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Dylan Finch
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
5
   |
Posted - 2015.08.18 20:41:59 -
[1] - Quote
Hi. Pretty much what the subject line says - I have a shiny new Tristan and I'd like to run level 1 missions in it. I've googled the topic to death but everything seems pretty old. I'm trying to figure out how to fit it with, as a new player, limited is and skills. I would appreciate any suggestions.
Thanks. |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
Snuffed Out
8523
|
Posted - 2015.08.18 21:14:17 -
[2] - Quote
Apologies for the quality of this post. I am on my mobile and working from memory.
(low-slots)
Damage Control
armor repairer
drone damage amplifier
(mid-slots)
1 MN afterburner
cap booster (200 charge)
stasis webifier
(high-slots)
75mm railgun (lead ammo)
75mm railgun (lead ammo)
(empty)
(rigs)
none
(Drones)
5x Hobgoblin
3x Warrior
Tips and tactics;
- use the above fitting as a TEMPLATE. Fiddle with it according to your needs and contraints (see; fittig a ship is both an art and science... there is no "one fit to rule them all" here).
- I am thinking you might have some CPU issues. Be sure to train up the skill Weapon Upgrades and CPU Management as they will open up options for you.
Failing this... ditch one of the guns. They are only supplimental damage anyways. All you need is something to pull NPC aggro.
- drones are your main form of offense. Take good care of them. If one is taking damage, reel it back into your ship.
- range and speed are primarily your "tank." Never stop moving and if something is slowing you down... kill it before anything else.
- right click your drones in their drone bay... you can group them.
- set up hotkeys for your drones. One for "attack" and one for "return to ship."
- you can only launch a maximum of 5 drones (with the skill "Drone" at level 5). Only Carriers can use more... but they have certain rules, restrictions, and specialties that make them unwieldly as a dedicated droneboat.
- 5 light drones will always be more powerful than 2 mediums and 1 light (see; tracking and damage application).
- Tech 2 drones are worth it.
How did you Veterans start?
The Skillpoint System and You
|
Dylan Finch
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
5
|
Posted - 2015.08.18 21:35:48 -
[3] - Quote
Thanks for this. Yes, I will fiddle around with it and see what I can fit with my skills as they are and training into it so to speak. I can only fit 3 drones right now. I have a bunch of Hobgoblin I drones and 1 Warrior. Would you go with the 3 Hobgoblins or 2 Hobgoblins and 1 Warrior? Also, I guess I didn't realize that a stasis webifier would be useful in PvE. When should I look at using it (i.e., in what situations)?
ShahFluffers wrote:Apologies for the quality of this post. I am on my mobile and working from memory.
(low-slots)
Damage Control
armor repairer
drone damage amplifier
(mid-slots)
1 MN afterburner
cap booster (200 charge)
stasis webifier
(high-slots)
75mm railgun (lead ammo)
75mm railgun (lead ammo)
(empty)
(rigs)
none
(Drones)
5x Hobgoblin
3x Warrior
Tips and tactics;
- use the above fitting as a TEMPLATE. Fiddle with it according to your needs and contraints (see; fittig a ship is both an art and science... there is no "one fit to rule them all" here).
- I am thinking you might have some CPU issues. Be sure to train up the skill Weapon Upgrades and CPU Management as they will open up options for you.
Failing this... ditch one of the guns. They are only supplimental damage anyways. All you need is something to pull NPC aggro.
- drones are your main form of offense. Take good care of them. If one is taking damage, reel it back into your ship.
- range and speed are primarily your "tank." Never stop moving and if something is slowing you down... kill it before anything else.
- right click your drones in their drone bay... you can group them.
- set up hotkeys for your drones. One for "attack" and one for "return to ship."
- you can only launch a maximum of 5 drones (with the skill "Drone" at level 5). Only Carriers can use more... but they have certain rules, restrictions, and specialties that make them unwieldly as a dedicated droneboat.
