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Ray McCormack BIG	Posted - 2006.12.06 01:44:00 - [1] So you're looking at getting involved in the Tech II production market, but are put off by some of the ridiculously priced BPOs, as well as the associated overheads and skill requirements. Well, there are various options available to you, let me introduce you to one of them. The BIG Merchant Bank Of EVE The BMBE was first introduced nearly a year ago. To fund its plans an IPO was launched, securing the BMBE 50 Billion ISK in capital. The first and second monthly figures were quite disappointing, but month three saw a turn around in fortune as the BMBE began accepting Blueprints as collateral and started paying dividends. This success promted a second public offering, which secured the BMBE an additional 50 Billion ISK in capital. Three months of dividends followed, as a spate of high profile Tech II Blueprint auctions hit the forums. But unfortunately this success didn't last due to a variety of reasons, and the last three months have seen little or no dividend paid out. So again it was time for changes as the BMBE began to adapt. How Can I Buy A Tech II BPO? Oppurtunities come up quite often, either in-game through the Contract system, but usually in the Sell Orders Forum. Right now there are a number of offers, including but not limited to an Eris, Taranis, Zealot, Quad Light Beam Laser and a variety of Ammunition Blueprints. All you require is the initial capital to purchase and begin production on them, which is of course not something your average player has access to. Which is where we come in. We have the ISK, and you have the ambition and want to get involved in this fairly profitable industry. Most of the time we'll price a Blueprint very conservatively, due in part to the varying nature of how people measure its value. Ask three different people what the value of a Tech II Blueprint is, and you'll have three extremely different figures. Couple this with the fact that there isn't a readily available price history (one or two sales does not make a price history, especially when it's being bid on by the same people) and suddenly you have a very difficult prospect on your hands. The main reason we undervalue is to ensure we don't end up with an overpriced BPO on our hands. This means we'll normally never front the full amount you require for the purchase of the Blueprint, which leaves a shortfall you'll need to cover yourself. This is generally around 20%-30%, but circumstances could push it either side by quite a way. This shortfall needn't be in the form of cold, digital ISK either, as we'll accept most items as collateral. This way you can employ dormant assets without having to liquidate them.
Ray McCormack BIG	Posted - 2006.12.06 01:45:00 - [2] (cont) So with the collateral secured, we've now got the ISK, some from us and some from you, to purchase that BPO for you. This very valuable asset is now yours, but it's in our hands. That doesn't stop you from benefiting from it straight away, though, as BIG will step in and provide production services for you. All you have to do is supply the materials and we'll supply you with the end goods. You've now got another means of income as you begin to repay the loan. Weekly interest is curently between 1.5% and 4.5%, depending on which loan type you chose, and loans can now be paid off in as soon as 4 weeks. You can find more details at the BMBE website, www.BIG-EVE.com/BMBE. Other Applications The BMBE doesn't limit itself to the Tech II Blueprint market, and will gladly assist you in your attempt to fund an array of items. From Capital Fleets to Faction Modules, even Tech I Blueprints. www.BIG-EVE.com/BMBE BIG Merchant Bank of EVE \| BMBE ISK Loans \| the all mighty BIG industrial corp from hell with a slong the size of a walrus...
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.12.06 02:16:00 - [3] Yay for BMBE Good job getting the publicity out, Ray McCormack. -[23] Member- Awesome new space games site, from the editor of E-ON!
