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Astarte Nosferatu
MBN Holding Corporation
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Posted - 2006.12.14 11:51:00 -
[31]
Oh TS, you know we love you  . There are always going to be critics, don't let them bother you.
From a satisfied BMBE customer
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Ray McCormack
BIG
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Posted - 2006.12.14 13:54:00 -
[32]
 Originally by: Baun
2. Under the new business model all or virtually of your work comes from low maintenance tech 2 production wherein you don't even have to go get the materials needed to produce the BPO. This work cannot possible take longer than a few hours a week.
Not true.
Originally by: Erfnam
Does BIG ever dip in to the BMBE ISK for short term loans? If so, is this interest free? Is all of the unallocated ISK still in the corporate or personal wallet? Can you post a screenshot of the wallet? The longer I think about it, the less I can believe that so much ISK would just sit idle.
BIG has up to this point never touched a cent of the BMBE's ISK. We've had plans to in the form of a loan, but those have never come to fruition. Yet. A screenshot of the wallet will never be posted.
Oh, and Hi Jack, Bye Jack. I'll probably see you again at the next BMBE marketing thread, which should be in about three weeks or so...
| How To Afford A Tech II BPO | the all mighty BIG industrial corp from hell with a slong the size of a walrus. |
Baun
4S Corporation
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.12.14 15:09:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Ray McCormack
Originally by: Baun
2. Under the new business model all or virtually of your work comes from low maintenance tech 2 production wherein you don't even have to go get the materials needed to produce the BPO. This work cannot possible take longer than a few hours a week.
Not true.
Which part is not true Ray? The only additional work I can see is soliciting new loans, which TS hadn't been doing particularly actively for a few months.
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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Ray McCormack
BIG
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Posted - 2006.12.14 21:03:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Baun
2. Under the new business model all or virtually of your work comes from
That part...
Originally by: Baun
low maintenance tech 2 production wherein you don't even have to go get the materials needed to produce the BPO.
...that part...
Originally by: Baun
This work cannot possible take longer than a few hours a week.
...and that part.
| How To Afford A Tech II BPO | the all mighty BIG industrial corp from hell with a slong the size of a walrus. |
Baun
4S Corporation
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.12.14 23:43:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Ray McCormack
Originally by: Baun
2. Under the new business model all or virtually of your work comes from
That part...
Originally by: Baun
low maintenance tech 2 production wherein you don't even have to go get the materials needed to produce the BPO.
...that part...
Originally by: Baun
This work cannot possible take longer than a few hours a week.
...and that part.
The problem is that none of that is wrong 
The majority of the work of producing a t2 BPO is manufacturing the components/buying and hauling them/manufacturing and hauling them and then moving the product around and spreading it in different markets.
BMBE's only job is to produce if they are given the components and then hand the product to someone else. This means that with respect to production your job consists of a few evemail exchanges, some contracts and about 5 mouse clicks to run a production job.
If this is not virtually all of your work then what is? Soliciting loans and then doing the requisite due diligence on BPO value? If that is most of your work then you haven't been doing your job very well in the 4+ months where the BMBE has either made no money or lost money.
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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Berrik Radhok
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2006.12.15 07:39:00 -
[36]
Sounds iffy to me. There's nothing to stop you from just saying "yoink" and keeping the BPO. Also if a corp thief gets access and steals it, there's no recourse either.
Originally by: Khavi Vetali
Oh don't worry, the goons are just as suicidal with their battleships as they are with their frigates.
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Silmas
Gallente
hirr
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.12.15 10:26:00 -
[37]
On behalf of my corp, who's owning fair amount of shares, I'd like to express also my concern on the way BMBE has been handled lately.
The dividends have been nice to receive altough they are not comparable to some high-yielding IPO's, but BMBE was considered as 'safe investment' as we knew Tornsoul and BIG from past. The stock value has not improved, but rather fallen down alot.
That being said, I feel it is time to make serious re-evaluation on the IPO and how useful it can be in EVE. The amount of ISK in BMBE has to loan was considerable maybe when the IPO started, but due to inflation on BPO prices and amount of ISK entering the game, BMBE cannot really provide considerable amount of ISK injection to the game. That's my take on the EVE market. And adding capital is out of question, as the stock is already non-valued.
My suggestion would be to try out 'new approach' with added marketing for this IPO, and if it doesn't work, return isk to investors and we all go on our own ways...
