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1 grid rig, materials only, no markup: 264 MILLION isk. WTF?

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Gone'Postal Minmatar LuthorCorp Combat Division	Posted - 2006.12.06 08:30:00 - [31] Originally by: Malthros Zenobia ROFL... The man without a face... The company without a clue.
Grimpak Gallente Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.12.06 08:32:00 - [32] Originally by: Strength Cow Originally by: Bellum Eternus Ratting top level BSs in 0.0 (1.8m+ bounties) gives 2-4 components on avg. per wreck. Assuming I get exactly the components I need (highly unlikely) I'm looking at having to kill 300+ BS rats before I can make one rig. The pure man-hours that it takes to accomplish this is ridiculous. Time is the single most expensive thing in Eve. If the time element isn't reduced, the prices won't decrease. What I am about to say is totally right and it will end much of this dispute: For most people who already loot, salvaging will become a typical part of their npcing/mission running they do. As more and more people salvage, more and more rig items will be on the market. Right now there are barely any rig components on the market compared to how many there will be in the future. T1 Rigs, unlike T2 items, cannot be controlled. There more players there are, the more players there will be getting rig components. Here is the critical point: You cant say it takes 40 man hours to make one rig because the in many cases, much of the time you use gathering the rig parts is not spent only gathering the rigs, but doing what you ALREADY WOOULD HAVE BEEN DOING (aka ratting/mission running/pvping). I estimate tech 1 rigs will cost between 15-40 million isk each once prices stabilize. while correct, I can't see why the rig bpo's will have a price, and the rigs will have a markup 400 or even 500% higher than the bpo price. so yes, by atempting not making T1 rigs a "must have" to everyone, CCP transforms them in a tool to make the rich people more powerfull and the poor people the underdogs. increasing the drop rate to more sensible values should be ok. It's a T1 module. as far as T2 rigs go, imho atm it's ok as it is. ------- Originally by: Tiuwaz for caldari perception weapons that hit up to 100km are short range weapons
DeadDuck Omega Enterprises Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.12.06 08:35:00 - [33] Originally by: Lorn Yeager Look, you cant complain about something being "hard" to create or "expensive" to buy. Thats just rediculous. To me, it makes perfect sense that rigs are rare and somewhat expensive. But note, no-one can monopolise the production of them. You may have expected something more abundant, but it isnt. So please. Adapt and adjust. Next whine please. Rare ??? The dam BPO's is available to everyone ... I'm tired of watching EVE flooded with "rare items" .... Rare HACS ... Rare faction stuff ... Rare Official stuff ... NOW... RARE Rigs... Rigs are now part of a setup... they have been introduced to increase the variety of the setups being used .... not to be rare. If that was the case they would make it droping in cosmo missions or from elite faction NPC's !!!! the market is flooded with bpo's, is obvious that CCP wants them to be on current use, but the building requirements are insane or the drop rates are just to low. For more expensive rigs you have the TEC2 ones... and if it continues like this they will never will be built !!! Is OBVIOUS that rigs need a fix... stop the "have to be rare thing" how stupid this is that a burned and not functioning item is more expensive then the actual thing working ... Is like if in real life a wrecked car was sellling for millions so that you could increase your brand new car velocity for 10% .... I believe that junkyards have been invented for ages...
Strength Cow	Posted - 2006.12.06 08:40:00 - [34] Originally by: Grimpak increasing the drop rate to more sensible values should be ok. It's a T1 module. as far as T2 rigs go, imho atm it's ok as it is. I don't want to see what happened with most hardwiring happen with rigs. I LOL every time I see a +3% ROF, damage or speed bonus implant sell for 4000 isk or some silly amount. What a joke. Standard learning implants are T1 but their price is in the 20m range (huge average). The bonuses rigs give are pretty amazing and I think they are WORTH 15-40m isk, at least. If you want to spent the isk, you can specialize your ship/abilities in yet another way, and all of them are similarily expensive: Upgrade to t2 Use combat boosters Use rigs Use good implants Upgrade to faction mods Use all of these at the same time and you will spend tons of isk but have a pretty fricking amazing (and surprising) ship. Adding heat later on will make things even more interesting. And adding nebulae that can be used tactically on the battle field. And gang bonuses. Etc. I like how complex EVE is becomming combat wise, and now I'm off topic some.
