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Why no Risk vs Reward for T2 BPO owners?

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spiderbaby Amarr	Posted - 2006.12.08 15:41:00 - [1] Every other aspect of the game is ruled by the risk vs reward paradigm. This is broken if you are a T2 BPO owner, where there are huge rewards for zero risk, dished out randomly. Why is there no risk for these people? Why doesn't CCP do something about this massive source of dissatisfaction for the vast majority of the playerbase?
Admai Sket	Posted - 2006.12.08 15:44:00 - [2] perhaps the t2 bpos should only be seeded into hangars in POSs, which can be destroyed etc. perhaps a large fleet could attack the pos, steal the bpo, and run off - THAT would be a risk. But then once the BPO had been stolen and taken to Jita, there's nothing that can be done rofl --------- NEED A SIG PLEASE.
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.12.08 15:46:00 - [3] Edited by: Dark Shikari on 08/12/2006 15:49:49 Risk: the 20 billion you paid on auction on the forums for the BPO Reward: the profit you get if the sell price of the item doesn't collapse Yes, this falters if you were lucky and won it. But its a lottery, and that's the whole point. At least its better than auctioning the BPOs so only the rich have a chance at one. -[23] Member- Awesome new space games site, from the editor of E-ON!
Xrak Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.12.08 15:51:00 - [4] Should never have been given out as bpos to start with, only BPCs.
Tachy	Posted - 2006.12.08 15:52:00 - [5] The lottery seems to be the only way to give all pilots a more or less equal chance to lay his or her hands on one of them. The system was never intended to spread the ability to produce T2 items equally. You can see this easily when you check the copy time. Priming the first agent isn't much work. If you want to have the full set of agents with maximal possible RP/day, you have to dish out isk for skills and to spend quite some time training the skills. --==*-- The cause for this is not yet known, but we do have a possible fix in testing. by Sharkbait \| 2006.09.20
Admai Sket	Posted - 2006.12.08 15:54:00 - [6] Originally by: Xrak Should never have been given out as bpos to start with, only BPCs. So when exactly does who get which BPOs ever? --------- NEED A SIG PLEASE.
ScreamingLord Sutch	Posted - 2006.12.08 15:57:00 - [7] I think CCP know they made a mistake with the t2 bpo lottery. They are in the starting process of undoing it with invention. It is a source of dissatisfaction, however, the noise made about it far exceeds the size of the "problem". There's probably less than 20 bpo's that fall into the "broken" category. This includes hac's cloaks and 425 / 1400 guns. Think about it, possibly 100-200 people in EvE have been given free isk printers. this is out of a subscriber base of over 100k. Thats 1 in 500 people.
Ruffio Sepico Minmatar Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering	Posted - 2006.12.08 15:57:00 - [8] Originally by: Xrak Should never have been given out as bpos to start with, only BPCs. Doubt that would encouraged people to train the required skills to build, and the ones that did would still end up with building most of it. Wouldnt change much at all. Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk
Brutor Shaun Minmatar Freelancers UK Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.08 16:03:00 - [9] Originally by: Xrak Should never have been given out as bpos to start with, only BPCs. I've said this all along. R&D agents should give out limited run (100?), RESEARCHABLE, BPCs. To keep the market lively there should still be a limited number, but as with the BPOs, if one is destroyed, or in this case used up, a new one should be released. As with other rewards they should cost a set amount of RP. If you ain't got enough RP then you don't get offered the BPC in the first place. Any flaws with this idea?
Helison Gallente Times of Ancar THE R0NIN	Posted - 2006.12.08 16:05:00 - [10] Originally by: Ruffio Sepico Originally by: Xrak Should never have been given out as bpos to start with, only BPCs. Doubt that would encouraged people to train the required skills to build, and the ones that did would still end up with building most of it. Wouldnt change much at all. Hmm, I¦m pretty sure that much more ppl could produce T2 stuff, if they would have BPCs. I could produce probably 90% of all T2 stuff, but I normally only build ammunition, because these are our only BPOs (beside medium energy neutralizer II). Sometimes I¦m able to get a few T2 frig or module BPCs, but they were quite seldom in escrows at good prices.
Lunadi Minmatar Solar Trade	Posted - 2006.12.08 16:14:00 - [11] You look at the t2 bpo issue analyzing it's gameplay 'fairness', why this is maybe not the most important aspect. Try to ask yourself what are the economical (and gameplay) implication of the current system and try to find a reason behind it... Look at T2 BPO as a very rare resource. These resources can be acumulated by the 'big players' (possibly alliances), making them even stronger on the long run. Is that bad? Would you prefer that everyone were 'average'? Sure it's not fair, I would also love to get my part of the best cake, but that makes this universe more realistic (even if the way there were distributed is far from being perfect) -------- hate my spelling? go play SCRABBLE!
