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heidrun Caelli-Merced	Posted - 2006.12.16 20:17:00 - [1] so seleeeeene when are you gonna tell the community what happened?? if you got hammered to pieces then atleast admit it!
Xeliya Dark-Rising Fallen Souls	Posted - 2006.12.16 20:19:00 - [2] Edited by: Xeliya on 16/12/2006 20:20:05 Off their KB Total Kills: 102 Total ISK : 446M Total Losses: 6 Total ISK : 31M Contract still active according to it so I think they are doing good. ----------
heidrun Caelli-Merced	Posted - 2006.12.16 20:29:00 - [3] Originally by: Xeliya Edited by: Xeliya on 16/12/2006 20:20:05 Off their KB Total Kills: 102 Total ISK : 446M Total Losses: 6 Total ISK : 31M Contract still active according to it so I think they are doing good. oh really i just went to MC's killboard and it showed against RA .kills:109---- losses:836---eff:25% so tbh i think seleeeene need to clearify because to me it seems MC got wtfbbq'ed
Major Stormer Caldari Red Storm Vendetta	Posted - 2006.12.16 20:32:00 - [4] Originally by: heidrun Originally by: Xeliya Edited by: Xeliya on 16/12/2006 20:20:05 Off their KB Total Kills: 102 Total ISK : 446M Total Losses: 6 Total ISK : 31M Contract still active according to it so I think they are doing good. oh really i just went to MC's killboard and it showed against RA .kills:109---- losses:836---eff:25% so tbh i think seleeeene need to clearify because to me it seems MC got wtfbbq'ed Nope... Contract against GOONFLEET and RA: Total Kills: 102 Total ISK : 446M Total Losses: 6 Total ISK : 31M Would post the link but mods would BBQ me. Red Storm Vendetta is now recruiting! Click me for more info
heidrun Caelli-Merced	Posted - 2006.12.16 20:35:00 - [5] i cant find the contract you talk about.did mc engage ragoon in 0.0 or was it in agil or something?
Marcellus Corteaz	Posted - 2006.12.16 20:36:00 - [6] read up dumbass http://www.bdci-eve.net/killboard/?a=cc_detail&ctr_id=1
heidrun Caelli-Merced	Posted - 2006.12.16 20:42:00 - [7] there it say 461/80 kd ratio.so was it a sucess you think seleeene?? 95% of those are not RA it seems.avoiding RA intentionally?
Cabadrin Caldari Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.12.16 20:45:00 - [8] The Results Currently we are still fighting Goons and Tau Ceti in IAC space, so you may see some more kills Totals are: 461 kills 10424.37M in damages 80 losses 3762.26M in damages _______________________________________________
Torquemanda Corteaz Gallente Infinite Improbability Inc Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.12.16 20:47:00 - [9] Originally by: Marcellus Corteaz read up dumbass http://www.bdci-eve.net/killboard/?a=cc_detail&ctr_id=1 my alt char btw sorry (even though he's in corp too) and you seem to have an oral fixation with RA... MC will have done what theyre contractor asked them to do, if you wanted a scrap with them, you should have seeked them not the other way round....
Raivi Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2006.12.16 20:47:00 - [10] Edited by: Raivi on 16/12/2006 20:48:37 Originally by: heidrun there it say 461/80 kd ratio.so was it a sucess you think seleeene?? 95% of those are not RA it seems.avoiding RA intentionally? Actually, 1/4 of the kills are RA according to the KB. 53% Efficiency vs RA, could be better, but it's in the positives and the efficiency vs goonswarm is a respectable 87%. It looks to me like MC is doing ok, but not spectacularly. You on the other hand seem to be incapable to reading, and you keep stating incorrect "facts".
CallMe 8675309 Gallente Truth In Advertising	Posted - 2006.12.16 20:55:00 - [11] Does anyone really give a rat's ass about efficiency? I mean hey I'm sure certain barbarian archers had an awesome k/d ratio on Roman soldiers right up until their houses were burned to the ground and their leaders surrendered to Rome. WE DID 10 BILLION ISK IN DAMAGE TO GOONFLEET sounds great on paper until you realize that it's divided up amongst 1300 active pilots. Would BoB give a crap if somebody did 15 billion in damage to them over a week? Or D2? Nobody cares.
slothe Caldari Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.12.16 22:26:00 - [12] Originally by: CallMe 8675309 Does anyone really give a rat's ass about efficiency? yes Originally by: CallMe675309 Nobody cares. wrong *Before complaining about any ship try flying Minmatar*
mishkof Caldari Emerald Empire The Sundering	Posted - 2006.12.16 22:26:00 - [13] Originally by: CallMe 8675309 Does anyone really give a rat's ass about efficiency? To me efficiency is everthing. People dont stop wanting to fight because they lose t1 frigs. They stop wanting to fight because they are losing Battleships. If anyone every doas decisively beat bob it will be because they destroyed enough of their battle/cap ships without losing much of their own. Efficiency is a real easy way to tell that statistic. Revelations ruined my sig. If you are good at making sigs please send me an evemail.