Faraelle Brightman Gallente Placid Reborn Placid Coalition	Posted - 2006.12.06 09:10:00 - [35] Ah, Rigs. Rare "trump cards" for the rich or junky bits everyone is meant to play with? That (and the people who, one way or another, want to make a good return on their time/money investment) is still the debate. Let's consider: Skills. Jury Rigging - Rank 2 skill. Pre-req of Mechanic III (which you can get from character creation with the right options now). Cost: 54k ISK (easily affordable by anyone who's played for a day or two. Covers: A lot of "basic" rigs, those that can apply to all ships. Cap, Grid, CPU, etc. (Guess what? My most persistant ship fitting headaches as a really new newbie? Cap, Grid and CPU.) <Specialization> Rigging - Rank 3 skill. Pre-req Jury Rigging III. Cost: 90k ISK Covers: More specialized rigs, i.e. Armor Rigs, Propusion rigs, assorted weapon rigs. Atron - Pre Req, Gallente Frigate II. Popular entry-level ship. Cost: around 30k depending on the market. Rig slots: 3 (Calibration points: 400). This ain't the new Tech II, people. "Jury-Rig", by definition, is something makeshift, a kludge to make something work in a way it wasn't built for. It will probably have its elite sector as well (think "tricked-out" cars), but nothing at all like T2 where I have to train up a bunch of skills to 5, buy a skill in the 1mill and up range, etc. Yes, the prices are probably going to come down, but, IMO, it's not going to happen without futher balancing on the salvage drop rate vs component cost. Based on the above, I suspect CCP might adjust thing so that the basic rigs end up being worth a few hundred thousand each at most and the specialized rigs starting to creep up into the millions. (And I really hope so, being in the position where droping 4-6 million on a cruiser or advanced learning skill is a very large investment for me.) Whiners say: But...but...if rigs aren't expensive, it won't be worth anyone's time to salvage/build them! Then CCP will adjust the balance so that it is. Don't dismiss "cheap" is not being worth your time. "Worth your time" will happen when and wherever Supply and Demand come to terms with each other. After all, plenty of people are mining Veldspar...

Oveur	Posted - 2006.12.06 09:26:00 - [36] Wait for the market to settle and the salvaging improvements in next patch to hit. #7 Senior Producer EVE Online

Victor Valka Caldari Archon Industries	Posted - 2006.12.06 09:29:00 - [37] Originally by: Oveur Wait for the market to settle and the salvaging improvements in next patch to hit. #7 Is that #7 the number of threads about this? Originally by: Diana Marc Notice that BoB is agreeing with RA's concern. That's like Elrond and Sauron agreeing to reduce carbon emissions.
Faraelle Brightman Gallente Placid Reborn Placid Coalition	Posted - 2006.12.06 09:36:00 - [38] Originally by: Oveur Wait for the market to settle and the salvaging improvements in next patch to hit. #7 sends some tea over to Iceland Gotta keep awake to keep answering the same questions over and over again! Figure it's inevitible, will just be waiting for the detailed anouncement.
Shadowsword COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2006.12.06 09:52:00 - [39] Originally by: Victor Valka Originally by: Oveur Wait for the market to settle and the salvaging improvements in next patch to hit. #7 Is that #7 the number of threads about this? No, it's the seventh time he said "we improved it, wait a bit" in a similar thread. The number of threads about salvaging likely reached 100+ by now... ------------------------------------------ Every ship has a base 60-70% resist against the primary damage type of the race that is the least able to vary it's damage types.
Pantheon Lea Farmer Boyz	Posted - 2006.12.06 10:03:00 - [40] Originally by: Death Priest Think about it People. #1 Eve needs a Isk siphon. #2.CCP sells time Codes. #3.People buy timecodes for ISK. #4.Isk is used to buy Rigs #5.Win Win for CCP = Good Business/High Real Cash Profit. Arrrr, thats so sad, time to seed som new T2 stuff just for you: Pantheon Lea
Fortior STK Scientific Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.12.06 10:08:00 - [41] Alright, Salvaging is a profession readily available to everyone (even more so after the patch). Rig BPOs are seeded on the market. This alone should shut everyone up really. Prices are high because everyone and his dog wants these things but not enough people are farming the components. And there might just be a little thing over att CCP that wants these things to be rare as well. Oh my goodness, an implant for your ship that greatly increases tank or gank that's rare? The sky must surely be falling! The only reason people are whining about this is that there's a new and shiny toy available and THEY SIMPLY MUST HAVE IT! (Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahmbulance alert!) Shut up and start salvaging belt rats or player ships FFS.
Inspiration	Posted - 2006.12.06 10:09:00 - [42] Edited by: Inspiration on 06/12/2006 10:10:23 With one T1 rig basicly giving your ship the extra power that used to require a top of the line officer mod at several billion ISK, and at no expense of CPU, nor powergrid. Do you realy want these rigss to drop out of the sky like candy and find it unreasonable they are hard to make?
