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Red Templar
Raging Ducks
Goonswarm Federation
108
   |
Posted - 2011.12.13 13:17:00 -
[31] - Quote
Nice write up!
For Love. For Peace. For Honor.
For None of the Above.
For Pony! |
KFenn
Percussive Diplomacy
128
|
Posted - 2011.12.13 13:29:00 -
[32] - Quote
Thanks for the write-up Vile.
One thing I will say that if you're that worried about breaching NDA then the NDA needs to be more clear in its scope. Considering the importance of such a document I'd have though it would have been very clearly defined.
Commanding Officer of the Treacle Tart Brigade
SLAPD Director |
Vile rat
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
620
|
Posted - 2011.12.13 13:34:00 -
[33] - Quote
KFenn wrote:Thanks for the write-up Vile.
One thing I will say that if you're that worried about breaching NDA then the NDA needs to be more clear in its scope. Considering the importance of such a document I'd have though it would have been very clearly defined.
The problem is that the conversations tend to be freely roaming without somebody raising a flag saying "hey this is NDA" so it's difficult to really get a firm grasp on what is and isn't. |
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
132
|
Posted - 2011.12.13 13:38:00 -
[34] - Quote
Thanks, Vile Rat.
Now I understand that WiS is officially the half-cooked feature that will be broken for the next 5 years. Frigganwesome. 
So... no affordable NEx store... no full-fledged Incarna... no new casual content... no new solo content... no new PvE content...-á
Why should I keep paying to play this game? |
Vile rat
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
620
|
Posted - 2011.12.13 13:51:00 -
[35] - Quote
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:Thanks, Vile Rat. Now I understand that WiS is officially the half-cooked feature that will be broken for the next 5 years. Frigganwesome.
Well they got this idea right? When things aren't going on and we're all hanging out in station we can walk around, interact, hell we could maybe even see the ships outside! (windows exist you know...) and maybe we can open up businesses and actually have a working sims like economy it would be a fun immersion aspect!
Only there's deadlines. Things don't go exactly as planned, features slip, the quality isn't what they expected from a CCP product. They bust their ass trying to make this all work but this deadline is approaching and Incarna has been hyped up like WHOAH cause it's a game changer.
What? We might be able to get exactly one small captains quarters done? We hyped the hell out of this great idea to only be able to deliver this?
Incarna.
There's nobody trying to make excuses, they know what went wrong and it's systemic. I'd say that's the real theme of the Crucible expansion. They've found the rot and are actively working to make the company right so they can get back to making the product right. I don't want to blow sunshine up your asses and say everything is great and oh man nothing but awesomeness from here on out, but there's a strong sense that it's going to take real work on the core game to win us back and they're going to do it. |
Lord Zim
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
284
|
Posted - 2011.12.13 14:11:00 -
[36] - Quote
I can just say that I was one of the nullsec guys who were getting pretty close to quitting out of disgust with the direction CCP was heading, and CCP making gaffe after gaffe didn't help. Then Hilmar made the apology letter, crucible came out with (I believe) 300+ lines of changes vs 40-50 of the past few expansions for a few months' work, and I'm starting to get hopeful they've got their old awesome back.
I'm withholding the final judgement until they release the next expansion, but this writeup seems to indicate that I might be pleasantly surprised. If they keep up what they've done for crucible, only bigger and better (because they have more time and less ~panic~), then chances are I'll at least be a happy camper. |
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
132
|
Posted - 2011.12.13 14:43:00 -
[37] - Quote
Vile rat wrote:Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:Thanks, Vile Rat. Now I understand that WiS is officially the half-cooked feature that will be broken for the next 5 years. Frigganwesome. Well they got this idea right? When things aren't going on and we're all hanging out in station we can walk around, interact, hell we could maybe even see the ships outside! (windows exist you know...) and maybe we can open up businesses and actually have a working sims like economy it would be a fun immersion aspect! Only there's deadlines. Things don't go exactly as planned, features slip, the quality isn't what they expected from a CCP product. They bust their ass trying to make this all work but this deadline is approaching and Incarna has been hyped up like WHOAH cause it's a game changer. What? We might be able to get exactly one small captains quarters done? We hyped the hell out of this great idea to only be able to deliver this? Incarna. There's nobody trying to make excuses, they know what went wrong and it's systemic. I'd say that's the real theme of the Crucible expansion. They've found the rot and are actively working to make the company right so they can get back to making the product right. I don't want to blow sunshine up your asses and say everything is great and oh man nothing but awesomeness from here on out, but there's a strong sense that it's going to take real work on the core game to win us back and they're going to do it.
