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Virger	Posted - 2006.12.17 00:23:00 - [1] I'm talking straight t2 mods here. The demand for t2 items, such as the t2 425mm railgun, has greatly outstripped supply for some time now, not to mention the addition of more ships that use them. Which has brought the average price of them above 20 million. CCP, do you honestly believe it is acceptable to have to pay 140 million just to equip a megathron with t2 425mm rails? I do not. I remember when they used to go for 6m a pop and that was considered expensive.
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.12.17 00:26:00 - [2] It's only going to get worse with the current way the market's moving, as well. CCP have shown no willingness to make the necessary changes to reverse the trends being seen... and indeed contracts will accelerate them. //Maya
OBI WAN Dark Knights of Deneb Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.12.17 00:43:00 - [3] Well this is where invention is supposed to help out, although I don't think we will know how much it will affect prices until more people get involved with it. Also, most people may just hold onto their Research Points instead of investing them in Datacores, so when CCP release new Tech 2 BPOs they will have a chance of winning them. On the other hand, it allows people to run research agents and primarily sell the datacores. __________________________________________ Originally by: n sx Death to you and your sugar coated empire.
Amy Wang	Posted - 2006.12.17 00:46:00 - [4] If invention doesnt change something in the t2 market they need to tweak it to give better results so more people get involved with it. Could be some time until we see any effects though anyway.
Vasiliyan PAX Interstellar Services Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.12.17 00:47:00 - [5] There's been a reseeding of BPOs, which should help somewhat, although you'll have to wait a little while for them to come to market. T2 was never supposed to be cheap. One of these days some sort of worthwhile reverse engineering or invention system will be implemented that people can actually participate in...
Heikki Gallente Wreckless Abandon The UnAssociated	Posted - 2006.12.17 00:51:00 - [6] Originally by: Virger I'm talking straight t2 mods here You missed them reseeding about all T2 BPOs, which should increase the supply, and consequently limit the growth of the price. Anyway, instead of talking about individual item prices, how about describe what kind of game you want? One, where everyone trains for the same ship of the month, and uses exatcly same 'best' setup? Is there something fundamentally wrong in the idea of available ISK directing your choices? That is, if the 'best popular' setup costs too much, for god sakes, don't use/buy them. Some solutions to your problem might be: - Use 2nd best option, like a lot cheaper T2 350mm guns - Avoid training for ships everyone else thinks is best -> you can be sure the limited supply item for that choice will cost a lot - Buy one of the BPOs; you get to use the items at cost.. - Invest on the mods when they are cheap Or, if the item is just so damn good you have to use it, it is certainly worth the price, right? -Lasse loving the unique model of Eve
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.12.17 00:51:00 - [7] Edited by: Maya Rkell on 17/12/2006 00:51:34 Invention is expensive as heck...it's not going to be a cost soloution, but as things stand an accessability one. Vasiliyan, a LONG while. Because most of the new T2 BPO's will be sitting in the queue to research ME for a couple of months and then only get a couple of levels... (gee, another issue!) //Maya
OBI WAN Dark Knights of Deneb Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.12.17 00:51:00 - [8] Originally by: Vasiliyan There's been a reseeding of BPOs, which should help somewhat, although you'll have to wait a little while for them to come to market. T2 was never supposed to be cheap. One of these days some sort of worthwhile reverse engineering or invention system will be implemented that people can actually participate in... Only the BPOs that were destroyed or lost through other means have been re-seeded, which means that those modules which have ridiculous prices (T2 425mm, 1400mm etc) may not even have had new BPOs introduced. CCP must realise that with more and more people joining the game, and the fact that Tech 2 weapons are quickly becoming a requirement to participate in proper fleet vs fleet PvP, that prices will only increase more and more. And so we come back to invention being the hailed return to price normalisation. We can dream I guess. __________________________________________ Originally by: n sx Death to you and your sugar coated empire.
Majin82 Caldari g guild	Posted - 2006.12.17 01:33:00 - [9] The Problem is that the amount of people producing is far less then the demand for these Items, it's a Sellers market now! People want to have the T2 items and are willing to pay big for them, since they know the chance of getting more is limited. CCP needs to help this situation because it's never gonna get better, only worse! CCP you need to flood the market with T2 items (not just BPOs). Adding 10,000 425mm T2 rails for example, to the market would put demand lower since people could get them, then prices would fall. Invul. Fields II's are very limited out there, you have to put a buy order out the ass to get them. This needs a change. ------------------------------------- Proud member of G Guild!
Susa Ou	Posted - 2006.12.17 01:35:00 - [10] To add to all this is that demand is going up with the increacing subscription base too. Remember a year ago? well, we have grown 50% since then. I remember 10k was 'full' 2 years ago. . . now it never drops below that. Some people are getting fantastically rich here, and some of us are getting shafted. I have always belived that T2 BPOs should be seeded like all other BPOs and let the market decide what is going to happen, or at least let invention produce a BPO so that people can get into the market. As it stands, the T2 system is simply broken, and people are divided as to how to fix it.
Constorator	Posted - 2006.12.17 01:46:00 - [11] I agree Tech II should be seeded, but they should only put a set amount of them in each place they are sold, like, 10 of the racial item in the racial military/schools and only 2 of the racial BPOs in each of the racial military/schools. Racial would be Railguns, Launchers and Kinetic Drones are to Caldari as Blasters and all Drones are to Gallente as Launchers, Projectiles and Explosive Drones are to Minmatar as Lasers and EM drones are to Amarr... Also, still like Shield items in Caldari and Minmatar as Armor items in Gallente and Amarr...
