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Warp Disruptor drone for revamped BC

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Saisin Chao3's Rogue Operatives Corp Chao3 Alliance 289	Posted - 2015.09.13 19:03:25 - [1] - Quote The revamp of BC with its focus on drone speed to help address the dominance of kittimg in the metagame requires also a new kind of drones: warp disruption drones. These could be Heavy drones that apply a warp disruption effect to their target when they are within 24km, and turns into a scram effect when they reach 9km, and that only BC could field. These could help balance the meta better between kitting and brawling. "surrender your ego, be free". innuendo. solo? There is a new hope...
Ralph King-Griffin Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance 11792	Posted - 2015.09.13 19:23:22 - [2] - Quote That's all kinds of broken. Better the Devil you know. =]\|[=
Saisin Chao3's Rogue Operatives Corp Chao3 Alliance 289	Posted - 2015.09.13 19:34:21 - [3] - Quote There are many dials available to balance it, like base speed, hp, bandwidth requirements, mass,... I certainly do not believe BCs should have a flight of 5. Like geckos, may be one ship can field only two or three max of those. "surrender your ego, be free". innuendo. solo? There is a new hope...
Lugh Crow-Slave 1227	Posted - 2015.09.13 19:46:29 - [4] - Quote Lol here let me scram you 5x with no target lock What no its not broken what do you mean? Fuel block colors? Missiles for Caldari T3? Corp Stasis
Ralph King-Griffin Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance 11798	Posted - 2015.09.13 20:00:36 - [5] - Quote Neuts....lol nope Jams.....lol nope Damps....lol nope At least in low/null you can smart bomb the damn things off but in high sec ... Better the Devil you know. =]\|[=
Celthric Kanerian Ascendance Of New Eden Workers Trade Federation 447	Posted - 2015.09.13 20:02:13 - [6] - Quote That sounds insanely overpowered beyond any means of balancing... Hell no.
Baali Tekitsu AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse 885	Posted - 2015.09.13 20:04:47 - [7] - Quote Quite a nice idea actually, they would require balancing hitpoints and speed wise but the concept sounds good. RATE LIKE SUBSCRIBE
M1k3y Koontz Respawn Disabled Initiative Mercenaries 799	Posted - 2015.09.13 20:06:03 - [8] - Quote Lets see what the range and mobility buff do, then we can talk about other ideas. And no, this is not going to be one of the other ideas. How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
Thron Legacy White Zulu Scorpion Federation 9	Posted - 2015.09.13 20:37:49 - [9] - Quote Concept sounds good.
Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 2618	Posted - 2015.09.13 21:09:13 - [10] - Quote Saisin wrote: There are many dials available to balance it, like base speed, hp, bandwidth requirements, mass,... I certainly do not believe BCs should have a flight of 5. Like geckos, may be one ship can field only two or three max of those. There's always a way to balance it, unfortunately in this case I feel that the base effect is too strong to make a balanced warp disruptor drone any fun to use. Making it Gecko size could work. Here's what I think the stats could look like: Gecko WD-1000 * 50m3, 50mb/s * 1500m/s * optimal: 4800m * warp disrupt strength: 1 * scan resolution: 250mm Ogre WD-900 * 25m3, 25mb/s * 750m/s * optimal: 4200m * warp disrupt strength: 1 * scan resolution: 150mm Gecko WS-1000 * 50m3, 50mb/s * 1000m/s * optimal: 4200m * warp disrupt strength: 2 * scan resolution: 150mm Notes: They must get to close range to have any effect, and the effect does not get stronger with proximity. I gave the warp disrupt Gecko less speed than an attack Gecko, but it's still faster than an Ogre. The warp disrupt Ogre is very slow and will struggle to get to and keep up with a target, but it can be ideal for any slow target or one that is webbed. It can likely keep up with an afterburning battleship. The warp scramble Gecko has poor speed, lower than an attack Ogre, to make up for its boosted warp strength and ability to turn off MWDs and MJDs. The warp scramble effect is too strong for an Ogre with any sort of reasonable attributes. It would have to be so slow as to not be worth putting into the game. I gave these drones a scan resolution attribute. I am not sure but I suspect that drones do not use scan resolution. It isn't listed in their attribute page and they seem to lock any target pretty quickly. I think they should have a scan resolution attribute, and I set the WS-900 and WD-1000 drones to have a rather low scan resolution such that they will take a while to target any small ships. If the controlling ship gains a lock before the drones do, it nullifies their need to get a lock. It's not a super important point anyway, however, as drones only automatically attack a ship that fired first. Someone trying to bust through a gate camp isn't likely to aggro these drones. Pirate ship Nightmare, can you fathom Larger but with smaller spikes than Phantasm The Succubus looks meaner But the Revenant cleaner Seems as they get bigger, the smaller spikes they has'm
Saisin Chao3's Rogue Operatives Corp Chao3 Alliance 289	Posted - 2015.09.13 22:18:00 - [11] - Quote Ralph King-Griffin wrote: Neuts....lol nope Jams.....lol nope Damps....lol nope At least in low/null you can smart bomb the damn things off but in high sec ... and why not! because it is not done now... this is a forum for new ideas, out-of-the-box thinking.. why not applying e-war on such drones, if that participates to the balance? "surrender your ego, be free". innuendo. solo? There is a new hope...