Glad for you, but read my signature.
So... no affordable NEx store... no full-fledged Incarna... no new casual content... no new solo content... no new PvE content...-á
Why should I keep paying to play this game? |
Vile rat
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
622
|
Posted - 2011.12.13 14:45:00 -
[38] - Quote
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:Vile rat wrote:Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:Thanks, Vile Rat. Now I understand that WiS is officially the half-cooked feature that will be broken for the next 5 years. Frigganwesome. Well they got this idea right? When things aren't going on and we're all hanging out in station we can walk around, interact, hell we could maybe even see the ships outside! (windows exist you know...) and maybe we can open up businesses and actually have a working sims like economy it would be a fun immersion aspect! Only there's deadlines. Things don't go exactly as planned, features slip, the quality isn't what they expected from a CCP product. They bust their ass trying to make this all work but this deadline is approaching and Incarna has been hyped up like WHOAH cause it's a game changer. What? We might be able to get exactly one small captains quarters done? We hyped the hell out of this great idea to only be able to deliver this? Incarna. There's nobody trying to make excuses, they know what went wrong and it's systemic. I'd say that's the real theme of the Crucible expansion. They've found the rot and are actively working to make the company right so they can get back to making the product right. I don't want to blow sunshine up your asses and say everything is great and oh man nothing but awesomeness from here on out, but there's a strong sense that it's going to take real work on the core game to win us back and they're going to do it. Glad for you, but read my signature.
Please don't get the impression what I've said directly addresses anything that you have in your signature, because it doesn't. I was giving overall impressions, not specific examples or anything tangible. For that you'll have to wait for the minutes.
|
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
132
|
Posted - 2011.12.13 14:54:00 -
[39] - Quote
Vile rat wrote:Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:Vile rat wrote:Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:Thanks, Vile Rat. Now I understand that WiS is officially the half-cooked feature that will be broken for the next 5 years. Frigganwesome. Well they got this idea right? When things aren't going on and we're all hanging out in station we can walk around, interact, hell we could maybe even see the ships outside! (windows exist you know...) and maybe we can open up businesses and actually have a working sims like economy it would be a fun immersion aspect! Only there's deadlines. Things don't go exactly as planned, features slip, the quality isn't what they expected from a CCP product. They bust their ass trying to make this all work but this deadline is approaching and Incarna has been hyped up like WHOAH cause it's a game changer. What? We might be able to get exactly one small captains quarters done? We hyped the hell out of this great idea to only be able to deliver this? Incarna. There's nobody trying to make excuses, they know what went wrong and it's systemic. I'd say that's the real theme of the Crucible expansion. They've found the rot and are actively working to make the company right so they can get back to making the product right. I don't want to blow sunshine up your asses and say everything is great and oh man nothing but awesomeness from here on out, but there's a strong sense that it's going to take real work on the core game to win us back and they're going to do it. Glad for you, but read my signature. Please don't get the impression what I've said directly addresses anything that you have in your signature, because it doesn't. I was giving overall impressions, not specific examples or anything tangible. For that you'll have to wait for the minutes.
49 days and 1,337 posts later, still no CCP has commented on the WiS thread*, and apparently you didn't talked about the issue at the meeting neither... a deafening silence, isn't it?