El Yatta Mercenary Forces Exquisite Malevolance	Posted - 2006.12.17 01:54:00 - [12] Originally by: OBI WAN Originally by: Vasiliyan There's been a reseeding of BPOs, which should help somewhat, although you'll have to wait a little while for them to come to market. T2 was never supposed to be cheap. One of these days some sort of worthwhile reverse engineering or invention system will be implemented that people can actually participate in... Only the BPOs that were destroyed or lost through other means have been re-seeded, which means that those modules which have ridiculous prices (T2 425mm, 1400mm etc) may not even have had new BPOs introduced. CCP must realise that with more and more people joining the game, and the fact that Tech 2 weapons are quickly becoming a requirement to participate in proper fleet vs fleet PvP, that prices will only increase more and more. And so we come back to invention being the hailed return to price normalisation. We can dream I guess. From my looking at research agents it looked a lot more like a general reseed of ALL t2 bpos. ---\|\|---
OBI WAN Dark Knights of Deneb Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.12.17 02:30:00 - [13] Originally by: El Yatta Originally by: OBI WAN Originally by: Vasiliyan There's been a reseeding of BPOs, which should help somewhat, although you'll have to wait a little while for them to come to market. T2 was never supposed to be cheap. One of these days some sort of worthwhile reverse engineering or invention system will be implemented that people can actually participate in... Only the BPOs that were destroyed or lost through other means have been re-seeded, which means that those modules which have ridiculous prices (T2 425mm, 1400mm etc) may not even have had new BPOs introduced. CCP must realise that with more and more people joining the game, and the fact that Tech 2 weapons are quickly becoming a requirement to participate in proper fleet vs fleet PvP, that prices will only increase more and more. And so we come back to invention being the hailed return to price normalisation. We can dream I guess. From my looking at research agents it looked a lot more like a general reseed of ALL t2 bpos. Really? Damn. As time goes on I feel more and more stupid for not investing in at least a single R&D agent. Oh well! __________________________________________ Originally by: n sx Death to you and your sugar coated empire.
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.12.17 02:32:00 - [14] Yes, they've added a wave for pretty much everything. (I think they've missed some of the really low-return ones) //Maya
OBI WAN Dark Knights of Deneb Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.12.17 02:37:00 - [15] So are they only planning on doing this once, or are there any ideas to release new waves of T2 BPOs every x months? Also, this thread should really be moved to market discussion or some other appropriate forum. __________________________________________ Originally by: n sx Death to you and your sugar coated empire.
Vasiliyan PAX Interstellar Services Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.12.17 03:00:00 - [16] Originally by: Majin82 CCP you need to flood the market with T2 items (not just BPOs). Adding 10,000 425mm T2 rails for example, to the market would put demand lower since people could get them, then prices would fall. CCP needs to leave the player driven market the hell alone, since it's a signifigant part of the game for a lot of players. You've not provided a reason for CCP giving you cheap stuff, you're just demanding it ...
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve	Posted - 2006.12.17 03:08:00 - [17] Originally by: Virger I'm talking straight t2 mods here. The demand for t2 items, such as the t2 425mm railgun, has greatly outstripped supply for some time now, not to mention the addition of more ships that use them. Which has brought the average price of them above 20 million. CCP, do you honestly believe it is acceptable to have to pay 140 million just to equip a megathron with t2 425mm rails? I do not. I remember when they used to go for 6m a pop and that was considered expensive. You're complaining that T2 fittings cost more than a T1 ship? Do you happen to see the flaw in your logic? Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve	Posted - 2006.12.17 03:09:00 - [18] Originally by: Majin82 The Problem is that the amount of people producing is far less then the demand for these Items, it's a Sellers market now! People want to have the T2 items and are willing to pay big for them, since they know the chance of getting more is limited. CCP needs to help this situation because it's never gonna get better, only worse! CCP you need to flood the market with T2 items (not just BPOs). Adding 10,000 425mm T2 rails for example, to the market would put demand lower since people could get them, then prices would fall. Invul. Fields II's are very limited out there, you have to put a buy order out the ass to get them. This needs a change. If CCP puts 10,000 425mm IIs on the market, a handful of rich players are going to buy every last one of them and then resell at current prices. Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
Constorator	Posted - 2006.12.17 03:10:00 - [19] Edited by: Constorator on 17/12/2006 03:10:29 ---
maarud Einherjar Incorporated Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.17 03:13:00 - [20] Originally by: Vasiliyan T2 was never supposed to be cheap. I'm sick and tired of hearing that excuse. Oveur himself said, "perhaps it's time T2 became the norm", when talking about invention in a blog or post. I'm sorry, but "the norm" is not 140mil for 7 turrets Maarud. Proudly a Ex-BYDI member
OBI WAN Dark Knights of Deneb Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.12.17 03:15:00 - [21] CCP has given the playerbase the tools to create all T2 modules that exist in game so far with invention. Unfortunately the implementation of this solution doesn't appear to have been very well done, and as such will need some tweaking. Give it time people, once more players get involved with invention CCP hopefully should make it more worthwhile. __________________________________________ Originally by: n sx Death to you and your sugar coated empire.
Ishmael Hansen No Quarter.	Posted - 2006.12.17 04:08:00 - [22] Edited by: Ishmael Hansen on 17/12/2006 04:08:59 Originally by: Vasiliyan T2 was never supposed to be cheap. IF YOU OWN A TECH 2 BPO Do you think it's fair that you can provide a whole alliance with the mentioned 425mm II at around 1m or whatever is the prodution cost while everyone else has to pay 20m+. WITHOUT having any work to aquire the bpo. If you had to fight, mine, explore, etc for it, yeah i would be fair, not this way. The lotery was a bad idea, but even the lotery wasn't fair, it was borked, what are the odds of a player getting 5+ bpos? Do the math. I'm sick and tired of the tech 2 lobby, even worst then the inty one, and CCP doesn't even comment. Every patch they throw sand at our eyes about a r&d fix, been waiting for 2 years now.