Danika Princip GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 3813	Posted - 2015.09.13 22:45:18 - [12] - Quote Why should it be absolutely one hundred percent impossible to ever even think about using an MWD or an MJD when there's a BC on grid?
Baali Tekitsu AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse 886	Posted - 2015.09.13 22:52:45 - [13] - Quote Danika Princip wrote: Why should it be absolutely one hundred percent impossible to ever even think about using an MWD or an MJD when there's a BC on grid? All can be balanced by giving them low enough hitpoints, orbit radius and velocity to make it easy to kill them. RATE LIKE SUBSCRIBE
CaptainMorgan49 Troglodytes of Narnia 2	Posted - 2015.09.13 23:15:30 - [14] - Quote +1 to the "terrible idea, unbalanced no matter how you did it". These drones would completely replace all the interceptors and frigates in a fleet that normally tackle. Dictors might still see some use but all the other light ships that give a fleet variety and allow newbie players to contribute would be invalidated at a stroke. The BC fleet would have dps, tackle and very solid tank/EHP all rolled into one ship - the perfect ship, everyone, and I do mean EVERYONE would be flying BC fleets and nothing else. If you made the range short enough (and hps small enough) that they could be smartbombed, you would just be ensuring that every single pvp ship to undock would have to have a smartbomb fitted. That would not be a step forward. Just for starters, it would skew pvp ship selection massively towards ships that have spare utility highs.
Baali Tekitsu AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse 887	Posted - 2015.09.13 23:22:38 - [15] - Quote Except small ships would be faster with nice scan resolution, more tank and all the stuff the drone AI does not (like driveby scrams to not commit). RATE LIKE SUBSCRIBE
Saisin Chao3's Rogue Operatives Corp Chao3 Alliance 289	Posted - 2015.09.13 23:35:02 - [16] - Quote CaptainMorgan49 wrote: +1 to the "terrible idea, unbalanced no matter how you did it". These drones would completely replace all the interceptors and frigates in a fleet that normally tackle. Dictors might still see some use but all the other light ships that give a fleet variety and allow newbie players to contribute would be invalidated at a stroke. The BC fleet would have dps, tackle and very solid tank/EHP all rolled into one ship - the perfect ship, everyone, and I do mean EVERYONE would be flying BC fleets and nothing else. If you made the range short enough (and hps small enough) that they could be smartbombed, you would just be ensuring that every single pvp ship to undock would have to have a smartbomb fitted. That would not be a step forward. Just for starters, it would skew pvp ship selection massively towards ships that have spare utility highs. Disruption drones could be setup to significantly reduce DPS of carrying BCs to the point that having smallerr cheaper tackles for large fleet remain a valid option. I totally agree that these points need to be taken in consideration. The goal is to force kitters to switch targets to the primary threat that these drones would be for them, as the kitting meta is so prevalent today, with very little drawback. "surrender your ego, be free". innuendo. solo? There is a new hope...
Lyra Gerie Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation 66	Posted - 2015.09.14 00:14:06 - [17] - Quote I would promote this only if a few things were noted. 1. they have to be fragile 2. they dont have to be slow, but they do have to have a short range 3. outside specialty drones they should only have a scram strength of 1 4. they need higher than normal bandwidth so only a few can be in a flight. Their range should likely not be any longer than 4km and that's only for faction versions. I would put base range at 1-2km leaning closer to 1. They would have a speed of about 1.25x-1.33x combat heavy drones. There is an issue with balance here that would need tweeking. Too fast with a short range and larger ships wont be able to track and kill them even if they are fragile, especially if they were launched at close range. Meanwhile too long of a range could just be straight unfair and overpowered regardless of how easy it could be to clear the field of them. Their total EHP would be closer to that of a medium drone but they would still retain the normal 25m3 of space but would likely go up to 50 for bandwidth use to avoid there being too many fielded at once.