Kesslan Osefice Panther's Paw Industries Ltd	Posted - 2006.12.06 04:22:00 - [4] Sounds interesting but what if any guarantee is there for the corp taking advantage of the loan? Also who markets the product? Would it be the corp or BMBE? Also if it it BMBE selling the product to pay back the loan, what percentage, if any is seen by the corp taking the loan? Afterall theres allways additional expenses to take into account for both corps. Perhaps I've missed something somewhere but those are certainly things that immediately come to mind for me. ___ This space for rent! ___ Yay we finally have a forum: http://pantherspaw.freehostia.com/
Baun 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.12.06 05:50:00 - [5] Originally by: Kesslan Osefice Sounds interesting but what if any guarantee is there for the corp taking advantage of the loan? Also who markets the product? Would it be the corp or BMBE? Also if it it BMBE selling the product to pay back the loan, what percentage, if any is seen by the corp taking the loan? Afterall theres allways additional expenses to take into account for both corps. Perhaps I've missed something somewhere but those are certainly things that immediately come to mind for me. This might answer some questions that you did not present but here is how it works: 1. You give BMBE some % of the isk for the BPO you want to buy, they buy the BPO (you have to negotiate with them first ;p). 2. BMBE recieves the BPO and you start owing weekly payment to them for the loan amount. 3. If you so choose you can give BMBE the materials needed to build from the BPO. 4. BMBE gives you the product from the BPO to do with what you please. 5. You pay off the loan (primarily from its own production) and walk away with a fully owned t2 BPO. The Enemy's Gate is Down
Nimie	Posted - 2006.12.06 07:50:00 - [6] what if you wanted to back out of the loan? for instance, after you were half way through paying for the loan, something happened and you wouldn't be around for a while. for instance, if you paided 40b of a 60b loan, because it is a t2 bpo how would you split this if someone needed to leave? where would the goods from the bpo be produced? sorry if this been asked before. i belive your taranis link is wrong. the real one is here http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=437608
Joshua Foiritain Gallente Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.06 09:18:00 - [7] Originally by: Nimie what if you wanted to back out of the loan? for instance, after you were half way through paying for the loan, something happened and you wouldn't be around for a while. for instance, if you paided 40b of a 60b loan, because it is a t2 bpo how would you split this if someone needed to leave? where would the goods from the bpo be produced? sorry if this been asked before. I assume theyd sell off the bpo and split the money? Cant really cut a bpo in half, that would make it blueprint confetti ----- [Coreli Corporation Mainframe]
Tami Auryn Natural Evolution	Posted - 2006.12.06 11:02:00 - [8] I have to give credit were it's due, and critic were it's due also. In this case i see a "Ray" of hope :) I think my past critics of BMBE have all been justified, with Ray as a go two person, i see things improving. It is going to be interesting to see how a diferent person in charge of a project makes a huge diference. thumbs up BMBE ISK Loans
EFS Manager Eve Financial Services	Posted - 2006.12.06 15:32:00 - [9] Originally by: Baun 5. You pay off the loan (primarily from its own production) and walk away with a fully owned t2 BPO. I would disagree with you there. Very few if any BPOs sell lately with a yield of more than 6%, and most with only a 4-5% yield. Taking into account that you can expect say 5% per month of the purchase price to come from the production of the BPO (assuming it is 24/7) you will really be loosing Isk buying this way unless you get a REALLY good deal on a BPO. The lowest interest that BMBE is now charging (according to them) is 1.9% per week, but seeing as for this loan type they charge you interest on the amount you have paid back as well, the actual interest you are paying is effectively more along the lines of 2.85% per week effective. The other loan type (fixed interest) is 2.9% per week. So the best effective interest that you can hope for is 12.21% per month (30 day month). So in a situation where you are earning 5% per month from production and paying 12.21% per month, you are actually loosing over 7% per month. Now, if you have that 7% per month you would be far better off just saving it up until you had enough Isk to buy the BPO outright. So what has changed? The answer is BPO prices. It used to be common to buy a BPO for a 12-15% yield, but in the last 6 months that has changed drastically. The other question that I have that BMBE seems