OBI WAN Dark Knights of Deneb Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.12.17 04:14:00 - [23] Sadly it's a case of "it's too late now". If CCP decide the lottery was a bad idea then they can't just remove all existing BPOs as people would complain. Since they can't bring the T2 to the people, they need to bring the people to T2, and invention was their idea. I just wish it was a better one! I honestly think the ideal solution would be to allow your average Joe access to T2 BPOs through means of a long and testing research project. Say to obtain this BPO you needed to collect items from 0.0, rare exploration sites and other such things that would take at least 2 months to fully obtain. This way, people can embark on a long and arduous journey to obtain a T2 BPO and feel decently rewarded at the end of it all, and it would allow for the T2 market to become... reasonable. Sure, existing T2 BPO owners would whine, but what did you do to really EARN your BPO? __________________________________________ Originally by: n sx Death to you and your sugar coated empire.
Audri Fisher Caldari The Keep THE R0CK	Posted - 2006.12.17 04:28:00 - [24] One of the problems is tech II items that everybody wants. Take the 425mm rails for instance. two races use them, but there aren't 2x the 425mm tech II bpo's out there compared to tach's. Cap charger II's are even worse. same with ean II's, 3 races use those. I would love to know why tech II invulns are so high though, very few people shield tank in pvp, and mission running doesn't have near the turnover that pvp does.
Maeltstome	Posted - 2006.12.17 04:50:00 - [25] Stop moaning at CCP. They provide you with a huge universe to do with as you see fit (albeit within vertain non-cheating or abusive parameters). Sadly even in our universe, monopolising of the market and overcharging happens, so in eve it has to be possible too. If you dont like the price of T2 items, dont buy them - i see this post every other week with a new name and the same content.
OBI WAN Dark Knights of Deneb Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.12.17 05:51:00 - [26] Originally by: Maeltstome Stop moaning at CCP. They provide you with a huge universe to do with as you see fit (albeit within vertain non-cheating or abusive parameters). Sadly even in our universe, monopolising of the market and overcharging happens, so in eve it has to be possible too. If you dont like the price of T2 items, dont buy them - i see this post every other week with a new name and the same content. It's not a case of "don't like, don't buy", Tech 2 long range weaponry is REQUIRED for fleet vs fleet PvP. __________________________________________ Originally by: n sx Death to you and your sugar coated empire.
Lenaria Caldari Draconis Navitas Aeterna	Posted - 2006.12.17 08:12:00 - [27] Originally by: Maeltstome Stop moaning at CCP. They provide you with a huge universe to do with as you see fit (albeit within vertain non-cheating or abusive parameters). Sadly even in our universe, monopolising of the market and overcharging happens, so in eve it has to be possible too. If you dont like the price of T2 items, dont buy them - i see this post every other week with a new name and the same content. Sadly, T2 monopoly is ARTIFICAL restriction to free market. As such, it should be changed. At least CCP started to move in the right direction with the Kali.
Risien Drogonne	Posted - 2006.12.17 09:25:00 - [28] Originally by: Vasiliyan There's been a reseeding of BPOs, which should help somewhat, although you'll have to wait a little while for them to come to market. T2 was never supposed to be cheap. You know, I don't see anyone asking for cheap. What I see is people asking that it cost less than 50 times the manufacturing prices.
Risien Drogonne	Posted - 2006.12.17 09:28:00 - [29] Originally by: Vasiliyan Originally by: Majin82 CCP you need to flood the market with T2 items (not just BPOs). Adding 10,000 425mm T2 rails for example, to the market would put demand lower since people could get them, then prices would fall. CCP needs to leave the player driven market the hell alone, since it's a signifigant part of the game for a lot of players. You've not provided a reason for CCP giving you cheap stuff, you're just demanding it ... Oh, go back to your bridge, troll.
Risien Drogonne	Posted - 2006.12.17 09:40:00 - [30] Edited by: Risien Drogonne on 17/12/2006 09:41:32 Originally by: Laboratus They are not that cheap to manufacture either. And the manufacturing infrastructure that goes into making one part is kinda depressing. If you don't belive me just look at the bpos and go through the manufacturing process step by step all the way from the T2 component parts, through the advanced materials, down to the moon minerals and think about how many poses, ice miners haulers etc are present and involved in the manufacturing chain. They are expensinve for a reason. It drives a whole industry. And there isn't really as much air in those prices as there are in real world ones Don't try to bull****. Everyone knows they don't cost anywhere near 20 million isk to make. The materials involved aren't exactly top-secret. Nice try, tho. Ok maybe not. It was a pretty tired excuse. Hey, I tell you what... Feel free to give me a 425mm rail II BPO since it's just so much trouble to manufacture and you feel so overworked.
Ishmael Hansen No Quarter.	Posted - 2006.12.17 11:04:00 - [31] Originally by: Risien Drogonne Edited by: Risien Drogonne on 17/12/2006 09:41:32 Originally by: Laboratus They are not that cheap to manufacture either. And the manufacturing infrastructure that goes into making one part is kinda depressing. If you don't belive me just look at the bpos and go through the manufacturing process step by step all the way from the T2 component parts, through the advanced materials, down to the moon minerals and think about how many poses, ice miners haulers etc are present and involved in the manufacturing chain. They are expensinve for a reason. It drives a whole industry. And there isn't really as much air in those prices as there are in real world ones Don't try to bull****. Everyone knows they don't cost anywhere near 20 million isk to make. The materials involved aren't exactly top-secret. Nice try, tho. Ok maybe not. It was a pretty tired excuse. Hey, I tell you what... Feel free to give me a 425mm rail II BPO since it's just so much trouble to manufacture and you feel so overworked. Signed, feel free to throw me a hac bpo or large tech 2 gun, even a sensor booster bpo if you think they just a pain in the ass to build.
Terraform Gallente	Posted - 2006.12.17 11:13:00 - [32] Agree 100% with the post. Tech II items are too expensive and have been for since they got into the game. The fact that CCP claims that invention will be the great savior is just faulty at best since at the moment, the time required versus the benefit is very small. They really need to come up with a solution, it is NOT our job to make things equal, people are WAY too greedy for that. If anyone thinks i'm wrong they should try looking at the "baseprice" CCP made for the items and compare them to the marketprice, the increase is about 1200% for most items.... unacceptable! More power to the little people, less power to the monopoly that is Tech II modules!! I hereby remove my sig, sigs are evil, sigs are the devil and i suck at drawing...