Lugh Crow-Slave 1232	Posted - 2015.09.14 01:28:30 - [18] - Quote Baali Tekitsu wrote: Except small ships would be faster with nice scan resolution, more tank and all the stuff the drone AI does not (like driveby scrams to not commit). But that small ship can't fit 10 points of disruption Fuel block colors? Missiles for Caldari T3? Corp Stasis
Leto Aramaus Spiritus Draconis Spaceship Bebop 226	Posted - 2015.09.14 02:16:42 - [19] - Quote -1 to a drone with arbitrary "can only go in BC drone bays" rule. so dumb. The UI update we deserve
CaptainMorgan49 Troglodytes of Narnia 3	Posted - 2015.09.14 02:28:41 - [20] - Quote Saisin wrote: The goal is to force kitters to switch targets to the primary threat that these drones would be for them, as the kitting meta is so prevalent today, with very little drawback. The stats you have suggested could not be effective against kiting gangs. Even a fairly slow cruiser like the cerberus does over 1700 m/s with just a bog standard MWD and real kiting setups with orthrus's and the like do about 2300 m/s or more before any links or implants or anything like that. If your drones have a short enough range that they can be smartbombed, a competent FC will never put his fleet anywhere near the swarm of warp disruption drones. If they have a long enough range that it is hard to stay out of their range in any sort of standard fleet fight, they they are going to end up being overpowered because one side is going to have to manually lock up loads and loads of drones and start shooting them and during that time, they are getting completely ripped appart by hostile fire and applying none of their own dps to the hostile fleet. If you put the speed up but keep the range low then you are essentially allowing every BC pilot to command his own fleet of interceptors, even if you limit it to 2 drones, that is giving the BC pilot double the functionality of an interceptor + a massive tank + any dps he has on the rest of his weapons.... It is just broken. What it boils down to, is that if you make the drones too gimped in speed/range, they will be pointless for anything beyond perhaps some gate camping and if you give them enough speed/range to really apply themselves then they will be massively overpowered because what you are essentially saying is that, assuming an engagement of vaguely comparable numbers, the fleet with these things will be able to disrupt every hostile ship in the fleet and hold them in place on grid. That kind of power is obscene, it is the power of the dictor and they only get to do it in a specific limited area of their bubble, from very close range in a ship with all the EHP soggy piece of toilet paper. I think one fundamental problem is that with any other ewar drone, the effect is incremental or probability based (ecm has a _chance_ to jam, webbers reduce the speed a _little bit_, etc.), with a warp disruption drone, the effect is total and has a 100% probability of being applied and it is a powerful effect. For comparison, imagine an ecm drone that jammed on every cycle or a dampener drone that reduced the enemies range to zero or a webber drone that reduced the enemies speed to zero - they would all be horrifically overpowered. The only way I would consider a warp disruption drone was if it's effect was based on an ecm type cycle time and had a probability of working (which would need to be relatively low).
CaptainMorgan49 Troglodytes of Narnia 3	Posted - 2015.09.14 02:36:53 - [21] - Quote Leto Aramaus wrote: -1 to a drone with arbitrary "can only go in BC drone bays" rule. so dumb. Not really. - Fighterbombers can only go in supercarriers. - Fighters can only go in carriers and supercarriers. - Frigates can't use geckos. I'm sure there are more examples I just can't think of right now. Eve is absolutely chock full of modules that are high ship specific, being restricted to anything from several classes to just one class to just one specific ship. It's no big stretch to create a BC only drone.
Azazel The Misanthrope Proioxis Assault Force Exodus. 59	Posted - 2015.09.14 06:38:19 - [22] - Quote What if the drones had a decimated warp scramble strength, so that they had to have multiples of these drones on a target in order to have any effect at all?
Baali Tekitsu AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse 890	Posted - 2015.09.14 15:23:06 - [23] - Quote Azazel The Misanthrope wrote: What if the drones had a decimated warp scramble strength, so that they had to have multiples of these drones on a target in order to have any effect at all? I like that. Or just make them have chance based scrams/no warp scram points at all. RATE LIKE SUBSCRIBE
Saisin Chao3's Rogue Operatives Corp Chao3 Alliance 291	Posted - 2015.09.14 19:59:30 - [24] - Quote CaptainMorgan49 wrote: The stats you have suggested could not be effective against kiting gangs. I only suggested stats about disrutpion effect at 24km and scram effect at 9km. I do agree that such drone should replace a lot of DPS, and be somewhat slow like heavy drones are. I do not believe the random chance like ECM is a good system, but a decimal interdiction value instead of integer for one drone can be a good way to force at least two drones to connect to the target for the effect to apply. It is well know that a kitter can easily handle a disruption point as it does not affect their speed in any way. They are the faster ones, and control the ranges when they need it. An interdiction drone, as I described them in my OP, would force kitting fleet to change tjheir orbit and lessen their grip on the brawler ships these drones are intended to help. Kitters have to address the new menace on the threat of being scrammed. This is fundamentaly why I suggested in the first place that these drones should disrupt at 24km and scram at 9km. The kitters must prevent them to reach them, and they have their speed and can change targets to do so before the drones are in the deadly range for them. As everyone knows a scrammed kitter is, most of the time, a dead kitter. Such drones introduce a new parameter to the fight, a mobile kitter's threat taking the shortest possible path to their target, while the ship launching them regain some autonomy of maneuvering while the kitters have to respond to the new threat. "surrender your ego, be free". innuendo. solo? There is a new hope...
