How about nerfing T2 / Hacs ? Lets give them T1 resistances ! Cause it is overpowered to have t2 resistances !

Or another idea, lets nerf all ships and fly ibises ! Then everyone would be equal !

Such advanced technologies can not be limited like that. It is more advanced than T2 and applying nerf limitations isn't a good sign. T3D have to be better than T2 frigs in certain ares not all of them but still. Otherwise it is shame to have an advanced technology which couldn't perform well.

The whole small ship meta needs to be taken care of right now. I'm talking about all the ships that use small sized weapons, including T3Ds.

T3Ds cost significantly less than most pirate faction frigates, yet are superior to them in every practical sense. Something needs to happen here, not sure what, maybe it's an increase in T3D production costs, or a nerf or whatever, but I don't think it can stay this way.

The pirate faction frigate themselves must be looked at yet again. Garmur and Astero are fine. Garmur isn't OP, links are OP and Garmur works really well with them (get rid of links pls). Worm is fine (maybe a bit OP, not sure on that). Cruor needs to be overhauled. Too much potential utility and not enough actual viability. Not great for solo and there are better things to use in gangs and fleets. Unfortunate but true. Also whoever thought of putting a 5m3 drone bay on the Cruor must have done that as a cruel joke. That's just horrible. Succubus, Dramiel and Daredevil are a little overshadowed by the other ones but they're still good. IMO they should be buffed ever so slightly but hey, whatever.

Assault ships should be faster than T3Ds but they are actually slower. Boom nailed it.

It's not power creep brah. The Cruor needs to be re-worked, period, regardless of T3Ds. Succubus Dramiel and Daredevil suggestion was because I think they should be "ever so slightly buffed" as I said so they are more comparable with Astero, Garmur, and Worm. Admittedly a lot of people think those ships should be nerfed because they're OP but I really don't think so, I think for their price and the fact they are pirate frigates they are pretty much balanced where they should be. But in the case of the Garmur it benefits greatly from links, but that's because links are broken and probably going to be fixed some time soon, so you can't nerf the Garmur because of that.

I also said Assault Ships should be faster than T3Ds but that also does not qualify as power creep because while it can be accomplished by buffing the AF, it can also be accomplished by nerfing the T3Ds. Or a combination of both of those options, etc.

So the 1 ship I said really needs a buff is the Cruor. And it really does. Succubus Dramiel and Daredevil not so much but I think they should be, even if only very slightly. If you disagree that's fine but I don't think my suggestion is power creep.

Dude please, who in **** does that.


If you go for strawmen, at least pick a decent one

I'd buff AF's before nerfing T3Ds simply because I like both but I agree 100% with your assessment... AFs are in a bad place but T3Ds are fun as F to fly.

Don't nerf T3s, buff Battleships and Assault Frigates!

Although, a ~2s 'warm-up' timer on mode switching in T3Ds would remove their insta-warp ability and bring them back into line.

...or HACs (Ishtars, Cerbs), stealth bombers, BCs like it happened in some of the major clashes within the last days. Sure you can fit 2 1600mm plates on a Proteus just like you can fit oversized prop mods on almost any ship if you wish to. But then again, what do you get? Exactly, a point range bonused brick. You will gimp the rest of your fit doing that.

oh my god shut the **** up really.

NO most Proteus fits don't involve 2 1600 plates, because to do so you have to gimp the fit so much it's not worth it. FFS medium ions on a ship that is so ******* slow a dread could kite it. The only fit involving 2 plates is just a tackler, damage ain't even part of the picture.

Also ******* stop with this "baaaah proteus has more tank than a battleship"

The pretty much universal proteus combat fit has around 250k EHP (slaves, links), and it costs around 1 bil, also makes you lose SP on death. 1 plate, 250mm rails.

If you want to compare that (tankiest T3, pricetag around 1 bil) to a battleship, you don't compare it to any battleship.

You compare it to the one fitting the same role (heavy fat mofo with short to medium range guns), which is the Navy Mega. Most commmonly used Navy Mega fit, that for around the same pricetag offers around 420k EHP (slaves, links, which also is way more than a double plated prot gets), less susceptible to alpha, more damage, no SP loss on death, in exchange for bigger signature and bigger res guns, which aren't a factor unless your FC ****** up.

I have no problems discussing slight tweakings, but this ship is in no way absolutely imbalanced as you say it is.

You can fit a bs tank on a maller if you cared to. Actual t3s are kinda ****, super expensive and you lose sp and not even that good.


A rattler is like 320 at the moment. compared to still 400ish for a t3 + subs.

You've got a point there, I give you that.

On the other hand, if cost and skill requirements are non-factors in that equation, why do we still see HAC, BC, BS fleets that freqently used if they are inferior in any aspect to T3Cs? The Conclusion seems pretty obvious to me. Either there have to be scenarios where those ships are just a more appropriate tool than T3Cs or cost/ skill requirements seem to be a factor for a lot of pilots.

Cost literally means everything in this game. A deimos is a vastly better cruiser then a thorax, due to cost. A worm is a better frigate then the tristan, due to cost. Everything in this game is balanced by cost.

Not sure you can balance the game on the assumption that everyone is in an uber rich coalition with full SRP.

At that point you might as well just remove T1 ships altogether.

If cost is meaningless then they are rendered useless already. But thankfully cost isnt meaningless at all, hence t3s not being op at all.

(always talking about cruisers, not t3ds - who interstingly are broken mostly cost wise, if they they were 90mil a pop they would be perfectly balanced)

The thing is tech 3 cruisers are straight up bad, a hac is better in most cases. If afs were better and a lot cheaper then t3ds then you would see more afs, however they are just worse.

Even without cost to consider hacs are better or equally as good in most cases, recons are straight up better then t3s for small scale stuff. Logis obviously are better and so on.



The only place t3s take hac spots are biggish fleets, and for the high sp folks cs are better anyways.

Yes, but just in worse and in more expensive. A neut legion is a way worse curse in most small scale scenarios, loki is a worse rapier/huginn and so on. And a proteus is basicely a deimos for actual pvp and a tengu isnt bonused to rlmls so its sht in the current meta (discounting massive ffeet railfits), loki just straight up blows.

And all of them have to compete with pirate cruisers due to their price level, and the pirate cruisers atm wipe the floor with them all (by pirate cruiser i mean orthrus and gila).




If the good hacs were gone, if pirate cruisers were gone, if pirate bs were up to their old prices, if cs didnt exsit, if recons were **** again and didnt have broken role bonuses then maybe t3s would be op. But they are not.




The bottom line is that a 100k ehp ship with 1k dps that is capstable is garbage at the moment because it also is slow as hell and has no range.

Neut legion and curses aren't even comparable. 80km heavy neut legion? Nope. 40km med neuting? Nope. This is like apples and bananas.

Web Loki is an armortanker unles you count 8+bil officer lokis as actual huginn replacements normal. Else there's a difference between 55km webs and 95km webs. A rather huge one.

First off, solo is no option for recon alike t3s

It actually does make a huge difference, especially with the legion versus curse. The legion cannot get near the level of a curse. It only comes close if you brick tank it and fly in a fleet, and it still has terrible range that a Maller can do pretty much the same thing. If you are solo or small gang forget about it, because if you fit a cloak then you have to use lasers and your damage sucks and you don't get to use enough neuts anyway, if you go drone subsystem you dont get the cloak so youre still mediocre compared to curse or pilgrim

Not really. In reality you aren't playing at ranges that long as you want to either be with your tackle, in weapons range or if solo you will be at 24-30 km range max. Plus thanks to the huge cap on the t3 ships you can make your neut legion cap stable even with the prop mod on.