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Astarte Nosferatu
MBN Holding Corporation
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Posted - 2006.12.15 10:34:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Berrik Radhok
Sounds iffy to me. There's nothing to stop you from just saying "yoink" and keeping the BPO. Also if a corp thief gets access and steals it, there's no recourse either.
I doubt trust is an issue. I have left 10bil+ in the capable hands of Ray McCormack and BIG in the past with no problems, and would do it again without having to think about it.
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Cell Satimo
Black Eclipse Corp
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.12.15 10:46:00 -
[39]
BIG have built a solid brand of trust in EvE. There is no reason to doubt that.
However, BMBE failed to Market, it disables your means of production to actually pay-off the BPO by claiming other BPOs as collateral. The service is poor.
The Interest rates are variable and effectively gouge the market depending on what TS had for breakfast.
BMBE in it's current form is failure.
The returns to investors are so bad, the share-prices has fallen to 90% of IPO on EGSE, despite being secured against actually cash BMBE has. Shareholders are continually requesting their money back, but don't get it.
My bet would be that BMBE has just used the majority of the 100bn as private development capital within BIG, without even paying interest to shareholders on 'internal loans'.
As far as these points are concerned IMO BMBE currently rates as a thinly veiled scam to investors - just throwing a bone in the shareholders direction as a poor dividend if they start clammering too loudly.
However, there is no reason to doubt BMBE's trustworthyness as a lender. They are beyond question in this regard. You will certainly get your BPO back.
Just question how many BPCs and units they produced while you were paying high interest rates.
It's not too late BMBE & BIG. You can still change direction, or do the right thing and return the cash to share-holders.
Eve Web-Ring
Your guide to all sites In-Game and Out.
Works in IGB |
Ray McCormack
BIG
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Posted - 2006.12.15 12:14:00 -
[40]
To squash these rumours, I give you my word that not one cent of the BMBE's ISK has ever been used by BIG.
Baun, not everyone provides the materials for construction nor markets their own goods. Occassionally it requires a great deal of sacrifice on our part to get the ISK out. Soliciting loans also requires a great deal of time investment. So your statement is very much wrong. As to past performance, I'm not here to comment on that.
Silmas, welcome to that 'new approach'. I'm here as a contact point, and my main ambition is to market the BMBE as a viable source of funding. You'll see a lot more of these posts from myself, as and when they're needed. And 100bil is still a lot of ISK, it's more than enough to finance several Tech II BPOs at one time.
Cell Satimo, again that's where I come in. Marketing will now be a priority (again, as and when it's needed) to ensure maximum dividends for the shares. I'm not sure how "it disables your means of production to actually pay-off the BPO by claiming other BPOs as collateral", seeing as no BPO has to be out of production while it is held by the BMBE. Interest rates are variable, correct, and are dependant on how much ISK the BMBE has loaned out. We have a formula in place for this.
Thank you for the comments on our trustworthiness, it's always appreciated (especially when it comes from ingame enemies).
As to questioning production and research on BPOs held as collateral, it's very easy to answer. We will either station-research or station-build from the BPO for you, so you can easily tell what you should receive off them.
Berrik Radhok, as to the issue of trust, I believe some of the above replies have answered that.
Share price is also something I hold dear, and don't feel it should ever fall below its Net Asset Value. However it is well below that at the moment, simply because of the previous months' performance and people wanting to liquidate shares. My ambition is to see this reach NAV within the next six months.
| How To Afford A Tech II BPO | the all mighty BIG industrial corp from hell with a slong the size of a walrus. |
Silmas
Gallente
hirr
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.12.15 13:43:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Ray McCormack
Silmas, welcome to that 'new approach'. I'm here as a contact point, and my main ambition is to market the BMBE as a viable source of funding. You'll see a lot more of these posts from myself, as and when they're needed. And 100bil is still a lot of ISK, it's more than enough to finance several Tech II BPOs at one time.
Thank you for the prompt reply Ray. Will follow your (BMBE) actions closely ;)
We should be seeing the effects of Revelations in BMBE new concept in couple of months time...
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Baun
4S Corporation
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.12.15 18:02:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Cell Satimo
However, BMBE failed to Market, it disables your means of production to actually pay-off the BPO by claiming other BPOs as collateral. The service is poor.