conspicuously silent on is the issue of their fee for managing these loans. Initially their fee was really half of the distributed profit each month, but that was when they were going to provide lots of small loans which required a lot more work. Right now the work needed to manage loans on BPOs is inconsequential compared to the initial plan, yet the fee remains ludicrously high! Most other public companies charge a 10-15% management fee and that is where HUGE amount of work are needed. STUFF for example get charged a 10% fee by Dark Shikari, and that job takes a significant amount of work every day and not just a once a week check to see if interest was paid. I don't expect TornSoul to give up this cash cow at all, even though it is in my opinion unethical to continue with something that has paid next to nothing over it's life to the investors but was sold on promises of massive returns. I'm afraid investors and clients are both getting the short end of the stick... Sorry to see a good name be flushed down the toilet. Sincerely, EFS Manager
Ray McCormack BIG	Posted - 2006.12.06 15:57:00 - [10] Originally by: Tami Auryn It is going to be interesting to see how a diferent person in charge of a project makes a huge diference. TornSoul is still the person responsible for this, I'm just providing support and an interface between you and him. Originally by: Nimie what if you wanted to back out of the loan? That is something TornSoul would decide. I'd presume the loan would be defaulted and the BPO sold to recoup losses unless a suitable compromise could be worked out between both parties. Originally by: Kesslan Osefice Sounds interesting but what if any guarantee is there for the corp taking advantage of the loan? If you're after a guarantee from the BMBE that your collateral will be secure, then you have one in the form of our word. We would not throw the reputation of BIG away for any price. Originally by: Kesslan Osefice Also who markets the product? Would it be the corp or BMBE? Baun outlined the ideal structure of a loan agreement with the BMBE. Variations are possible, though, with BIG taking control of all production and marketing. But those details would have to be discussed and decided upon at the time of the loan agreement. \| How To Afford A Tech II BPO \| the all mighty BIG industrial corp from hell with a slong the size of a walrus.
Baun 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.12.06 17:03:00 - [11] Originally by: EFS Manager Now, if you have that 7% per month you would be far better off just saving it up until you had enough Isk to buy the BPO outright. Would you? Not having to liquidate assets to buy that expensive BPO might well be worth it to take a bit of a loss. Furthermore, what guarantee do you have that the BPO you want will be available after you have saved up. BMBE is bassically allowing you to reinvest your money as you get it instead of holding alot in reserve just in case you find a BPO you want to buy. Of course this service doesn't leave you as well off as you would be if you didn't have to pay interest. Why, however, should you expect it to? Quote: The other question that I have that BMBE seems conspicuously silent on is the issue of their fee for managing these loans. Initially their fee was really half of the distributed profit each month, but that was when they were going to provide lots of small loans which required a lot more work. This definitely needs to be discussed and it cannot be ignored any longer. BMBE needs to step down its cut substantially. The Enemy's Gate is Down
Ray McCormack BIG	Posted - 2006.12.06 18:13:00 - [12] Originally by: Baun Originally by: EFS Manager Now, if you have that 7% per month you would be far better off just saving it up until you had enough Isk to buy the BPO outright. Would you? Not having to liquidate assets to buy that expensive BPO might well be worth it to take a bit of a loss. The merits of the BMBE increasing your buying power have been discussed before. It effectively allows you to increase your income without requiring liquid assets. This may involve a short-term loss, but the long term benefits usually far outweigh that. One of the specific benefits I'm trying to highlight here is the ability the BMBE gives you to utilise dormant assets without having to liquidate them. If you're saving up to enter this market already, the BMBE is simply a boost to get into it quicker. Yes of course it would be better to save that ISK up yourself and buy the BPO, but that's the same for anything in life. If the sums add up and the oppurtunity arises, you can get involved in the Tech II market far quicker with the BMBE than you could by yourself. That 7% Eefrit mentions equates to about a month. \| How To Afford A Tech II BPO \| the all mighty BIG industrial corp from hell with a slong the size of a walrus.
