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What would fix Null?

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James Cannon Fodder Republic University Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2015.08.27 01:20:12 - [1] - Quote I'm sure this has been asked 1000+ times. I'm just curious what people think. It seems the problem in Null is that someone figured out you can win virtually any war in Null if you just build a fleet with enough players in it so the other fleets are always outnumbered a gazillion to one. So lots of players, wanting to be on the winning side, all joined one big massive superfleet. (Or a few big superfleets, but not many). Now the superfleets wander around bored because nobody will fight them, and all the other fleets wander around bored because they cant' find any small scale battles. Everyone is bored. And, it's not like CCP is unaware of this problem or doesn't care. They've been trying very hard to solve it. First they nerfed Jumping, so the fleets couldn't project power as easily. But that doesn't seem to have solved anything. The fleet can still slow boat to its destination. (And when a huge horde moves through null, they will surely face no opposition.) If anything that made it harder for the smaller fleets because they can't use hit and run tactics very well now. Now we've got changes to SOV, and citadels. I hope the citadels help. Maybe Titans will have a harder time conquering Citadel systems? But I'm not holding my breath that this will solve the whole issue. Is there some way to shift the balance of power back to small gangs?
James Cannon Fodder Republic University Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2015.08.27 01:24:49 - [2] - Quote Something I've been thinking about is maybe lowering the "security status" of every large fleet so they have reduced access to high sec. I would think that Concord would feel threatened by them. Since they are basically player controlled versions of Concord. It stands to reason that any sufficiently large player controlled operation would begin to have a big enough impact on NPC politics that it attracts the attention of the major factions, and those factions would either ally with it, or oppose it. Sure Goonswarm is as much a "pirate faction" as say.... Mordu's Legion.
Cristl 249	Posted - 2015.08.27 01:40:12 - [3] - Quote You think reducing access to highsec will fix null? How does that work exactly?
Val'Dore PlanetCorp InterStellar 981	Posted - 2015.08.27 01:41:49 - [4] - Quote Remove the tracking penalty. Star Jump Drive A new way to traverse the galaxy. I invented Tiericide
James Cannon Fodder Republic University Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2015.08.27 01:51:40 - [5] - Quote Cristl wrote: You think reducing access to highsec will fix null? How does that work exactly? The only way to fix null is to weaken the big fleets. Make forming big fleets less of a win strategy. Another possibility, better than lowering their sec status, would be for Concord to not protect them in high sec space. The assumption would be that they are so big they don't need protection?
Celeste Coeval The Gosimer and Scarab 5	Posted - 2015.08.27 02:08:39 - [6] - Quote James Cannon Fodder wrote: Cristl wrote: You think reducing access to highsec will fix null? How does that work exactly? The only way to fix null is to weaken the big fleets. Make forming big fleets less of a win strategy. Another possibility, better than lowering their sec status, would be for Concord to not protect them in high sec space. The assumption would be that they are so big they don't need protection? Something like that. So other players can gank them when they go into high sec, unless they bring alot of friends. Kind of like in Afghanistan in the real world. Small groups of insurgents constantly ambush the forces of the larger military force as they travel through civilian areas. (In the real world, you don't automatically win just because you're part of a big fleet.) If you can figure out how to make any social animal (including humans) not form large groups for protection and defense let me know, and the whole world while you are at it. People bring the blob because they want to win. You can't "fix" human nature with game mechanics.
James Cannon Fodder Republic University Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2015.08.27 02:13:24 - [7] - Quote That would be true if indeed it were human nature. Why are there small gangs in Los Angeles? By your logic, shouldn't everyone be joining one giant super gang?
Mr Epeen It's All About Me 9192	Posted - 2015.08.27 02:22:31 - [8] - Quote James Cannon Fodder wrote: Why are there small gangs in Los Angeles? Your definition of small and mine vary considerably. Most LA gangs number more than the entire CFC each. In the town I grew up in there was a gang of six bikers. That's a small gang. In the big American cities you are looking at gangs with membership in the thousands. Mr Epeen There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
Divine Entervention Legion's Knights Of The Round Intrepid Crossing 599	Posted - 2015.08.27 02:26:27 - [9] - Quote Less posts about Null.