Kaleeb S.Y.N.D.R.O.M.E.	Posted - 2006.12.16 22:42:00 - [14] Originally by: mishkof Originally by: CallMe 8675309 Does anyone really give a rat's ass about efficiency? To me efficiency is everthing. People dont stop wanting to fight because they lose t1 frigs. They stop wanting to fight because they are losing Battleships. If anyone every doas decisively beat bob it will be because they destroyed enough of their battle/cap ships without losing much of their own. Efficiency is a real easy way to tell that statistic. While i dont want this thread to turn into something about bob your so wrong it needs to be corrected. Efficiency matters to people who view success on how many kills they get etc e.g MC Bob will be happy to take losses in order to take your stations etc, bob look at the longterm goal and not the short sighted one of kills.
Abye Caldari UNITED STARS ORGANISATION	Posted - 2006.12.16 22:45:00 - [15] Economical damage is a key element for long term goals. Shooting down a T1 frig does no real econimical damage. Shooting down a HAC, now that hurts.
mishkof Caldari Emerald Empire The Sundering	Posted - 2006.12.16 22:47:00 - [16] Originally by: Kaleeb Originally by: mishkof Originally by: CallMe 8675309 Does anyone really give a rat's ass about efficiency? To me efficiency is everthing. People dont stop wanting to fight because they lose t1 frigs. They stop wanting to fight because they are losing Battleships. If anyone every doas decisively beat bob it will be because they destroyed enough of their battle/cap ships without losing much of their own. Efficiency is a real easy way to tell that statistic. While i dont want this thread to turn into something about bob your so wrong it needs to be corrected. Efficiency matters to people who view success on how many kills they get etc e.g MC Bob will be happy to take losses in order to take your stations etc, bob look at the longterm goal and not the short sighted one of kills. Right. How can anyone take station without capital ships? Only gankers care only about K/D ratio. Revelations ruined my sig. If you are good at making sigs please send me an evemail.
James Duar Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.12.16 22:52:00 - [17] Originally by: mishkof Edited by: mishkof on 16/12/2006 22:50:06 Originally by: Kaleeb Originally by: mishkof Originally by: CallMe 8675309 Does anyone really give a rat's ass about efficiency? To me efficiency is everthing. People dont stop wanting to fight because they lose t1 frigs. They stop wanting to fight because they are losing Battleships. If anyone every doas decisively beat bob it will be because they destroyed enough of their battle/cap ships without losing much of their own. Efficiency is a real easy way to tell that statistic. While i dont want this thread to turn into something about bob your so wrong it needs to be corrected. Efficiency matters to people who view success on how many kills they get etc e.g MC Bob will be happy to take losses in order to take your stations etc, bob look at the longterm goal and not the short sighted one of kills. Right. How can anyone take stations without capital ships? Only gankers care only about K/D ratio. Look at yourt last sentence. You agreed with me without realising it. This is a pretty good point actually, although a better one would be how much damage the MC do compared to someone's ability to replace stuff.
Kaleeb S.Y.N.D.R.O.M.E.	Posted - 2006.12.16 22:59:00 - [18] James once again its not always about kills. MC just being in empire often prevents freighter runs and supply runs as well as stopping people playing their normal game. How can you put an isk figure on that?
Kaleeb S.Y.N.D.R.O.M.E.	Posted - 2006.12.16 23:01:00 - [19] How on earth did I agree with you miskoff? Your saying that u need to get more kills and lose less to beat bob. I`m saying thats not the case...
