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Verity Sovereign
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
84
   |
Posted - 2011.12.10 03:29:00 -
[1] - Quote
The lore, slot layout and bonuses of Amarr ships make it quite clear that Amarr ships should armor tank, and Caldari ships should shield tank... both have ships with 5% resists to their respective tank style.
Minmatar often have their choice in tank, or have some ships that tank Armor, and some that tank Shield (example, Hurricane can do both, Typhoon is good with armor tank....), some are sort of forced into a shield tank style by a shield boost bonus.
Then we have the Gallente... quite a few of their ships have slot layout such that they could be fitted for decent shield tanks (with 4 meds and 3 rig slots, a decent shield tank can be made - which sometimes results in even Amarr ships shield tanking, such as Apocs/navy Apocs in incursions):
Brutix, Myrmidion, Dominix, Hyperion
Yet all these ships except the Dominix have this damn active rep bonus...
The slot layout gives you versatility/choices, but then the active rep bonus means if you want chose a different shield type, you throw away a bonus.
So pretty much all armor tank Gallente ships, and consider a shield tanked Domi to be a abberation.
Of course many people feel that Active rep bonuses aren't that useful (especialyl for anything other than solo work), and are subpar compared to % resist bonuses that increase buffer and effective rep rate.
On top of this, they shoehorn the best candidates for Gallente shield tankers into the armor tank role - although when it comes to incursions, this goes out the window as local rep isnt used, and I often see shield tanked Hyperions and sometimes megas LFSF.
I also often hear of Shield Brutix fits for PvP.
My suggestion is to get rid of these armor rep bonuses (and the shield boost bonus on the Minmatar Cyclone, Claymore, and Mael), and replace it with another bonus, making the Gallente and Minmatar more variable when it comes to what they tank.
Perhaps give them a -5% cap recharge time bonus (and maybe a utlity high).
This higher cap regen aids them in active tank, or it can work to power a utility high, making the ship more versatilele (could power RRs, Cap drain, MWD, etc |
Pulgy
Spiritus Draconis
6
|
Posted - 2011.12.10 03:36:00 -
[2] - Quote
This has been discussed to death.
CCPs response? "We'll looking into it".
Monkeys writing-á Shakespeare?
That's like putting CCP in charge of game balance and content updates. |
Wylee Coyote
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
41
|
Posted - 2011.12.10 03:39:00 -
[3] - Quote
Just because a ship has a bonus for something, does NOT mean you have to utilize that bonus. I fly shield tanked Myrms, and I would love for the active armor rep bonus to be damn near anything else, however, I am not assinine enough to think that because I do not utilize the ship's armor rep bonus that noone else does either and call for it's change/removal. |
Emily Poast
The Whipping Post
41
|
Posted - 2011.12.10 03:58:00 -
[4] - Quote
Doing this would really hurt people who solo/small gang. And believe it or not, there are lots of people that do.
Leave those bonuses alone, IMHO, or make them better, but dont remove them. Certainly, many Gallente ships need their slots and/or ship bonuses looked at, but removing this particular bonus all-together removes alot of the Gallente 'flavor' that has been around for a long time.
Honestly, I would prefer it if the Gal ships mentioned (and you should probably include the Thorax too, because it often shield fit) could excel WITHOUT having to fit shields. Give armor tankers a less effective, but still viable armor-tank "speed" option that is all but necessary on blaster boats. Current armor rigs completly destroy speed for the blaster race that needs it the most. |
Cipher Jones
140
|
Posted - 2011.12.10 04:20:00 -
[5] - Quote
Train a Caldari blaster boat if you really wanna shield tank, its quite fun.
You might not want to train extra, but I can tell you this; Minmatar have it just as bad. You want a fully trained typhoon the train will take just as long as getting a Gallante pilot in a Rokh. Same with Cyclone/Ferox.
I understand what you mean about throwing away the bonus, its one of my pet peaves. But if you can get the desired effect then either do it or be all OCD and ****.
See what happens when fat neckbeards try to ride little ponies? The ponies die. |
Tanya Powers
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
456
|
Posted - 2011.12.10 05:44:00 -
[6] - Quote
Because it dies with class.
Active tanking is just lols to death for other thing than pve, even then you have at least 3 T1 riggs and 4 cap recharge mods.
Because armor buffer is good in gallente hulls the moment you can afford slaves, otherwise it's crap to fit when you compare with amarr and they r +5% resist so you have less effective slots, then you have to fit some dps mods.
Good luck with all that with current game environment.
Whenever you pick some gallente stuff, forget the pirate versions, you can always find in Amarr or Minmatar something doing the same job with a lot more flexibility and dmg projection.