- 5 light drones will always be more powerful than 2 mediums and 1 light (see; tracking and damage application).
- Tech 2 drones are worth it. |
Ralph King-Griffin
Devils Rejects 666
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
11281
|
Posted - 2015.08.18 21:45:25 -
[4] - Quote
Whichever you like, level one missions should be easy for you to chew through in a drone boat even with poor skills.
Web small fast things as you put everything you have on them, pop it, move onto the next , so on and so forth.
When you hit level II's you may want to start matching the drones damage type to the rats resist hole
And get in the habit of checking eve survival for this information, most of us do so beforehand for each mission and it makes life considerably easier.
=]|[=
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ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
705
|
Posted - 2015.08.18 22:03:55 -
[5] - Quote
Ralph and Shah both posted excellent info already. The first two places that I normally send new players for PvE ship fits is first to Eve Uni and second to eve survival, which Ralph already did.
This time around the Eve uni page only has PvP fits which tells me that it must be a good PvP ship. However the info there might still be of use to you as far as understanding how to use the ship. In this case mostly that it works great as a kitting ship.
Just general PvE tips are that faction specific hardeners are usually a must for most PvE fits. The other thing that I don't think was covered yet was depending on your skills you might need to use modules to extend your lock range to stay away from most of the damage.
Doing some research to understand gunnery and learn how damage is applied will help you in both PvE and PvP and also for both damage application and damage mitigation.
My information here is posted more as general guidance that can be used here and in the future since Ralph and Shah covered this specific situation pretty well already. |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
Snuffed Out
8525
|
Posted - 2015.08.19 01:42:42 -
[6] - Quote
Dylan Finch wrote:
I can only fit 3 drones right now. I have a bunch of Hobgoblin I drones and 1 Warrior. Would you go with the 3 Hobgoblins or 2 Hobgoblins and 1 Warrior?
In PvE I have generally stuck with Hobgoblins as they deal Thermal damage... which tends to be either the primary or secondary weakness for NPCs (exceptions: Incursion NPCs, wormhole NPCs (Sleepers), and Drifters... they have omni-resistances).
Also, they deal more raw damage than other drones... which more than compensates when Thermal damage is the secondary weakness.
Warriors deal Explosive damage and are good against Angel NPCs (the ones with the "dark brown" color scheme)... which are quite resistant against Thermal damage.
So basically... stick to "pure" flights of drones. Use only Hobs or only Warriors.
In PvP you still want to use these two types of drones... but for different reasons.
Hobgoblins (and Gallente drones in general) deal higher damage than other drones of the same class... but they are slow. So they are preferred in engagements where relatively close combat is the order of the day.
Warriors are the fastest drones with the best tracking (see: applied damage)... making them very useful against very fast targets (we are talking 2000+ m/sec).
Also bear in mind that damage types is not a big factor as most PvPer tend to omni-tank (like the "special NPCs" I mentioned above).
Dylan Finch wrote:
Also, I guess I didn't realize that a stasis webifier would be useful in PvE. When should I look at using it (i.e., in what situations)?
Use the web when something is too close for comfort and you want to get away from it.
Or when you want the best possible damage application (when an NPC is harder than usual to kill).
How did you Veterans start?
The Skillpoint System and You
|
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
705
|
Posted - 2015.08.19 02:26:22 -
[7] - Quote
Dylan Finch wrote: Also, I guess I didn't realize that a stasis webifier would be useful in PvE. When should I look at using it (i.e., in what situations)?
Flash based gunnery tutorial. Basic but informative and easy to understand.
Eve Uni gunnery guide. Keep in mind that this is only one page about gunnery on the Eve Uni Wiki. They have many sections on just gunnery and damage application. I know that they had on page just on wrecking blows and how they happen. Wrecking blows by the way are triple damage.