Stamm Amarr Three Holdings Rule of Three	Posted - 2006.12.17 11:24:00 - [33] CCP have fixed the T2 problem. Right now people are inventing the highest profit items. When the prices of those drop below the prices of other things, they will switch, and eventually, allowing for a small amount of deviation, people will invent what gives the most profit, and as a result T2 items and ships will all cost a certain %age of build cost. Why aren't we seeing it yet? Because people aren't used to invention yet, invention isn't going on at the rate it eventually will. Because there's still unsatisfied demand at higher prices, when that demand is satisfied prices will slowly fall. Demand will increase though as prices fall. Vagabonds that used to cost 220mil, when they drop to 150mil more people will buy them, and when (if) they drop to 50mil then you can be pretty sure nobody will be in a rupture any more :P All CCP need to do now is wait to see what invention does to the market when it settles down, and if it's not having enough of an effect they'll drop the difficulty/time/cost involved. They now have the tools they need to micromanage invention and in turn affect the T2 market. So we should show a bit of patience and see what the end result is. CCP have indicated in the past that the current T2 market isn't what was intended. Here's an example of how it'll work. Let's assume the market consists of 3 modules, and only 3 modules. Nothing else. Cap recharger II Energised adaptive nanomembrane II Heat Sink II And the prices are CR2 - 20mil EAN2 - 10mil HS2 - 1mil Let's also assume for simplicity that they all take the same effort to invent and the same resources to build. Let's assume I'm the only inventor in the game, and I can invent a LOT. What am I going to invent? CR2s. Lots of em, and nothing else. So one month later the prices are. The price for CR2s has dropped because I'm selling lots to the market now. CR2 - 9mil EAN2 - 10mil HS2 - 1mil So what do I do? I lay off production of CR2s a bit, still produce some, and focus on EAN2s. One month later CR2 - 5mil EAN2 - 5mil HS2 - 1mil So I keep up producing, adjusting volumes so I get the maximum profit, and very much later it goes to CR2 - 800K EAN2 - 800K HS2 - 1mil At that point I start producting HS2 as well, and eventually the market will settle down. Hopefully it'll stabilise at. CR2 - 200K EAN2 - 200K HS2 - 200K This will take x amount of time to happen, y amount of people inventing, and z difficulty of invention. We can all wait for X. Y will fluctuate, but since Z can be changed eventually with a bit of tinkering from CCP we can get the end result that they want.
Terraform Gallente	Posted - 2006.12.17 11:31:00 - [34] Edited by: Terraform on 17/12/2006 11:31:39 [edited for readability] Stamm, that is a very nice thing to be hoping for, but people are way too clever and greedy to let something like what you described happen. Most of the great producers are manipulating the market to get max income rather than trying to level out the market and bring the prices down a bit. And who can blame them? they make loads of money and as it stands right now it's like holding the same winning ticket in a neverending lottery... you just can't lose unless something goes horribly wrong... I hereby remove my sig, sigs are evil, sigs are the devil and i suck at drawing...
Stamm Amarr Three Holdings Rule of Three	Posted - 2006.12.17 11:36:00 - [35] Originally by: Terraform Edited by: Terraform on 17/12/2006 11:31:39 [edited for readability] Stamm, that is a very nice thing to be hoping for, but people are way too clever and greedy to let something like what you described happen. Most of the great producers are manipulating the market to get max income rather than trying to level out the market and bring the prices down a bit. And who can blame them? they make loads of money and as it stands right now it's like holding the same winning ticket in a neverending lottery... you just can't lose unless something goes horribly wrong... Yep, invention absolutely prevents market manipulation though. There's effectively an infinate amount of people inventing, and they will always go for the highest profit item. Because of that it'll follow the scheme I suggested. You'll invent cap recharger IIs until they are no longer the highest profit item around, and then switch to something else. Likewise nobody will invent sacriledges because they'll all be inventing vagabonds until the vagabond market has sunk. IF CCP balance invention out so that it's possible for this to happen, nobody will be able to manipulate the market.
Thor Xian Vertigo One E.A.R.T.H. Federation	Posted - 2006.12.17 11:47:00 - [36] So the popular stuff is expensive as hell? Good, makes me happier when I kill you with my unpopular cheap t2. ~Thor Xian, Material Defender "For all your Material Needs, Vertigo One." Corp/Alliance Services
Mr Bondy Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.12.17 11:52:00 - [37] Id create a post with my idea but i really dont think we need another one about the T2 market... Why not put T2 BPC's on the market Before you start getting the flamethrowers out take a while to consider the possibilities. Make the BPC cost 5-10 times the base production price of the item, in this way the T2 producers still get a healthy profit, but not insane 250mil HAC's and the like. To me it seems a fair balence between T1 and T2 bpo distribution