Why do you keep wasting your time trying masochist tools you obviously don't like?
Cross train amarr or minmatar, have fun for once. |
Hamatitio
Aperture Harmonics
K162
33
|
Posted - 2011.12.10 06:10:00 -
[7] - Quote
They dont, they hull tank. |
Alara IonStorm
RvB - BLUE Republic
596
|
Posted - 2011.12.10 06:52:00 -
[8] - Quote
Change the speed penalty on Armor Rigs (Somethin the Devs are considering) and Gallente will become so much better.
|
Vachir Khan
TriSeq Defence Group
90
|
Posted - 2011.12.10 07:02:00 -
[9] - Quote
Wylee Coyote wrote:Just because a ship has a bonus for something, does NOT mean you have to utilize that bonus. I fly shield tanked Myrms, and I would love for the active armor rep bonus to be damn near anything else, however, I am not assinine enough to think that because I do not utilize the ship's armor rep bonus that noone else does either and call for it's change/removal.
A realistic attitude, I like that.
Excellence is not a skill, it's an attitude.
If MMORPG players were around when God said, "Let there be light" they'd have called the light gay and plunged the universe back into darkness by squatting their nutsacks over it. |
Noisrevbus
24
|
Posted - 2011.12.10 11:49:00 -
[10] - Quote
Vachir Khan wrote:Wylee Coyote wrote:Just because a ship has a bonus for something, does NOT mean you have to utilize that bonus. I fly shield tanked Myrms, and I would love for the active armor rep bonus to be damn near anything else, however, I am not assinine enough to think that because I do not utilize the ship's armor rep bonus that noone else does either and call for it's change/removal. A realistic attitude, I like that.
We should also add that people in this game has a tendency to call anything unorthodox "an abberation", which is quite amusing looking at how a game like EVE with all it's design options premier thinking out of the box. Most good concepts have been considered bad ideas at one point or another - even if design changes may also inforce them as well.
As for tanks and slot layouts, it's something that stem back to the conception of the game, to differentiate the races: Amarr was made to be heavy armor, Gallente light armor, Minmatar light shield and Caldari heavy shield. Next you have to look at how that play out in relation to mods, bonuses and gameplay. Armor in itself is heavy while Shield in itself is light. This has lead to Gallente and Caldari always being a bit quirky (further troubled by many ships with very nisched bonuses).
Gallente always had the paradox of being agile with armor tanks that make you less mobile, while Caldari always had the problem of never really having a larger tank unless the ship itself is bonused for it (which in effect leave many Minmatar ships tanking better thanks to speed, sig, resist-profile, fitting and slot layout; and by extension, all races tanking more or less equally when refit to shield - such as is the case with mobile Sniping platforms like the new tier 3 BC (while many key mods only fit in lowslots, such as fitting mods).
These differences mean intergration issues which, if we should be a very blunt just to clearly point out the argument, has meant that Caldari often only play well with other Caldari ships and Gallente's tanky options mostly do well in solo-small settings with active tanks. That Minmatar and Gallente have better options to cross-tank on the other hand - that is only an advantage! It's quite useful on alot of ships where the frigs draw alot of benefit from being able to MSE buffer better than many other frigs and the cheaper tech I stuff (Thorax, Brutix etc.) can be gank-fit to utilize bonuses and weapon system at discretion. |
Sadayiel
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
19
|
Posted - 2011.12.10 11:57:00 -
[11] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote:Change the speed penalty on Armor Rigs (Somethin the Devs are considering) and Gallente will become so much better.
The trouble it's not of the ship design but of the game evolution.
In the past armor tanking was a good choice, almost considered the Best, the only reason this has changed so much it's due game mechanics and changes.
When CCP introduced the shield/armor compensation skills the forums cried of pain under the Complains (specially Amarr players) of how inba it was run 3x EANM II and 1x dmg control for armor tanking making lasers obsolete.
The later deployed changes like the nano age (and it's current version) the HP boost wich CCP made that almost all ships had double Hp than before whitout buffing the dmg and some others led to the current day buffer tanks.
and TBH the only reason armor tank it's crappy it's because for the Nano mentality where almost all ships are aimed to be fast and maneurable to kite and dictate it's preferred range.
|
Naso Gomez
18
|
Posted - 2011.12.10 13:02:00 -
[12] - Quote
Tanya Powers wrote:Cross train amarr or minmatar, have fun for once.
Exactly what I'm doing, Minmatar sounds nice. |
Kesshisan
78
|
Posted - 2011.12.10 13:30:00 -
[13] - Quote
I put lasers on my Dominix. They are unbonused, but work just fine for my purpose.
