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Herabec
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Posted - 2003.11.19 09:09:00 -
[1]
Sorry if this has been suggested before.
It occurs to me that the risk of losing your ship is the biggest reason people are afraid to venture into dangerous areas and avoid PvP all together.
I think the problem is the cost of insurance. As a possible solution, I propose they lower the cost of insurance so it is alot more reasonable on all ships and when your ship gets killed you get the same ship as a replacement rather then money.
Or this could be a different type of insurance, that if another player kills you, you get a replacement ship rather then money.
I know if I could get my BS replaced and not have to spend 10% of the cost on insurance I would be alot more willing to head through pirate areas.
Thoughts?
In-Game Forums |
Discorporation
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Posted - 2003.11.19 09:15:00 -
[2]
The length of the insurance has already been increased to 3 weeks.
Someone in a frigate can easily make the money needed for insurance in that time.
This goes the same for anyone in a cruiser, or battleship.
(Someone who can't make 30 million in 3 weeks in a bship needs to self-destruct it)
(that does not go for me)
[Heterocephalus glaber]
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Aelita
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Posted - 2003.11.19 10:35:00 -
[3]
Nah. Insurance is problem for PvP. Not to mention modules and weapons cost. Now Implants.
With all that stuff people will frankly accept any PvP risk to loose over 100mil in few seconds no matter of what you telling. Getting 30mil+ in three weeks is over 20 hours in game.
Sorry it's ONLY GAME IT COULDN'T TAKE ALL OUR TIME.
Hardcore players will may be accept PvP with hands of full time to play game. Normal plyer who have less than 8 hours per week for play will not, definetely.
PvP penalty in EVE is so big and only few people does accept true PvP in game at all. Me persoanlly take PvP only in case when I'm using my second alt in frigate only.
That alt has no more than 1mil SP, no Implants and frigate with equipment cost less than 200k ISK. Only in this case I enjoy any PvP just because I can replace all my stuff in 15 minutes.
This game is like Quake in PvP so I would accept only Quake-ish time spend on recovering.
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Omniwar
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Posted - 2003.11.19 11:45:00 -
[4]
 Quote:
I think the problem is the cost of insurance. As a possible solution, I propose they lower the cost of insurance so it is alot more reasonable on all ships and when your ship gets killed you get the same ship as a replacement rather then money.
So now you want builders to build even more ships just to insure them and blow them up for the isk ?
Quote:
Or this could be a different type of insurance, that if another player kills you, you get a replacement ship rather then money.
And now you want builder to quit because they can only sell every player one ship and after that they get a ship from CONCORD?
Perhaps we just need less minerals for ships and items or more ore per minute when mining, that way you could build/buy a ship in a very short time.
But then fights wouldnt mean anything, no matter how many times you would kill your enemy he would always have a new ship in 1-2 days, even today when someone gets killed he will have a new ship when he gets to station, heck after you buy a new ship and insurance you only loose 10 millions with premium insurance, so for average player he can pretty much loose 1 battleship every other day easy.
When I fight my enemies I think it sux that they will come the day after in a new ship, wars today are meaningless and are only really for the fun of PVP.
Spawn of the Devil
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Infinity Ziona
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Posted - 2003.11.19 11:47:00 -
[5]
I think your missing the point of EVE. Its about working with other people which means joining corporations and alliances. More people means when someone loses a ship its ship cost / number of people, to replace.
Secondly once the initial 18 or so million is saved up for platinum insurance your total loss on a ship is around 6 million IE
50 Million isk ship
18 Million insurance
You get on destruction 62 million isk.
Thats very reasonable.
It lasts for 3 weeks which is 21 days, you only need to spend 1 hour per day making 1 million isk to more then cover the 3 week cost of insurance.
Also, you can have just as much fun PvP in a cruiser if not more then in a battleship because theres less to lose and you can actually make a profit when you get killed. Theres at least a 10:1 ratio of cruiser / battleship where I mess around (molden heath).
