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The Capital arms race...it's on

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Angela Toren Amarr Toren Shipyards	Posted - 2006.12.12 10:38:00 - [1] Edited by: Angela Toren on 12/12/2006 10:38:36 Welcome to the Capital Age traveler! May I interest you in this wonderful Phoenix over here? Or perhaps you would like the awsome fighter-spitting Nyx? Ahhhh that one takes your fancy sir? On your left is a shiny new Avatar, guranteed to clear the spaceways at least once per day! Free 6 pack of Pwn LiteÖ with every purchase! ____ So, with the official unvealing of a LV's Titan last week on TQ the emphasis must now be on thier neighbours and generally every other major faction to quickly own one or risk having thier fleets obliterated by these expensive but very powerful behemoths. Owning a titan isn't a ego dripping fashion thing anymore, now its becoming a necessity, especially for any alliance that wants to remain on the big stage and keep thier territory. Even if it's not used for offence - just having a Titan acts as a potent deterance to keep enemy fleets in check. But what of the final outcome? In a year time will alliances field purely titans and capital ships and rely on remote combat and afk ganking to win the day or will we actually see these things on the front lines and in the middle of very messy fights? Perhaps now is the time for more espionage and spies so these ships can be destroyed during construction before it's too late. Or maybe now is the time to utilise the new fleet organisation tools to split a large force up and lessen the impact of the doomsday? Question time: Do you believe there is a massive race for every alliance to own a titan now on TQ? How many Titans do you believe are secretly in production on TQ? If you personally had a titan would you use it offensively or defensively? With the destruction of the first Titan ever yesterday do you think one could ever be destroyed in active combat?
Waagaa Ktlehr Amarr Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.12.12 10:53:00 - [2] Originally by: Angela Toren But what of the final outcome? In a year time will alliances field purely titans and capital ships and rely on remote combat and afk ganking to win the day or will we actually see these things on the front lines and in the middle of very messy fights? Eventually I'm sure as they become more common, capital ships of all sizes will be seen in fleet battles. Three years ago, a Battleship was a rare sight in a fleet fight, now they are very commonplace. The big difference is construction. Capitals are more involved to build, especially Motherships and Titans, so that might become a bit of a limiting factor. But with the Kali HP boost, I'm sure we'll at least see more Carriers and Motherships with fleets instead of sitting afk at a POS to assign fighters. Originally by: Angela Toren Perhaps now is the time for more espionage and spies so these ships can be destroyed during construction before it's too late. Or maybe now is the time to utilise the new fleet organisation tools to split a large force up and lessen the impact of the doomsday? There's already a pretty big anti-capital-shipyard lobby around that tries to keep capital ship production to a minimal amount of uncontrollable factions. Ofcourse some slip through, but that's to be expected, the universe is huge. Originally by: Angela Toren Question time: Do you believe there is a massive race for every alliance to own a titan now on TQ? No, only those that can afford to set aside 200b will build one and then only the ones that have the strong leadership to actually allocate all those resources into one ship. Yes, they are powerful, but if you do not have the other capital ships, plenty of Motherships, Carriers and Dreadnaughts, then it's probably better to invest in the "smaller" capships first. The Titan can be a nice deterrent against medium sized fleets with a low attention span, but an organized foe with decent logistics won't be scared off by just a Titan, you need the fleet to support it too. Originally by: Angela Toren How many Titans do you believe are secretly in production on TQ? I guess about 5. Originally by: Angela Toren If you personally had a titan would you use it offensively or defensively? Probably mostly offensively and as a deterrent, shock weapon, to defend our own space. And of course for freighter ops, they make freighter ops so much easier! :) Originally by: Angela Toren With the destruction of the first Titan ever yesterday do you think one could ever be destroyed in active combat? Oh yes. The thing is, that thing can only fire it's smartbomb once an hour. So if you wait for it to fart, then stick a dictor bubble on it, it won't be able to warp off and won't easily kill the bubble. Then it's just a matter of enough DPS.. :) - - One ship to jam them all, one ship to damp them. One ship to suck them dry and in the dark void gank them.
Anglo Minmatar Astral Mexicans	Posted - 2006.12.12 11:07:00 - [3] mmm offensiv.. more people have titans that u think btw...
Terminus adacai Caldari Mintaka Mining Inc	Posted - 2006.12.12 11:10:00 - [4] Originally by: Anglo mmm offensiv.. more people have titans that u think btw... There would have been reports. People just can't keep their mouth shut. Read the paper and see how many anonymous sources there are.