Just because it's bonused, doesn't mean you have to use it. Just because you have it, doesn't mean it needs a bonus.
. |
Drew Solaert
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
12
|
Posted - 2011.12.10 13:41:00 -
[14] - Quote
I've always been a huge fan of the active armour rep bonus on the Brutix, Myrm and Hyperion and it has made them my 3 most loved ships for small gang PvP and has made those ships some of the most fun to fly. (Dual Rep Brutix with a Rack of Ions is just <3)
Yes speed is an issue but I don't want to see "Generic buffer tank" as the only option for Gallente and Blasters. If you want a shield blaster boat you have tons of options - Ferox, Naga and Rokh even the Moa, yes the damage isn't as great the but the 40-50% to optimal range from the ship bonus sure as hell helps. |
DarkAegix
Acetech Systems
520
|
Posted - 2011.12.10 14:22:00 -
[15] - Quote
Wylee Coyote wrote:Just because a ship has a bonus for something, does NOT mean you have to utilize that bonus. I fly shield tanked Myrms, and I would love for the active armor rep bonus to be damn near anything else, however, I am not assinine enough to think that because I do not utilize the ship's armor rep bonus that noone else does either and call for it's change/removal.
And yet, other races get bonuses which are always useful. Two damage bonuses on the Cane, for instance.
I love my Myrm's flexibility and active-rep fits, but I'd also like to see flexibility without ditching a bonus. That's why I love the Domi so much  |
Songbird
41
|
Posted - 2011.12.10 14:33:00 -
[16] - Quote
so I'm browsing incursion channel and I read this : proteus LFSF - for the noobs that stands for lesb..err I mean looking for shield fleet - sure enough I checked it out - it's a shield fit gallente t3 - lots of dps and even semi reasonable range due to TE's.
In fact all the amarr ships, which are supposed to be the armor ships are more commonly seen as shield config - legion and guardian being the exceptions - not that legion doesn't rock as a shield boat - it's just the last armor port in the shield storm :).
I better finish before someone drowns in my wet navy metaphors ... |
Orlacc
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
46
|
Posted - 2011.12.10 15:49:00 -
[17] - Quote
Verity always seems to want what she/he can't have. |
OninoTimmo
ElitistOps
Pandemic Legion
24
|
Posted - 2011.12.10 16:58:00 -
[18] - Quote
Agreed. I shield tank my Nyx. |
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
135
|
Posted - 2011.12.10 20:35:00 -
[19] - Quote
Verity Sovereign wrote:My suggestion is to get rid of these armor rep bonuses (and the shield boost bonus on the Minmatar Cyclone, Claymore, and Mael), and replace it with another bonus, making the Gallente and Minmatar more variable when it comes to what they tank.
Perhaps give them a -5% cap recharge time bonus (and maybe a utlity high).
This higher cap regen aids them in active tank, or it can work to power a utility high, making the ship more versatilele (could power RRs, Cap drain, MWD, etc
This, of course, is a horrible idea. Active armor ships might be niche, but they are very good under the right circumstances. Active shield tanks -- god, don't change a thing about those.
The beauty of these ships is that they really do have options. The active shield ships can easily fit a buffer instead. The active armor ships can do that, armor buffer, or shield buffer. And yes, that's a good thing, especially when all of these options have at least some appeal within the metagame. |
Buzzmong
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
47
|
Posted - 2011.12.10 23:03:00 -
[20] - Quote
Why must Gallente armour tank?
Because CCP designed them for hull tanking (hence, highest stucture values and mentions of it in the older lore), but decided part way through that hull tanking wasn't something they wanted to even go near, so decided to switch to armour.
Personally, for added flavour, I'd like to see hull tanking actually get a serious look in by CCP. Adding another viable method of tanking could be rather interesting. |
Cambarus
Clearly Compensating
52
|
Posted - 2011.12.10 23:53:00 -
[21] - Quote
Gallente need to armor tank because CCP decided that hull tanking should not be viable. If hull reps were as good as armor reps, and bulkheads didn't slow you down so much (and had variations similar to the armor plates/shield extenders) gallente would be perfect for hull tanking.
They have the right mix of mids and lows to do it.
They have the most hull HP.
We already have a race that armor tanks, one that shield tanks, and one that does a bit of everything (including speed/sig tank). |
Sebastian N Cain
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
30
|
Posted - 2011.12.11 02:23:00 -
[22] - Quote
Buzzmong wrote:Why must Gallente armour tank?