Baun 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.12.06 18:48:00 - [13] Care not to conveniently ignore the compensation question Ray? ;p The Enemy's Gate is Down
Montaire Lacedaemon. Sparta Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.06 19:43:00 - [14] Hey Ray, wanna drop me a line on msn. [email protected] or [email protected] on gmail chat. Originally by: Ray McCormack Originally by: Baun Originally by: EFS Manager Now, if you have that 7% per month you would be far better off just saving it up until you had enough Isk to buy the BPO outright. Would you? Not having to liquidate assets to buy that expensive BPO might well be worth it to take a bit of a loss. The merits of the BMBE increasing your buying power have been discussed before. It effectively allows you to increase your income without requiring liquid assets. This may involve a short-term loss, but the long term benefits usually far outweigh that. One of the specific benefits I'm trying to highlight here is the ability the BMBE gives you to utilise dormant assets without having to liquidate them. If you're saving up to enter this market already, the BMBE is simply a boost to get into it quicker. Yes of course it would be better to save that ISK up yourself and buy the BPO, but that's the same for anything in life. If the sums add up and the oppurtunity arises, you can get involved in the Tech II market far quicker with the BMBE than you could by yourself. That 7% Eefrit mentions equates to about a month.
Ray McCormack BIG	Posted - 2006.12.06 19:48:00 - [15] Originally by: Baun Care not to conveniently ignore the compensation question Ray? ;p I'm in no position to discuss that, Baun. I'm a contact point for interested parties when it comes to utilising the services of the BMBE. If you want to argue the finer points of the BMBE's structure you know the man to go to. Also, discussion on this matter is best kept in a Shareholder's Report thread. \| How To Afford A Tech II BPO \| the all mighty BIG industrial corp from hell with a slong the size of a walrus.
EFS Manager Eve Financial Services	Posted - 2006.12.06 21:16:00 - [16] Originally by: Ray McCormack Also, discussion on this matter is best kept in a Shareholder's Report thread. The issue has been raised numerous times in many threads, and so far there has not even been an attempt to answer it that I know of. People agreed to such a disproportionately high fee when they were promised returns in the region of 10% per month (actually it was more than that). That fee is no longer even vaguely justified and not answering legitimate concerns regarding it is a huge endictment on BMBE in general. Sincerely, EFS Manager
Montaire Lacedaemon. Sparta Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.06 21:46:00 - [17] Originally by: EFS Manager Originally by: Ray McCormack Also, discussion on this matter is best kept in a Shareholder's Report thread. The issue has been raised numerous times in many threads, and so far there has not even been an attempt to answer it that I know of. People agreed to such a disproportionately high fee when they were promised returns in the region of 10% per month (actually it was more than that). That fee is no longer even vaguely justified and not answering legitimate concerns regarding it is a huge endictment on BMBE in general. Sincerely, EFS Manager Were you granted some sort of oversight when you invested ? Was any sort of advisory role set up for investors ? I know a lot of people had questions about BMBE, but then those same people are "demanding" answers. But they invested knowing they wouldnt have a seat on the board. Im very confused by this.
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.12.06 22:01:00 - [18] Originally by: Montaire Originally by: EFS Manager Originally by: Ray McCormack Also, discussion on this matter is best kept in a Shareholder's Report thread. The issue has been raised numerous times in many threads, and so far there has not even been an attempt to answer it that I know of. People agreed to such a disproportionately high fee when they were promised returns in the region of 10% per month (actually it was more than that). That fee is no longer even vaguely justified and not answering legitimate concerns regarding it is a huge endictment on BMBE in general. Sincerely, EFS Manager Were you granted some sort of oversight when you invested ? Was any sort of advisory role set up for investors ? I know a lot of people had questions about BMBE, but then those same people are "demanding" answers. But they invested knowing they wouldnt have a seat on the board. Im very confused by this. No public corporation in EVE has a right to refuse to answer shareholder questions without very good reason. A "spot on the board" has nothing to do with it. -[23] Member- Awesome new space games site, from the editor of E-ON!
Nimie	Posted - 2006.12.07 04:43:00 - [19] i think big is trustworthy, so i don't think they're doing anything intentionally bad. so i'll wait and give them the time they need. as for my reasons why, it's probaly because they don't want to kill the dream. because past profits were disappointing, if they cut their profits, it becomes a pocket change plan. they're probaly hoping they can turn things around without cuting their profits. it's not really a bad thing, since it shows that they're very serious about making things work.