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.12.17 11:59:00 - [38] Originally by: Mr Bondy Id create a post with my idea but i really dont think we need another one about the T2 market... Why not put T2 BPC's on the market Before you start getting the flamethrowers out take a while to consider the possibilities. Make the BPC cost 5-10 times the base production price of the item, in this way the T2 producers still get a healthy profit, but not insane 250mil HAC's and the like. To me it seems a fair balence between T1 and T2 bpo distribution HAC's cost about 20-25 million isk to produce. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Rhamnousia Caldari Templars of Light Eternal Rangers of Terror	Posted - 2006.12.17 12:09:00 - [39] This is not a whine post, this is just stating the fact. You are struggling to make isk = life's easier with a T2 BPO You are broke = life's easier with a T2 BPO You go broke fitting t2 mods for PvP = life's easier with a T2 BPO You struggling to keep the wallet "above water" = life's easier with a T2 BPO those are facts, and most players know it. CCP knows it. But nothing has been done so far. Problm is that Invention is supposed to make T2 items more accessible, true, it will hav that effect long as ppl actually "doing it" ... as the current state, ppl are still saving RP hoping to get a T2 BPO, so there's no/little invention goin on atm. ppl known for having 5-6 T2 BPO aren't because they win all those lottery, it's coz they use the ISK generate from 1 BPO to buy other BPO. so the lottery aren't exactly "that" borked. it just isn't fair for the mass that the demand is soo high and the supply is extrememly limited (understatement of the millenium). But since making t2 BPO available to the mass is out of question, due to the fact that would cause mass deflatation (isn't this the point?) and increase isk-value quite sumwhat. the idea of T2 BPO lottery is making them "unfarmable" ... like agent offers, or static deadspace complexes. but only a selected fews hav access to vast amount of isk by doin nothing but praying to gods everyday (and in cases, get extremely lucky) aren't gonna help the economic. i dont hav any idea to suggest, but i agree with OP that it's time sumthing has to be done. maybe a small tweak in invention that might change the current situation of "hoping for t2 BPO instead of invent T2 BPC" ... --------------------------------------- - yes, im a noob - yes, im a nut job - no, i dont give a .... about what u think of my noobness - now, tell me sumthing i dont know
Olev	Posted - 2006.12.17 12:19:00 - [40] prices on T2 are going down so stop the ******* moaning.. about 2 weeks ago agood vaga price was 320 mill, now its 200mill.. if u dont think a T2 1400mm is not worth 15,dont buy the bloody thing! if u dont think ur mega is worth T2 gunns..then use T1 next thing will be that ppl are moaning about that officer loot is so expansive.. wahh! a officer PDU to 2bill
Molly Neuro	Posted - 2006.12.17 12:26:00 - [41] Originally by: Stamm Originally by: Terraform Edited by: Terraform on 17/12/2006 11:31:39 [edited for readability] Stamm, that is a very nice thing to be hoping for, but people are way too clever and greedy to let something like what you described happen. Most of the great producers are manipulating the market to get max income rather than trying to level out the market and bring the prices down a bit. And who can blame them? they make loads of money and as it stands right now it's like holding the same winning ticket in a neverending lottery... you just can't lose unless something goes horribly wrong... Yep, invention absolutely prevents market manipulation though. There's effectively an infinate amount of people inventing, and they will always go for the highest profit item. snip I don't think this is the case - and it won't be Have you seen the requirements for invention? Getting hold of a data interface is almost impossible at the moment and considering the build requirements and rareity of the bpc's for interfaces it will be a long time before even a small number of people are doing any invention. Added to which is the lack of clarity about what you actually end up with and the chances of even suceeding to invent anything at all. I agree that eventually invention may be useful but at the current drop rate of interfaces it's unlikely to have much of an impact - considering the difficulty and expense associated with invention it's not going to be T2 on a budget.
ScreamingLord Sutch Hand in Mouth	Posted - 2006.12.17 12:27:00 - [42] The reseeding will correct this to an extent, just give it time. 425 t2's cost about 115mill for a set. Not 140. Pedantic I know but I'm a stickler for accuracy (The ave price is not above 20mill)
ScreamingLord Sutch Hand in Mouth	Posted - 2006.12.17 12:34:00 - [43] Originally by: Laboratus They are not that cheap to manufacture either. And the manufacturing infrastructure that goes into making one part is kinda depressing. If you don't belive me just look at the bpos and go through the manufacturing process step by step all the way from the T2 component parts, through the advanced materials, down to the moon minerals and think about how many poses, ice miners haulers etc are present and involved in the manufacturing chain. They are expensinve for a reason. It drives a whole industry. And there isn't really as much air in those prices as there are in real world ones P.S. For the record, I don't have anything to do with T2 production. Thought about making advanced materials once. The initial investment would have required 4 Bill, with 1 bill monthly costs, so I thought bugger that. I'm way too poor. You try to explain why they are expensive and then qualify it with an excuse about your lack of experience. The rails cost about 2mill to make. You can make 91 a week in a POS and sell them for 16mill comfortably. They use 1 t2 component to make (superconductor rails) which are stupidly easy to make (fullerides and titanium carbonide) - both of which are available in large quantities off the market. So in short, I call bull**** on your post
Mephistophilus	Posted - 2006.12.17 12:36:00 - [44] Originally by: Malthros Zenobia Originally by: Virger I'm talking straight t2 mods here. The demand for t2 items, such as the t2 425mm railgun, has greatly outstripped supply for some time now, not to mention the addition of more ships that use them. Which has brought the average price of them above 20 million. CCP, do you honestly believe it is acceptable to have to pay 140 million just to equip a megathron with t2 425mm rails? I do not. I remember when they used to go for 6m a pop and that was considered expensive. You're complaining that T2 fittings cost more than a T1 ship? Do you happen to see the flaw in your logic? do you see any tech 2 battleships out there?