Actually this is something they specifically do not do.
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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Baun
4S Corporation
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.12.15 18:07:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Baun on 15/12/2006 18:09:32
Originally by: Ray McCormack
Baun, not everyone provides the materials for construction nor markets their own goods. Occassionally it requires a great deal of sacrifice on our part to get the ISK out. Soliciting loans also requires a great deal of time investment. So your statement is very much wrong.
More or less you are saying that soliciting loans gives you the rights to the additional 40% of the profits (30% overall after the reinvestment is taken out). I think it is more or less a fact that you do less, less succesfully than other corproations who take 1/5th of the amount of profit you do.
If you *actually* want BMBE to be a BIG success then you need to start being more realistic with the share you take. It will grow by leaps and bounds if you do that. It will stagnate if you do not. This should be much more of a concern for you than for me. BIG's shares and BIG's reputation represent by far the biggest party affected BMBE's success or lack thereof.
Quote:
As to past performance, I'm not here to comment on that.
This is more than vaguely reminiscent of Mark McGuire (only Americans will probably get that reference).
In any case, past performance is quite relevant because BMBE has a fixed ceiling. In the best of times people are earning less money because of the share and most of the time the shareholders are making no money.
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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Ray McCormack
BIG
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Posted - 2006.12.15 19:57:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Baun
More or less you are saying that soliciting loans gives you the rights to the additional 40% of the profits
No, I'm not.
Originally by: Baun
In any case, past performance is quite relevant because BMBE has a fixed ceiling.
Past performance isn't indicative of a fixed ceiling, the loan structure is (without taking into account the administrative cut).
Your two arguments I can deduce from the above are not yet relevant either. Twenty percent growth from interest is currently adequate, and there isn't a stable enough performance base for us to judge dividend amounts on.
| How To Afford A Tech II BPO | the all mighty BIG industrial corp from hell with a slong the size of a walrus. |
Randay
0utbreak
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Posted - 2006.12.15 23:25:00 -
[45]
how much would a nighthawk bpo be valued at as collateral?
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Baun
4S Corporation
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.12.15 23:44:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Ray McCormack
Originally by: Baun
More or less you are saying that soliciting loans gives you the rights to the additional 40% of the profits
No, I'm not.
Then what are you saying? As I have laid out, thats what it amounts to.
Quote:
Originally by: Baun
In any case, past performance is quite relevant because BMBE has a fixed ceiling.
Past performance isn't indicative of a fixed ceiling, the loan structure is (without taking into account the administrative cut).
Your two arguments I can deduce from the above are not yet relevant either. Twenty percent growth from interest is currently adequate, and there isn't a stable enough performance base for us to judge dividend amounts on.
You misread what I said. Past performance doesn't indicate a ceiling, it is a problem *because* of the ceiling. When the bank cannot consistently produce a dividend it highly relevant that when it does produce money most half of it goes to you. If the company didn't have a ceiling then it wouldn't be a problem because hard work could really raise revenue. Here, hard work has a cap.
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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Ray McCormack
BIG
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Posted - 2006.12.16 00:21:00 -
[47]
We're going in circles here, Baun. My answer is clearly stated above, you just quoted half of it. The dividend ceiling will become an issue from our point of view when the BMBE consistently struggles to provide ISK for loans. From your point of view this ceiling is a result of too large an administrative fee. Put simply you want us to reduce our cut and spread that between dividends and re-investment. We've done this in the past, but are not currently willing to do so again.
| How To Afford A Tech II BPO | the all mighty BIG industrial corp from hell with a slong the size of a walrus. |
Montaire
Lacedaemon.
Sparta Alliance
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Posted - 2006.12.16 00:30:00 -
[48]
Im still unclear on why Baun should even get a say.
Originally by: Ray McCormack
We're going in circles here, Baun. My answer is clearly stated above, you just quoted half of it. The dividend ceiling will become an issue from our point of view when the BMBE consistently struggles to provide ISK for loans. From your point of view this ceiling is a result of too large an administrative fee. Put simply you want us to reduce our cut and spread that between dividends and re-investment. We've done this in the past, but are not currently willing to do so again.
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Baun
4S Corporation
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.12.16 05:29:00 -
[49]
Ray, your answer is not remotely clearly stated. You have not justified your cut through appeal to your work you have simply stated that it is more work than I think it is. Those are different things.