Bagrat Skalski Poseidaon 9521	Posted - 2015.09.14 20:07:43 - [25] - Quote Hero drone tackle? That is so impersonal. Custom ship skins \| Since 2014 \| Character creator style "repaint" \| Bring back the dream
Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 2621	Posted - 2015.09.15 07:07:50 - [26] - Quote A tackle Ogre with 1 warp disrupt strength, a short activation range, and slow movement speed isn't really unbalanced. Yes, it does offer the chance for a single Vexor to put out 5 points, but they need a lot of time to get to their targets. It's nothing like having 5 actual warp disruptors with 20km range and instant application as soon as you lock target. Pirate ship Nightmare, can you fathom Larger but with smaller spikes than Phantasm The Succubus looks meaner But the Revenant cleaner Seems as they get bigger, the smaller spikes they has'm
big miker Rifterlings Zero.Four Ops 335	Posted - 2015.09.15 08:12:43 - [27] - Quote Let them only work against the Orthrus and Garmur. pls Latest video: Ferocious 6.0 Nano battleships / maruaders
Ransu Asanari AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse 350	Posted - 2015.09.15 08:47:39 - [28] - Quote Not a terrible idea. Would be a good use for the drone bay for a lot of ships where you can't afford a midslot for a long point or scrambler, but have a utility drone bay and no drone bonus. Would certainly change the meta for ship fitting a bit. They'll definitely need to be balanced in terms of warp core strength and chance to warp disrupt. One difficulty I see is that almost all of the other EWAR drones are stacking penalized - for example webbing drones. Only ECM and Neut drones are not. Whether you are warp scrambled or not is an absolute value, same as whether you are jammed or not (and can target). So if an individual warp disruption drone gave 1/3 warp core disruption (it takes 3 drones to warp disrupt unless you have warp core stabilizers), this would mean you could carry 1 flight capable of warp disruption but would synergize if others in your group had them as well and put them on the same target. This would make it somewhat useful for solo work, but easy to shake off since they only have to destroy half your drones to get out. I hope that CCP looks at the effectiveness and use of all of the Electronic Warfare Drones, because other than ECM drones, the others don't see a lot of usage. They are also fairly unbalanced because of the aforementioned stacking penalties. Good discussion on this here.
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2708	Posted - 2015.09.15 15:52:55 - [29] - Quote Baali Tekitsu wrote: Azazel The Misanthrope wrote: What if the drones had a decimated warp scramble strength, so that they had to have multiples of these drones on a target in order to have any effect at all? I like that. Or just make them have chance based scrams/no warp scram points at all. Then why not just make them gecko sized anyways. its the same thing as needing many smaller drones to get one effective point. -1 to the concept. Its 'all kinds of broken'. If you want an Anti kite drone ask for a gecko sized web drone. +1 to the idea of gecko'ing e-war drones in general. Its an idea as old as geckos themselves. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 2621	Posted - 2015.09.15 18:04:36 - [30] - Quote Daichi Yamato wrote: Baali Tekitsu wrote: Azazel The Misanthrope wrote: What if the drones had a decimated warp scramble strength, so that they had to have multiples of these drones on a target in order to have any effect at all? I like that. Or just make them have chance based scrams/no warp scram points at all. Then why not just make them gecko sized anyways. its the same thing as needing many smaller drones to get one effective point. Could be nice to have a few options: 1.) Gecko warp disruptor drone with decent range or good speed, single drone that does the job effectively 2.) Ogre warp disruptor drone with low speed and short range, yes some ships can launch 5 but they're tough to get into range so not overpowered 3.) Hammerhead warp disruptor drone in which you need all 5 to get 100% chance of 1 point strength on target, uses all drone slots but moves faster than Gecko, each drone offers 20% success chance, multiple drones from one ship against one target compounds into one effect with higher chance of success - a.) can beat Gecko because moves faster, dominates Gecko for long range use - b.) Gecko dominates for short range use because it has a decent activation range, also some ships can launch more than one Gecko, and finally Hammerheads are much more vulnerable to smartbombs 4.) Hobgoblin warp disruptor drone with 12% success chance (60% with all 5), faster moving than Hammerhead and takes less bandwidth/bay, but lower success rate and more vulnerable to smartbombs Pirate ship Nightmare, can you fathom Larger but with smaller spikes than Phantasm The Succubus looks meaner But the Revenant cleaner Seems as they get bigger, the smaller spikes they has'm

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