the game through a narrow-minded point of view. Quote:* so, when i have the possible to it, i do shoot people when i get the chance, because its the eve that I chose to play... Dera oh dear, re-read not only my post, but the entire damn thread. No, no. tellyou what, do yourself, me and the rest of us a favour and just STFU. Quote: but if lowsec is too dangerous, keep to highsec and stop whining. Lol, you complete pratt. I have several characters. One is a mission runner, one is a pirate and the other is a trader. It's got nothing to do with it. But, considering I offered you a 1 on 1 and you ran away, am I really surprised? Jerk.
Kerosene Caldari Fun Inc Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.07 16:08:00 - [74] I think missions need changing to give the mission runners a chance to get away instead of scrammed by a bunch of crappy frigs. Other than that, things are fine. I've been known to run a few mission in 0.0 and tbh this change makes no difference to me because the intel around me is pretty good and can see hostiles coming from miles off. If anything, this has given me a few more tools to kill my enemy mission runners with. Not everyone is blessed with common sense thank god __ Originally by: Blacklight on BoB Just to be sure everyone is clear... We use spies. We listen to your TS. We feed you false intel. We have no qualms about it whatsoever..
Lockheed19	Posted - 2006.12.07 16:08:00 - [75] Originally by: Enola Endymion ...quit posting on forums if you cant take the heat, and have to vent your frustration in an convo... Lmao. Dude, you just don't have a damn clue. The only thing that gets me in here is blinkered, bigoted, backward morons like you who can't even read properly and just spout shyte and drivel in reply to a decent thread [which has now unfortunately been spoiled by your noxious presence]. Quote: tsk tsk, grow up matey. You're just another hard boy behind a remote keyboard who doesn't have the *******s to turn up for ANY kind of fight. I'm done with you jerky boy. I'm not posting any more in here because that's not what this thread is about. When you develop a pair, convo' me.
Enola Endymion x13	Posted - 2006.12.07 16:09:00 - [76] well, i stand by my word and call you a whiner. because that is what you are. and if it was up you people like you, eve would be a pure pve game. x13 website x13 Killboard
Crag Heyder Gallente Icosothron Industries	Posted - 2006.12.07 16:28:00 - [77] I think the ease at which pirates can scan and gank someone doing a mission crosses the boundary between PvP and PvE. When you commit to an agent mission, you are commiting to a PvE experience. The scanning aspect of this game, with the inability to scan rats, etc., has clearly been changed to make the scanner and probes a PvP specific feature. Scan probes should be used for strict PvP, i.e. miners in belts, peoplle holed up in safes, etc. To allow a band of pirates to easily scan and gank those who are mostly running missions solo and set up for their PvE commitment breaks that boundary. It's funny, though how all the pirates go waa waa about how warp to 0 kills gate camps, and then mission runners go waa about the ease of gankers to kill them when in missions. This is a major game imbalance and it needs to be addressed ASAP. BTW - I like ganking unsuspecting folks as much as the next guy, but this creates a real 'shooting fish in a barrel' situation here.