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.12.12 11:29:00 - [5] I think that with time progressing you will see three developments with regards to Alliance warfare. 1. Dreadnaughts becoming more prevalent due to people getting the skills to use them and their recent buff. Dreadnaughts are becoming viable fleet ships within the next 3-5 months I would predict. 2. This will lead also to POS warfare becoming easier from the 'required assets' point of view. POSses were overpowered a year ago I think, mainly because the skills to deploy one takes less than a week to train, while to destroy them you need a dozen people training 6 months of skills costing a billion isk, and then flying a 2b isk ship into combat. The only impediment to better POS-combat will be lag. If we didn't have lag, I am certain that POS fights would be epic fights instead of the incredible boring laginfested cluster**s they generally are now. 3. Titans will be relegated more and more to a support role for the first reason I stated above (dreads can really hurt a titan), and I think the Tier 3 BS will also make the Titan less of a 'I win' button in fleet combat. Already it is pretty easy to tank a tier 2 battleship to withstand the point where it will survive a titan blast. And for Tier 3 BS that seems to be even easier. Main roles for titans will be IMO - transport (I think that in a pitched battle between alliances, the side that can instantly transport an entire fleet into any system, or even beyond a system, has a huge advantage - Dread protection (clearing the enemy support ships to get dreads out of hairy situations). Scenario: dreads are engaging a POS, enemy fleet + support warp in to attack dreads, when time comes to extract dreads, the titan will fire a doomsday weapon through a cyno directly on top of its dreadfleet, freeing it from any webbers/scramblers/dictors to ensure a safe disengagement. - For fleet battles, due to more BS going to be able to tank it, its not gonna be the 'I win' button. Main problem I see is the immunity for titans and motherships to EWAR and scrambling. Immunity is bull**. Give motherships a sensor strength of 200 and titans 400, but don't make them immune. Give them each a innate warp core stabilizing of 10, but don't make them immune. The reason they won't die will not be because of hitpoints or whatever, it will be the immunity to scrambling. That is a design failure IMO.
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.12.12 11:33:00 - [6] Originally by: Waagaa Ktlehr Oh yes. The thing is, that thing can only fire it's smartbomb once an hour. So if you wait for it to fart, then stick a dictor bubble on it, it won't be able to warp off and won't easily kill the bubble. Then it's just a matter of enough DPS.. :) Not sure, but what happens if the titan has some officer smartbombs fitted? Don't smartbombs still clear dictor probes?
Waagaa Ktlehr Amarr Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.12.12 11:43:00 - [7] Originally by: Malachon Draco Originally by: Waagaa Ktlehr Oh yes. The thing is, that thing can only fire it's smartbomb once an hour. So if you wait for it to fart, then stick a dictor bubble on it, it won't be able to warp off and won't easily kill the bubble. Then it's just a matter of enough DPS.. :) Not sure, but what happens if the titan has some officer smartbombs fitted? Don't smartbombs still clear dictor probes? They do, but as far as I know the max range on officer smarties is 10k. Dictor bubbles work 20k out, so with smart placement of a couple you should be pretty much able to keep a Titan in place for a while. I never said it would be easy. :) - - One ship to jam them all, one ship to damp them. One ship to suck them dry and in the dark void gank them.
Akira Zendragon Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2006.12.12 11:47:00 - [8] hehe... actually, I'm curious about something a bit different... Who is going to pull the first Titan theft Join channel: "Eve University" or read here
C Diaz VIT	Posted - 2006.12.12 11:48:00 - [9] Originally by: Waagaa Ktlehr Three years ago, a Battleship was a rare sight in a fleet fight, now they are very commonplace. Three years and six months ago, yes. Three years ago, no - they were the de facto fleet ship.
CDS Leader Caldari Eve Forum Warriors	Posted - 2006.12.12 11:55:00 - [10] Originally by: Waagaa Ktlehr Originally by: Malachon Draco Originally by: Waagaa Ktlehr Oh yes. The thing is, that thing can only fire it's smartbomb once an hour. So if you wait for it to fart, then stick a dictor bubble on it, it won't be able to warp off and won't easily kill the bubble. Then it's just a matter of enough DPS.. :) Not sure, but what happens if the titan has some officer smartbombs fitted? Don't smartbombs still clear dictor probes? They do, but as far as I know the max range on officer smarties is 10k. Dictor bubbles work 20k out, so with smart placement of a couple you should be pretty much able to keep a Titan in place for a while. I never said it would be easy. :) I guess someone would carry a spare dictor alt to warp in and drop a bubble to cancel them out.