*here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=244597#post244597
So... no affordable NEx store... no full-fledged Incarna... no new casual content... no new solo content... no new PvE content...-á
Why should I keep paying to play this game? |
Vile rat
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
623
|
Posted - 2011.12.13 15:05:00 -
[40] - Quote
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Have you been paying attention? WiS rollout wasn't their finest hour. If you're trying to build a groundswell of players who think that space dollies should take precedence over fixing all the problems with the core gameplay, good luck to you but I'm not on your side on this one. |
thoth rothschild
First Aid Emergency Service
42
|
Posted - 2011.12.13 15:34:00 -
[41] - Quote
Is there any solid idea and plan on how to get rid of the 2001 list style, space control ui?
For most of you this might not look like a problem because you are used to all the lists and right clicking and thousands of different windows. New players get insta shocked, stunned and paralysed by the massive not intuitive controls which need to be handled to successfully control their own tiny space ship. Controling a helicopter might be easier.
It is the projection of information which is more than confusing. Most flight control information systems will try to get s much information as possible in a visual style. Decisions need to meade within seconds. Scrolling throught lists might take to long to keep someone alive.
Well might be hard to find new ideas but someone need to start and get the ball rolling. |
Rek Seven
Probe Patrol
Project Wildfire
71
|
Posted - 2011.12.13 16:33:00 -
[42] - Quote
delete |
Orakkus
The Fancy Hats Corporation
Insane Asylum
17
|
Posted - 2011.12.13 17:19:00 -
[43] - Quote
Yeah, I am pretty interested to find out more about the UI changes they plan to make. I remember way back that there was a supposed technical reason why customized and importable UIs weren't being allowed.. so has that changed? As far as the customizing we are going to see something other than scalability and color changes?
|
Max Kolonko
Worm Nation
Ash Alliance
17
|
Posted - 2011.12.13 20:25:00 -
[44] - Quote
Vile rat wrote:Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote: Have you been paying attention? WiS rollout wasn't their finest hour. If you're trying to build a groundswell of players who think that space dollies should take precedence over fixing all the problems with the core gameplay, good luck to you but I'm not on your side on this one.
/signed
Incarna could be great (future-vision-like great). But what we got is not worth abandoning FiS. Fix EVERYTHING (or 80%) than work on some WiS stuff.
I guess CCP invested to much into it to abandon it completly. But this can wait if they give us nice FiS gameplay.
Nice write-up Vile. Thanks for your input. |
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
133
|
Posted - 2011.12.13 20:29:00 -
[45] - Quote
Vile rat wrote:Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote: Have you been paying attention? WiS rollout wasn't their finest hour. If you're trying to build a groundswell of players who think that space dollies should take precedence over fixing all the problems with the core gameplay, good luck to you but I'm not on your side on this one.
Precedence not. But neither become the next bloody feature to be abandoned for years after being released in a broken status.
So... no affordable NEx store... no full-fledged Incarna... no new casual content... no new solo content... no new PvE content...-á
Why should I keep paying to play this game? |
Max Kolonko
Worm Nation
Ash Alliance
17
|
Posted - 2011.12.13 20:41:00 -
[46] - Quote
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:Vile rat wrote:Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote: Have you been paying attention? WiS rollout wasn't their finest hour. If you're trying to build a groundswell of players who think that space dollies should take precedence over fixing all the problems with the core gameplay, good luck to you but I'm not on your side on this one. Precedence not. But neither become the next bloody feature to be abandoned for years after being released in a broken status.
True. Its little ironic to talk about fixing broken and abandoned stuff and openly negating newly introduced broken stuff :D
But truth to be told, what we have now is not a feature even. Its a promise of a feature we could have.
I'm sure You've all heard about Pareto-Lorenz-something Rule of 80%-20%?
It takes 20% of time/resources to acomplish 80% of any goal and another 80% ot time to get the last 20%. Its just one of those cosmic rules that work to some degree in any part of life.
Too put it in eve situation - it would took a loooooots of time and money and resources and unsubbed-bitter-vets to finally deliver cool WiS.
