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33,000 and climbing: you've made your point now

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Del369 Caldari Office linebackers Center for Disease Creation	Posted - 2006.12.12 01:39:00 - [31] Originally by: SN3263827 Don't be fooled into thinking Traffic Control is somehow the affliction of solely highly populated systems. I lost a megathron to a gank squad earlier this evening because I was #4 in the queue to jump into an empty 0.0 system for 4 minutes. Its quite frankly ridiculous, and makes playing the game impossible. yea seeing these in 0.0 a lot, to jump from empty systems into empty systems, petition that to hell and back, you shouldnt be attackable if your stuck in a jump queue anyway, it's ccp's problem not yours. these are my views, though i'd hope that anyone living in 0.0 would agree, including my corp and alliance Originally by: Wrangler That is an outright lie! We don't want to discriminate anyone! We want both anti-social and social players to grief each other!
Kldraina	Posted - 2006.12.12 02:41:00 - [32] It would be interesting if they stuck a POS style shield around Stargates, so people in jump range could neither attack, nor be attacked. Might get abused though. Personally, I think having only one shard is a good thing. While you might never see most of the people in the game, have no doubt that their presence affects you.
Vrizuh Eve Defence Force Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.12.12 02:42:00 - [33] I think sharding eve would be like changing WoW so that when you die you drop all your armor and lose a bit of xp. It simply is not how the game was envisioned or designed. Look at the largest alliances in EvE today. There aren't a lot of them. Imagine splitting the playerbase down the middle, and also allowing a safehole for the miserable players to go jump into everytime things get rough. Eve politics would be impoverished, malnourished. Hell, the server I play on in WoW has/had basically 1 major guild per side for the first 2 years. I needed more isk, so I took a risk. I mined some ore then fled once more. I'll return to the core to escape the war!
Desiderious Gallente Catalyst Reaction Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.12 02:49:00 - [34] Ok, eve is going to keep growing. Great. But eventually they will run out of space. Its a sad fact. I doubt that technology will allow CCP to have as many gamers on one server as they want forever...SO whats gonna happen? I dont know. Here is my suggestion however. Perhaps the Eve Gate finally re-opens? Not only are there lore reasons for it but its a liable way to divide Eve into another 'server'. However you can also add inter-'server' chat and market skills which could reach through the gate to make the two feel more connected. Its just an idea, im sure the EVe team already has a use for the thing ----------------------------- Oink ^OO^
Glengrant Minmatar TOHA Heavy Industries	Posted - 2006.12.12 02:59:00 - [35] Originally by: Vetur Originally by: Merchantigus Well, firstly, I don't herald the doom of EVE intentionally, because I love EVE. I even like the one-server model - my initial question stemmed from the fact that (maybe due to my inadequate understanding of the way the game's hardware works) I see a lot of apparently population-related problems, And you assume it is a universal. But it is not. I play a lot - I have very rarely any noticable lag. Certainly not enough to bother me. And never even close to the level where I would welcome a shard (China doesn't count - and even that bothers me a bit). The one world aspect of Eve with it's effect on rep and history has great appeal to me and many others. I'd probably cancel over this. Also - I'm sure CCP is working on load balancing optimizations to get more of the existing hardware into better use. Quote: and an apparently obvious solution that CCP don't seem to want to take. Good! Very good. Because they are not alone. Many don't want them to take that obvious but lame non-solution. A solution that breaks the game is not a solution, regardless how obvious. It would solve one problem and create another. And you would still get lag. The shards wouldn't get each a copy of Tranquility cluster - they would have much less players - but also less hardware. You'ld still get lag in some systems/constellations. Also it's a myth that we now have lag as in we didn't have much in the past. Eve always had occasional lag. It's just hard to predict where and what people will do and where and therefore to have the hardware where it's needed. People have complained about lag 3 years ago. And the level of complaining hasn't changed much - thus I conclude overall lag is actually similar - only now we have several times the population and much bigger fleet battles. The stress that is now caused by battles between a few hudred ships - took only a couple dozen ships years back. Worts lag I ever had was in a battle with less about 20 ships 2 years ago or so (CFS vs Mo0). Quote: So how exactly does moving out of Jita solve the problem for me? For that matter, how does it solve it for people whose corp offices or favoured agents are in that system? You don't have to have an office there. It doesn't have to be your fav agent. Some choices come with a price. Also I assure you that I fly around a lot and I was in about 4 short queues (longest was 7 - once - cost me 15 seconds or so) - I rarely experience lag. I'm not saying it doesn't exist and that it is not much worse for others - I'm sure a battle with hundreds of ships in a random 0.0 system is quite a strain on the surprised local node. But perhaps part of the problem is not TQ but your client or connection? (not queues obviously :-) - but then as I said - I rarely see queues).