Darkon Icensun Gallente Synergy Evolved Serenity Fallen	Posted - 2006.12.07 17:09:00 - [78] Originally by: El Huapo 3 year player, low sec mission runner. There has not been one content patch from Castor right on through Kali that has been designed for the PVE player. At every turn there has been some sort of obstacle for the mission runner to overcome because of content that is aimed at another part of the game. Low security mission runners are ALREADY subjected to a higher risk when carrying out their operations when they have to jump through hostile space and gatecamps. I have lost ships along the way and I never whined about it. It is a cost associated with doing business in low security space. There IS a problem with the new system and is UNBALANCED in favor of the people jumping into someone else's mission. I remember the days when pirates camped missions because the spawn points were always the same. Now we have come full circle. Why bother doing a mission at all when you can just jump into someone elses, kill their ship(s) easily and with assistance from NPC's, take over the mission, kill the rats, take the items and the only person who loses significant standing is the mission runner who can't complete the mission. Traders should not be forced to Manufacture. PVP'ers should not be forced to run missions, just as mission runners should not be forced to PVP. My opinions: All level 4 and above missions should be moved to low security. People should not be fighting BS sized rats in Empire. Deadspace should only be for the mission runner and his/her gang. Mission runners are at risk when travelling to and from the agent to the Deadspace locations - many times it's multiple jumps through gate camps. Complexes require a key to advance through gates. Why not missions? Long range probes should not be able to penetrate Deadspace thereby only revealing the location of the gates, not the ships contained within the Deadspace. If you want to know what is in there, then you must use a different scan. If mission runners have to be at risk of someone jumping into their mission then I would suggest the follwing: The scan probes can only find the gate and reveals nothing about the ships in the Deadspace. Once there, they must hack their way into the gate which warps them to a different and randomly selected point within the Deadspace. They are then at risk of aggroing a spawn when they warp in. If the mission is hacked, no standing loss for the mission runner for not completing the mission. I agree with the OP, that this is a SERIOUS problem that drastically changed missions as they have stood for a long time. Not everyone plays Eve to PVP and their money pays for service just as much as anyone else in this game. This is one of the best suggestions I have seen on this subject. Right now it is way to easy to get located in a mission. I might add to this that each ship trying to enter the mission gate needs to hack its way in. ------------------------------------- Live long, fly safe.
wolf Gallente	Posted - 2006.12.07 17:19:00 - [79] Over the vast majority of posts this thread has managed magnificently to keep it's head well above the level of purile debate that seems at times to be the default style of the Eve Forum masses, and I'm impressed by the lack of people rising to the obvious baiting. To those that have started to do such baiting in this thread I ask that for future posts you please bear in mind the position of the original post and the majority that have contributed with the blinkers off and a sense of balance fully intact. I don't believe anyone with a hint of intelligence wants mission runners to be completely safe in Low Sec, we need to be at risk, of course we do. Low Sec mission running with no risk of being jumped would be just as 'wrong' to me as the current situation we are discussing. This thread was started with the aim of starting an adult discussion about how to find a balance between the two camps, piracy and mission running, in Low Sec space (with a nod of the head to the High Sec griefing that is also going on due to these changes). It has so far for the most part succeeded, and I've really enjoyed reading it all. If all you wish to say is 'screw you, get used to it or go to High Sec' then please save yourself the time, we're not interested in such an infantile view. Let the great discussion continue...
Lord WarATron Amarr Vanguard Frontiers Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.12.07 17:30:00 - [80] What I think will happen is first gate of a mission being camped by sniper pirates..... looking to hunt other pirates that drop by. Aligned, 200km away from warp in point, pirate comes in... pop. Next pirate - pop etc etc --- Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble'Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE
wolf Gallente	Posted - 2006.12.07 17:51:00 - [81] Originally by: Lord WarATron What I think will happen is first gate of a mission being camped by sniper pirates..... looking to hunt other pirates that drop by. Aligned, 200km away from warp in point, pirate comes in... pop. Next pirate - pop etc etc Hehe, now that's a great idea for something to do while all this is still going on.
Lrrp Minmatar Gallente Mercantile Exchange	Posted - 2006.12.07 18:05:00 - [82] I wonder how all the gankers would feel if say....CCP came out with a Stasis webbifier with a 98% speed reduction and was classed as "Deployable Equipment". And lets say the only place you could deploy it in deadspace missions. And of course it would not show up on scan probes. So anyone coming into mission after deployment would be stuck in it for as long as it would take to destroy it. I wonder how much squealing by the PvE'ers there would be when they warp to the mission and get caught as mission BS's open up from 100k away. How about if cloaked ships could remain cloaked and fire at any pilot under a certain security standing? Listen to the gankers whine about that. There can be any number of changes that would make ganker/griefers start complaining so for them to belittle mission runners is only because they have been getting the advantages.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2006.12.07 18:16:00 - [83] Originally by: Solant I fail to see how this is ANY different than being caught mining at an asteroid field in lowsec. The only difference, is that carebear PVE pilots have always assumed they were 100% safe in mission deadspaces. Well, you aren't. Lowsec is not safe, ever, and people need to start realizing that. Honestly, I've gsnked a few people in missions since Revelations too- and every single one of them was WAY to slow or afk and had well over a minute before I got to them and scrambled them. If you aren't paying enough attention in your missions to notice a hostile player warping in and afterburning over to you, you deserve to lose your ship. PVE was too easy, anyway. I fail to see where the pirates find all those people not looking local and the space around them while doing a mission. Or he is always the same guy in all EVE being killed repeatedly? Or most of the pirates feel their position is so weak that they need to bolster it with this annedoctes?