Xrak Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.12.08 16:21:00 - [12] Originally by: Ruffio Sepico Originally by: Xrak Should never have been given out as bpos to start with, only BPCs. Doubt that would encouraged people to train the required skills to build, and the ones that did would still end up with building most of it. Wouldnt change much at all. It would create a new market for the BPCS.
Serapis Aote TBC	Posted - 2006.12.08 16:33:00 - [13] Originally by: Lunadi You look at the t2 bpo issue analyzing it's gameplay 'fairness', why this is maybe not the most important aspect. Try to ask yourself what are the economical (and gameplay) implication of the current system and try to find a reason behind it... Look at T2 BPO as a very rare resource. These resources can be acumulated by the 'big players' (possibly alliances), making them even stronger on the long run. Is that bad? Would you prefer that everyone were 'average'? Sure it's not fair, I would also love to get my part of the best cake, but that makes this universe more realistic (even if the way there were distributed is far from being perfect) Actually you could just turn t2 production into a game of resources. Making the resources the thing that drives the price. It takes more time and effort to produce the recources from POS and stuff, but because of the limited t2 market there isnt much demand for them. The main problem i see with it, is both that and the fact that it limits the number of players that can take part in high end manufacturing, Invention is suppose to fix that by giving an alternative path for those who would like to get into manufacturing high end goods, we'll see if it works.
Heritor Caldari The Wailing Doom	Posted - 2006.12.08 16:38:00 - [14] Why could not all of the Tech2 BPO's have been gained through invention. That would have been more even handed. Always where your seatbelt, its far harder for the aliens to abduct you!
Lord Goodberry Gallente Madhatters Inc.	Posted - 2006.12.08 18:12:00 - [15] FREE T2 BPO's? Come on, be real. I can't count how many times I've been jumped by PvP'ers when running missions for my research agents in low sec... Hmmm 10 + mil sp invested in Science related/research skills and another 7 mil in requisite skills while others were fleshing out their gunnery/spaceship command skills and making a mountain of money milking missions and having fun PvPing. I'd say my sacrifice deserves a shot at big payout now. I got about 10 other reasons to prove RP were earned, not free... but don't wish to rant. Regardless, hopefully after the T2 BPO reseed CCP fixes Invention a bit so those with accumulated rp can use them.
Noriath	Posted - 2006.12.08 18:21:00 - [16] There is no risk in Tech 2 producing, it's hardly even possible to figure out who exactly owns tech 2 blueprints, and even if you did, there wouldn't be any way to take them away...
Roshan longshot Gallente Ordos Humanitas	Posted - 2006.12.08 18:22:00 - [17] Just wow....Sorry in all reality, if you want a TECH II BPO then you should war dec the owners of them. When they tire of the war that is the price you want. One each BPO or the killing continues. Untill then think Boeing, Lockheed, and Aerobus. And then think of all the little companies struggling to keep afloat. Free-form Professions, ensure no limetations on professions. Be a trader, fighter, industialist, researcher, hunter *pirate* or mixture of them all. [i]As read from the original box.
Roshan longshot Gallente Ordos Humanitas	Posted - 2006.12.08 18:24:00 - [18] Originally by: spiderbaby Every other aspect of the game is ruled by the risk vs reward paradigm. This is broken if you are a T2 BPO owner, where there are huge rewards for zero risk, dished out randomly. Why is there no risk for these people? Why doesn't CCP do something about this massive source of dissatisfaction for the vast majority of the playerbase? 1. Minerals need mining 2. Moon minerals need mining 3. Components need produceing 4. Tech II needs to be sold. Sorry I see lots of risk there, can anyone else see any risk? Free-form Professions, ensure no limetations on professions. Be a trader, fighter, industialist, researcher, hunter *pirate* or mixture of them all. [i]As read from the original box.
Danton Marcellus Nebula Rasa Holdings	Posted - 2006.12.08 18:40:00 - [19] Some of the risk would be getting war declared on by have-nots or people wanting to extend their influence over the trade. Sure you can always move them via alts but then again what of the powertrip possession gives? Nebula Rasa Holdings
Jowen Datloran Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2006.12.08 18:43:00 - [20] Edited by: Jowen Datloran on 08/12/2006 18:44:59 Once again somebody goes yapping off again about "risk vs. reward" while conveniently forgetting the other two major parameters of the equation: time and effort. Especially in the case of tech 2 production risk might be low, but the effort you have to make to gather the components and the time it takes to construct the items are certainly big. IF I have to derive it further let me know. EDIT: I mean, if I get more profit from my time mining Veldspar than I do for the time it takes me to gather and construct and sell (things do not sell instantly you know) tech 2 items, what do you think I would do? ---------------- Mr. Science & Trade Institute
Ghoest	Posted - 2006.12.08 18:47:00 - [21] Originally by: Jowen Datloran Once again somebody goes yapping off again about "risk vs. reward" while conveniently forgetting the other two major parameters of the equation: time and effort. Especially in the case of tech 2 production risk might be low, but the effort you have to make to gather the components and the time it takes to construct the items are certainly big. IF I have to derive it further let me know. Im not taking sides in the over all argument but this post is just stupid. You can put up buy orders get everything you need then sell many T2 items all from 1 station and make a tidy profit. Sure the demand isnt high on some products. But the good one - the ones that make people complain - easy money. If you want to put the effort into it that you describe thats just more money. Wherever you went - here you are.