Originally by: Montaire
Im still unclear on why Baun should even get a say.
Besides the fact that I am an original shareholder, everyone has a right to argue about anything. A person's relative position has nothing to do with the merits of their argument.
In any case, you are apparently under the impression that you have a right to question someone else's right to talk. Has it not occured to you that this is obviously more than a tad self undercutting stance?
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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Montaire
Lacedaemon.
Sparta Alliance
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Posted - 2006.12.16 05:52:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Baun
Ray, your answer is not remotely clearly stated. You have not justified your cut through appeal to your work you have simply stated that it is more work than I think it is. Those are different things.
Originally by: Montaire
Im still unclear on why Baun should even get a say.
Besides the fact that I am an original shareholder, everyone has a right to argue about anything. A person's relative position has nothing to do with the merits of their argument.
In any case, you are apparently under the impression that you have a right to question someone else's right to talk. Has it not occured to you that this is obviously more than a tad self undercutting stance?
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Montaire
Lacedaemon.
Sparta Alliance
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Posted - 2006.12.16 06:00:00 -
[51]
I think you mis understood me. When I said "Why should he get a say" I meant "Why should what he thinks or feels impact policy"
I absolutly dont question you can argue the point. What I wonder is why on earth you feel it will get you anywhere. You dont have any reasonable expectation of enforcing change through your force of will.
But when you continue to argue your point, and Im not saying if its right or wrong, you looke like a man, sitting out in a rain storm complaining about the rain. You know what your saying isnt going to change the rain, but you still say it and refuse to go inside.
I looked back as far as I could, and diddnt see anywhere in the original shareholders agreement that said they would listen do you.
So, why do you persist in trying to push your agenda ? You dont have any ground to stand on in which to demand change.
Originally by: Baun
Ray, your answer is not remotely clearly stated. You have not justified your cut through appeal to your work you have simply stated that it is more work than I think it is. Those are different things.
Originally by: Montaire
Im still unclear on why Baun should even get a say.
Besides the fact that I am an original shareholder, everyone has a right to argue about anything. A person's relative position has nothing to do with the merits of their argument.
In any case, you are apparently under the impression that you have a right to question someone else's right to talk. Has it not occured to you that this is obviously more than a tad self undercutting stance?
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Vestalia Gaea
The Echelon
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Posted - 2006.12.16 11:16:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Montaire
But when you continue to argue your point, and Im not saying if its right or wrong, you look like a man, sitting out in a rain storm complaining about the rain. You know what your saying isnt going to change the rain, but you still say it and refuse to go inside.
Nice analogy 
'A disorderly mob is no more an army than a heap of building materials is a house.' |
Ray McCormack
BIG
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Posted - 2006.12.16 13:15:00 -
[53]
Edited by: Ray McCormack on 16/12/2006 13:15:22
Originally by: Baun
Ray, your answer is not remotely clearly stated. You have not justified your cut through appeal to your work you have simply stated that it is more work than I think it is. Those are different things.
That's all I was doing, I was correcting your impression of what running the BMBE entailed. And currently I feel the amount of work and sacrifices we make to get ISK loaned out justifies the administrative cost.
| How To Afford A Tech II BPO | the all mighty BIG industrial corp from hell with a slong the size of a walrus. |
Baun
4S Corporation
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.12.16 17:43:00 -
[54]
Edited by: Baun on 16/12/2006 17:49:31
Originally by: Montaire
But when you continue to argue your point, and Im not saying if its right or wrong, you looke like a man, sitting out in a rain storm complaining about the rain. You know what your saying isnt going to change the rain, but you still say it and refuse to go inside.
And you look like a guy who keeps yelling "HEY ITS RAINING and YOU CAN'T STOP IT" over and over again? Of course, its a terrible analogy. Here a person makes a decision and that decision, for everyone's sake, better be rational. If I can convince him that it is not rational then he should by all acounts change his decision.
Seriously what is your point? If I am not right argue against me or shut up. Whether or not I have the power to impliment policy changes in a company I do not run is *completely* beside the point. The question is whether those changes are a good idea and anyone can argue about that.
Quote:
So, why do you persist in trying to push your agenda ? You dont have any ground to stand on in which to demand change.