Laboratus Gallente BGG	Posted - 2006.12.17 18:18:00 - [45] Originally by: Risien Drogonne Edited by: Risien Drogonne on 17/12/2006 09:41:32 Originally by: Laboratus They are not that cheap to manufacture either. And the manufacturing infrastructure that goes into making one part is kinda depressing. If you don't belive me just look at the bpos and go through the manufacturing process step by step all the way from the T2 component parts, through the advanced materials, down to the moon minerals and think about how many poses, ice miners haulers etc are present and involved in the manufacturing chain. They are expensinve for a reason. It drives a whole industry. And there isn't really as much air in those prices as there are in real world ones Don't try to bull****. Everyone knows they don't cost anywhere near 20 million isk to make. The materials involved aren't exactly top-secret. Nice try, tho. Ok maybe not. It was a pretty tired excuse. Hey, I tell you what... Feel free to give me a 425mm rail II BPO since it's just so much trouble to manufacture and you feel so overworked. Do the math... ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats
Laboratus Gallente BGG	Posted - 2006.12.17 18:29:00 - [46] Originally by: ScreamingLord Sutch Originally by: Laboratus They are not that cheap to manufacture either. And the manufacturing infrastructure that goes into making one part is kinda depressing. If you don't belive me just look at the bpos and go through the manufacturing process step by step all the way from the T2 component parts, through the advanced materials, down to the moon minerals and think about how many poses, ice miners haulers etc are present and involved in the manufacturing chain. They are expensinve for a reason. It drives a whole industry. And there isn't really as much air in those prices as there are in real world ones P.S. For the record, I don't have anything to do with T2 production. Thought about making advanced materials once. The initial investment would have required 4 Bill, with 1 bill monthly costs, so I thought bugger that. I'm way too poor. You try to explain why they are expensive and then qualify it with an excuse about your lack of experience. The rails cost about 2mill to make. You can make 91 a week in a POS and sell them for 16mill comfortably. They use 1 t2 component to make (superconductor rails) which are stupidly easy to make (fullerides and titanium carbonide) - both of which are available in large quantities off the market. So in short, I call bull**** on your post I'm not saying there isn't profit margin. Always is. But the supply/demand ratio is absurd. Especially in times of large scale conflict, say now, everyone needs one, while have, what 20 suppliers? It is to be expected. And the Ad Hominem on your post tells more of you than I ever needed to know ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats
HankMurphy Pelennor Swarm Eternal Rangers of Terror	Posted - 2006.12.17 19:02:00 - [47] Capitalism is great. Its the essence of an open market and a major mechanic of the game. However, as with any system, there must be checks and balances or human nature will exploit and destroy said system (see also: enron, adelpha, <insert example of uncontrolled capitalism here>) Now, while I despise the greediest of the greedy out there, both those that simply charge as high as they can, or those alliances that would go around to corner the market, they are simply playing the cards they were dealt.... which unfortunately is a much better hand than 95% of everyone else will recieve. CCP intends this? I would have said no once upon a time, but i'm pretty sure they do. If they wanted to lower teh T2 market they would. They would release BPC's and few BPO's keeping the money printing machines (bpo's) intact, but controlling the prices to something in the range of 1/2 what we look at now (still not insurable but what the hell) So, to answer the OPs question on the behalf of CCP (as they wouldn't touch this thread w/ a 10ft pole and if they did they would not begin to actually comment on resolution)... YES, it is intended. The little guy has to play the game more to achieve the simplest goals (a T2 ratting ship, a HAC for small gang, whatever) and the big guys get super rich and buy things you will covet and keep working towards. Too bad everytime you lose a ship that has T2 parts your taking one step forward and three steps backwards. Situation normal, all fracked up.
Vasiliyan PAX Interstellar Services Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.12.17 19:06:00 - [48] Originally by: Risien Drogonne Originally by: Vasiliyan There's been a reseeding of BPOs, which should help somewhat, although you'll have to wait a little while for them to come to market. T2 was never supposed to be cheap. You know, I don't see anyone asking for cheap. What I see is people asking that it cost less than 50 times the manufacturing prices. So you'd be happy if the build requirements were increased by 50x? That would solve your objection?
HankMurphy Pelennor Swarm Eternal Rangers of Terror	Posted - 2006.12.17 19:11:00 - [49] Originally by: Vasiliyan Originally by: Risien Drogonne Originally by: Vasiliyan There's been a reseeding of BPOs, which should help somewhat, although you'll have to wait a little while for them to come to market. T2 was never supposed to be cheap. You know, I don't see anyone asking for cheap. What I see is people asking that it cost less than 50 times the manufacturing prices. So you'd be happy if the build requirements were increased by 50x? That would solve your objection? Now I'm starting to smell a solution!
Risien Drogonne	Posted - 2006.12.17 21:15:00 - [50] Originally by: Vasiliyan Originally by: Risien Drogonne Originally by: Vasiliyan There's been a reseeding of BPOs, which should help somewhat, although you'll have to wait a little while for them to come to market. T2 was never supposed to be cheap. You know, I don't see anyone asking for cheap. What I see is people asking that it cost less than 50 times the manufacturing prices. So you'd be happy if the build requirements were increased by 50x? That would solve your objection? That'd make everyone unhappy. I'd be happy to see more competition (you know, like an actual free market) in the form of 100 times more BPOs.
HankMurphy Pelennor Swarm Eternal Rangers of Terror	Posted - 2006.12.17 22:12:00 - [51] Edited by: HankMurphy on 17/12/2006 22:13:51 Originally by: Risien Drogonne Originally by: Vasiliyan Originally by: Risien Drogonne Originally by: Vasiliyan There's been a reseeding of BPOs, which should help somewhat, although you'll have to wait a little while for them to come to market. T2 was never supposed to be cheap. You know, I don't see anyone asking for cheap. What I see is people asking that it cost less than 50 times the manufacturing prices. So you'd be happy if the build requirements were increased by 50x? That would solve your objection? That'd make everyone unhappy. I'd be happy to see more competition (you know, like an actual free market) in the form of 100 times more BPOs. Well, in RL if you have a patent its only yours before so long. If its viewed as a major component in quality of life (such as pharmacuticals) you only get like a year or something before generics can be produced. Either way, you are correct. I have stated time and time again, why the hell do one or two (or 10, the number doesn't matter) get lucky ONCE in a lottery and be set for life. Why don't agents give out massive/variable run BPCs instead? You get real lucky you may get a 50 run vagabond BPC or whatever! Not so lucky? Maybe a half dozen (enough to sell a couple for good profit, (like half a billion!) and a few runs left for you or your buddies for combat. More lotteries and a more fair system. Wealth is better distributed across player base. No cornering of the market, no free meal ticket for life. Would give more ppl a reason to get into research w/ expectations of tangible results in teh near future (not once every couple years). BPOs are money printing machines at the moment, and its just rediculous. Yet another aspect of the game poorly implemented.... that is to say, if the whole system (downsides and all) aren't intentional to begin w/ (thats teh tinfoil hat signal! get em on!) SNAFU again. Great ideas, great game, great potental, but the seem to be tripping over their own shoe laces a little too much. Perhaps they need to create a new position in teh development department? Common Sense Director?
