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MC v RAGOON

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Waagaa Ktlehr Amarr Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.12.17 04:30:00 - [31] Edited by: Waagaa Ktlehr on 17/12/2006 04:32:32 Originally by: Aterna Efficiency wouldn't be so hard to gauge if everyone was paying the same amount for the same ship. No doubt an alliance like BoB or ASCN has access to many different T2 and T1 BPOs that they use to manufacture replacements, whereas newer corporations and alliances won't have that industrial edge. Opportunity cost anyone? A 250m HAC loss is a 250m HAC loss regardless of how you are able to get the HAC. When you lose a HAC in both situations, you lose 250m, either: - 250m to replace the lost HAC - 250m less from HAC sales, because you take a HAC from the sales hangar The only way this would fly is if you actually have a supplier that gives you a discount that isn't inside your organization. Originally by: Aterna Efficiency does have its uses, especially for a mercenary organization. The less losses they take, the more profit they generate from the contract cash and bonus. Funny. :) I think our members have cheaper access to most HACs than ASCN members have. :)) - - One ship to jam them all, one ship to damp them. One ship to suck them dry and in the dark void gank them.
Seleene Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.12.17 06:38:00 - [32] Originally by: Traxio Nacho Originally by: Skrypt I'm really disappointed in you, Seleene. Only 72% efficiency? I remember the days when MC weren't newbs... I know it was all good till we recruited Max LOL @ Max! Oh, and if we had a killboard with a 'Veldspar Rating' I think people would find a way to say, "OMG, you guys used to mine so much and now you car teh sUx0rz!" - Fight the Darkness!
Choi Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.12.17 06:49:00 - [33] sorry but efficiency is everything as it is the most accurate way of determining wether you "win" or "lose" eve. As an example if ascn wanna sit and throw ships at bob all day to save their stations, and for some reason succeed but lose 5000 ships in the process, thats not a win, its a disaster that has annhialated any notion that they know how to pvp. eve = max damage vs minimal loss by any means necessary
snerdly	Posted - 2006.12.17 06:51:00 - [34] Since I don't believe anyone has actually said this yet, and it realllly needs to be said: OP, you are a complete and utter moron. Idiocy seems almost to radiate from your posts. If you ever post again, I will hunt you down and beat you senseless with your computer monitor. Afterwards, I will throw you, naked and covered in barbeque sauce, down a well full of rabid wolverines. This has been a public service announcement by snerdly.
Karmic Caldari Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.12.17 06:57:00 - [35] Originally by: Choi sorry but efficiency is everything as it is the most accurate way of determining wether you "win" or "lose" eve. As an example if ascn wanna sit and throw ships at bob all day to save their stations, and for some reason succeed but lose 5000 ships in the process, thats not a win, its a disaster that has annhialated any notion that they know how to pvp. eve = max damage vs minimal loss by any means necessary erm nope thats why when for example Burn Eden publish there kill statistics quite alot of people tell them well done but unfortunately against either a well orgainised or huge alliance those kills mean sweet fa you would find that the alliance loses that many ships npc'ing over the period. Kills in terms of raw isk mean nothing. Kills the satify personal/corp/alliance goals have a meaning. If ASCN was to throw every last person at BoB and keep on going till BoB stopped then it would be a victory for ASCN, BoB might have a whale of a time but they would have been stopped from achieving a goal. - - - - - - - - -
Choi Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.12.17 07:08:00 - [36] Edited by: Choi on 17/12/2006 07:08:11 Originally by: Karmic erm nope thats why when for example Burn Eden publish there kill statistics quite alot of people tell them well done but unfortunately against either a well orgainised or huge alliance those kills mean sweet fa you would find that the alliance loses that many ships npc'ing over the period. wrong, and tbh as mc you should know better. Burn Eden are very effective at what they do and in concert with other forces ( for instance when they were in deklein ) can really mess people up to the point that they dont log in because theyre afraid to die. Burn Eden leave long before they finish off alliances completely which is fine. Oh and If theres an alliance losing that many ships npcing they should quite eve tbh... Originally by: Karmic Kills in terms of raw isk mean nothing. It Only keeps more and more people from showing up to fights, more and more people getting angry at FC's for losing battles, and more and more people out and out quitting. Originally by: Karmic Kills the satify personal/corp/alliance goals have a meaning. If ASCN was to throw every last person at BoB and keep on going till BoB stopped then it would be a victory for ASCN, BoB might have a whale of a time but they would have been stopped from achieving a goal. What goal? To lose their alliance leader, half a dozen outposts, hundreds of billions of isk, and disgruntled members so they can put up a valiant fight? show me a war in eve where superior efficiency wasnt the winner.