A brief summary of some of the things that effect damage application with turrets are:
-signature radius of the ship that you are shooting at
-signature resolution of your turrets
-tracking speed of your turrets
-transversal velocity of your target
So anything that:
-Increases the sig radius of the ship that you are shooting at like a target painter of him turning on a MWD etc... improves your chances of hitting him and increase the amount of damage that your hits hit for.
-Increases the tracking speed of your turrets will help you hit your target for more and increase you chances of hitting.
-Reduces the transversal velocity of your target ( like a web, or kitting, etc..) will increase your chance to hit and damage amount for your hits.
This ignores range and how it affects damage and tracking. Also there is little that your opponent can do to reduce his signature radius and as far as I know nothing that you can do to reduce your turret's signature resolution short of using different turrets.
Please don't feel overwhelmed. I know it seems like a lot to begin with. However if you just take in small amounts of info and then play around with it, then absorb more info then play around with that newer info etc... etc... then it will eventually seem like no big deal. |
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
1436
|
Posted - 2015.08.19 05:42:07 -
[8] - Quote
I do like the first setup posted, but there is also the option to go with a shield kite setup. this fits with pretty much no skills, and with better skills you can upgrade to 125mm railguns. The main difference is you rely on your speed and shield buffer to outlast enemies. That said one of the main benefits to flying a frigate is small size and speed, so that is valuable for both setups. Plus shields naturally recharge so you can take some damage and not worry too much. Also you can fit the shield resistance amp to suit the enemy you are fighting.
[Tristan, shield kite]
F85 Peripheral Damage System I
Drone Damage Amplifier I
Drone Damage Amplifier I
Medium F-S9 Regolith Compact Shield Extender
1MN Y-S8 Compact Afterburner
Upgraded EM Ward Amplifier I
75mm Prototype Gauss Gun, Antimatter Charge S
75mm Prototype Gauss Gun, Antimatter Charge S
[empty high slot]
Small Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I
Small Anti-Kinetic Screen Reinforcer I
Small Ancillary Current Router I
Hobgoblin I x5
Hobgoblin I x3
@ChainsawPlankto
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Tsukino Stareine
Sock Robbers Inc.
Low-Class
1318
|
Posted - 2015.08.19 11:50:33 -
[9] - Quote
shah get a freaking tablet or something! |
Dylan Finch
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
5
|
Posted - 2015.08.19 12:21:10 -
[10] - Quote
Thanks so much to everyone for all of the help! The links in particular are super helpful as it is sometimes hard to know what is up to date. |
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ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
Snuffed Out
8525
|
Posted - 2015.08.19 14:10:04 -
[11] - Quote
Tsukino Stareine wrote:shah get a freaking tablet or something!
It is on its way!
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/neptune-suite-one-hub-infinite-possibilities#/
I can suffer until then!!
How did you Veterans start?
The Skillpoint System and You
|
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
450
|
Posted - 2015.08.19 14:44:04 -
[12] - Quote
An optional fit.
[Tristan, Mission]
2x Light Neutron Blaster II (Antimatter Charge S)
2x Cap Recharger II
1MN Afterburner II
Small Armor Repairer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Small Nanobot Accelerator II
Small Auxiliary Nano Pump II
Small Auxiliary Nano Pump I
5x Hobgoblin II
Please convert anything to best T1 you do not have skills or ISK for.
Mag stab can go away for drone damage amp if you prefer. Total DPS remains about the same it just shifts more of it to the drones.
This fit leans heavily towards long cap life (with the right skills it is cap stable) and higher tank DPS numbers than others may use, why? After many years of helping new players I have found that cap and tank are more important to new players than any other factor. As their skills and comfort level increase then they can alter the fits to better suit their play style. Essentially it is stupid over tank and cap to power it to keep them comfortable while they learn.
Thoughts on the fits posted by others.
I dislike stasis webs for a mission ship, they really are not needed especially for a drones ship since even T1 hobs are more than fast enough to catch up and keep up. The only ships I have found that stasis webs are really helpful in are the larger (cruiser and up) turret platforms.