Mitchman Omniscient Order The Sani Sabik	Posted - 2006.12.16 23:10:00 - [20] We are also fighting the same bunch of people. Enterprising minds can find the information they need on our killboard, I'm sure. www.omniscient-order.com
MACTEP Solar Dragons Red Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.16 23:54:00 - [21] Originally by: Major Stormer Originally by: heidrun Originally by: Xeliya Edited by: Xeliya on 16/12/2006 20:20:05 Off their KB Total Kills: 102 Total ISK : 446M Total Losses: 6 Total ISK : 31M Contract still active according to it so I think they are doing good. oh really i just went to MC's killboard and it showed against RA .kills:109---- losses:836---eff:25% so tbh i think seleeeene need to clearify because to me it seems MC got wtfbbq'ed Nope... Contract against GOONFLEET and RA: Total Kills: 102 Total ISK : 446M Total Losses: 6 Total ISK : 31M Would post the link but mods would BBQ me. 2 people during an hour may earn 500 mil... so your stats for noobs xxx
War Bear Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.12.17 00:21:00 - [22] Originally by: heidrun Originally by: Xeliya Edited by: Xeliya on 16/12/2006 20:20:05 Off their KB Total Kills: 102 Total ISK : 446M Total Losses: 6 Total ISK : 31M Contract still active according to it so I think they are doing good. oh really i just went to MC's killboard and it showed against RA .kills:109---- losses:836---eff:25% so tbh i think seleeeene need to clearify because to me it seems MC got wtfbbq'ed Who are you exactly and why does MC have to "clearify" anything to anyone other than ourselves or our clients? No matter where you go, there you are.
Seleene Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.12.17 00:25:00 - [23] Originally by: heidrun so seleeeeene when are you gonna tell the community what happened?? if you got hammered to pieces then atleast admit it! We got owned and ran away. Just like on every contract. Originally by: heidrun [oh really i just went to MC's killboard and it showed against RA .kills:109---- losses:836---eff:25% so tbh i think seleeeene need to clearify because to me it seems MC got wtfbbq'ed Yes, I'd be happy to. The screen you are looking at, which I am not allowed to link here, indicates RA's performance overall from their point of view for the entire history that the MC has existed (assuming that all of our old mails have no been imported correctly). So, basically, you read it backwards and owned yourself in public without any need for me to assist you. Now, as to all this talk about efficency and such, yes, it's an interesting stat. Those figures are modified based upon whatever market value we decide to assign to ships. So it is very possible for us to kill 50 BS and lose 7 but come out with a crappy efficency ratio if two ir three of those seven is a CNR or Vindicator. MC doesn't collect rare ships, we tend to actually use them because they work a little better. Sometimes we lose them. Oh well. Some of our member have more money than sense Seriously, two of our outposts were basically built out of two individuals pockets. It doesn't change the fact that we owned someone by the numbers or that we kept X number of pilots docked or that fifteen of us kept eighty of our targets occupied while our client was happily doing something else. Etc... etc.... etc... As has been pointed out, not all merc work is purely about what is 'killed'. Insofar as RAGoons went, it's interesting to see everyone assume what our client wanted us to do. It's even more interesting to see people trying to say that there was no client. Honestly, of all the people for us to hit for "fun", you guys think we'd pick this fight? Anyway, the actual "contract" totals were: Kills: 461 Losses: 80 Damage done (ISK): 10424.37M Damage received (ISK): 3762.26M Runtime: 10 days ISK Efficiency: 73.48% So, yeah... owned. We suck. We don't always do end of contract reports because sometimes we don't feel it's needed. We thought we'd be going longer but things didn't work out that way. In addition, I haven't really had the time, as I've been a bit distracted the last few days by this other little contract that's popped up... - Fight the Darkness!
Lowa Gallente North Star Networks Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2006.12.17 00:26:00 - [24] Efficiency means nothing! The goal and the outcome means everything. All other metrics are not important.* The perfect example is FIX vs AAA when FIX was putting up their OP. FIX lost 100's of ships, AAA lost a few in comparision. AAA came out on top on K/D or ISK but FIX saved their OP. Guess who most consider the "winner" in that fight? (I would say both for a faaantastic 30 hour fight! Hate you, also want epic fight! ) Regards, Lowa * Unless the client was only interested in a K/D-contract but hardly even then tbh. What if the truth was something else?
Kasigi Yabu	Posted - 2006.12.17 00:49:00 - [25] Don't listen to these guys, MC. GREAT job on fighting RAGOON alongside LV's Titan and preventing them from taking over V's capital! Oh wait
Skrypt Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.12.17 00:50:00 - [26] I'm really disappointed in you, Seleene. Only 72% efficiency? I remember the days when MC weren't newbs... ___________
Traxio Nacho Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.12.17 00:53:00 - [27] Originally by: Skrypt I'm really disappointed in you, Seleene. Only 72% efficiency? I remember the days when MC weren't newbs... I know it was all good till we recruited Max
mishkof Caldari Emerald Empire The Sundering	Posted - 2006.12.17 02:34:00 - [28] Originally by: Kaleeb How on earth did I agree with you miskoff? Your saying that u need to get more kills and lose less to beat bob. I`m saying thats not the case... I said Battleships and Capital ships...Which directly affect Efficieny more then anything else. So in that regard I believe that efficiency is the best indicator on how a battle is going. The first sentence I said in this thread is I take over all efficiency over everyhting else? Did you not read my post? If you arent going to comprehend my posts dont respond to them please. Revelations ruined my sig. If you are good at making sigs please send me an evemail.