DOARota Gallente Drones of Annihilation Alektorophobia	Posted - 2006.12.08 18:49:00 - [22] Limit the ownership of a particular t2 bpo to one per client. That might dent monopolies a little.
Jowen Datloran Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2006.12.08 18:50:00 - [23] Originally by: Ghoest Originally by: Jowen Datloran Once again somebody goes yapping off again about "risk vs. reward" while conveniently forgetting the other two major parameters of the equation: time and effort. Especially in the case of tech 2 production risk might be low, but the effort you have to make to gather the components and the time it takes to construct the items are certainly big. IF I have to derive it further let me know. Im not taking sides in the over all argument but this post is just stupid. You can put up buy orders get everything you need then sell many T2 items all from 1 station and make a tidy profit. Sure the demand isnt high on some products. But the good one - the ones that make people complain - easy money. If you want to put the effort into it that you describe thats just more money. This will indeed lower the time for gathering, but will also reduce your profit margin. You still need to weight that against construction time which you can do little about. And by having a lower profit margin your price might not be very competiable. ---------------- Mr. Science & Trade Institute
Brolly Caldari The Department of Justice	Posted - 2006.12.08 18:55:00 - [24] Risk vs reward is a mantra chanted by the deluded. I could take a faction bs fitted T2 into the most dangerous region of space for ratting, this does not mean I will get billions of isk worth of rat loot, I will probably get podded. If I had ú1 for every intelligent comment posted in general discussion, I'd be hideously in debt
Roshan longshot Gallente Ordos Humanitas	Posted - 2006.12.08 18:58:00 - [25] Originally by: DOARota Limit the ownership of a particular t2 bpo to one per client. That might dent monopolies a little. That would be good, but alot or at least most of the Tech II BPO's are owned by corporations and alliances. Free-form Professions, ensure no limetations on professions. Be a trader, fighter, industialist, researcher, hunter *pirate* or mixture of them all. [i]As read from the original box.
DOARota Gallente Drones of Annihilation Alektorophobia	Posted - 2006.12.08 19:04:00 - [26] Code the game to allow them only one copy. If they aquire another it can be locked from production while the first remains active. This might force them to diversify instead of monopolize. Might also spur competition.
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.12.08 19:07:00 - [27] Originally by: DOARota Code the game to allow them only one copy. If they aquire another it can be locked from production while the first remains active. This might force them to diversify instead of monopolize. Might also spur competition. Actual, single-person BPO monopolies are extremely rare. -[23] Member- Awesome new space games site, from the editor of E-ON!
Haywood Jahblomy	Posted - 2006.12.08 19:15:00 - [28] Originally by: Roshan longshot Just wow....Sorry in all reality, if you want a TECH II BPO then you should war dec the owners of them. [...] just wow.... sorry in all reality, a war with a bunch of guys sitting on a money making machine does _not_ result in _them_ getting tired...
Lincoln Armm	Posted - 2006.12.08 19:16:00 - [29] I could care less about the risk vs reward, my concer is that the BPO's cause major market distortions because rtising demand is meant by inelastic supllies. This means t2 prices skyrocket and many players can't do the things they want (make t2 stuff on one hand and buy and use it on the other). For example, my corp had access to a Ishtar BPO for most of the last few years. We ran it at capacity the entire time. Prices kept rising steadily but what could we do? We sold every one built but hte demand kept rising. The bpos as implemented act as a har limit to T2 preoduction that is both arbitrary and unresponsive tro market forces. THis hurts Eve's economy as a whole, even if it benifits a small handful of BPO holders. By the way, the announcment for the patch on Wed says theat they will be "reseeding t2 BPOs". I wonder what that means exactly?
DefJam101 Gallente Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.08 19:20:00 - [30] Originally by: Dark Shikari Edited by: Dark Shikari on 08/12/2006 15:49:49 Risk: the 20 billion you paid on auction on the forums for the BPO Reward: the profit you get if the sell price of the item doesn't collapse Yes, this falters if you were lucky and won it. But its a lottery, and that's the whole point. At least its better than auctioning the BPOs so only the rich have a chance at one. Lotteries don't work very well in MMOs, methinks... ***

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