James Cannon Fodder Republic University Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2015.08.27 02:35:28 - [10] - Quote Mr Epeen wrote: James Cannon Fodder wrote: Why are there small gangs in Los Angeles? Your definition of small and mine vary considerably. Most LA gangs number more than the entire CFC each. In the town I grew up in there was a gang of six bikers. That's a small gang. In the big American cities you are looking at gangs with membership in the thousands. Mr Epeen Good point. So a better question is: why hasn't LA been overrun by a version of "Goonswarm" yet? Or am just that out of touch? Maybe it has? But in real life there are things that prevent it usually. If nothing else, when a force starts to dominate it will have schizms and split apart. But even before that point, a gang that begins to become poweful enough to threaten the interests of the major political powers of LA would attract attention from them.
James Cannon Fodder Republic University Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2015.08.27 02:43:58 - [11] - Quote It's also true that sometimes in history "Goonswarm" type effects have happened for real. The Mongolian Horde was basically a goonswarm effect. The steppe lands where Ghengis Khan started out might even be thought of as his version of "null sec", since nobody was really keeping order out there before he came along. So then they rolled through China, Persia, the Russias, and pretty much everywhere. Only sparing Europe because they didn't like fighting in the rain.
mydingaling GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 19	Posted - 2015.08.27 02:52:34 - [12] - Quote Null is about big groups. Turning null into some faction warfare style little group thing is what has **** null. In amongst the big groups and major wars you have little groups and skirmishes. This however changed with bubble immune ships and the rise of the uncatchable kiters. The problem with null was stagnation. Lets be honest, the great wars fought from red moon rising through to dominion was the golden years of eve. I'm 42 and have gamed since the first computer games were invented. Eve online during that period was the greatest gaming i've ever been a part of and will likely never see again. The reason why most of us are complaining about the state of null is we can see the direction null is going and there will never be another time like that. I truly feel sorry for all you newbies that missed it. There are a whole bunch of reasons for the stagnation. The biggest single reason is you no longer have the likes of Sir Mole to drive conflict. COAD really was a great conflict driver and the changes made there I think was the start of the end. Nowadays the passionate 'grrr kill goons' feeds recruits into the likes of MOA who are invulnerable as far as sov goes and can get their sweet revenge flying fast uncatachable ships around CFC space. You need the likes of MOA to instead be part of the bigger groups, tie the passion in with groups that can actually fight a proper sov war. If you look at the groups that if combined could bring that kind of fight, BL, PL, MOA all live in NPC protected stations. They are not true sov holders they have nothing to risk, nothing to fight for, no chance to rally up everyone to save their from burning to the ground. You need the biggest isk rewards to be in null. You need the associated risk of losing your stuff as the balance for the reward. You shouldn't be able to just hide out conflict in a npc station. You shouldn't be able to make better money from other areas of eve. You need more varied PVE in null not just anomolies. Null should be dangerous and not filled with uncatchable little **** ships.
James Cannon Fodder Republic University Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2015.08.27 03:09:43 - [13] - Quote Definitely agree that it's problematic to have corps operating out of high sec, and safe from direct conflict. What if superfleets could conquer sections of high sec, and high sec could expand into null? Would that help? Suppose Goonswarm took a Gallente system and then the Gallente declared war on them. So now you're a carebear in the Scope, and the Scope now has a wardec with Goonswarm. They can gank you in high sec, and you can gank them. You could join factional warfare for the Gallente and get tasked with killing members of the Goons, or fighting in Goon controlled sections of Null to establish Gallente sovereignty there. Would that be better or worse?
Sentamon Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 2305	Posted - 2015.08.27 03:10:01 - [14] - Quote True resource depletion and mechanics to discover new and destroy old systems would go a long way toward fixing the stagnation. ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~
James Cannon Fodder Republic University Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2015.08.27 03:16:53 - [15] - Quote That's an intersting idea. In order to keep the server from becoming impossible huge, maybe old, depleted, systems would have their jump gates decomissioned? So they vanish from the map, and a new system gets added?