nickycakes Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.12.17 02:45:00 - [29] Originally by: Traxio Nacho Originally by: Skrypt I'm really disappointed in you, Seleene. Only 72% efficiency? I remember the days when MC weren't newbs... I know it was all good till we recruited Max uparrow Rarely Outnumbered, Usually Outgunned, Never Outsmacked
Aterna Minmatar M'8'S	Posted - 2006.12.17 02:55:00 - [30] Efficiency wouldn't be so hard to gauge if everyone was paying the same amount for the same ship. No doubt an alliance like BoB or ASCN has access to many different T2 and T1 BPOs that they use to manufacture replacements, whereas newer corporations and alliances won't have that industrial edge. Efficiency does have its uses, especially for a mercenary organization. The less losses they take, the more profit they generate from the contract cash and bonus. - - -
Waagaa Ktlehr Amarr Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.12.17 04:30:00 - [31] Edited by: Waagaa Ktlehr on 17/12/2006 04:32:32 Originally by: Aterna Efficiency wouldn't be so hard to gauge if everyone was paying the same amount for the same ship. No doubt an alliance like BoB or ASCN has access to many different T2 and T1 BPOs that they use to manufacture replacements, whereas newer corporations and alliances won't have that industrial edge. Opportunity cost anyone? A 250m HAC loss is a 250m HAC loss regardless of how you are able to get the HAC. When you lose a HAC in both situations, you lose 250m, either: - 250m to replace the lost HAC - 250m less from HAC sales, because you take a HAC from the sales hangar The only way this would fly is if you actually have a supplier that gives you a discount that isn't inside your organization. Originally by: Aterna Efficiency does have its uses, especially for a mercenary organization. The less losses they take, the more profit they generate from the contract cash and bonus. Funny. :) I think our members have cheaper access to most HACs than ASCN members have. :)) - - One ship to jam them all, one ship to damp them. One ship to suck them dry and in the dark void gank them.
Seleene Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.12.17 06:38:00 - [32] Originally by: Traxio Nacho Originally by: Skrypt I'm really disappointed in you, Seleene. Only 72% efficiency? I remember the days when MC weren't newbs... I know it was all good till we recruited Max LOL @ Max! Oh, and if we had a killboard with a 'Veldspar Rating' I think people would find a way to say, "OMG, you guys used to mine so much and now you car teh sUx0rz!" - Fight the Darkness!
Choi Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.12.17 06:49:00 - [33] sorry but efficiency is everything as it is the most accurate way of determining wether you "win" or "lose" eve. As an example if ascn wanna sit and throw ships at bob all day to save their stations, and for some reason succeed but lose 5000 ships in the process, thats not a win, its a disaster that has annhialated any notion that they know how to pvp. eve = max damage vs minimal loss by any means necessary
snerdly	Posted - 2006.12.17 06:51:00 - [34] Since I don't believe anyone has actually said this yet, and it realllly needs to be said: OP, you are a complete and utter moron. Idiocy seems almost to radiate from your posts. If you ever post again, I will hunt you down and beat you senseless with your computer monitor. Afterwards, I will throw you, naked and covered in barbeque sauce, down a well full of rabid wolverines. This has been a public service announcement by snerdly.