KIAEddZ Caldari KIA Corp	Posted - 2006.12.06 10:15:00 - [43] Edited by: KIAEddZ on 06/12/2006 10:18:17 reading this thread... i am missing something I think. People are saying it should be difficult to produce Rigs etc... but I thought CCP introduced rigs to make ships variable, to mean that battles wouldn't be interchangeable, that everytime you appraoched a fight, knowing the ship wouldnt mean knowing how to beat it. If rigs arent for the masses, only for the elite and rich (of which I am one) then this doesnt change the game at all, this just makes the difference between my ships (the rich guy) and your ships (the poor guy) even bigger, already my 1 billion isk clones and officer/rare modules seperate us, now more seperation??? I for one do not want to see this happen... they should be available to the masses, no more expensive than modules, everyone should have rigs attached to their ships, and at last we may see an evolution in PvP.... it would certainly brighten up the Corp Championships if nothing else. KIA EVE Home
Queen Hades	Posted - 2006.12.06 10:15:00 - [44] Originally by: Inspiration Edited by: Inspiration on 06/12/2006 10:10:23 With one T1 rig basicly giving your ship the extra power that used to require a top of the line officer mod at several billion ISK, and at no expense of CPU, nor powergrid. Do you realy want these rigss to drop out of the sky like candy and find it unreasonable they are hard to make? If they are not common they only increase the gap between t2 bpo owners / big alliances and the rest of the population further.
Rafein Eye of God Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.12.06 10:17:00 - [45] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Originally by: Flaming Lemming odds are the uber-prices won't last too terribly long. I just flew 2 level 4 missions, wound up salvaging over 50 components from them, with salvage only at level 2. As more people take up salvaging, more components will come onto the market, and preice will fall...just give it time. Ratting top level BSs in 0.0 (1.8m+ bounties) gives 2-4 components on avg. per wreck. Assuming I get exactly the components I need (highly unlikely) I'm looking at having to kill 300+ BS rats before I can make one rig. The pure man-hours that it takes to accomplish this is ridiculous. Time is the single most expensive thing in Eve. If the time element isn't reduced, the prices won't decrease. That's why it's a profession. Get a gang out chaing belts, and one salvager running around, cleaning up.
Inspiration	Posted - 2006.12.06 10:25:00 - [46] Everyone and their dog can start salvaging and build the rigs themselfs, given they invest time. There is no monopoly of the rich. So all arguments that only the rich can aquire them or that increases the gap of non T2 bpo owners and T2 BPO owners is bullocs for the same reason. If anything the T@ bpo owners find their market schrinking as there is something new more powerful on the market. Right now demand is stellar for rigs, and to few people have adopted to aquiering the neccecary oarts with any efficiency. This given time will change ofcourse. So....give it time!
Algey ISS Navy Task Force Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.06 10:37:00 - [47] Who would use rigs on a frigate unless their price was incredibly low. That said, who wouldn't use rigs on a capital ship even at high prices. What really concerns me is that there is no size class for the rigs. I think that is a terrible shame for the balance of the game. A grid rig on a merlin isn't going to be anything like a grid rig on a dread, yet comes at exactly the same cost If the light ship grid rigs were easier to make (in resource terms), and the cap ship rigs even more expensive we could ahve some interesting diversity, from small corps making rigs for frigates in new areas, to huge concerns gathering the vast resources needed to make rigs for the capital ships.
Phyrr Minmatar The Gosimer and Scarab	Posted - 2006.12.06 11:04:00 - [48] Originally by: Malthros Zenobia
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2006.12.06 11:06:00 - [49] My 2 cents: make different size rigs for the different class ships /signed I suggest to lower the material requirement and the bonus/malus too. A rigs should give a bonus equivalent to a basic T1 module or a little more, so that the ship with the rigs get the equivalent of at most 3 extra basic modules, not the equivalent of 3 officer ones, even if with serious drawbacks. A question. The standard solution offered is: Get a "mule" player doing the janitor work of cleaning the wrecks and the loot after the fighter ones. That is the standard "use" that big alliances have for new members? It is equivalent of slave work, and paying for the privilege too. I salvage for myself and my friends, but not if my work will be hoarded by a corporation for the top tiers players.