Infinity
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Slinky Redfoot
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Posted - 2003.11.19 12:08:00 -
[6]
Or lets have the option of insuring everything.Life insurance, ship insurance, implant insurance, module insurance, insurance against scams, insurance against exploits, insurance against PvP'ing when you don't want to, insurance against CTD, insurance against lag..
But then eve would be like playing Pong without anyone keeping the score.
Player 1:I killed you-again!
Player 2:Who cares.
Got Banana? |
Omniwar
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Posted - 2003.11.19 12:13:00 -
[7]
Quote:
I think your missing the point of EVE. Its about working with other people which means joining corporations and alliances. More people means when someone loses a ship its ship cost / number of people, to replace.
Secondly once the initial 18 or so million is saved up for platinum insurance your total loss on a ship is around 6 million IE
50 Million isk ship
18 Million insurance
You get on destruction 62 million isk.
Thats very reasonable.
It lasts for 3 weeks which is 21 days, you only need to spend 1 hour per day making 1 million isk to more then cover the 3 week cost of insurance.
Also, you can have just as much fun PvP in a cruiser if not more then in a battleship because theres less to lose and you can actually make a profit when you get killed. Theres at least a 10:1 ratio of cruiser / battleship where I mess around (molden heath).
Infinity
Do peaple still fly level 1 battleships 
Spawn of the Devil
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Lucre
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Posted - 2003.11.19 12:31:00 -
[8]
Quote:
When I fight my enemies I think it sux that they will come the day after in a new ship, wars today are meaningless and are only really for the fun of PVP.
Insurance should simply not pay out on ships lost in corp wars. As you say it makes the war meaningless.
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dalman
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Posted - 2003.11.19 12:46:00 -
[9]
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
It's the other way, insurance has to be nerfed.
It's a MMORGP, not counterstrike in space.
M.I.A. since 2004-07-30 |
Veruna Caseti
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Posted - 2003.11.19 14:00:00 -
[10]
How about every ship has a 'value' based on average build requirements and NPC mineral value; insurance can never pay more than 50% of this value.
If a ship is purchased via the Market, insurance will not pay more than 50% of the purchase price.
This way, neither buyers nor manufacturers can profit from ship insurance. It should be a "consolation" not a complete renewal of funds to the time before you even bought the ship. Otherwise, risk becomes irrelevant.
Veruna Caseti
Ishukone |
Macumba
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Posted - 2003.11.19 14:32:00 -
[11]
Couldn't agree less. Insurance needs to be removed or at the very least drastically reduced.
At the moment losing your ship can only benefit you in the long run.
The biggest problem in EVE is that people are flying around in ships they obviously can't afford (or can't afford to lose at any rate). CCP intended battleships to be relatively rare, but because they're so easy to build they're very common. This is why so many people are complaining about PvP, insurance and 0.0 space. They can afford the initial expense of flying one but can't afford to keep it insured and hence they're afraid of losing it.
The people who can afford to lose them aren't afraid of fighting in them because they know damn well they'll make a profit if they get killed. The base minerals you can mine for free, the high-end minerals and modules you pay for with the insurance, and the rest of the money from your insurance goes towards insuring your new ship and it still leaves you with some ISK in your back pocket.
"PVP = griefing" Papa Smurf |
Jarjar
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Posted - 2003.11.19 14:36:00 -
[12]
Quote:
Do peaple still fly level 1 battleships
Yep, I switched from my level 2 to a level 1.
Megathron to scorpion.
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Omniwar
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Posted - 2003.11.19 14:37:00 -
[13]
Quote:
How about every ship has a 'value' based on average build requirements and NPC mineral value; insurance can never pay more than 50% of this value.
If a ship is purchased via the Market, insurance will not pay more than 50% of the purchase price.
This way, neither buyers nor manufacturers can profit from ship insurance. It should be a "consolation" not a complete renewal of funds to the time before you even bought the ship. Otherwise, risk becomes irrelevant.
I lost a Raven with Premium insurance, think I payed 34 millions for the insurance and when I lost the ship I got 108 millions, so if I had bought a new Raven on the market it would cost about 90 millions?