Xavier Raines	Posted - 2006.12.12 03:12:00 - [36] Originally by: Merchantigus Edited by: Merchantigus on 11/12/2006 22:46:37 Originally by: Vetur stuff tangible - from continuing to insist on remaining on a single server? Dooms day nub post #4326. keep it up and someday there will be more of these than s***rdly pod kills The problem right now is jita and the people to daft to just move that would rather sit here and start "eve is doomed!11" or "i logged in jita and there is a que?!1!1" post instead of moving a few systems over. before i totally left that area i was a grand total of 5 jumps from jita and there were no login ques or lag. the only time i get a gate que was the gateway system between regions. since then i've not had anything. no lag. no ques. MOVE THE ** OUT OF JITA if you don't like the problems you are causing. I agree. Once I saw the word "Jita" in his original post, I realized this was just another thinnly veiled lag/que/overpopulated Jita whine post and just skipped most of it.
Xavier Raines	Posted - 2006.12.12 03:17:00 - [37] Edited by: Xavier Raines on 12/12/2006 03:20:38 Originally by: Desiderious Ok, eve is going to keep growing. Great. But eventually they will run out of space. Its a sad fact. I doubt that technology will allow CCP to have as many gamers on one server as they want forever...SO whats gonna happen? I dont know. Here is my suggestion however. Perhaps the Eve Gate finally re-opens? Not only are there lore reasons for it but its a liable way to divide Eve into another 'server'. However you can also add inter-'server' chat and market skills which could reach through the gate to make the two feel more connected. Its just an idea, im sure the EVe team already has a use for the thing If CCP would have followed through with the mission runner/probing changes they put in with Revs instead of caving in to the crying babies on Wednesday, this game might not have some of these population issues as most of the Carebear lifers would have gone back to WoW with a Kleenex in their hand on the way out the door.
JForce N.W.A	Posted - 2006.12.12 03:55:00 - [38] If you created a whole new cluster. And filled it with new, empty space. And the only link with the current cluster was 3 different systems, which were in hi-sec, and couldn't be camped, then you could move between them with long-load times while you switched clusters. The point is that there are ways of doing it. However my main thought, as someone who loves the 1 universe aspect, is this: I wouldn't want it until EVERYTHING ELSE TO FIX THE PROBLEMS HAD BEEN DONE. But the 1 thing I've never seen is where the devs think we can get to. Do they even think it's possible to have a lag-free game? With no jump queues, no login queues? Or are they just trying to get it to be as good as it can be, even if that isn't acceptable for combat for instance? Minmatar: Train two "primary" systems, taking twice the time, for 1/2 the benefit. It's a thing of beauty.