Karmic Caldari Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.12.17 06:57:00 - [35] Originally by: Choi sorry but efficiency is everything as it is the most accurate way of determining wether you "win" or "lose" eve. As an example if ascn wanna sit and throw ships at bob all day to save their stations, and for some reason succeed but lose 5000 ships in the process, thats not a win, its a disaster that has annhialated any notion that they know how to pvp. eve = max damage vs minimal loss by any means necessary erm nope thats why when for example Burn Eden publish there kill statistics quite alot of people tell them well done but unfortunately against either a well orgainised or huge alliance those kills mean sweet fa you would find that the alliance loses that many ships npc'ing over the period. Kills in terms of raw isk mean nothing. Kills the satify personal/corp/alliance goals have a meaning. If ASCN was to throw every last person at BoB and keep on going till BoB stopped then it would be a victory for ASCN, BoB might have a whale of a time but they would have been stopped from achieving a goal. - - - - - - - - -
Choi Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.12.17 07:08:00 - [36] Edited by: Choi on 17/12/2006 07:08:11 Originally by: Karmic erm nope thats why when for example Burn Eden publish there kill statistics quite alot of people tell them well done but unfortunately against either a well orgainised or huge alliance those kills mean sweet fa you would find that the alliance loses that many ships npc'ing over the period. wrong, and tbh as mc you should know better. Burn Eden are very effective at what they do and in concert with other forces ( for instance when they were in deklein ) can really mess people up to the point that they dont log in because theyre afraid to die. Burn Eden leave long before they finish off alliances completely which is fine. Oh and If theres an alliance losing that many ships npcing they should quite eve tbh... Originally by: Karmic Kills in terms of raw isk mean nothing. It Only keeps more and more people from showing up to fights, more and more people getting angry at FC's for losing battles, and more and more people out and out quitting. Originally by: Karmic Kills the satify personal/corp/alliance goals have a meaning. If ASCN was to throw every last person at BoB and keep on going till BoB stopped then it would be a victory for ASCN, BoB might have a whale of a time but they would have been stopped from achieving a goal. What goal? To lose their alliance leader, half a dozen outposts, hundreds of billions of isk, and disgruntled members so they can put up a valiant fight? show me a war in eve where superior efficiency wasnt the winner.
EvilMetal Warped Mining	Posted - 2006.12.17 07:25:00 - [37] heidrun thanks for post with your real name and not keep hidding like this. don't tell me you are from Caelli-Merced, i was in Caelli-Merced for 6 month play every day and never see you online as all member... Regards,
Reservoir Dog Free Space Tech	Posted - 2006.12.17 07:28:00 - [38] Originally by: Choi show me a war in eve where superior efficiency wasnt the winner. LV's war for Scalding Pass.
Choi Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.12.17 07:41:00 - [39] Edited by: Choi on 17/12/2006 07:46:18 Quote: LV's war for Scalding Pass. Mustve been a small war cuz I dont remember that happening
Karmic Caldari Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.12.17 08:58:00 - [40] omg its ith........ j/j I wub you ith TBH Choi yes it used to be about the raw isk damage you could do to a target this has changed and when it changed a lot of alliances that could not/would not evolve with the game collapsed or became "shadows" of there former selves. Now the long term game is about power (not to be confused with isk) which is strength of arms, economic or political. These are exerted to gain the trappings which usually go along with any kind of power. Also the MC have tried to find a better way of demonstrating "effiency" during contracts, we have a few ideas on other ways to do it but these may or may not be implemented. Now you didn't seem to get the Burn Eden example. So I will explain it abit better. The amount of damage that they could do to a well organised/large alliance is an annoyance at best, you commented that if the lost that many ships to NPC's over say a 2-4 week stretch then they should quit EVE. I put it to you that if they can't cope with the ammount of damage that a single/small group of corps can do over that same time period then they really need someone to come along and kick them back into empire. Anyway since you are showing such an interest the paperwork for your membership to the Official BOB... ISS... MC... CCP... (please delete as appropriate) Fanbwoi club is on its way out to you, also included is your complementary gift of a TII foil hat. - - - - - - - - -
Reservoir Dog Free Space Tech	Posted - 2006.12.17 09:08:00 - [41] Originally by: Choi Edited by: Choi on 17/12/2006 07:46:18 Quote: LV's war for Scalding Pass. Mustve been a small war cuz I dont remember that happening Well if you think 640 pilots from 6 alliances in local, titan, 20 dreads, large amount of carriers and 700+ kills within 24 hours for single system - it is small war so i wonder what you gonna cal BIG war.
Verone Veto.	Posted - 2006.12.17 11:02:00 - [42] Originally by: Choi sorry but efficiency is everything as it is the most accurate way of determining wether you "win" or "lose" eve. As an example if ascn wanna sit and throw ships at bob all day to save their stations, and for some reason succeed but lose 5000 ships in the process, thats not a win, its a disaster that has annhialated any notion that they know how to pvp. eve = max damage vs minimal loss by any means necessary In general terms, yes. In Mercenary terms no. What does a merc seek? What keeps him in business? Client Satisfaction. In respect of that, which merc corp is better value for money and most effective for the client? A Merc Corp that takes 40 losses and makes 400 kills? A Merc Corp that takes 400 losses, and makes 800 kills? Worrying about an awesome kill to death ratio is for those who want to stretch their e-peen. Getting the job done and inflicting significant to massive losses on a target you're contracted to hit is for those who actually want to be effective, so long as the corp comes out at an overall profit at the end of the contract. VETO FOR HIRE
Stamm Amarr Three Holdings Rule of Three	Posted - 2006.12.17 11:08:00 - [43] Originally by: Verone A Merc Corp that takes 40 losses and makes 400 kills? A Merc Corp that takes 400 losses, and makes 800 kills? It depends on the contract and what's meant to be achieved. If the contract is to deplete the target of combat capable ships, then the second is better. If the contract is to hamper their operations then the first might be better. There's more variables than how much ISK and how many ships someone has. What also matters is their willingness to fight. If they lose 10 ships for every 1 they kill they're going to avoid fighting. If they lose 2 for every 1 they kill, they might enjoy it a bit more and fight a bit more. If you can get to the point where resistance is futile then you'll start to see corp members AWOL, whining, leaving or doing the garden that they've been putting off for weeks.