Shanara Starseeker	Posted - 2006.12.07 18:29:00 - [84] I want to add 3 things that came to mind reading this thread: * Those using drones loose a set of drones every time a griefer warps in (or risk dying) and with T2 drones this can sum up quite fast. * If I'm not mistaken a cov ops pilot (or 2) can warp in cloaked and lock you down before you even get a chance of using that prealigned warp. (I'm not perfectly sure on this but fear it would work.) * While I read a few times that people in low sec should have higher risk and fully agree to it: the net-gain in low sec must be higher because else it is more profitable to go back to high sec. Some people here (mainly those saying missions in low sec are too safe) seem to forget that. The little chance of being caught while on the way to a mission (gate camp) and loosing a ship for several hundred millions forces you to run several weeks to run missions to just replace that ship already. A high sec mission runner never faces that risk and the low sec reward must be that much higher to pay out this risk else noone would go to low sec. I'm running missions too and believe I saw the OP already and yes the system has gone scarily active with pirates looking for cheap money since a few days. Got ganked too but so far was lucky enough to get away.
Zepher Bronyn	Posted - 2006.12.07 18:32:00 - [85] Definately unbalanced atm, There have been a lot of good suggestions and opinions posted.If they change nothing ,I suggest having anti-pirate corps flock to these lowsec systems and hunt down the pirates. If they do make changes a simple one would be to increase the bounty and rewards for the missions to encourage groups of people to run missions in lowsec. Hell make it so it is dependent on the size of your gang, the more people, the more isk. Remember lots of us enjoy the rewards from mission runners, faction ships and cheap implants to name a couple. This is also an opprotunity for a mercenary corp to make some isk protecting mission runners. Come on pirate hunters, head to lowsec it's lousy with pirates! SEt up a mission and camp the first warp in spot....
Jaded	Posted - 2006.12.07 18:42:00 - [86] Originally by: Grey Area Originally by: Pakokkie Make the mission gates accesible only to the one doing the mission and anyone who is in gang with him. That goes too far the OTHER way...missions were never 100% safe before, it's just that now instead of a pirate turning up one mission out of ten, it's more likely they will turn up...well...on every mission as far as I can see. IMO missions _should_ be 100% safe. There's enough risk / inconvenience in low sec to make up for it..
exarienne	Posted - 2006.12.07 19:12:00 - [87] Originally by: Spuck Let me tell you why i play(ed) Eve and love(ed) it so much. Eve is complex, Eve has alot content, Eve let you be what you want to be. I agree with that everyone should have fun in the game and it may be to less fun for gankersbut giving em such a mighty weapon just to support em in bringing down other players game cant be the intended and right way. Let everyone play what he wants to play and how he wants to play, give back everyone the option to decide themselve what they want and not lil kids or the server can be downgraded back soon from the big loss in players this will cause. [/quote Just what i think, but my english is not good enough to voice it. Originally by: Enola Endymion and if it was up you people like you, eve would be a pure pve game. Unlike you, mosty other have enough common sense to give others freedom of choice. We like to have some options, but new scanning just killed one of them. I think making missions 100% safe is too much, but now i feel like sitting duck on the shooting range, so i wait for a fix, looking slowly for another game just in case the devs remain silent. (sorry for offtop) i was close to being able to fly a carrier - is it possible to enter lvl4 mission in a carrier? i've read mixed opinions on this.... Originally by: Leandro Salazar Now I really don't mind being ganked when I am careless, but I DO mind being forced to play the gank or be ganked game every waking moment just because that is what s
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2006.12.07 19:52:00 - [88] Originally by: Kerosene I think missions need changing to give the mission runners a chance to get away instead of scrammed by a bunch of crappy frigs. .... You see the problem is that busting the mission, even if the runner flee, the hunter has the site and the name of the mission runner, so if he is seen in local by the hunter or some of his friend, they have a spot where to search for him even without probing. And they can easily grab the mission target item, ruining every chance to complete the mission. so the mission runner will get a serious blow in standing with the corporation giving the mission and the relative faction (it is some time that refusing more than 1 mission or failing them give a faction standing hit). Even 1 such failure every 3 mission will drop the mission runner to the lover level of agents in no time.