EvilMetal Warped Mining	Posted - 2006.12.17 07:25:00 - [37] heidrun thanks for post with your real name and not keep hidding like this. don't tell me you are from Caelli-Merced, i was in Caelli-Merced for 6 month play every day and never see you online as all member... Regards,
Reservoir Dog Free Space Tech	Posted - 2006.12.17 07:28:00 - [38] Originally by: Choi show me a war in eve where superior efficiency wasnt the winner. LV's war for Scalding Pass.
Choi Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.12.17 07:41:00 - [39] Edited by: Choi on 17/12/2006 07:46:18 Quote: LV's war for Scalding Pass. Mustve been a small war cuz I dont remember that happening
Karmic Caldari Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.12.17 08:58:00 - [40] omg its ith........ j/j I wub you ith TBH Choi yes it used to be about the raw isk damage you could do to a target this has changed and when it changed a lot of alliances that could not/would not evolve with the game collapsed or became "shadows" of there former selves. Now the long term game is about power (not to be confused with isk) which is strength of arms, economic or political. These are exerted to gain the trappings which usually go along with any kind of power. Also the MC have tried to find a better way of demonstrating "effiency" during contracts, we have a few ideas on other ways to do it but these may or may not be implemented. Now you didn't seem to get the Burn Eden example. So I will explain it abit better. The amount of damage that they could do to a well organised/large alliance is an annoyance at best, you commented that if the lost that many ships to NPC's over say a 2-4 week stretch then they should quit EVE. I put it to you that if they can't cope with the ammount of damage that a single/small group of corps can do over that same time period then they really need someone to come along and kick them back into empire. Anyway since you are showing such an interest the paperwork for your membership to the Official BOB... ISS... MC... CCP... (please delete as appropriate) Fanbwoi club is on its way out to you, also included is your complementary gift of a TII foil hat. - - - - - - - - -
Reservoir Dog Free Space Tech	Posted - 2006.12.17 09:08:00 - [41] Originally by: Choi Edited by: Choi on 17/12/2006 07:46:18 Quote: LV's war for Scalding Pass. Mustve been a small war cuz I dont remember that happening Well if you think 640 pilots from 6 alliances in local, titan, 20 dreads, large amount of carriers and 700+ kills within 24 hours for single system - it is small war so i wonder what you gonna cal BIG war.
Verone Veto.	Posted - 2006.12.17 11:02:00 - [42] Originally by: Choi sorry but efficiency is everything as it is the most accurate way of determining wether you "win" or "lose" eve. As an example if ascn wanna sit and throw ships at bob all day to save their stations, and for some reason succeed but lose 5000 ships in the process, thats not a win, its a disaster that has annhialated any notion that they know how to pvp. eve = max damage vs minimal loss by any means necessary In general terms, yes. In Mercenary terms no. What does a merc seek? What keeps him in business? Client Satisfaction. In respect of that, which merc corp is better value for money and most effective for the client? A Merc Corp that takes 40 losses and makes 400 kills? A Merc Corp that takes 400 losses, and makes 800 kills? Worrying about an awesome kill to death ratio is for those who want to stretch their e-peen. Getting the job done and inflicting significant to massive losses on a target you're contracted to hit is for those who actually want to be effective, so long as the corp comes out at an overall profit at the end of the contract. VETO FOR HIRE
Stamm Amarr Three Holdings Rule of Three	Posted - 2006.12.17 11:08:00 - [43] Originally by: Verone A Merc Corp that takes 40 losses and makes 400 kills? A Merc Corp that takes 400 losses, and makes 800 kills? It depends on the contract and what's meant to be achieved. If the contract is to deplete the target of combat capable ships, then the second is better. If the contract is to hamper their operations then the first might be better. There's more variables than how much ISK and how many ships someone has. What also matters is their willingness to fight. If they lose 10 ships for every 1 they kill they're going to avoid fighting. If they lose 2 for every 1 they kill, they might enjoy it a bit more and fight a bit more. If you can get to the point where resistance is futile then you'll start to see corp members AWOL, whining, leaving or doing the garden that they've been putting off for weeks.