EFS Manager Eve Financial Services	Posted - 2006.12.07 18:13:00 - [20] One thing I will say in BMBE's favour is that Ray is communicating with shareholders much better than was the case before. Ray, thanks for taking the time to answer what you can and for making it look like BMBE is not just ignoring everyone (although I still think that TS needs to answer the question of fees). /EFS Manager
Hellspawn01 Amarr	Posted - 2006.12.08 13:37:00 - [21] Gotta love the payouts (55k this month), now I can buy some more hookers to celebrate this. Ship lovers click here
TornSoul BIG R i s e	Posted - 2006.12.13 22:02:00 - [22] Originally by: EFS Manager One thing I will say in BMBE's favour is that Ray is communicating with shareholders much better than was the case before. I love him too Originally by: EFS Manager Ray, thanks for taking the time to answer what you can and for making it look like BMBE is not just ignoring everyone (although I still think that TS needs to answer the question of fees). /EFS Manager Firstly - I want Ray to "be in control" of this thread. So this post is likely to be my only response in this thread. I hope you can understand and respect this. Ie. I want to profile Ray - And not "step in his lights" ------------------- Fees I'll make it short, and you wont like it. There is no current plans of changing the fees. 40/40/20 is how it will stay for a good while. The only thing that can really convince me to change that (I reserve the right to change my mind in the future) will be if more IPO's (or more correctly Second Offering's) are launched. The ratio specifically I'm pretty stubborn about keeping it X/X/Y. Where X equals the admin fees and the amount the shareholders gets. With more IPO's, I'm not necessarily alian to reduce X further and thus increase Y. In some far far far future - a ratio of 10/10/80 could be interesting (for examples sake) This is assuming a lot of new IPO's and a thriving busy business. The result would be, that shareholders would still get a reasonnable amount of dividend (and more than now, else it would be pointless), but also that the "capital worth" of the BMBE would increase drastically each month - and thereby the value of the shares. Thus at such a time actually make it worth trading in BMBE shares for profit (as it's assumed the value of those would go up "alot" each new dividend round). This is but a pipedream (and a huge heap of assumptions, so dont bother picking it apart!) atm though - And it's very unlikely it'll ever happen imo. But one can dream - Right? ------------- Personal note : I like making ISK, The only thing I like more, is making ISK for others at the same time. Ie. open up avenues for others to make a cent or two, avenues that would otherwise not be there at all. But I'm not 100% altruistic, I definatly want my cut of the cake as well. I got a huge corp to support. If you disagree with our cut of the cake... well... I'm sorry, truly!, but we'll just have to disagree about that. That doesnt mean I dont listen, nor that I cant be convinced to change my mind (as with the 40/40/20 and using t2 bpo's as collateral), but it does mean I dont give much for the "indignation" about the size of our adminfee and the feeling it's an 'unfair' cut, compared to the amount of work involved. From my point of view - I've already given away 60% of the profit as it is... I dont feel bad about that anyway though - I absolutly love the concept of the BMBE, it's a form of symbiosis (and those are Good Things(tm) in my book) - We (BIG and the shareholders) together has formed something that would not be possible for each to do on their own (loosly speaking). Doing those kind of projects is what I truly thrieve on. (The BIG Deal is another such example - Several others as well, but I'll spare you) That we can't agree on who should benefit more or less from this symbiosis, well... tbh, no matter what the ratios of profit division would be, I think that would be the case. It will always be a compromise. (You dont think it's a compromise on my part? Think again!) ----------------- Whops... Much much longer than planned.... /me turns the spotlight towards Ray again, and quietly slips out the door BIG Lottery [u