CharlieMurphy Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2006.12.06 11:11:00 - [50] one thing to be said for expensive rigs tho if you then switch bountys from the player to the ship (yes i know its been suggested b4) then bounty hunting would become much more fun maybe you could even allow locator agents to find ships and not just players and you have a whole new mini profession
Argenton Sayvers	Posted - 2006.12.06 11:18:00 - [51] Edited by: Argenton Sayvers on 06/12/2006 11:26:37 Originally by: Strength Cow Here is the critical point: You cant say it takes 40 man hours to make one rig because the in many cases, much of the time you use gathering the rig parts is not spent only gathering the rigs, but doing what you ALREADY WOOULD HAVE BEEN DOING (aka ratting/mission running/pvping). I estimate tech 1 rigs will cost between 15-40 million isk each once prices stabilize. Its a bit more complex. Time spent salvaging instead of doing something, and time spent doing something to be able to salvage (wreck generation aka mission running). I am not buying rigs right now because i expect prices to drop. If prices dont drop, people like me will offer billions for certain rigs. Now it all will depend on how many rigs the players of eve can generate versus the amount of rich players trying to get huge advantages. I think you all underestimate the demand: every single cap ship, mission runner raven, and all the faction combat ships (all those rich players using domination vagabonds ...) will need a full set. Of certain rigs, most are pretty useless. Prices for those will go through the roof, and all rigs that share components with them will never be built. What you dont understand either is that even though rigs might sell for billions, the players making them dont get rich at all. The reason being is that the high prices are not caused by restrictions and barriers of entry, but by work hours needed. Work hours can be put into mission running, mining etc... Of course, all of that depends on the balance of supply. And Oveur said repeatedly that its going to change. After seeing your fix to Hubs (totally nerfing trading outside of Hubs, even nerfing secondary hubs, forcing everyone to cluster up in Jital...), i am a bit sceptical.
Amarria Lightwielder N.A.G.A Corporation	Posted - 2006.12.06 11:24:00 - [52] Originally by: Malthros Zenobia Ah haha, no need to read any further, that made my day :) I want that bpo btw :) -- -- Sound in EVE
Bellum Eternus Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.12.06 11:28:00 - [53] Originally by: Oveur Wait for the market to settle and the salvaging improvements in next patch to hit. #7 Thx Oveur If at first you don't succeed, get a bigger hammer.
Crumplecorn Gallente Aerial Boundaries Inc. Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.06 11:34:00 - [54] Don't get people who say rigs are supposed to be expensive/rare; 2 things: Rigs are supposed to vary ship setups Rigs are supposed to go on T1 frigates (notice the rig slots on them) If rigs cost even 10M each they fail on both these counts. ---------- IBTL \o/ EVE is upside down! WTZ+Slower Warp=Win
Kagura Nikon	Posted - 2006.12.06 11:36:00 - [55] Thge issue is not the price.. is rather.. why anyone would loose time to make 1 rig to fit in a ship? It is much cheaper to loose the ship and buy it again. The only ship i can understand see with 3 rigs is a machariel...
CharlieMurphy Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2006.12.06 11:37:00 - [56] Originally by: Crumplecorn Don't get people who say rigs are supposed to be expensive/rare; 2 things: Rigs are supposed to vary ship setups Rigs are supposed to go on T1 frigates (notice the rig slots on them) If rigs cost even 10M each they fail on both these counts. yes indeed now tell me how the market will ever be in a position to let a t1 frigate fit 3 rigs for less than 2x the cost of that frigate rigs need to be split into different sizes
Deathsoul Caldari Evolution	Posted - 2006.12.06 11:40:00 - [57] Does ewery eve player want new things to be able in less than 3-4 days from patch ? How fast will we hit the end of eve if we would get all new items on 100k isk cost in less than a week from theyr born in tq server. Have allot of eve players forgot this is not pac-man, you dont go and play for 7 minutes and hit the hi-score, or is that the way we wana play eve, for me i say no i dont wana finish to get all new stuff in the game in my hangar in less than 1 week, thats why i have been here for long time, to maby get most of it to my hangar at the end, but i know it takes time and i know it takes teamwork.
Dendrin Koljn Minmatar Elite United Corp	Posted - 2006.12.06 11:42:00 - [58] What on earth is up with people !! With the Massive availability of wrecks, even with the 20-30% drop rate im getting atm, gonna cost me (for the little bit of extra time to salvage - and i only got salvage 2 + 1 salvager fitted atm) about 50-75K to build a rig. - Just wont be able to build hundreds at a time for a while. (RANT) I'm sure if CCP introduced paint for ships..the first thing that would happen would be people complaining that it's not the colour they wanted or the wrong shade I'd love CCP to permaban all those players that do nothing more than post moans on the forum continually, just because they cant get all the new/best stuff without actually playing the game. (/RANT)
Xsag Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2006.12.06 11:44:00 - [59] maybe IM missing the point but i think the rigs are great - they give newish players the opportunity to construct items that are in high demand - with the main cost being only time! as a side note i would also add the cost of rigs being sold is irrelevant if u make ur own and fit them to your own ships - i for one would very much like to fit 2 or 3 to both my cara and my ferox. my 2 cents :-) ~n00b of all trades~ ~~Airkio~~ / ~~Muvolailen~~ ~if im posting on here its cos im in work~
Devious	Posted - 2006.12.06 11:46:00 - [60] Im sooooooooooooo gonna get me rich !!!11one!1one!!!

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