Vrizuh Eve Defence Force Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.12.17 11:27:00 - [44] Can someone please go do 15 billion isk damage to BoB and tell me if they care? A ratio is a pretty 2 dimensional way of analysing things. What about factors such as the ability of the target to regenerate or cope with the damage? What if your goal was to hurt morale (as Stamm suggests above) but you actually just made the target close ranks and support one another more? A ratio is a nice way to determine how cost effective a campaign or fighting style is, but determining a winner requires actually examining the two parties left standing and how strongly they're standing. I needed more isk, so I took a risk. I mined some ore then fled once more. I'll return to the core to escape the war!
Dekiri Exanimo Inc	Posted - 2006.12.17 12:00:00 - [45] In the end all that should count and probably also counts for MC is if they where able to satisfy the customer. Ratio means nothing if the objectives are not met and if the ratio is bad and the objective is met then the mission was accomplished. MC seem to mostly have positive ratio's, but i would rather call that a side effect. --------------------------------- Exanimo Inc. - Mercs for hire Join channel "CONTRACT EXAN" in game if you wish to hire Exanimo Inc. for your war! My dad can beat up your dad!
Verone Veto.	Posted - 2006.12.17 12:11:00 - [46] Originally by: Vrizuh A ratio is a nice way to determine how cost effective a campaign or fighting style is, but determining a winner requires actually examining the two parties left standing and how strongly they're standing. Being cost effective for me is doing as much damage as possible and turning over a profit at the end of it when the payment is factored in so long as contract objectives are met, nothing more. I just don't see the point in what most people do, coming to Eve-O and posting... OMG LOlOLoLOL We bbq'd 346245672457256723 ships and only lost 2345, OlOLoL we r teh leet. What's the point in being out to impress someone with fancy ratios when all they're paying you to do is kill someone till they die from it, or complete a set objectives. Being effective in a client's eyes has nothing to do with the amount of losses you take if you're contracted to kill someone, it simply means you're in combat a lot and probably fighting outnumbered. Personally in the shoes of a mark, I'd be more demoralised if I was fighting aganist someone hired on me, and desipte them losing more than they kill, they kept coming back, and back, and back... relentlessly. Each to his own, I guess. VETO FOR HIRE
Arakk Caldari VersaTech Interstellar Ltd. SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.17 12:26:00 - [47] Originally by: Verone Originally by: Vrizuh A ratio is a nice way to determine how cost effective a campaign or fighting style is, but determining a winner requires actually examining the two parties left standing and how strongly they're standing. Being cost effective for me is doing as much damage as possible and turning over a profit at the end of it when the payment is factored in so long as contract objectives are met, nothing more. I just don't see the point in what most people do, coming to Eve-O and posting... OMG LOlOLoLOL We bbq'd 346245672457256723 ships and only lost 2345, OlOLoL we r teh leet. What's the point in being out to impress someone with fancy ratios when all they're paying you to do is kill someone till they die from it, or complete a set objectives. Being effective in a client's eyes has nothing to do with the amount of losses you take if you're contracted to kill someone, it simply means you're in combat a lot and probably fighting outnumbered. Personally in the shoes of a mark, I'd be more demoralised if I was fighting aganist someone hired on me, and desipte them losing more than they kill, they kept coming back, and back, and back... relentlessly. Each to his own, I guess. also...though i suppose anything is possible in eve...a ratio such as posted of kills/losses does not show you the whole story. why is pretty obvious, especially regarding a contract or addition of another alliance in a war. campaign efficiency rates are ratio's of alliance vs alliance(s) yes...however such ratios are rarely possible without the help of the original people in the fight. such ratio's are good for mercenary alliances that take contracts of parties in wars already on a level population playing field. the addition of another force boosts their efficiency as well as their contractor, because theyre fighting together...not separately...though i could be wrong and such is the risk of gambling...i'd put money on their contractors/people on the "friendly" side have a VERY similar amount of kills in that time period...and in fact share the majority of those kills WITH mc. again just a bet...im too lazy to actually check for myself.