Alavaria Fera GoonWaffe 6819	Posted - 2015.08.27 03:22:47 - [16] - Quote James Cannon Fodder wrote: Would that be better or worse? Well, if you really must ask... James Cannon Fodder wrote: They can gank you in high sec Yeah.... Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall. We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
Webvan All Kill No Skill 13194	Posted - 2015.08.27 03:25:26 - [17] - Quote James Cannon Fodder wrote: Why are there small gangs in Los Angeles? By your logic, shouldn't everyone be joining one giant super gang? Wut? I grew up in LA. Your comment is just nuts. Those are some ruthless international gangs. Far more members than EVE's daily PCU, waay more. LA is a freaken sanctuary city, owned by illegals in massive gangs running guns, drugs, slaves and spreading contagious diseases while looting tax payers though state, local and federal handouts that corrupt politicians give 'em for their votes. ahh yet another null thread I'm in it for the money Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12
d0cTeR9 Astro Technologies SpaceMonkey's Alliance 223	Posted - 2015.08.27 03:29:14 - [18] - Quote How about waiting for the new sov system to be up and running and then tweaked? Oh and how about stop bitching and whining on the forums because your corporation of 10 can't do anything. Been around since the beginning.
James Cannon Fodder Republic University Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2015.08.27 03:30:56 - [19] - Quote I guess I don't really know how the mechanics would work. It seems like there should be a tipping point where an alliance that reaches a certain size becomes a faction, and gets treated like a faction by Concord and the others. Concord is a police force. In theory (although perhaps not in practice), it doesn't have the resources to get involved in interfaction battles. One reason why "factional warfare" even is allowed, right? (I haven't participated in it, so I'm not sure how it works exactly, though.)
James Cannon Fodder Republic University Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2015.08.27 03:34:15 - [20] - Quote d0cTeR9 wrote: How about waiting for the new sov system to be up and running and then tweaked? Oh and how about stop bitching and whining on the forums because your corporation of 10 can't do anything. I just want to see the battles "mydingaling" was talking about. I'm not in any corp or alliance right now. I haven't had time to dedicate any serious time to this game for a year now, getting maybe one day off a week (sometimes 13 day stretches.) Joining Goons is always an option. But a boring one. Joining a "corporation of 10 that can't do anything" is also an option. But also a boring one. I want a not boring option.
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 2420	Posted - 2015.08.27 03:39:42 - [21] - Quote James Cannon Fodder wrote: I guess I don't really know how the mechanics would work. It seems like there should be a tipping point where an alliance that reaches a certain size becomes a faction, and gets treated like a faction by Concord and the others. Concord is a police force. In theory (although perhaps not in practice), it doesn't have the resources to get involved in interfaction battles. One reason why "factional warfare" even is allowed, right? (I haven't participated in it, so I'm not sure how it works exactly, though.) Capsuleers don't control populations of trillions. Null worlds simply aren't developed. So that's why capsuleers don't become factions, because they don't have the baseliners behind them to do so. Even if we have personal wealth we don't have all the other stuff that the Empires do.
James Cannon Fodder Republic University Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2015.08.27 03:50:46 - [22] - Quote Technically, we can start and manage colonies, but I see your point. I guess we don't have a way to take actual control over an inhabited world. We can't even remove other players' colonies. So we're not really much of a threat that way. How would a large player alliance compare with a faction like Guristas, though? Is that a fair comparison?
Caleb Seremshur Gladiators of Rage RAZOR Alliance 617	Posted - 2015.08.27 04:03:08 - [23] - Quote James Cannon Fodder wrote: d0cTeR9 wrote: How about waiting for the new sov system to be up and running and then tweaked? Oh and how about stop bitching and whining on the forums because your corporation of 10 can't do anything. I just want to see the battles "mydingaling" was talking about. I'm not in any corp or alliance right now. I haven't had time to dedicate any serious time to this game for a year now, getting maybe one day off a week (sometimes 13 day stretches between days off.) Joining Goons is always an option. But a boring one. Joining a "corporation of 10 that can't do anything" is also an option. But also a boring one. I want a not boring option. Try going outside. What, you wanted people to spoon feed you? It's human nature to kill a problem before it becomes a threat - which forms part of the issue at large. The only correct thing you have alluded to is eve having a social problem compounded by poorly executed mechanics. Veteran and solo/small gang PVP advocate.