While at the same time it took just few months to deliver dozens of life changing fixes that made all eve players weep with joy like 5year old getting a lollipop.
So with Pareto rule in mind, You go where least effort is required to gain most effect (20%) tahn You go with harder stuff to get the next 10% (50% of effort gets you 90% of effect) and than You got with huge-workload stuff to get that last 10%.
Not the other way around. |
Lord Zim
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
289
|
Posted - 2011.12.14 08:50:00 -
[47] - Quote
Max Kolonko wrote:Too put it in eve situation - it would took a loooooots of time and money and resources and unsubbed-bitter-vets to finally deliver cool WiS.
While at the same time it took just few months to deliver dozens of life changing fixes that made all eve players weep with joy like 5year old getting a lollipop.
To be fair, the main reason why I at least got such a surge of hope over the last expansion was that it gave me a glimmer of hope that maybe, just maybe, CCP had learned their lesson and changed the way they do things for the better.
The reports from Trebor and Vile rat seems to indicate that this is indeed a lasting change, but I'm waiting for their 6 month long in development-expansion before I really start to praise the new jesus; nothing like the old jesus. |
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
134
|
Posted - 2011.12.14 14:34:00 -
[48] - Quote
Max Kolonko wrote:Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:Vile rat wrote:Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote: Have you been paying attention? WiS rollout wasn't their finest hour. If you're trying to build a groundswell of players who think that space dollies should take precedence over fixing all the problems with the core gameplay, good luck to you but I'm not on your side on this one. Precedence not. But neither become the next bloody feature to be abandoned for years after being released in a broken status. True. Its little ironic to talk about fixing broken and abandoned stuff and openly negating newly introduced broken stuff :D But truth to be told, what we have now is not a feature even. Its a promise of a feature we could have. I'm sure You've all heard about Pareto-Lorenz-something Rule of 80%-20%? It takes 20% of time/resources to acomplish 80% of any goal and another 80% ot time to get the last 20%. Its just one of those cosmic rules that work to some degree in any part of life. Too put it in eve situation - it would took a loooooots of time and money and resources and unsubbed-bitter-vets to finally deliver cool WiS. While at the same time it took just few months to deliver dozens of life changing fixes that made all eve players weep with joy like 5year old getting a lollipop. So with Pareto rule in mind, You go where least effort is required to gain most effect (20%) tahn You go with harder stuff to get the next 10% (50% of effort gets you 90% of effect) and than You got with huge-workload stuff to get that last 10%. Not the other way around.
Well, My view on that law is:
80% of the effort is spent creating 20% of the feature (the engine and its integration to spreadsheets in space)
Then 20% of the effort is spent into creating 80% the feature: art and mechanics.
FAI, the NEx functionality is minimal, and yet the artwork ready to deliver along with it is huge... although it's being hold for no reason. And the bloody change that would make NEx pay for itself as intended is a 5-minute work of any junior developer: "Huh, change the availability status of items itn that table to "1", then remove a 0 from each price in that other table, then bring me some coffee".
That is not being done and we don't even are told why. We are CCP's and CSM's mushrooms, they are feeding us garbage and keep us in the dark.
So... no affordable NEx store... no full-fledged Incarna... no new casual content... no new solo content... no new PvE content...-á
Why should I keep paying to play this game? |
Hans Jagerblitzen
Autocannons Anonymous
629
|
Posted - 2011.12.14 15:14:00 -
[49] - Quote
Max Kolonko wrote:
I'm sure You've all heard about Pareto-Lorenz-something Rule of 80%-20%?
I always KNEW there was some scientific evidence out there proving that Faction Warfare needs to be revamped ASAP, I just couldn't put my finger on it. Thanks for setting the record straight!
|
Lord Zim
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
292
|
Posted - 2011.12.14 15:19:00 -
[50] - Quote
I'd certainly put FW vastly over NEx on the list of things to be fixed. |
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