CRUSH BOSS Caldari BOSS PRODUCTIONS	Posted - 2006.12.12 04:11:00 - [39] well i think its fair to say once the population of eve grows so will the server farms, if there is one thing CCP know how to do and thats run a game, This game roX and thats it. We fight for the ONE - We die for the ONE
Miss Overlord Gallente Ferrum Pugnus New Eve Order	Posted - 2006.12.12 04:14:00 - [40] points whiners to game development forum also points em to log into SISI and also to features and ideas forum These posts represent my personal views and not those of my corp or alliance. These do not reflect offical alliance or corp views This is a disclaimer
sonofollo Caldari 5th Front enterprises New Eve Order	Posted - 2006.12.12 04:16:00 - [41] Originally by: CRUSH BOSS well i think its fair to say once the population of eve grows so will the server farms, if there is one thing CCP know how to do and thats run a game, This game roX and thats it. that said its scaleable which means more players more money more solar systems potentiall jove space is next and maybe more low sec Im a happy little camper now - CCP 4tw.
hangovur Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.12.12 05:58:00 - [42] the day eve shards is the day i cancel my accounts.
Megadon Caldari Deathshead Inc.	Posted - 2006.12.12 06:04:00 - [43] Another universe, shard whatever is inevitable. If Eve keeps growing it will simply surpass the ability of the hardware available today to support that many players in one universe. If it is handled properly, it will have zero impact on eve, other than the fact that more people will be able to play it lag free which is progress, not a step backwards. At any rate, it's going to happen sooner or later at this rate of growth.
Paladineguru Gallente DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.12 07:11:00 - [44] Originally by: Insidi Us The thing I love about a single server is player accountability. Last thing we need is some server A idiot coming to server B and leaving his or her reputation at the door. for ten bux you can get that on tq now, also with an alt or purchased character , this arguement is invalid
Aphotic Raven Gallente WMD Special Forces Dark Forces Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.12 07:57:00 - [45] Originally by: w0rmy Originally by: Bigoleed A second server would probably break EVE as we know it. I'm not sure if this is the sole reason they aren't doing it It wouldnt break EVE Eve china anyone? We dont need china flooding our server... The load would kill TQ... that and... well... Quote: Melicien Tetro: I tried to fight a shark with a pistol underwater once, and I'll be **ed if he didn't laugh at me and eat me. Sharks need a ***** nerf. True story
Bambi	Posted - 2006.12.12 08:01:00 - [46] NEVER!!! EVE would not be EVE with out a single universe.... That would be one thing that would make me hand in my pilots license after almost 4 years [sig banned as it was just too damn good] Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit; Wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad. EVE-Log
Rey Xavier Gallente Bluestar Enterprises	Posted - 2006.12.12 08:16:00 - [47] Edited by: Rey Xavier on 12/12/2006 08:23:05 Hm, I wonder what's technically possible. If the infrastructure of EVE can't support more then 50000 players in the current form maybe there could be a kind of "superstructure", a kind of linked shards, where each shard is connected to the other, but like traveling from one Galaxy(arm) to the other it would not be without restrictions (kind of jump queue or something to balance shard load and /or working like JC). Maybe there is also the option to have support systems to improve performance in shards under heavy load because of massive engagements. Even though no perfect solution it could create the 50000 player chunks technically possible while still having a connected EVE-world. Such a structure could be implemented rp/gameplay wise with a new opening wormhole leading to unexplored space or something... I am no network/server specialist so forgive me throwing around generalisations without the neccessary technical background, just thought it might be an interesting idea... =============================== Ihr pers÷nliches Kreditinstitut
Rey Xavier Gallente Bluestar Enterprises	Posted - 2006.12.12 08:19:00 - [48] Oh yeah, a cool story could be that the wormhole reopens and the EVE citizens would be eager to discover their homeworld, but much has changed and dangers await... =============================== Ihr pers÷nliches Kreditinstitut
Silver Night Caldari Intergalactic Combined Technologies THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2006.12.12 08:32:00 - [49] Edited by: Silver Night on 12/12/2006 08:41:13 It's looking like maybe most people don't understand how Eve works, or its server. The game is already run on a buncha different servers, all linked together. All sharding would mean is that they would no longer be linked. Irrelevant. You would still ahve the same number of people ont eh same number of machines, they would jsut be seperated. Minus the people, including myself, who quit because of the change. Why is sharding bad you ask? Because right now, your achievements impact everyone in the game. You can corner the market on soem item or mineral for a whoel region, and knwo what you did has an effect on everyone in the game, as it ripples through a huge complex global market from region to region. Sharding makes what you do irrelevant for at least ahld the player base. It destroys the community