Plutoinum German Cyberdome Corp Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.12.12 11:58:00 - [11] Edited by: Plutoinum on 12/12/2006 12:00:01 D2 has a titan or titans in production, if not already completed by now. I'm sure RA will follow soon. Titans are quite fancy to jump fleets into camped systems and to destroy camps or make those campers run away. Doesn't require the Titan to fire, the potential victims just need to know he is there ready to shoot into a blob. And two titans are better than one ofc. If you do one doomsday blast, then it might be helpfullif, you have still one doomsday shot ready to react to the enemy, instead of not being able to use that weapon for about an hour. You can keep the enemy in fear. I haven't looked at the bonusses so far. But if a titan has a capacitor bonus, I think I've read something like that, then it's automatically also a cap-recharge bonus (= more cap regenerated in the same time) and that can be really helpfull. Heavy boost for dreads. CTD/con-loss vs. log-out. A proposal for a fix.
Waagaa Ktlehr Amarr Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.12.12 12:04:00 - [12] Originally by: CDS Leader Originally by: Waagaa Ktlehr Originally by: Malachon Draco Originally by: Waagaa Ktlehr Oh yes. The thing is, that thing can only fire it's smartbomb once an hour. So if you wait for it to fart, then stick a dictor bubble on it, it won't be able to warp off and won't easily kill the bubble. Then it's just a matter of enough DPS.. :) Not sure, but what happens if the titan has some officer smartbombs fitted? Don't smartbombs still clear dictor probes? They do, but as far as I know the max range on officer smarties is 10k. Dictor bubbles work 20k out, so with smart placement of a couple you should be pretty much able to keep a Titan in place for a while. I never said it would be easy. :) I guess someone would carry a spare dictor alt to warp in and drop a bubble to cancel them out. Which is a bug and should probably get fixed SoonÖ. :) We're talking months, maybe years, I have faith CCP can solve that bug in that time window. - - One ship to jam them all, one ship to damp them. One ship to suck them dry and in the dark void gank them.
Electric Cucumber Amarr coracao ardente Sani Khal'Vecna	Posted - 2006.12.12 12:13:00 - [13] I hope titans won't become the nukes of eve
Evelyn Exe eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.12.12 12:34:00 - [14] Personally I do not see too many being built as you only need so many (say, max 3) before the investment/reward gets too skewed. If you look at the largest alliances, those at the top already have (had?) them or have them in production (taking RA and goons as one for the moment), those just off the top are mostly vassal alliances that I doubt would be allowed to build one by their landlords, and those just below them I do not believe have the numbers to build one and/or the security of space to risk trying to build one as it is 99% likely that someone will let slip what is being done (witness destruction of AAA shipyards for exmaple). MC (because of where they are) are the only smaller group I could see maybe looking at getting one.
Seleene Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.12.12 12:41:00 - [15] Originally by: Evelyn Exe MC (because of where they are) are the only smaller group I could see maybe looking at getting one. One? Four corps...four cards...four outpost types...four racial titans... OMGZ!! A pattern! - Fight the Darkness!
KIAEddZ Caldari KIA Corp	Posted - 2006.12.12 12:45:00 - [16] Over the next couple of months, I have no doubt that people will be surprised by who roles out in a shiny new Titan. Safe and care free freighter moving ftw. KIA EVE Home
Joshua Foiritain Gallente Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.12 12:46:00 - [17] Originally by: Electric Cucumber I hope titans won't become the nukes of eve I think they will. Put a lot of bubbles on a gate, deploy titan nearby, wait for enemies to jump in. If they know the titan is there they prolly wont, as they wouldnt be able to escape its blast. Could lead to quite interesting situations. ----- [Coreli Corporation Mainframe]
Mariko San Saints Surrounded	Posted - 2006.12.12 12:52:00 - [18] Originally by: Joshua Foiritain Originally by: Electric Cucumber I hope titans won't become the nukes of eve I think they will. Put a lot of bubbles on a gate, deploy titan nearby, wait for enemies to jump in. If they know the titan is there they prolly wont, as they wouldnt be able to escape its blast. Could lead to quite interesting situations. Not really, they will just (i) wait for titan pilot to go offline, (ii) bait titan to shoot its load () then jump main force in (iii) jump in and before arriving on the other side hit ctrl+q (would this work?), (iv) jump in seconds before dt and/or (v) jump to their own titan in system and an ultradeep 300+AU SS so no support ships can get there withuot multiple warps giving you time to get your guys setup.
Mirasta Caldari Enigma Enterprises Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.12.12 14:12:00 - [19] The real question is, Who will be the forst person with 6 Miner2s on there titan.... and how much wil cribba pay for the screen shots? Of couse, You are now reading my sig. Goon FC:"its a trap" "that thing is fully operational"
UPS Man Ye Olde Sweet Shoppe	Posted - 2006.12.12 14:18:00 - [20] Originally by: KIAEddZ Safe and care free freighter moving ftw. I've heard from several unconfirmed sources that using a jump bridge with a freighter isn't feasible. Apparently fuel is consumed based on ship mass, and freighters so much fuel to jump it's not worth it.