Darkon Icensun Gallente Synergy Evolved Serenity Fallen	Posted - 2006.12.07 23:26:00 - [89] Originally by: exarienne (sorry for offtop) i was close to being able to fly a carrier - is it possible to enter lvl4 mission in a carrier? i've read mixed opinions on this....[/quote Capital ships can not enter missions or complexes any more. Nothing above a battle ship in other words. ------------------------------------- Live long, fly safe.
Shayla Sh'inlux Gallente The Black Rabbits	Posted - 2006.12.08 01:14:00 - [90] Originally by: Pakokkie Simple solution. Maybe anyone else already thought it up but... Make the mission gates accesible only to the one doing the mission and anyone who is in gang with him. Woot instances. Then we'd have WoW in space? Nothx. Quote: Its ok if they can get to your warp gate and try to gank you there or find your safespot. But when you are in a mission well, your just meat to pirates now. Pirates already agreed probing is too easy. It used to take skill to find a mission spot. Now it's just drop probe and wait. It's mostly a problem due to deadspace and warpgate mechanics, but I already explained that in some of the other 58.409.570 threads about this so won't do it again. Quote: On the other hand. This could be one of ccp's moves to get people to work together. Mission runners are solo players. For about 90% of them Eve could just as well have been a stand-alone no internet connection required game. They will never start working together. Originally by: "Cy4n1d3" You can't PVP with 4 mids.
Spuck	Posted - 2006.12.08 01:43:00 - [91] Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux Originally by: Pakokkie Simple solution. Maybe anyone else already thought it up but... Make the mission gates accesible only to the one doing the mission and anyone who is in gang with him. Woot instances. Then we'd have WoW in space? Nothx. Quote: Its ok if they can get to your warp gate and try to gank you there or find your safespot. But when you are in a mission well, your just meat to pirates now. Pirates already agreed probing is too easy. It used to take skill to find a mission spot. Now it's just drop probe and wait. It's mostly a problem due to deadspace and warpgate mechanics, but I already explained that in some of the other 58.409.570 threads about this so won't do it again. Quote: On the other hand. This could be one of ccp's moves to get people to work together. Mission runners are solo players. For about 90% of them Eve could just as well have been a stand-alone no internet connection required game. They will never start working together. blub blub where is the point in letting others enter yer mission to kill you / steal loot / destroy loot or doing whatever to ruin yer day ? perhaps you think its unfair if you cant kill me wherever and whenever you want for no risk with yer lil gankfriends ? just the discussion about it's an exploit or not is laughable but even more lol is that it seems that this is intendet from CCP YAY overcrowded noobsystems with many griefing fun and again whining ganks cause mission runners left their low sec but hey you can learn a new profession and change from gank to griefer (if ya want to deal with the coming lag) this becomes even worse than Shadowbane or Horizons lol
Shayla Sh'inlux Gallente The Black Rabbits	Posted - 2006.12.08 07:06:00 - [92] If you want only consensual PvP and you want your own little instance where nobody can bother you I strongly suggest that you either go back to WoW or buy a Wii. Eve clearly is not the game for you. I'm sorry, but CCP is not gonna change the concept of their game, because simply put, it is what makes Eve. Making missions instances will cause people to flock away to WoW and maybe even guildwars because those games are infinately better on the PvE part. I'm a pirate. I think scanning is too easy. In fact, I and many others have advertised that ever since it got changed on Sisi, but as with many things, CCP only fixes stuff after it threatens to break TQ. I also think CCP shouldn't have changed it at all and should just have fixed the weird "disc" issue. I'm glad they're gonna change it. Regardless, me and "my little gank friends" DO have some actually SKILLED probers and I'm not worried we won't be able to find mission runners. It will just take longer. The good thing about that is that we lose some competition from the real boring gankers and can get back to ransoming more often. You area solo mission runner that only cares about your own Raven's fittings and only cae about buying that shiny new Gist mod. If you want no risk, please run missions in frigging Jita. Don't complain when the tools to be safe are in place. I can survive perfectly fine in lowsec; so can all my friends and most of my enemies living in the same space. So, why wouldn't you be able to? (I can think of a few reasons...) Originally by: "Cy4n1d3" You can't PVP with 4 mids.