So thats 90 millions for the ship but I still need to insure it again so that another 34 millions, now total 124 millions and I still have to buy all the modules so I can start using the ship, so that would be from 4 to 40 millions but all depends on if you use rare named modules or not, now we have implants as well, 5 implants cost about 35 millions.
So now I have an income of 108 millions but I have to pay 163-199 millions to cover my loss.
And you want to nerf insurance????????
*note* lucky for me I wasnt podded and I could build my own Raven and modules so I only lost about 7 millions on the whole.
Spawn of the Devil
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Baldour Ngarr
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Posted - 2003.11.19 14:41:00 -
[14]
Insurance should vary according to risk; if you get killed in 1.0 space (shouldn't ever happen) it'll pay out 100%; if you get killed in 0.8 space, it might pay out 96%; if you get killed in 0.0 space, it should pay next to nothing ("we insured you on the condition that you would not take unavoidable risks, Mr. Ngarr... trying to jump through FD-MLJ is not an unavoidable risk.") ..and if you're killed as part of a corp war, it shouldn't pay out at all ("Section 14, Subsection 4, Paragraph 6, Subparagraph 3(e) makes quite clear that acts of war are not covered by this contract...")
In this type of game, PvP isn't *supposed* to be something you go looking for; unless you've decided to use piracy to develop, and even then, pirates don't look for fair fights, they look for unguarded indys carrying 500 bistot, and tell the owner his corp has to fork over 3 million ISK or lose the ore.
The objective in any RPG is character development; PvP might be a necessary risk to run, or even a necessary undertaking (clearing a blockade so you can move your stuff through it) ... but it should NEVER be the objective in itself.
_______
"Soon" is an ancient Icelandic word meaning "some time before the next Ice Age." |
Omniwar
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Posted - 2003.11.19 14:47:00 -
[15]
Quote:
At the moment losing your ship can only benefit you in the long run.
You have to be joking 
Quote:
The people who can afford to lose them aren't afraid of fighting in them because they know damn well they'll make a profit if they get killed. The base minerals you can mine for free, the high-end minerals and modules you pay for with the insurance, and the rest of the money from your insurance goes towards insuring your new ship and it still leaves you with some ISK in your back pocket.
So your time mining is worth nothing since it is just time ?
Insurance is needed so that when players are killed they wont be eliminated from the game.
It takes most peaple days if not weeks to mine for a battleship so you are suggesting that insted of playing the game they should mine for days after few seconds of PVP if they loose the fight.
Not everyone has the benifit of multiple accounts as I or access to very rich asteroid belts and hunting spawns.
Dont ask for something that works for you but will make the game a living hell for most peaple.
Spawn of the Devil
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Hackett
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Posted - 2003.11.19 15:05:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Hackett on 19/11/2003 15:06:49
Edited by: Hackett on 19/11/2003 15:06:08
Got to agree with Omniwar there - how can loosing your ship in a PvP situation benefit u? All the rare modules u can loose plus ammo, missles etc (not withstanding loosing implants if u get podded) means that at best it will just start you off again at the bare minimum.
BTW - is that accurate about your insurance Omni? If so bugger going for any more that the basic
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Omniwar
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Posted - 2003.11.19 15:07:00 -
[17]
Quote:
Insurance should vary according to risk; if you get killed in 1.0 space (shouldn't ever happen) it'll pay out 100%; if you get killed in 0.8 space, it might pay out 96%; if you get killed in 0.0 space, it should pay next to nothing ("we insured you on the condition that you would not take unavoidable risks, Mr. Ngarr... trying to jump through FD-MLJ is not an unavoidable risk.") ..and if you're killed as part of a corp war, it shouldn't pay out at all ("Section 14, Subsection 4, Paragraph 6, Subparagraph 3(e) makes quite clear that acts of war are not covered by this contract...")
Most peaple would never ever go to 0.0 if that would happen, and now they are trying to force peple to lower sec systems.
Also most peaple would then probably quit in the corp they were in if they would end up in a corp war, and thus huge player base of EVE would be in NPC corps.