Maeltstome	Posted - 2006.12.17 23:23:00 - [52] Originally by: HankMurphy Why don't agents give out massive/variable run BPCs instead? You get real lucky you may get a 50 run vagabond BPC or whatever! Not so lucky? Maybe a half dozen (enough to sell a couple for good profit, (like half a billion!) and a few runs left for you or your buddies for combat. This is the best idea i've heard yet... If the 20 BPO's existed and you still have random BPC's being handed out, the market price would tumble imo. Simply because BPO owners would have more competition. Good thinking.
Buzzmong Gallente Raptus Regaliter Pride - Honor - Duty	Posted - 2006.12.17 23:25:00 - [53] Edited by: Buzzmong on 17/12/2006 23:26:40 Edited by: Buzzmong on 17/12/2006 23:26:29 Edit: expansion on ideas. To be fair, the agents should be capitalised on, I mean, look at inties and AF's, you CAN get them from agent running (either you get bpc's, or fully built ships), at least on the ship front they should expand it. If gal navy agents give you taranis's at about 10k lp and cost you a couple of mil to build (or is it 15k lp?), why cant they just give out other ships as you gather more lp and standing, I wouldnt object to them giving out bpcs or ships when getting 100k lp or so for cruiser sized ships (or say 50k but it will cost you the base ship + building materials), at least it makes them more available, if only a little bit, and would mean you have other options available outside of buying for market price, plus it would get a few more on the market anyway). They could also give out other modules, perhaps depending on type of agents, say courier offering cargohold/nanofibers bpc/items etc. Or the mining ones offering mining drones/lasers. At least by this method you'd be sacrificing time (and some isk maybe) to get the mods, rather then just being given (or buying) a way to print an infinite amount of isk. --------------------------------- Member of Raptus Regaliter
Viktor Fyretracker Caldari Worms Corp	Posted - 2006.12.17 23:32:00 - [54] honestly i used to think mods being worth more then the ship was silly then i looked at the real world Navy, if you broke the cost down on a big ship(say a Nimitz class aircraft carrier) it has over a billion dollars in fighter jets alone on it(let alone the weapons systems for the said jets). another few hundred million in radar systems. another billion or so in various support fixed wing and rotor aircraft.
Risien Drogonne	Posted - 2006.12.17 23:45:00 - [55] Originally by: Viktor Fyretracker honestly i used to think mods being worth more then the ship was silly then i looked at the real world Navy, if you broke the cost down on a big ship(say a Nimitz class aircraft carrier) it has over a billion dollars in fighter jets alone on it(let alone the weapons systems for the said jets). another few hundred million in radar systems. another billion or so in various support fixed wing and rotor aircraft. How about comparing to something more similar like a nuclear submarine?
Zin Rathbone	Posted - 2006.12.17 23:46:00 - [56] The cost of something is simply what people are willing to pay for it. T2 builders are able to find enough buyers at the curent prices to keep them happy. When there are not enough buyers the prices will fall. Simple economics. They are a limited resource, and demand keeps the prices that high. If you dont like it go with best named instead. Tech 2 is supposed to be an elete module, not something eveyrone would have on their ship. If they were ment to be ubiquitious you could buy them from npcs.
Dr Fighter	Posted - 2006.12.18 00:35:00 - [57] Dont forget about re-sellers. You can hand out more BPs but if anyone sells for less the re-sellers will snap them up and your back to square one. We need LOTS more bps, and invention far eayer, even with batch invention!
HankMurphy Pelennor Swarm Eternal Rangers of Terror	Posted - 2006.12.18 01:55:00 - [58] Originally by: Zin Rathbone The cost of something is simply what people are willing to pay for it. T2 builders are able to find enough buyers at the curent prices to keep them happy. When there are not enough buyers the prices will fall. Simple economics. They are a limited resource, and demand keeps the prices that high. If you dont like it go with best named instead. Tech 2 is supposed to be an elete module, not something eveyrone would have on their ship. If they were ment to be ubiquitious you could buy them from npcs. you make alot of assumptions there. funny how you say t2 is for the elite, (not elete) yet even the devs have mentioned they would like to make them the norm. best named right along w/ faction and officer still have their purposes. they should be MORE expensive as they provide as good (or better) than t2 stats w/ lower fitting costs (with the exception of weapons modules as they alone can use t2 ammo as we know) There is no logical argument that can rationalize why T2 producers / large alliances should be able to corner market against teh little guy due to low supply. NONE, i challenge you to tell me why a T2 producer that got lucky on one lottery should be able to enjoy multiple 100%s of profit over their production costs. Its just greed pure and simple, one that has been fostered by lack of attention to the T2 lottery system. no. i would wager you to be a t2 producer. is it that hard to realize the market is tipped in your favor atm? 'When there are not enough buyers the prices will fall' LOL wtf are you smoking? Look at price trends over the last year. If you honestly think they will decrease due to some inexplicable reason for ppl to stop buying your crazy. Not enough buyers, not enough buyers... what POSSIBLY could the flip side of the coin be for a solution?..... hmm... how about MORE PRODUCERS?? Yeah, thats the ticket! Imagine, just for a second, being able to buy T2 equipment/ships at a reasonable markup of (lets just say) 50% production cost!? I can tell you one thing, PVP quality throughout the game would become much more interesting. You might actually see ppl engaging the new BCs w/ HACs (talk about a good fight!). But whats the point when your guns cost as much as the other guys ship, and your ship costs 3-4 (more) times than the other guys entire ship+setup. Of course, the current monopolies in place and the ppl set up to reap rewards of the new t2 seeding wont be happy about a change like that, but in the long run it would be optimal for the entire community. BPC lotteries instead of BPO CCP.