Spuck	Posted - 2006.12.08 08:41:00 - [93] Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux If you want only consensual PvP and you want your own little instance where nobody can bother you I strongly suggest that you either go back to WoW or buy a Wii. Eve clearly is not the game for you. I'm sorry, but CCP is not gonna change the concept of their game, because simply put, it is what makes Eve. Making missions instances will cause people to flock away to WoW and maybe even guildwars because those games are infinately better on the PvE part. I'm a pirate. I think scanning is too easy. In fact, I and many others have advertised that ever since it got changed on Sisi, but as with many things, CCP only fixes stuff after it threatens to break TQ. I also think CCP shouldn't have changed it at all and should just have fixed the weird "disc" issue. I'm glad they're gonna change it. Regardless, me and "my little gank friends" DO have some actually SKILLED probers and I'm not worried we won't be able to find mission runners. It will just take longer. The good thing about that is that we lose some competition from the real boring gankers and can get back to ransoming more often. You area solo mission runner that only cares about your own Raven's fittings and only cae about buying that shiny new Gist mod. If you want no risk, please run missions in frigging Jita. Don't complain when the tools to be safe are in place. I can survive perfectly fine in lowsec; so can all my friends and most of my enemies living in the same space. So, why wouldn't you be able to? (I can think of a few reasons...) if you would read over the postings you would perhaps get a feeling of the very different REAL LIFE situation of the Eve players and perhaps your intelligence is high enough to understand than what the problem of many is. btw you think i have to live on a high risk while the gankers + griefers shall play on with 0 risk ? now if thats no great solution ? why dont you visit my page ? GFY
Shayla Sh'inlux Gallente The Black Rabbits	Posted - 2006.12.08 10:38:00 - [94] Ooh look how mature Reported. Please go grind some more instances on your lvl 60 warrior. Originally by: "Cy4n1d3" You can't PVP with 4 mids.
LukaG	Posted - 2006.12.08 10:57:00 - [95] Don't know if any Devs are reading this post (doubt it) but anyway just thought I'd say the constant attention of pirates has forced me to give up low sec mission running. I just can't afford to lose ships every other day. Anyone who says you can avoid a gang of 3-5 pirates warping in on you with a fast dedicated tackler is full of sh1t. You'll be lucky to get away with your pod. Anway im off to 0.0, its a lot bloody safer.
Spuck	Posted - 2006.12.08 11:23:00 - [96] Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux Ooh look how mature Reported. it's just lame to discuss on about the supportet exploiting wich makes ganks & griefers happy at the cost of mission runners enjoy the few days it lasts ACCOUNT = CANCELLED see ya in vanguard / age of conan or warhammer
Crag Heyder Gallente Icosothron Industries	Posted - 2006.12.08 16:16:00 - [97] Quote: If you want only consensual PvP and you want your own little instance where nobody can bother you I strongly suggest that you either go back to WoW or buy a Wii. What really *****s me up is the way that 'pirates' are the ones that think this game is only for them. 'Oh, I'm a pirate, that's what I do. If you don't like it, play WoW...'. Where do you think you're going to get all your faction gear and ships if you kill all the mission runners? Pirates are one, aspect of the game. I like to pirate, I do pretty well for myself, but this game isn't soley about 'piracy, or leave,'. There are other forms of player interaction. Saying someone who runs missions 90% of the time and saying that those people may as well play without an internet connection, is the same as telling you that you should quit EVE and go play CS or UT. There, it's all just about killing, with no other form of interaction. You just want your easy kill of large ships. You saying it's too easy, then complaining about people complaining about how easy it is, sounds very Bush administration. Maybe you should be a politician.