James Cannon Fodder Republic University Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2015.08.27 04:05:55 - [24] - Quote Caleb Seremshur wrote: James Cannon Fodder wrote: Try going outside. I can do that without paying a monthly subscription. Quote: The only correct thing you have alluded to is eve having a social problem compounded by poorly executed mechanics. Yeah. And I'd like to think that is enough to be worth discussing.
Alavaria Fera GoonWaffe 6819	Posted - 2015.08.27 04:28:11 - [25] - Quote James Cannon Fodder wrote: And I'd like to think that is enough to be worth discussing. This is GD, the bar isn't that high. But the rewards aren't high either... Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall. We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
James Cannon Fodder Republic University Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2015.08.27 05:00:44 - [26] - Quote Lol. So now I need to structure the thread's game mechanics so there is more reward.
Webvan All Kill No Skill 13201	Posted - 2015.08.27 05:12:29 - [27] - Quote James Cannon Fodder wrote: d0cTeR9 wrote: How about waiting for the new sov system to be up and running and then tweaked? Oh and how about stop bitching and whining on the forums because your corporation of 10 can't do anything. I just want to see the battles "mydingaling" was talking about. I'm not in any corp or alliance right now. I haven't had time to dedicate any serious time to this game for a year now, getting maybe one day off a week (sometimes 13 day stretches between days off.) Joining Goons is always an option. But a boring one. Joining a "corporation of 10 that can't do anything" is also an option. But also a boring one. I want a not boring option. Have you ever considered so does CCP? They make a big deal of big battles, historically, just things from what I can tell are in a state of mess construction wise as this is some years in the coming and not an over night thing. They also take input on the changes, so cant be a bad thing compared to other games where they just don't care and worry more about the big whales. I think things will work out in time, provide battles yet still be lucrative for alliances to still prosper so to stage such battles. Posting special snowflake redundant threads rather than in the more official sov input threads, and by people not even engaged in sov, I think is a little odd. I'm in it for the money Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12
James Cannon Fodder Republic University Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2015.08.27 05:23:06 - [28] - Quote I used to operate in null. A long time ago when I had a sane job. I dont' know for sure what SOV even matters. The issue of having fleet battles is trying to get factions to a near enough equal size so the fight isn't a foregone conclusion before it even begins. It seems the problem in need of a solution is that, once a certain fraction of the population has all joined the same faction, there is no longer anything to fight about. At that point, they have effectively created a high sec outside of highsec. Only difference is the occasional interceptor or stealth bomber popping in to try and gank a mining barge. Perhaps a true wildland is just an impossible ideal? Probably someone will set up a stable empire in WH space sometime soon too.
James Cannon Fodder Republic University Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2015.08.27 05:27:48 - [29] - Quote Webvan wrote: Have you ever considered so does CCP? I think they give it quite a lot of thought. But neither they, nor anyone else, appears to have been able to come up with a way to keep things interesting. I don't have any good ideas. I've been throwing out bad ideas on this thread just to see what the discussion brings. The input people have given has been helpful in illuminating this issue. I think this is also a problem in real life politics. Things sometimes just get so stable they stagnate.
Josef Djugashvilis 2978	Posted - 2015.08.27 05:28:38 - [30] - Quote Webvan wrote: James Cannon Fodder wrote: Why are there small gangs in Los Angeles? By your logic, shouldn't everyone be joining one giant super gang? Wut? I grew up in LA. Your comment is just nuts. Those are some ruthless international gangs. Far more members than EVE's daily PCU, waay more. LA is a freaken sanctuary city, owned by illegals in massive gangs running guns, drugs, slaves and spreading contagious diseases while looting tax payers though state, local and federal handouts that corrupt politicians give 'em for their votes. ahh yet another null thread Donald Trump, is that you? This is not a signature.

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