Aegis Osiris Gallente Demonic Retribution Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.12.12 14:48:00 - [21] Just fyi: Dictor bubbles don't cancel each other out (tested, confirmed). A dictor bubble gets cancelled if its in the same grid as a deployable warp bubble. Theft of a Titan is unlikely imo. Someone would have to train the needed skills, AND get the (likely) 1 person that flys it to let them take it for a test drive (or access the POS where its parked). Not impossible, but not too likely imo. The jump-queue still exists, even when jump bridging through a titan. That will play into any deployment of a fleet, something to keep in mind. ________________________________________________ This thread does not exist
Saladin Minmatar V I R I I Center for Disease Creation	Posted - 2006.12.12 18:33:00 - [22] I get the jump queue when going to a cyno as well. Anyways, back on topic, like Oveur said, Titans are not cost effective and are just a big phallus. I don't think any alliance will get one unless they already field a monstrous capital fleet. Also the structure of most alliances dictate that alliance funds and resources are geared towards community items like POS fuel and insurnace programs. Most alliances would not allocate funds to a ship controlled by one person. Out of the 3 Titan's built, I believed only Enslaver's was self financed (possibly Molle's too, I know he is rich but his personal finances are a mystery to me). ----
Rod Blaine Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.12.12 18:55:00 - [23] Edited by: Rod Blaine on 12/12/2006 19:00:03 nm You're probably righ Saladin, neither BoB's nor ASCN's titan was self-financed. I don't know about LV's. While people could finance one alone, they could never build one alone. And tbh, making 150B isk to buy all teh stuff needed for it is easier then buidling and hauling the compenents and organising the building itself. Old blog
Randay 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.12.12 20:11:00 - [24] I saw a buy order for some 2 billion tritanium earlier... wonder which Titan that person is going to build. I hope its not an Avatar.
Herculite Hunters Agency Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.12.12 20:17:00 - [25] Eve 2012 - Welcome to the EvE online tutorial. You are currently in the basic starship of your race, the Moros. This is a basic ship with limited ability. Should you lose your ship for any reasons, you will be provided with one free of charge in the next station you dock in or your clone activates in.
Saladin Minmatar V I R I I Center for Disease Creation	Posted - 2006.12.12 20:21:00 - [26] Rod of course its more than just having the money, else many more people would be in a mothership than there are now. But money it does take, the cost of components and then you need the alliance to haul it and a system of secrecy to keep it safe. In terms of component costs I would believe that the LV one is self financed. But in reference to what I was saying, its easy to ask people to help haul stuff for you, especially if you provide good incentives. But when it comes to isk, its much harder to convince others that you are dipping into the community cookie jar for the greater good. I think the difficulty associated with the logistics of building is why CCP made them undockable, so you couldn't trade in them the way you do other ships. If you want to buy one you have to trust someone enough to give them the money and pray they eject, or you need alliance backing and plenty of team work. ----
Rod Blaine Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.12.12 20:57:00 - [27] You need the teamwork, it's that simple. Noone is going to build you one for payment on delivery if they're anywhere near smart, and noone is going to pay upfront either for the same reason: shipyards tend to get targeted, and whoever does not have that cash in his wallet when it does is screwed. Tbh, componentwise (ignoring bpo's), a titan isn't very expensive. If there wasn't the logistical effort and large risk involved every tom **** and harry could get one. So altho hauling for like 8 hours straight was probably the most boring thing I've ever done in my life, i'm glad it was needed. Old blog
Quutar Caldari Auraxian Irregulars	Posted - 2006.12.12 21:49:00 - [28] About the interdictor bubble/scrambler stopping a titan... I thought it was immune to all forms of EWar... so as long as the titan has 90% (?) cap left... and a cyno alt in a nearby system it can get away (bumping can stop it from warping locally) Not finding research slots in Empire Space? Try Quutar Research Services.
ishkabibble Black Avatar Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.12.12 22:03:00 - [29] Titan is equivelant to a nuclear bomb After a while only the mighty few in game will own them because those mighty few will not allow anyone else to have one Future will show if im right or wrong, but history always tells the truth. "I have no clue what weapons we will fight the third world war with, but the fourth world war will be fought with sticks and rocks" - Albert Einstien
Boonaki Caldari Suffoco Noctis Atrocitas	Posted - 2006.12.12 22:04:00 - [30] Originally by: Quutar About the interdictor bubble/scrambler stopping a titan... I thought it was immune to all forms of EWar... so as long as the titan has 90% (?) cap left... and a cyno alt in a nearby system it can get away (bumping can stop it from warping locally) 75% cap. Fear the Ibis of doom! 113

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