Quote:
In this type of game, PvP isn't *supposed* to be something you go looking for; unless you've decided to use piracy to develop, and even then, pirates don't look for fair fights, they look for unguarded indys carrying 500 bistot, and tell the owner his corp has to fork over 3 million ISK or lose the ore.
The objective in any RPG is character development; PvP might be a necessary risk to run, or even a necessary undertaking (clearing a blockade so you can move your stuff through it) ... but it should NEVER be the objective in itself.
Sorry but PVP was actully supposed to be a much bigger factor in EVE than it is now, there were supposed to be alot more of corp wars than there are today but since most peaple only play seldom they can not afford to loose their ships.
This is NOT RPG, and even if it was I would not play it for "character development" as I only train skills to help me use modules better, but ALL games I play to have fun in, and fun for me is PVP as there anything can happen, dont spoil it for me and so many others out there.
There are more than just pirates that want PvP and if those changes would be made everyone would eventually quit the game because they fight few minutes and mine for days.
Spawn of the Devil
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Omniwar
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Posted - 2003.11.19 15:10:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Omniwar on 19/11/2003 15:12:43
Quote:
BTW - is that accurate about your insurance Omni? If so bugger going for any more that the basic
I got 108 mills for the Raven and I am 99.9% sure premium costs that but I am not online now so i cant check.
edit, it is better to have premium than basic if you know you will loose the ship before the insurance runs out.
And in my chosen profession I know I can be killed any day, any time.
Spawn of the Devil
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Hackett
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Posted - 2003.11.19 15:19:00 -
[19]
Quote:
edit, it is better to have premium than basic if you know you will loose the ship before the insurance runs out.
And in my chosen profession I know I can be killed any day, any time.
Yeah - I guess for u guys thats right. I was looking at it from my own point of view.
Even still - the premium to payout ratio is worse that my bloody car insurance
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Danton Marcellus
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Posted - 2003.11.19 15:53:00 -
[20]
Afraid has **** all to do with it, get a clue.
Convert Stations
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Hackett
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Posted - 2003.11.19 15:58:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Hackett on 19/11/2003 15:58:56
And you were addressing?
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.11.19 16:28:00 -
[22]
20m insurance on a Tempest returns 83m. Build cost for a Tempest for me runs about 70m. *Gasp* I'm an honest manufacturer and don't use insurance fraud to make isk. But that's not the point.
Outfitted with vanilla modules, which is the best way to fight PvP, I'd lose basically just the insurance premium when all is said and done. 3 weeks is ample time to earn 20m isk at a very relaxed pace for a Tempest.
There is a bite to insurance. Not a huge one like Macumba wants. Nor an insignificant one, like Herabec wants. If insurance could take in account the current average price of minerals to take out fraud the level is just about balanced atm, imo
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Herabec
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Posted - 2003.11.19 17:43:00 -
[23]
Obviously alot of people feel insurance needs work one way or the other.
I'm just saying if insurance replaced your ship rather then gave you money, insurance fraud would no longer be possible.
And if you had access to a replacement ship, more people would be alot more willing to head out of secure space.
As for no longer having a player build that new ship, insurance could "buy" the ship off the market at a reasonable price.
As for not getting a replacement in a corporate war.. dunno, haven't really done the corp war thing yet. But yeah, it would make it feel kinda pointless.. other then you get the satifaction of killing the other corp.
-Herabec
In-Game Forums |
Danton Marcellus
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Posted - 2003.11.19 18:19:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Danton Marcellus on 19/11/2003 18:20:42
What good will come from this to the people building ships?
I was addressing you, going deep into claimed territory being up against 20 corporations mobbed together has nothing to do with fear it has all to do with common sense and pride, I refuse to let those lamers gank me.
 Idea Lab. 
Convert Stations
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Hackett
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Posted - 2003.11.19 20:57:00 -
[25]
Well if u hadn't noticed I was making a 'joke' about the insurance being worse that my car ins.
Perhaps they have run out of sense of humor mods at your sation.