Vrizuh Eve Defence Force Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.12.17 11:27:00 - [44] Can someone please go do 15 billion isk damage to BoB and tell me if they care? A ratio is a pretty 2 dimensional way of analysing things. What about factors such as the ability of the target to regenerate or cope with the damage? What if your goal was to hurt morale (as Stamm suggests above) but you actually just made the target close ranks and support one another more? A ratio is a nice way to determine how cost effective a campaign or fighting style is, but determining a winner requires actually examining the two parties left standing and how strongly they're standing. I needed more isk, so I took a risk. I mined some ore then fled once more. I'll return to the core to escape the war!
Dekiri Exanimo Inc	Posted - 2006.12.17 12:00:00 - [45] In the end all that should count and probably also counts for MC is if they where able to satisfy the customer. Ratio means nothing if the objectives are not met and if the ratio is bad and the objective is met then the mission was accomplished. MC seem to mostly have positive ratio's, but i would rather call that a side effect. --------------------------------- Exanimo Inc. - Mercs for hire Join channel "CONTRACT EXAN" in game if you wish to hire Exanimo Inc. for your war! My dad can beat up your dad!
Verone Veto.	Posted - 2006.12.17 12:11:00 - [46] Originally by: Vrizuh A ratio is a nice way to determine how cost effective a campaign or fighting style is, but determining a winner requires actually examining the two parties left standing and how strongly they're standing. Being cost effective for me is doing as much damage as possible and turning over a profit at the end of it when the payment is factored in so long as contract objectives are met, nothing more. I just don't see the point in what most people do, coming to Eve-O and posting... OMG LOlOLoLOL We bbq'd 346245672457256723 ships and only lost 2345, OlOLoL we r teh leet. What's the point in being out to impress someone with fancy ratios when all they're paying you to do is kill someone till they die from it, or complete a set objectives. Being effective in a client's eyes has nothing to do with the amount of losses you take if you're contracted to kill someone, it simply means you're in combat a lot and probably fighting outnumbered. Personally in the shoes of a mark, I'd be more demoralised if I was fighting aganist someone hired on me, and desipte them losing more than they kill, they kept coming back, and back, and back... relentlessly. Each to his own, I guess. VETO FOR HIRE
Arakk Caldari VersaTech Interstellar Ltd. SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.17 12:26:00 - [47] Originally by: Verone Originally by: Vrizuh A ratio is a nice way to determine how cost effective a campaign or fighting style is, but determining a winner requires actually examining the two parties left standing and how strongly they're standing. Being cost effective for me is doing as much damage as possible and turning over a profit at the end of it when the payment is factored in so long as contract objectives are met, nothing more. I just don't see the point in what most people do, coming to Eve-O and posting... OMG LOlOLoLOL We bbq'd 346245672457256723 ships and only lost 2345, OlOLoL we r teh leet. What's the point in being out to impress someone with fancy ratios when all they're paying you to do is kill someone till they die from it, or complete a set objectives. Being effective in a client's eyes has nothing to do with the amount of losses you take if you're contracted to kill someone, it simply means you're in combat a lot and probably fighting outnumbered. Personally in the shoes of a mark, I'd be more demoralised if I was fighting aganist someone hired on me, and desipte them losing more than they kill, they kept coming back, and back, and back... relentlessly. Each to his own, I guess. also...though i suppose anything is possible in eve...a ratio such as posted of kills/losses does not show you the whole story. why is pretty obvious, especially regarding a contract or addition of another alliance in a war. campaign efficiency rates are ratio's of alliance vs alliance(s) yes...however such ratios are rarely possible without the help of the original people in the fight. such ratio's are good for mercenary alliances that take contracts of parties in wars already on a level population playing field. the addition of another force boosts their efficiency as well as their contractor, because theyre fighting together...not separately...though i could be wrong and such is the risk of gambling...i'd put money on their contractors/people on the "friendly" side have a VERY similar amount of kills in that time period...and in fact share the majority of those kills WITH mc. again just a bet...im too lazy to actually check for myself.