Baun 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.12.13 22:35:00 - [23] TS you are way off base on this one. There has been zero isk symbiosis beyond whatever shares BIG owns of the BMBE. As such, you pay should be directly proportionate to the value of your work. Lets try to see what that value is: 1. In the initial 50/50 allocation and the initial business plan you would have been responsible for hauling things from every station in EVE and potentially reselling them. This would have required an extraorindary amount of work and would have justified the 50% allocation. 2. Under the new business model all or virtually of your work comes from low maintenance tech 2 production wherein you don't even have to go get the materials needed to produce the BPO. This work cannot possible take longer than a few hours a week. AATP, FIN and many other public ventures do similiar work must more intensively and take approximately 20% of the cut you are taking. 3. The BMBE has made no money for as many months as it has made "full" money. If you are taken to be responsible for the performance of the company as part of the "symbiosis" then you are underperforming and/or simply not doing your job. So to recap: You want to be paid 5 times as much for doing less work compared to others when you are not doing your job well enough compared to those others. If there were symbiosis in the actual risk of the venture or in the capital to start it then you would have a valid point. As it stands now you have no ground to stand on. I know you are stubborn but this is ridiculous. If history is any guide it shouldn't take you too long to wake up. The Enemy's Gate is Down
TornSoul BIG R i s e	Posted - 2006.12.13 23:19:00 - [24] Edited by: TornSoul on 13/12/2006 23:24:19 <snippety> I'm done. Fed up. See you at the next shareholder report. --------- At least keep beeing nice to Ray!!! BIG Lottery [u
Montaire Lacedaemon. Sparta Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.13 23:37:00 - [25] Go ahead guys. Harass the person with 50 BILLION of your isk some more. No, keep at it. When you signed up you knew you dont get to backseat drive. If you dont like the ride get off the darn buss. Sell your shares to me. I'll put up a buy order on EGSE. Otherwise shush. You dont get a say, deal with it. You knew it from the beginnnig.
Erfnam Time Cube Syndicate Daikoku Trade Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.13 23:43:00 - [26] Gotta love internet caches. ;) Does BIG ever dip in to the BMBE ISK for short term loans? If so, is this interest free? Is all of the unallocated ISK still in the corporate or personal wallet? Can you post a screenshot of the wallet? The longer I think about it, the less I can believe that so much ISK would just sit idle. Time Cube Syndicate is recruiting
Baun 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.12.13 23:45:00 - [27] Originally by: TornSoul Edited by: TornSoul on 13/12/2006 23:24:19 <snippety> I'm done. Fed up. See you at the next shareholder report. --------- At least keep beeing nice to Ray!!! I am not being mean to you TS, I <3 you. I am telling the truth. The Enemy's Gate is Down
Baun 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.12.13 23:46:00 - [28] Originally by: Erfnam Gotta love internet caches. ;) Does BIG ever dip in to the BMBE ISK for short term loans? If so, is this interest free? Is all of the unallocated ISK still in the corporate or personal wallet? Can you post a screenshot of the wallet? The longer I think about it, the less I can believe that so much ISK would just sit idle. Believe it. TS might be unjustifiably taking too much salary but he is not a thief. If BIG wants to take out a loan they pay the same interest as anyone else. The Enemy's Gate is Down
Baun 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.12.13 23:47:00 - [29] Originally by: Montaire Go ahead guys. Harass the person with 50 BILLION of your isk some more. No, keep at it. When you signed up you knew you dont get to backseat drive. I always get to backseat drive, especially when TS is driving :). If I had wanted to harass him I would have skipped the check at that last bar in Copenhagen :D The Enemy's Gate is Down
Heikki Gallente Wreckless Abandon The UnAssociated	Posted - 2006.12.14 11:39:00 - [30] Originally by: EFS Manager People agreed to such a disproportionately high fee And such, they should hold on it. We, as capital investors, are in no place to demand answers for questions on whim, especially if such questions are outside of the agreed plan. That is, if people originally felt that trustability of TS/BMBE is good enough to warrant the high management fees, it's a bit too late to complain now. So, just let BMBE do their work, and if their model does feel uncomfortable to you, consider it the next time you invest on some corporation Then again, if you have good suggestions how to improve BMBE's profit (for both shareholders and TS), I am sure they are welcomed. -Lasse

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