Actually, its you that has no ground to stand on. Whether or not I can do something is an entirely separate question from whether or not something should be done. Everyone's ground in an argument is logic. Unfortunately, however, you look like Wily. E. Coyote at the moment.
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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Baun
4S Corporation
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.12.16 17:43:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Ray McCormack
Edited by: Ray McCormack on 16/12/2006 13:15:22
Originally by: Baun
Ray, your answer is not remotely clearly stated. You have not justified your cut through appeal to your work you have simply stated that it is more work than I think it is. Those are different things.
That's all I was doing, I was correcting your impression of what running the BMBE entailed. And currently I feel the amount of work and sacrifices we make to get ISK loaned out justifies the administrative cost.
It is quite clear that you believe that Ray, I would like to see some actual argument for it instead of an assertion. I think you owe us that.
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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Montaire
Lacedaemon.
Sparta Alliance
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Posted - 2006.12.16 17:50:00 -
[56]
He doesnt have to make an argument, he's in charge. And what you think he owes is is irrelevant.
I think there should be a Capital Mining ship. I've been thinking it for months and it hasnt gotten me anywhere. You've been thinking a lot of stuff about BMBE, but thats not doing you any good either.
Hey Baun, its still raining.
Originally by: Baun
It is quite clear that you believe that Ray, I would like to see some actual argument for it instead of an assertion. I think you owe us that.
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Baun
4S Corporation
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.12.16 17:56:00 -
[57]
Edited by: Baun on 16/12/2006 17:56:49
Originally by: Montaire
He doesnt have to make an argument, he's in charge. And what you think he owes is is irrelevant.
Captain obvious is in town ladies and gentleman.
Maybe captain obvious can't distinguish between can and should?
Maybe captain obvious isn't aware that when decisions become unpopular and someone has invested their reputation and isk into something whose value is affected by popularity that they will act to fix it?
I guess captain obvious can only tell the difference between whether "BIG" and "4S" is written below that thing captain obvious thinks is a picture on the left of the thing captain obvious thinks is the writing.
Montaire, you have *no* point. If I were able to directly make the changes I am talking about I would do it. Whether or not he is obliged to listen to me is a completely separate question from whether or not he should.
More to the point, you seem pretty hell bent on continuing to tell me I shouldn't be arguing about something I don't have the power to change (whilst ignoring that I do indeed have that power, however indirectly) when you have *absolutely* no power to get me to stop talking. I guess you are standing out in the same rainstorm? Hypocrit much?
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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Nimie
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Posted - 2006.12.16 17:58:00 -
[58]
Edited by: Nimie on 16/12/2006 17:59:26
ah, whether or not big gives more money to shareholders is irrelevant. big makes no money so it doesn't matter. if big goes down all of this talk is useless. you're making a big deal over a relativly small concern. something like this should only happen after big makes a big payment.
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Baun
4S Corporation
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2006.12.16 18:03:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Nimie
ah, whether or not big gives more money to shareholders is irrelevant. you're making a big deal over a relativly small concern.
Is it a big deal for the entire population of EVE? Of course not.
It is, however, tremendously significant as far as BMBE goes. BIG's salary is approximately 5 times higher than any other corporate managers salary. Furthermore, BMBE's potential income is completely capped by interest rates. As a result, no matter how hard BMBE works they can only make the company earn a fixed amount of money. They cannot make the dividends go up past a certain relatively modest level through hard work.
This both disincentivizes hard work and exacerbates the problem we have seen. When the BMBE *is* making a profit its shareholders are earning around half of what they would be earning under similiar investments. As a result, BMBE share price is in the toilet, everyones' investment is less valuable (including BIG's) and people are less likely to trust BIG (which is something I very much don't want since I trust them very much, if you doubt this, however, just read the last 10 BMBE related posts).
BMBE can easily salvage the situation by lowering its fee. As I have argued, the work they do by all accounts should not be as great as many other ventures in any case so its difficult to justify the large cut. If their cut were reduced share value would go back up and *everyone* would be alot happier.
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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Nimie
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Posted - 2006.12.16 19:15:00 -
[60]
Edited by: Nimie on 16/12/2006 19:16:00
you're a little off. big's shares are lower than normal because big hasn't been giving likable returns. a change in how much big gives out will do little for the share's value and isn't worth considering at this time.
also, was the amount of profits big claims always like this or did they change it somewhere in between here and then?
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