Vrizuh Eve Defence Force Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.12.17 14:00:00 - [48] Yes! I got quoted by Verone. Not sure why, but I can already feel his/her fame oozing all over me. Mmmmmmm, ooze. >_> <_< I needed more isk, so I took a risk. I mined some ore then fled once more. I'll return to the core to escape the war!
Arriadna Gallente Night Guards	Posted - 2006.12.17 14:17:00 - [49] It was a nice war. I hope that MC enjoy our meeting in Eram __________ RA fangirl.
Reservoir Dog Free Space Tech	Posted - 2006.12.17 14:37:00 - [50] Edited by: Reservoir Dog on 17/12/2006 14:37:54 Originally by: Arriadna It was a nice war. I hope that MC enjoy our meeting in Eram __________ RA fangirl. Basic alt posting rule - never say "our", "us", "me" and "we".
Vrizuh Eve Defence Force Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.12.17 14:39:00 - [51] Originally by: Reservoir Dog Edited by: Reservoir Dog on 17/12/2006 14:37:54 Originally by: Arriadna It was a nice war. I hope that MC enjoy our meeting in Eram __________ RA fangirl. Basic alt posting rule - never say "our", "us", "me" and "we". She said neither, plus, had a sig saying RA Fangirl. Doesn't that kind of make bias very overt? I needed more isk, so I took a risk. I mined some ore then fled once more. I'll return to the core to escape the war!
Choi Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.12.17 14:43:00 - [52] Originally by: Karmic TBH Choi yes it used to be about the raw isk damage you could do to a target this has changed and when it changed a lot of alliances that could not/would not evolve with the game collapsed or became "shadows" of there former selves. I guess I wasn't clear enough, im not talking damage to isk, im talking damage in any shape or form without taking more losses. Kill a pos with no losses?=win take an outpost with few losses?= win lock down the hostile entity's space with no losses?=win Those aren't ship kills but it is damage done. in the end the goal is to make them quite and leave which = win The other side of my point is you cant accomplish the above if you lose more than they do. Suddenly they are winning the war and are willing to put more time and effort into this conflict because they are confident they can win. Originally by: Karmic Now the long term game is about power (not to be confused with isk) which is strength of arms, economic or political. These are exerted to gain the trappings which usually go along with any kind of power. You dont get any of that by losing every fight your in Originally by: Karmic Now you didn't seem to get the Burn Eden example. So I will explain it abit better. The amount of damage that they could do to a well organised/large alliance is an annoyance at best, you commented that if the lost that many ships to NPC's over say a 2-4 week stretch then they should quit EVE. I put it to you that if they can't cope with the ammount of damage that a single/small group of corps can do over that same time period then they really need someone to come along and kick them back into empire. Sorry, im thinking of BS losses into the hundreds for any large alliance and burn eden. Now like I said, that many losses to npc's and you should re-evaluate which games you like to play. And tbh the only reason most of those alliances are out there is because of pos and whatnot. POS throws a wrench into the game in that now there is a cut off point where above this imaginary line you cant kick someone out, but in the end the same doctrine max damage minimum losses applies. Originally by: Karmic Anyway since you are showing such an interest the paperwork for your membership to the Official BOB... ISS... MC... CCP... (please delete as appropriate) Fanbwoi club is on its way out to you, also included is your complementary gift of a TII foil hat. No im not, in fact I wasnt addressing you in my first post, then you said I was wrong. I dont want your tinfoil hats and Im not a fanboi. Frankly your jaded, "im too good for you" childish attitude just makes you look silly.
Reservoir Dog Free Space Tech	Posted - 2006.12.17 14:46:00 - [53] Originally by: Vrizuh She said neither, plus, had a sig saying RA Fangirl. Doesn't that kind of make bias very overt? Not going to go into discussion with you. Because i know what he meant while you do not have a clue.