Because cost and additional complexity to pilot I tend to stay away from cap boosters for new players preferring cap rechargers and cap rigs in their place.
So as to better educate the OP ShahFluffers please explain why you choose not to use rigs? Essentially you are leaving a lot of cap, or tank, or even drones / guns damage on the table by not having them.
Chainsaw Plankton same for you please explain why you chose shield over armor tanking?
Especially why you choose to use rigs to harden against incoming damage when that means they are not changeable from mission to mission.
Shah and Chainsaw yes I do know why I might use those same options, I think it best if you explain your reasons why.
OP if you do not have it this is an excellent site for mission runners of all levels.
http://eve-survival.org/wikka.php?wakka=missionreports
|
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
Snuffed Out
8525
|
Posted - 2015.08.19 17:49:23 -
[13] - Quote
Quote:Shah and Chainsaw yes I do know why I might use those same options, I think it best if you explain your reasons why.
Because of cost... ease of understanding... not getting rooted in "bad habits" early on (fitting for cap stability is a "bad habit" IMO)...
Take your pick.
Remember... this is a newbie. 10 million ISK is still a fortune for most players this early on. Recommending 1 million ISK rigs for running missions is a little hard to swallow for players that still consider their first 600k ISK ship to be their pride and joy.
This is especially considering that said frigate is most certainly going to blow up for some reason or another due to inexperience and/or pilot error.
So it is better to keep things cheap and simple.
As for the above shield tanking fit; because the Tristan has a 3/3/3 layout (and is a frigate) there is no hard or fast rule that says it MUST be armor tanked.
With the web; you COULD swap it out for a target painter... but realistically the OP is going to make a mistake and have to pull range just to survive... in which case the AB- web combo will certainly help more than anything else.
As I said in my above post; there is no "one fit to rule them all." I encourage newbies to actively experiment with their fits... with me providing only templates, advice, and tips.
After all... if you learn things the hard way you learn it for life.
How did you Veterans start?
The Skillpoint System and You
|
Tsukino Stareine
Sock Robbers Inc.
Low-Class
1318
|
Posted - 2015.08.19 17:59:23 -
[14] - Quote
I think it's much worse getting people into bad habits with cap stability.
The sooner the player learns to manage their cap instead of gimping their fit with cap stability the better. |
Ralph King-Griffin
Devils Rejects 666
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
11295
|
Posted - 2015.08.19 18:16:23 -
[15] - Quote
Adding emphasis to the point,
fitting for cap stability is a mistake in the vast majority of cases, particularly so in frigates.
=]|[=
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Dylan Finch
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
8
|
Posted - 2015.08.19 22:41:42 -
[16] - Quote
Okay, so I'm trying to make sure I understand the issue on board about cap stability. Please correct me if any of this is wrong. Cap stable is when I can run all of the modules on my ship and my capacitor's recharge rate is such that it will never run dry. So theoretically I can just keep running all of my modules without interruption (I am sure there are modules that will disrupt this, but I don't know which). A trade-off for cap stability is likely a drop in DPS potential (because of limiting both the size of the modules fitted and using valuable slots for capacitor expansion modules). Did I mostly get this so far?
My understanding is that in PvP, where encounters tend to be over fairly quickly, the trade-offs involved in being cap stable are not only not necessary, but also can render your ship ineffective for the situation. I also understand that missions tend to be longish encounters and cap stability might be more desirable. On the one hand, I view missions as a means to learning the basics. So if that means learning how to operate a ship that is not cap stable, that leads to one kind of fitting. On the other hand, it may be the case that PvP is just a different beast from PvE and requires a different fitting (with the understanding that being cap stable is not always desirable). Not sure what the answer is here and would appreciate any feedback. |
Ralph King-Griffin
Devils Rejects 666
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
11298
|
Posted - 2015.08.19 23:04:10 -
[17] - Quote
Dylan Finch wrote:Okay, so I'm trying to make sure I understand the issue on board about cap stability. Please correct me if any of this is wrong. Cap stable is when I can run all of the modules on my ship and my capacitor's recharge rate is such that it will never run dry. So theoretically I can just keep running all of my modules without interruption (I am sure there are modules that will disrupt this, but I don't know which). A trade-off for cap stability is likely a drop in DPS potential (because of limiting both the size of the modules fitted and using valuable slots for capacitor expansion modules). Did I mostly get this so far?