Ionstream	Posted - 2006.12.18 02:49:00 - [59] well, hopefully it will sort out other issues too. if invention does indeed bring the whole market down we can finally insure our t2 ships. i have a pilgrim, which currently is now worth 100-120mil, with a t2 cov ops cloak at about 70mil. that's at least 170 mil, but the baseprice of a pilgrim is 15. the base cost of an apoc is 112, yet they sell for under 100 and insure to over 100, yet i pay 100 for a cruiser that can match a battleship and if i insure it and lose it i get 15 back?! that's wrong, it's always been wrong that t2 ships have been so stupidly covered (or not) by 'insurance' and it's time this at least was sorted out. if the market conditions don't decrease prices, then insurance payouts should increase because it's just wrong to fly these ships when you lose so much money.
Risien Drogonne	Posted - 2006.12.18 03:26:00 - [60] Originally by: Zin Rathbone The cost of something is simply what people are willing to pay for it. T2 builders are able to find enough buyers at the curent prices to keep them happy. When there are not enough buyers the prices will fall. Simple economics. They are a limited resource, and demand keeps the prices that high. If you dont like it go with best named instead. Tech 2 is supposed to be an elete module, not something eveyrone would have on their ship. If they were ment to be ubiquitious you could buy them from npcs. Wow, thanks for the explanation! Until this very moment, none of us ever had any clue whatsoever what supply and demand was! You, sir, are an academic gem.
Synapse Archae Amarr Solarflare Heavy Industries Pure.	Posted - 2006.12.18 04:20:00 - [61] Originally by: Laboratus Edited by: Laboratus on 17/12/2006 09:39:27 Originally by: Risien Drogonne Originally by: Vasiliyan There's been a reseeding of BPOs, which should help somewhat, although you'll have to wait a little while for them to come to market. T2 was never supposed to be cheap. You know, I don't see anyone asking for cheap. What I see is people asking that it cost less than 50 times the manufacturing prices. They are not that cheap to manufacture either. And the manufacturing infrastructure that goes into making one part is kinda depressing. If you don't belive me just look at the bpos and go through the manufacturing process step by step all the way from the T2 component parts, through the advanced materials, down to the moon minerals and think about how many poses, ice miners haulers etc are present and involved in the manufacturing chain. They are expensinve for a reason. It drives a whole industry. And there isn't really as much air in those prices as there are in real world ones P.S. For the record, I don't have anything to do with T2 production. Thought about making advanced materials once. The initial investment would have required 4 Bill, with 1 bill monthly costs, so I thought bugger that. I'm way too poor. You know I was just going to make a flame about "expensive" when youre making 500% profit at least. Then I realized there is one serious point here. A lot of the POS materials market is driven by very very thin margins. Large amounts of it simply arent worth the time to produce. Those guys who make Sulfuric Acid? I wonder how they cover fuel costs. High T2 item prices are covering for a very broken market in POS materials. Fix the T2 market and the POS market will have to be fixed as well. Currently there are materials that simply arent worth the fuel it would cost to mine them. - - - These elite slaves are exceptionally well suited for physical labor.
Reatu Krentor Minmatar Void Spiders Fate Weavers	Posted - 2006.12.18 04:57:00 - [62] Originally by: OBI WAN Sadly it's a case of "it's too late now". If CCP decide the lottery was a bad idea then they can't just remove all existing BPOs as people would complain. Since they can't bring the T2 to the people, they need to bring the people to T2, and invention was their idea. I just wish it was a better one! I honestly think the ideal solution would be to allow your average Joe access to T2 BPOs through means of a long and testing research project. Say to obtain this BPO you needed to collect items from 0.0, rare exploration sites and other such things that would take at least 2 months to fully obtain. This way, people can embark on a long and arduous journey to obtain a T2 BPO and feel decently rewarded at the end of it all, and it would allow for the T2 market to become... reasonable. Sure, existing T2 BPO owners would whine, but what did you do to really EARN your BPO? They changed the basic cargo expander bpo into T1 cargo expander bpo. Why can't they do the same with the T2 bpo, transform them into an really high-run researched bpc and then make invention the only path to get T2 bp's. Invention would of course have to yield better bpc's then it can now(as in no negative me/pe), it won't be competing with bpo owners for supply after all. Crystal-Slave, that way? Potential solution to the current Recon cloak and cyno bug
Laboratus Gallente BGG	Posted - 2006.12.18 08:32:00 - [63] Edited by: Laboratus on 18/12/2006 08:36:07 Originally by: Synapse Archae Then I realized there is one serious point here. A lot of the POS materials market is driven by very very thin margins. Large amounts of it simply arent worth the time to produce. Those guys who make Sulfuric Acid? I wonder how they cover fuel costs. High T2 item prices are covering for a very broken market in POS materials. Fix the T2 market and the POS market will have to be fixed as well. Currently there are materials that simply arent worth the fuel it would cost to mine them. With the current demand of T2 items, most producers would propably still be willing to pay, say 3 or 5 times more than what what they are paying now for the components. There are just too many producers for the moon minerals versus producers of T2 items for that to happen. Unless... A cartel is formed. Propably too many ppl in too many factions for that, but always nice to speculate... I've been wondering about the same thing as well. Some of the stuff out there is sold significantly under the cost to produce. So unless some ppl like to lose isk when selling stuff, someone is supporting their ractions with a lot of macromining... ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats
Lorn Yeager Gallente Blessed Souls	Posted - 2006.12.18 09:02:00 - [64] Originally by: Virger I'm talking straight t2 mods here. The demand for t2 items, such as the t2 425mm railgun, has greatly outstripped supply for some time now, not to mention the addition of more ships that use them. Which has brought the average price of them above 20 million. CCP, do you honestly believe it is acceptable to have to pay 140 million just to equip a megathron with t2 425mm rails? I do not. I remember when they used to go for 6m a pop and that was considered expensive. I dont think CCP really care. Its out of thier hands. Also, asking for a change in game-mechanic because you as a character cant afford a certain item isnt really.... kosher. No insult intended. Its a game, not a charity festival. Begin sig: //-> Its Aloha time! Lorn Yeager Blessed Souls

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