Because CCP designed them for hull tanking (hence, highest stucture values and mentions of it in the older lore), but decided part way through that hull tanking wasn't something they wanted to even go near, so decided to switch to armour.
Personally, for added flavour, I'd like to see hull tanking actually get a serious look in by CCP. Adding another viable method of tanking could be rather interesting.
Yes, we were hull tankers once, but then we took an arrow to the knee....
"You either need less science fiction or more medication."
"Or less medication and more ammo!" |
Hyrath Rotineque
Twilight Astro Miners
Vanguard Venture Alliance
4
|
Posted - 2011.12.11 03:08:00 -
[23] - Quote
Cambarus wrote:Gallente need to armor tank because CCP decided that hull tanking should not be viable. If hull reps were as good as armor reps, and bulkheads didn't slow you down so much (and had variations similar to the armor plates/shield extenders) gallente would be perfect for hull tanking.
They have the right mix of mids and lows to do it.
They have the most hull HP.
We already have a race that armor tanks, one that shield tanks, and one that does a bit of everything (including speed/sig tank).
Really liking the idea of a viable hull tank for Gallente ships. |
Verity Sovereign
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
87
|
Posted - 2011.12.11 04:13:00 -
[24] - Quote
Orlacc wrote:Verity always seems to want what she/he can't have.
Well, if you must know,
What I would really like is a shield tanking laser & drone armed ship that isn't slower than snot.
The Myrmidion gets pretty close except for its active rep bonus, and low speed.
Ie, Sansha with a bit more speed and a bit more drones.
(though I prefer the look of Amarr and Gallente ships)
ie for frigates something like a succubus with a 5 m3 drone bay (well I'd prefer 15, but I gotta be realistic) and +50 m/s speed.
Or even better something like a fed Navy comet with the gun bonuses of the Succubus with a 3/4/3 slot layout rather than a 3/3/4 layout.
Or a Vexor navy issue with a 5/6/3 (or 5/5/4) slot layout and laser instead of gun bonuses
Vigilant with 1 more mid, 1 less low, and laser not drone bonuses?
Phantasm with 1 more low, extra speed, and a larger drone bay (I think the Phantasm is the best looking of the Sansha ship).
I currently use the Nightmare the most, but its slow, and for a BS its got a small drone bay... |
Renge Ukyo
Point of No Return
Waterboard
5
|
Posted - 2011.12.15 11:24:00 -
[25] - Quote
Emily Poast wrote:
Honestly, I would prefer it if the Gal ships mentioned (and you should probably include the Thorax too, because it often shield fit) could excel WITHOUT having to fit shields. Give armor tankers a less effective, but still viable armor-tank "speed" option that is all but necessary on blaster boats. Current armor rigs completly destroy speed for the blaster race that needs it the most.
Finally, someone who understands speed is a prerequisite to close range brawling tactics. Armor and blasters do -not- go together. |
Opertone
Signal 7
The Jagged Alliance
52
|
Posted - 2011.12.15 15:25:00 -
[26] - Quote
Shield tanking and Engineering requires science.
Gallente don't have it, so their mechanics slap on another 1600 mm plating and multi layers of coatings. Gallente can't even design a CPU.
Their ship controls are simplified and autonomous drones handle it for captains. Gallente's selling point is fashion and cavalary - plated horses that charge and throw opponents to the ground.
Caldari's selling point is long range weapons combined with shielding in the light of lack of armor, e-war and tricks to foul gallente. |
dream3874
the unified
Negative Ten.
2
|
Posted - 2011.12.15 15:55:00 -
[27] - Quote
Real men hull tanki! But seriously ccp should consider hull tanking for Gellente it only make sense. |
Kahz Niverrah
We Are So Troubled Everyone Runs Screaming
Moar Tears
83
|
Posted - 2011.12.15 16:09:00 -
[28] - Quote
DarkAegix wrote:And yet, other races get bonuses which are always useful. Oh, you mean like laser cap usage bonus on the punisher, maller, prophecy and covert legion?
I don't always post on the forums, but when I do, I post with my main. |
Seizwell
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
3
|
Posted - 2011.12.15 16:12:00 -
[29] - Quote
I like the idea of hull tanking based on lore but it is extremely impractical. You get no safety net to realize your tank is failing, and you have an armour and a hull repair bill to pay if you are not using reppers. |
FlameGlow
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
23
|
Posted - 2011.12.15 16:26:00 -
[30] - Quote
Seizwell wrote:I like the idea of hull tanking based on lore but it is extremely impractical. You get no safety net to realize your tank is failing, and you have an armour and a hull repair bill to pay if you are not using reppers.
So basically you're saying it's for real men? |
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