pretty much yeah, your on the right track,
just about everything can suffer in the name of cap stability,
theirs a lot of nuance in fitting ships but its encouraging that you get this much at this point.
Dylan Finch wrote:
My understanding is that in PvP, where encounters tend to be over fairly quickly, the trade-offs involved in being cap stable are not only not necessary, but also can render your ship ineffective for the situation. I also understand that missions tend to be longish encounters and cap stability might be more desirable. On the one hand, I view missions as a means to learning the basics. So if that means learning how to operate a ship that is not cap stable, that leads to one kind of fitting. On the other hand, it may be the case that PvP is just a different beast from PvE and requires a different fitting (with the understanding that being cap stable is not always desirable). Not sure what the answer is here and would appreciate any feedback.
your understanding is fairly good here
pvp tends to be long periods of waiting, stalking punctuated by abrupt bursts of terror,violence and glory,
whereas pve for the most part is a slow ,steady burn and even here the cap stable thingy applys
in that when you get agro from a group of rats you usually need only face tank the initial couple of moments as when you clear them,
their overall dps is diminished.
dead npcs do 0% dps so every one killed is less you need to tank
=]|[=
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
1438
|
Posted - 2015.08.20 02:46:57 -
[18] - Quote
I like to pve like I pvp as much as possible. I typically fit MWDs, Cap injectors, omni-tank, and that sort of thing. In pve I can usually skimp on the tank and focus more on my damage, and I don't have to fit a point or ewar so I can fit more damage application mods. These days I spend more time in warp to/from mission than I do in mission (maybe slight, but only a slight, exaggeration). That said I have the SP I can get away with it. For lower skilled players doing things like fitting a mission specific tank is an easy way to get into more content. I also like cap injecting because it lets you fit a much bigger tank than you could otherwise. generally you could fit that tank and be cap stable, but then you would be giving up most other slots that can instead go to damage or application.
in the case of the tristan it is a 3/3/3 frig which gives it a lot of fitting flexibility. The shield tank was mostly to put on the second dps mod. Depending on skills you could probably drop the damage control and fit a third drone damage amp (DDA). As far as the resists go for a level 1 it probably doesn't matter too much. extender rigs would probably be better. Purger rigs are arguable, but imo you shouldn't be taking too much sustained damage making the difference not too much, and the extra buffer preferable to a tiny bump in shield recharge. Now if you look at say a drake or rattlesnake with high resists and a bunch of large extenders then the difference between purgers and extenders gets big.
also I don't really like webs on drone ships, in lv1s it probably wont be an issue, but I have had a few issues with webbing a ship and my drones lost damage because they couldn't track the slowed down ship. there are some interesting interactions between drones and moving targets, and one is that a small fast target can be easily tracked by a slower drone as the drone will essentially follow it around and get good hits with low transversal velocity. Where if the target slows down the drone orbits too fast and can't get good hits. Of course some targets are just too fast for the drone to keep up with, this is usually a pvp problem though.