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Qandor
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Posted - 2003.11.19 21:20:00 -
[26]
Eliminate insurance
Eliminate sentry guns
Eliminate Concord
Eliminate the highway system
Turn it all into 0.0 space
Best clone limited to 98% protection. Minimum 2% experience loss on death mandatory.
Kill anyone, anywhere, anytime.
No more carebears - no more wannabe pirates.
Problems solved.
Those who stay will want it that way. The rest can leave. No more arguments then.
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Archemedes
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Posted - 2003.11.19 22:09:00 -
[27]
Hmmm... lots of people saying insurance should be nerfed. Lots of others saying it should pay more. Sounds like it's about right to me... 
Remember: The best sign of a good compromise is that neither side is happy.
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Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2003.11.19 22:11:00 -
[28]
Give one level of insurance - 50% cover for 20% of the cost.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.11.20 00:10:00 -
[29]
Quote:
Give one level of insurance - 50% cover for 20% of the cost.
Same payment/payout mechanics. Highest payout = 100% of the average price for that ship over 1 month's time at the time the policy is given. Data pulled from the markets.
So Platinum insurance would payout 95m on a Tempest if that was the average price from the market over a 30 day time frame.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
dethnel
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Posted - 2003.11.20 04:16:00 -
[30]
Quote:
Highest payout = 100% of the average price for that ship over 1 month's time at the time the policy is given. Data pulled from the markets.
i agree with jash there, since the sales data are already being tracked and stored by the game...
then it occurred to me that this would allow spectacular insurance fraud with the way the market is set up atm- you know how many people are exploiting the market average prices by making phoney buy/sell orders-- example one unit of trit average price is over 700isk in some regions? so some kind of fraud protection would need to be put into the market average pricing. or else a builder could sell a bs to himself (or alt) repeatedly for a billion dollars, get the average market price high enough then start blowing up bs's for 100's million profit.
possible solution: have a human (GM or polaris) just secretly watch the trade channel for 1/2 hour different days and see what prices players are actually trading battleship/cruisers at. frigate prices don't show up in trade-chan but probably frigate insurance can be left as it is now, since insurance discrepencies for frigates are pretty insignificant even for a newish player.
i'd like to add just one more comment: to the people who say any player can make "30mil to pay bs insurance in 3 weeks".
irregardless of how true that statement is, you would be ignoring the fact that this suggests the average player could only engage in "one fight every 3 weeks"
if you fight in pvp a lot, you would need to pay new insurance after each battle that you lost- so if eve is considered a pvp-combat game, we have a problem where it is not financially possible for players to engage in "fair fights" several times a day, let alone ever (an exciting 50/50 chance of losing your ship to another player of equal skill).
pvp in the game seems to consist mainly of one person running away(whoever the odds are against), or one person getting trapped by 100times more firepower before his screen loads up.
if people could effectively fight in frigates - the losses would be no problem for many folks and there would be more pvp combat. if frigates could knock out weapons on larger ships so they stood more of a chance, or be completely invulnerable to large battleship weapons (like fighters are in rl combat vs. large ship weapons) it would go along way. i'm not saying a frigate should be able to take on a bs at all, just that there should be a chance of it to actually survive flying 'near' to a bs without being destroyed. this might even create an interesting situation where some bs weapon slots would be used to mount small weapons to knock out frigates (again what rl battleships did to combat against fighters circa 1940's). of course there's hvy drones to use against frigs, but at least a frig could get close enough to a bs to use it's pea shooter gun to try to knock out a few turrets, or activate some ecm, which is not possible atm unless the bs pilot is afk.
another consideration, players have the most fun using the best equipment they can barely afford, and that is exactly the equipment they cannot afford to use/lose with eve's gamedesign== not very much fun.
in some cases like this, eve is designed for such a hardcore gaming audience that it seems almost like it was designed on purpose to discourage fun.
possible solution: again balance the ship classes better, so that there is a point for players to use ships they can better afford to lose. atm, if you are not fighting in a top of the line ship, you will lose against the same number of folks with better ships. tactics don't amount for as much as they should (unless you count lag as a tactic).
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