Mira deVorsha	Posted - 2006.12.08 17:25:00 - [98] Only read the first page but my response is.. You in 0.0 space you should always be expecting to get shot in the back by large numbers. It is the nature of that space. You want to run missions in safety then there is empire for you. The only issue I have with people dropping in is that they can steal the mission objective screwing things up or steal your wreaks without going aggro (savalging empty ones).
wolf Gallente	Posted - 2006.12.08 17:36:00 - [99] From this evenings news about the patch on Wednesday 13th: "balancing in system scanning of deadspace in agents/complexes (way too easy)" Let's see what the patch notes reveal once they're available
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2006.12.08 18:12:00 - [100] They need to think of something different other than just "balancing"...that sounds to me like "We'll make scanning harder than it is now, but not as difficult as it was in Kali" My suggestion...make it so warp scramblers don't work in deadspace. Pirates can turn up if they want, but they'll have to flush me out into normal space to finish me off. THAT sounds like a somewhat fairer system. --- I don't mind you disagreeing with me. Just don't say I don't have the SKILLS to comment until you've looked at them.
Erinna Zarx	Posted - 2007.01.10 15:00:00 - [101] My 2 cents: As many mission runners here I encoutered pirates. It seems, drone usage makes it even easier. Being aligned will help you against a solo rat but if they have a tackler it s no hope, unless you are deep in the complex. Being ransomed was a bit annoying but worse was being destroyed without even being ransomed. That s when I figure that wasn t right. So I started ransoming, since then, my wallet feels much better and I don t have to worry about standing. And ransoming someone while they are under NPC's fire doesn t require loads of persuation skills.
Yoshi Abe	Posted - 2007.01.11 04:16:00 - [102] Looking at this whole thing, you might believe it would be more profitable in the long term for pirates to start "protection" services than to actively drive all mission runners from lowsec. Short term, sure, you get more from popping a ship, but realistically, like a pond that gets over fished, the resource dries up. Naturally, should anyone decline to pay for "protection" who knows what evils might befall their ship while they mission? Wonder how many lowsec mission runners would happily pay 10 million per week to get on someone's list of blue players if they knew the corp or alliance they were paying off would keep other pirates off their backs.
skepsiss	Posted - 2007.01.11 12:32:00 - [103] @op ... sadly, everyone involved in that kind of acctivity will have 100-1000-1000000 billions of excuses, which doesnt change the reality of this game, which is moving slowly but surely into griefing more than playing. I mean I don't pay for a game just so I can be forced into things by others, and don't tell me that its like real life, cause its just a game, which you pay a monthly fee for, and also, greefing in real life is subject to laws, which you people seem to forget.
Herbert Bennett	Posted - 2007.02.17 22:21:00 - [104] Wouldn't it be funny if some player pirate squad setup a trap for other player pirates who tend to warp in uninvited on missions, using the mission deadspace as bait
Dragon Lord Caldari Helion Production Labs	Posted - 2007.02.17 23:31:00 - [105] Heres one possible solution, say the mission runner is in his mission on his own. When the pvpers warp to the mission gate lets say 3 minutes only 1 of there ships can enter the deadspace pocket. If theres 2 mission runners in the same mission then 2 pvpers may enter. If ur ganged to the mission runner u can enter np but if ur not then u are restricted. I feel this would make for a much more interesting fight as 1 vs 5 = death unless ur very lucky and im sorry allining to a station is so impractical for nearly all mission runners. So any mission griefer will have to go toe to toe with the mission runner and kill him. And since the pvper doesnt know what npcs he will be fighting the fight could be very interesting. Also if the pvper is killed the next member of his gang could then warp in. This would reduce the risk sumwhat for mission runners and increase the risk for mission gankers thats currently going on. It would also be fun to have a few npc rats attack the pvper when he enters the deadspace so that he cant just mwd to the missioner and kill him. Im just thinking outloud here tbh its just an idea but as a mission runner myself i know that below 0.5 for my beloved mission ship = near certain pwnage.

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