Aterna Minmatar M'8'S	Posted - 2006.12.17 14:58:00 - [54] Originally by: Waagaa Ktlehr Edited by: Waagaa Ktlehr on 17/12/2006 04:32:32 Originally by: Aterna Efficiency wouldn't be so hard to gauge if everyone was paying the same amount for the same ship. No doubt an alliance like BoB or ASCN has access to many different T2 and T1 BPOs that they use to manufacture replacements, whereas newer corporations and alliances won't have that industrial edge. Opportunity cost anyone? A 250m HAC loss is a 250m HAC loss regardless of how you are able to get the HAC. When you lose a HAC in both situations, you lose 250m, either: - 250m to replace the lost HAC - 250m less from HAC sales, because you take a HAC from the sales hangar The only way this would fly is if you actually have a supplier that gives you a discount that isn't inside your organization. Originally by: Aterna Efficiency does have its uses, especially for a mercenary organization. The less losses they take, the more profit they generate from the contract cash and bonus. Funny. :) I think our members have cheaper access to most HACs than ASCN members have. :)) Exactly my point. When you lose a HAC, it costs you less to replace then it does another alliance. So, unless all parties involved in a conflict are buying ships at the same cost, it is very hard to gauge how much ISK damage they have sustained. This becomes more extreme the higher up the tech scale, and Capital ships are especially expensive for alliances that can't produce them internally. Next, are T2 modules. How many alliances are known to be able to produce a full suite of T2 items for all ships? very few I would wager. Those that are, can replace lost T2 gear cheaper then an alliance that has to buy them externally. Even when buying in bulk you can't possibly acquire T2 gear as cheaply as someone who produces their own. To sum it up: Were I to shoot a BoB ship, i can bet that the ship and nearly everything fitted to it was produced or supplied internally. Whereas If i pop some pirate in empire, I can bet that he bought his ship and T2 gear in Jita. Who did it cost more? The pirate in empire, because he had to pay out the ass for new gear, whereas the BoB guy got it for a reduced price, or even free if that's how they do it. Efficiency vs an entity varies wildly from one organization to another. - - -
Darkstar BP Caldari eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.12.17 18:59:00 - [55] For an outsider, it sounds like a good challenge to both sides. Have fun
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve	Posted - 2006.12.17 21:26:00 - [56] Originally by: Seleene Oh, and if we had a killboard with a 'Veldspar Rating' I think people would find a way to say, "OMG, you guys used to mine so much and now you car teh sUx0rz!" But then you'd just recruit Chribba. Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
Coasterbrian Celestial Fleet Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.12.17 21:34:00 - [57] Only one question: Whose Titan? ---------- I say what I mean, but I don't always mean what I say.
Aeon Yakati Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.12.17 23:39:00 - [58] Edited by: Aeon Yakati on 17/12/2006 23:40:00 Originally by: Coasterbrian Only one question: Whose Titan? I don't know the context of your question, but the answer is probably nor yours.
UPS Man Ye Olde Sweet Shoppe	Posted - 2006.12.18 03:13:00 - [59] Efficiency is always going to be high when you operate in the manner MC does; a) Having small gangs camp gates in empire, hitting vulnerable wardec targets, b) Roving gank squads moving through target station/ratting/mining areas choosing when to engage and when to move on. Neither of these tactics provide much chance for the mark to inflict much in the way of damages on the mercs, as they're guarunteed to be outgunned each time. If Veritas/LV hired MC because of this, then the contract was obviously focused on disrupting enemy rank and file. This is where the mistake was made. When you're facing an opponent determined to conquer new territory in order to earn more income, inflicting occasional and easily absorbed losses across a large memberbase is only going to strengthen their resolve and make them fight on harder. MC have significant capital assets that could have been ordered to counter-attack or even force the enemy to regroup and reconsider their advance. Instead they had instructions be little more than a nuisance, and this misjudgement contributed to the loss of Scalding Pass.
Randay 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.12.18 03:39:00 - [60] killboard stats make your ***** bigger.
Mirasta Caldari Enigma Enterprises Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.12.18 11:03:00 - [61] Edited by: Mirasta on 18/12/2006 11:03:48 With Verone and Seleene in this thread, i cant see who can possibly win this thread. The person you should be asking if the contract was sucessfull is the client really, they are the only one that knows if they got what they paied for and im assuming MCs Client Saw the contract as a sucess.... Like crap the client cares how much the mercs lost, thats not there problem. Of couse, You are now reading my sig. Goon FC:"its a trap" "that thing is fully operational"
Vrizuh Eve Defence Force Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.12.18 12:00:00 - [62] Edited by: Vrizuh on 18/12/2006 12:01:59 I wish I could mine threads. Sadly I can't tank the rats. I needed more isk, so I took a risk. I mined some ore then fled once more. I'll return to the core to escape the war!
Wild Rho Amarr Black Omega Security	Posted - 2006.12.18 12:29:00 - [63] Efficiency is irrelevant so long as the objectives are met. As Captain Quiff said, K/D ratios are about epeen waving, that's all. I have the body of a supermodel. I just can't remember where I left it.

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