that amkes this game better than any other. Incidentally, if the game were sharded, you would ahve the same numebr of systems in each shard, but running on half the hardware. What fun. I'm sure someone more technically versed (DS?) will come along and explain those bits better, but its a bad idea from a purely non-technical, ruin things standpoint. Things don't matter even a tiny fraction as much on a sharded game. Look at the GHSC heist, or the GNW (For those around back then), and tell me if anyone would really care if they had just happened on 'some server'. Better: Name one WOW player who is in any way famous through the entire player base of the game. Where even 50% of people recognize his/her name. Leeroy, being famous more for being a dumbass than actual gameplay, doesn't count. Now, when I say Istvaan, Dark Shikari, CYVOK, or Sir Molle, who knows who I'm talking about? Edit: What would help more than sharding is some sorta dynamic load balancing doohicky. It'd take someone who knows more to tell how that would work, but basically more of the problem is that its jsut a part of the hardware that is put under the huge load of a particular fleet battle or Jita. While there are something in teh hundreds of servers that the game runs on, only one? Or is it a few of them now? Can be tasked to a single high load system, while others run at only a tiny part of thier capacity. -------------- Director. GLS Mr. State Caldari Patriot. Murderer of (his own) Frigates.
Superbus Maximus Gallente Sniggerdly	Posted - 2006.12.12 08:34:00 - [50] I got a simple fix allow snigg to attack in jita and we'll destroy the market in a day, thus allowing them to free up all those nodes they got just for that system :) Ha you think thats big wait till you see the next
Rey Xavier Gallente Bluestar Enterprises	Posted - 2006.12.12 08:44:00 - [51] Ah, maybe I did not describe my suggestion not detailed enough. It would also be interesting to know what the critical problems are - if there are any. If they could simply add more clusters (if subscriber numbers raise higher) there's probably no problem. But I wonder what happens if player number would be 4x the number of today and if two huge alliances would wage war or if an event takes place - wouldn't they completely lag out the cluster the system is in "physically"? If player numbers over 50000 are technically not possible without a kind of "crowd"-control maybe a system of linked shards could implement that crowd control until a higher playerbase on one shard is technologically doable. =============================== Ihr pers÷nliches Kreditinstitut
Silver Night Caldari Intergalactic Combined Technologies THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2006.12.12 08:48:00 - [52] The system you describe is basically how it is now. When you jump between systems, you are generally switching nodes, which as i understand it is a group of machines that run one or more systems. The trouble is that only one node can run one system. So, like, Jite is only running on one Node, and the site of whatever fleet battle, also jsut one node. This is why I mention the ability to have more nodes supporting as being helpful. I can only assume that it is difficult technically soemhow, or they would ahve made it possible by now. -------------- Director. GLS Mr. State Caldari Patriot. Murderer of (his own) Frigates.
Sokratesz Guardians of Hell's Gate Tactical Narcotics Team	Posted - 2006.12.12 08:53:00 - [53] Second eve server? i can imagine alot of long timers quitting when they would introduce it instead, get out of empire. living in 0.0 = no queues no lag no nothing And to the OP, yes, i believe it would be a good idea to invest in the infrastructure before allowing loads more players on the server. Basilisk Fitting Link
Rey Xavier Gallente Bluestar Enterprises	Posted - 2006.12.12 09:10:00 - [54] Originally by: Silver Night The system you describe is basically how it is now. When you jump between systems, you are generally switching nodes, which as i understand it is a group of machines that run one or more systems. The trouble is that only one node can run one system. So, like, Jite is only running on one Node, and the site of whatever fleet battle, also jsut one node. This is why I mention the ability to have more nodes supporting as being helpful. I can only assume that it is difficult technically soemhow, or they would ahve made it possible by now. Hm, so I guess JITA is already running on a single physical (and the most performant/new) server? As long as physical server and game system are linked there is probably no way to have a lagfree loadbalancing. But question is if seperation (maybe in an abstract way like BOINC works, having support through stand-by systems) is possible. If yes I guess the problem is rather that the game is based on the old architecture and adaption would probably need an incredible amount of work. Would be interesting to hear some details from the developers, about the cause of currently problems and their "vision" about what might be possible in teh future. =============================== Ihr pers÷nliches Kreditinstitut
Berious The Graduates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.12 09:21:00 - [55] Sharding EVE would ruin one of it's unique features - a shared history with everyone playing the game. CCP should spread people out (hey how about a sliding tax rate like office/sci&industry services, move the best agents into unpopulated regions, etc) more aggressively before they even consider sharding.