@ChainsawPlankto
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Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
452
|
Posted - 2015.08.20 03:03:06 -
[19] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:Quote:Shah and Chainsaw yes I do know why I might use those same options, I think it best if you explain your reasons why. Because of cost... ease of understanding... not getting rooted in "bad habits" early on (fitting for cap stability is a "bad habit" IMO)... Take your pick. Remember... this is a newbie. 10 million ISK is still a fortune for most players this early on. Recommending 1 million ISK rigs for running missions is a little hard to swallow for players that still consider their first 600k ISK ship to be their pride and joy. This is especially considering that said frigate is most certainly going to blow up for some reason or another due to inexperience and/or pilot error. So it is better to keep things cheap and simple. As for the above shield tanking fit; because the Tristan has a 3/3/3 layout (and is a frigate) there is no hard or fast rule that says it MUST be armor tanked. With the web; you COULD swap it out for a target painter... but realistically the OP is going to make a mistake and have to pull range just to survive... in which case the AB- web combo will certainly help more than anything else. As I said in my above post; there is no "one fit to rule them all." I encourage newbies to actively experiment with their fits... with me providing only templates, advice, and tips. After all... if you learn things the hard way you learn it for life.
Me thinks you missed the part of my post where I told the OP to replace T2 with T1 if they do not have skills or ISK for the T2 stuff. Last time I checked a few weeks ago the T1 small rigs were in the 200,000 to 250,000 ISK range, while that is still a lot of ISK for a new player it is not out of line ISK wise compared to the cost of the ships they would be used on.
A new player losing a ship in a mission is likely to happen but I see no positive side to advising them to go into a mission with a ship fit that only increases the likely hood that they will lose it. If they cannot afford 200,000 ISK rigs it is not very likely they would be able to replace the 600,000 ISK ship you are telling them they should go lose simply so they can learn a lesson. Keeping ships alive and allowing them to build a little bit of a ship replacement budget has always proven the best option in my experiences so we will have to agree to disagree on this and allow those who read the debate to decide.
Since the OP was asking SPECIFICALLY about a level 1 ship I ignored anything that was not related specifically to running missions. For many mission pilots cap stability is THE thing to fit for especially for those who are not in possession of the most stable of internet connections. Like most other aspects of running missions cap stability is a personal choice, some prefer it over all other factors, and there are those that believe that cap stability is a useless goal. As I stated in my first post a solid even stupidly over tanked ship that is cap stable or nearly so is a good way to start, then they can modify from there based on personal preferences and their own experiences.
Answers to the OP.
Cap stability for a mission ship is neither good or bad it is 100% personal choice.
Ralph states above that a dead NPC is one that cannot hurt you and that is 100% true. The question is will that increased dps you gain by reducing your tank and your cap allow you to kill enough that your tank can handle it without having to warp out to repair or allow shields to recharge.
If you have sufficient tank to withstand the dps and you have enough cap to run that tank for whatever time is needed even iof that is a cap stable fit then it simply does not matter how long it takes to kill off all the NPC you simply keep flying around until you do knowing that you do not have to worry about your cap.
So in the end the choice is yours higher tank and the cap to run it with lower dps or higher dps and lower tank. Balanced against your favored play style both can be effective in the early stages of your mission running.
Last note on missions for now. In my circle of EvE friends we like to call a good mission fit functionally stable. Very rarely are these fits truly cap stable, but their combination of tank DPS and the available cap allow you to run a mission and run your tank when needed so you can get through the mission with some extra in reserve for the time you mess up your agro and need it.
Now to the hilarious idea that a cap stable fit will teach you bad habits. For running missions the only bad habits are not keeping an eye on local and your d-scan and how much tank or cap you have or do not have has no affect on this. For everything else you do in a mission it is all personal choice so there is no right or wrong and therefore there are no bad habits to learn or not learn.
Since you specifically asked about missions I do not want to drag this out into the PvP side of the debate. I will simply say that what you will need for a successful life in PvP are radically different than what you will need for PvE.
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
1439
|
Posted - 2015.08.20 05:42:18 -
[20] - Quote
Donnachadh wrote:So in the end the choice is yours higher tank and the cap to run it with lower dps or higher dps and lower tank. Balanced against your favored play style both can be effective in the early stages of your mission running.
enter cap boosters, higher dps and higher tank \o/
@ChainsawPlankto
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