Vrizuh Eve Defence Force Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.12.17 14:00:00 - [48] Yes! I got quoted by Verone. Not sure why, but I can already feel his/her fame oozing all over me. Mmmmmmm, ooze. >_> <_< I needed more isk, so I took a risk. I mined some ore then fled once more. I'll return to the core to escape the war!
Arriadna Gallente Night Guards	Posted - 2006.12.17 14:17:00 - [49] It was a nice war. I hope that MC enjoy our meeting in Eram __________ RA fangirl.
Reservoir Dog Free Space Tech	Posted - 2006.12.17 14:37:00 - [50] Edited by: Reservoir Dog on 17/12/2006 14:37:54 Originally by: Arriadna It was a nice war. I hope that MC enjoy our meeting in Eram __________ RA fangirl. Basic alt posting rule - never say "our", "us", "me" and "we".
Vrizuh Eve Defence Force Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.12.17 14:39:00 - [51] Originally by: Reservoir Dog Edited by: Reservoir Dog on 17/12/2006 14:37:54 Originally by: Arriadna It was a nice war. I hope that MC enjoy our meeting in Eram __________ RA fangirl. Basic alt posting rule - never say "our", "us", "me" and "we". She said neither, plus, had a sig saying RA Fangirl. Doesn't that kind of make bias very overt? I needed more isk, so I took a risk. I mined some ore then fled once more. I'll return to the core to escape the war!
Choi Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.12.17 14:43:00 - [52] Originally by: Karmic TBH Choi yes it used to be about the raw isk damage you could do to a target this has changed and when it changed a lot of alliances that could not/would not evolve with the game collapsed or became "shadows" of there former selves. I guess I wasn't clear enough, im not talking damage to isk, im talking damage in any shape or form without taking more losses. Kill a pos with no losses?=win take an outpost with few losses?= win lock down the hostile entity's space with no losses?=win Those aren't ship kills but it is damage done. in the end the goal is to make them quite and leave which = win The other side of my point is you cant accomplish the above if you lose more than they do. Suddenly they are winning the war and are willing to put more time and effort into this conflict because they are confident they can win. Originally by: Karmic Now the long term game is about power (not to be confused with isk) which is strength of arms, economic or political. These are exerted to gain the trappings which usually go along with any kind of power. You dont get any of that by losing every fight your in Originally by: Karmic Now you didn't seem to get the Burn Eden example. So I will explain it abit better. The amount of damage that they could do to a well organised/large alliance is an annoyance at best, you commented that if the lost that many ships to NPC's over say a 2-4 week stretch then they should quit EVE. I put it to you that if they can't cope with the ammount of damage that a single/small group of corps can do over that same time period then they really need someone to come along and kick them back into empire. Sorry, im thinking of BS losses into the hundreds for any large alliance and burn eden. Now like I said, that many losses to npc's and you should re-evaluate which games you like to play. And tbh the only reason most of those alliances are out there is because of pos and whatnot. POS throws a wrench into the game in that now there is a cut off point where above this imaginary line you cant kick someone out, but in the end the same doctrine max damage minimum losses applies. Originally by: Karmic Anyway since you are showing such an interest the paperwork for your membership to the Official BOB... ISS... MC... CCP... (please delete as appropriate) Fanbwoi club is on its way out to you, also included is your complementary gift of a TII foil hat. No im not, in fact I wasnt addressing you in my first post, then you said I was wrong. I dont want your tinfoil hats and Im not a fanboi. Frankly your jaded, "im too good for you" childish attitude just makes you look silly.
Reservoir Dog Free Space Tech	Posted - 2006.12.17 14:46:00 - [53] Originally by: Vrizuh She said neither, plus, had a sig saying RA Fangirl. Doesn't that kind of make bias very overt? Not going to go into discussion with you. Because i know what he meant while you do not have a clue.