Erle Koenig	Posted - 2006.12.12 09:29:00 - [56] eve is somewhat of a closed system. out of all the players which join eve, roughly 70% will remain in empire for most their existance here. While the other 30% will spend most their existance in 0.0. this is a simple ODE(ordinary differential equation) involving a rate at which a 'contaminant' is introduced to a 'pool' which has a 'drain'. the problem is that empire space is not expanding in volume. The ratios will never change. The only hope for a stablized system(in the near future) is for the larger alliances to create their own empires to allow those ratios to effectively switch. Ideally, it should be that 70% of eve should be taking part in 0.0 PC empire life while the other 30% live out their lives in NPC faction empire. This cannot happen without converting many of the useless 0.0 systems into better ones. Effectively increasing the resources of said alliance's space. Until this happens, the overall activity of the inhabitants of EvE will oscillate chaotically(like a strange attractor) around an equilibrium point. EvE will stop growing. luckily, things like constellation sovereignty are coming. this will allow for an increased ratio of 0.0 inhabitants. Though without the addition of resources, don't expect much of a change. alliances are closed systems themselves. They too will oscillate, but it depends moreso on how much they can extract from their land. planetary interaction may also be the saving grace of node overloading. This would increase alliance income, and in effect resources. It will also create another 'pool' for which the 'contaminant' can fill. EvE is far from dieing out. We have a good developer looking over us. They are taking the necesary steps to allow a one-shard mmo to live on. Though in terms of decades, expect to see them opening up more "new regions". EvE will always be a closed system in the end.
Rafein Eye of God Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.12.12 09:37:00 - [57] Only way I would support sharding is if it's a one time thing. Create a ne shard, and when players create a new account, they can choose to go on tranq or the new shard. This is a one time choice on account creation, once done, that account is only valid on that shard. And old characters would be unable to leave Tranq, only total noobs with fresh accounts on the new shard
Roy Batty68	Posted - 2006.12.12 09:59:00 - [58] I think it's a little unfair to CCP for players to demand that the game never be sharded. Hypothetical - What if they determine that due to technical limitations, 46327 concurrent logins is the hard cap? Let's say that translates to approx 250k subscribers. Who are you to say that CCP may not have any more EVE customers than this? Practically speaking though, I get the impression that creating another EVE shard would require quite alot of new equipment. At the end of the day it's probably cheaper to keep Lego'ing in more IBM blades to support user growth rather than establishing a whole new sandbox. Originally by: Big Al Well, if there was a law against stupidity, the server would certainly lag less.
Malcanis	Posted - 2006.12.12 10:01:00 - [59] Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus OhOhOh! I have an even better idea! Lets make another server just for the proffesional forum whiners.. theres about 20 of them and with alts about 60.. So take a single blade and build a forum and eve shard and let them move to it so we can finally browse the forums in peace.. (This is My view and IAC be dammed about it.. ) BEST.IDEA.YET!
D'Mur Pilru	Posted - 2006.12.12 10:05:00 - [60] Originally by: Danton Marcellus The one server is what's really keeping me interested, the other games have to catch up, not EVE step down. Yeah, I'm sure WoW will run 6 million accounts on a single shard...good idea, brilliant, Blizzard really should put their backs into that one.

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