Aterna Minmatar M'8'S	Posted - 2006.12.17 14:58:00 - [54] Originally by: Waagaa Ktlehr Edited by: Waagaa Ktlehr on 17/12/2006 04:32:32 Originally by: Aterna Efficiency wouldn't be so hard to gauge if everyone was paying the same amount for the same ship. No doubt an alliance like BoB or ASCN has access to many different T2 and T1 BPOs that they use to manufacture replacements, whereas newer corporations and alliances won't have that industrial edge. Opportunity cost anyone? A 250m HAC loss is a 250m HAC loss regardless of how you are able to get the HAC. When you lose a HAC in both situations, you lose 250m, either: - 250m to replace the lost HAC - 250m less from HAC sales, because you take a HAC from the sales hangar The only way this would fly is if you actually have a supplier that gives you a discount that isn't inside your organization. Originally by: Aterna Efficiency does have its uses, especially for a mercenary organization. The less losses they take, the more profit they generate from the contract cash and bonus. Funny. :) I think our members have cheaper access to most HACs than ASCN members have. :)) Exactly my point. When you lose a HAC, it costs you less to replace then it does another alliance. So, unless all parties involved in a conflict are buying ships at the same cost, it is very hard to gauge how much ISK damage they have sustained. This becomes more extreme the higher up the tech scale, and Capital ships are especially expensive for alliances that can't produce them internally. Next, are T2 modules. How many alliances are known to be able to produce a full suite of T2 items for all ships? very few I would wager. Those that are, can replace lost T2 gear cheaper then an alliance that has to buy them externally. Even when buying in bulk you can't possibly acquire T2 gear as cheaply as someone who produces their own. To sum it up: Were I to shoot a BoB ship, i can bet that the ship and nearly everything fitted to it was produced or supplied internally. Whereas If i pop some pirate in empire, I can bet that he bought his ship and T2 gear in Jita. Who did it cost more? The pirate in empire, because he had to pay out the ass for new gear, whereas the BoB guy got it for a reduced price, or even free if that's how they do it. Efficiency vs an entity varies wildly from one organization to another. - - -
Darkstar BP Caldari eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.12.17 18:59:00 - [55] For an outsider, it sounds like a good challenge to both sides. Have fun
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve	Posted - 2006.12.17 21:26:00 - [56] Originally by: Seleene Oh, and if we had a killboard with a 'Veldspar Rating' I think people would find a way to say, "OMG, you guys used to mine so much and now you car teh sUx0rz!" But then you'd just recruit Chribba. Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
Coasterbrian Celestial Fleet Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.12.17 21:34:00 - [57] Only one question: Whose Titan? ---------- I say what I mean, but I don't always mean what I say.
Aeon Yakati Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.12.17 23:39:00 - [58] Edited by: Aeon Yakati on 17/12/2006 23:40:00 Originally by: Coasterbrian Only one question: Whose Titan? I don't know the context of your question, but the answer is probably nor yours.
UPS Man Ye Olde Sweet Shoppe	Posted - 2006.12.18 03:13:00 - [59] Efficiency is always going to be high when you operate in the manner MC does; a) Having small gangs camp gates in empire, hitting vulnerable wardec targets, b) Roving gank squads moving through target station/ratting/mining areas choosing when to engage and when to move on. Neither of these tactics provide much chance for the mark to inflict much in the way of damages on the mercs, as they're guarunteed to be outgunned each time. If Veritas/LV hired MC because of this, then the contract was obviously focused on disrupting enemy rank and file. This is where the mistake was made. When you're facing an opponent determined to conquer new territory in order to earn more income, inflicting occasional and easily absorbed losses across a large memberbase is only going to strengthen their resolve and make them fight on harder. MC have significant capital assets that could have been ordered to counter-attack or even force the enemy to regroup and reconsider their advance. Instead they had instructions be little more than a nuisance, and this misjudgement contributed to the loss of Scalding Pass.
Randay 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.12.18 03:39:00 - [60] killboard stats make your ***** bigger.

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