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Bellum Eternus Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.12.18 20:49:00 - [1] Title edited please don't bypass the profanity filter - Xorus So, I'd like to hear from all you mission running weenies out there: has anyone been probed out since the patch change? We went from dozens of "omg they're griefing me!!" whine threads to literally zero overnight. Sounds to me like the probes are now completely useless for finding targets in deadspace. If at first you don't succeed, get a bigger hammer.
Miri Tirzan Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.12.18 20:50:00 - [2] Well, no one has found me... but using probes I have found more than a few mission runners. svetlana - "whining gets you stuff. that is why humans got to the top of the food chain and all the other animals got nerfed."
Bellum Eternus Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.12.18 20:53:00 - [3] Originally by: Miri Tirzan Well, no one has found me... but using probes I have found more than a few mission runners. Could you elaborate on your successes? So far I've found zero mission runners in dead space, while otherwise I have a 100% success rate. If at first you don't succeed, get a bigger hammer.
Miss Overlord Gallente Ferrum Pugnus New Eve Order	Posted - 2006.12.18 21:30:00 - [4] mission runners are now a 100% protected species - their expensive ships protected they have WTZ and all is good in the world piracy and PVP are now dead. Thanks CCP for selling out to the protected dont shoot me unless youre an NPC type These posts represent my personal views and not those of my corp or alliance. These do not reflect offical alliance or corp views This is a disclaimer
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2006.12.18 21:36:00 - [5] Originally by: Miss Overlord mission runners are now a 100% protected species - their expensive ships protected they have WTZ and all is good in the world piracy and PVP are now dead. Thanks CCP for selling out to the protected dont shoot me unless youre an NPC type Can you stop posting negative stuff in every thread please? I dont think ive seen a positive post from you in the last week or so. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Roy Batty68	Posted - 2006.12.18 21:53:00 - [6] Originally by: Jim McGregor Originally by: Miss Overlord mission runners are now a 100% protected species - their expensive ships protected they have WTZ and all is good in the world piracy and PVP are now dead. Thanks CCP for selling out to the protected dont shoot me unless youre an NPC type Can you stop posting negative stuff in every thread please? I dont think ive seen a positive post from you in the last week or so. Negative and wrong, I might add. Astrometrics 3 Astrometrics Pinpointing 2 Astrometrics Triangulation 3 Signal Acquisition 3 Covops 3 Buzzard + 1(!) Spook probe = 4 mission runners 2 of them not via their drones. Raven and a Drake while they were in the dead space with a probe that only has sensor strength of 5... "mission runners are now a 100% protected species"... pfft People give up too easy imo. Originally by: Big Al Well, if there was a law against stupidity, the server would certainly lag less.
Miss Overlord Gallente Ferrum Pugnus New Eve Order	Posted - 2006.12.18 21:56:00 - [7] ive got 5s in the basic and 4s across the board on the subset astrometric skills. Plus covert ops 4 Not 100% but basically its harder now than it was before revelations which is saying something as it used to be on the plane etc ALso noticed ship losses have gone down = less ships being sold = industry is suffering from a lack of demand these changes have wid reaching affects that said exploration is easier so dont change that CCP because the time in versus reward out etc is about a fine balance just need to fix the ship scanning to make it easier to find mikssion runners but not to easy These posts represent my personal views and not those of my corp or alliance. These do not reflect offical alliance or corp views This is a disclaimer
Nanobotter Mk2	Posted - 2006.12.18 22:03:00 - [8] "mission runners are now a 100% protected species - their expensive ships protected they have WTZ and all is good in the world piracy and PVP are now dead. Thanks CCP for selling out to the protected dont shoot me unless youre an NPC type" Translation WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH. Oh ya btw since when was killing mission runners ever really considered pvp hahahahah. Look ferreting out a mission runner running a level 4, mean a big loss for the mission runner and potentially big windfall for the pirate, and the mission runner has almost ZERO chance of taking out he pirate. It only makes sense it should then be quite hard to locate a mission runner. Stop whining because you no longer have EZ mode.
Hoshi DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.18 22:04:00 - [9] Originally by: Roy Batty68 Negative and wrong, I might add. Astrometrics 3 Astrometrics Pinpointing 2 Astrometrics Triangulation 3 Signal Acquisition 3 Covops 3 Buzzard + 1(!) Spook probe = 4 mission runners 2 of them not via their drones. Raven and a Drake while they were in the dead space with a probe that only has sensor strength of 5... "mission runners are now a 100% protected species"... pfft People give up too easy imo. So just because you got extremely lucky and found something which you have less than 1% chance to find per scan the system is working? 0.67% for the drake and 0.94% for the raven if they where 10 au away and not using shield extenders, with SEs it might end up slightly above 1% chance. ---------------------------------------- A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.12.18 22:09:00 - [10] "So just because you got extremely lucky and found something which you have less than 1% chance to find per scan the system is working?" I'd say if he managed to find 4 separate targets each with 1% chance to find, in a single scan... then it's indication the system is broken, if anything. That's like, 0.00000001 chance of happening O.o
Roy Batty68	Posted - 2006.12.18 22:10:00 - [11] Originally by: Hoshi So just because you got extremely lucky and found something which you have less than 1% chance to find per scan the system is working? 0.67% for the drake and 0.94% for the raven if they where 10 au away and not using shield extenders, with SEs it might end up slightly above 1% chance. I'm still playing with it, and admittedly I am messing with it in a system chock full of mission runners. However, I have a feeling your numbers may be off a bit. I seem to be picking them up fairly consistantly. /shrug Originally by: Big Al Well, if there was a law against stupidity, the server would certainly lag less.
d026 Herrscher der Zeit Jagdgeschwader The Pentagram	Posted - 2006.12.18 22:11:00 - [12] if you get me in my faction/deadspace fitted cnr 1% chance to probe me seems rather high:)
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2006.12.18 22:12:00 - [13] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 18/12/2006 22:13:18 If those numbers with 1% are correct, its nerfed too much imo. Its not right if mission runners can sit around in faction ships, feeling completely safe, in the middle of low sec. Thats not how the game is designed or intended to work. There should be a element of danger in low sec and 0.0, and I dont mean 1%. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Roy Batty68	Posted - 2006.12.18 22:13:00 - [14] Originally by: j0sephine "So just because you got extremely lucky and found something which you have less than 1% chance to find per scan the system is working?" I'd say if he managed to find 4 separate targets each with 1% chance to find, in a single scan... then it's indication the system is broken, if anything. That's like, 0.00000001 chance of happening O.o Wasn't a single scan. 20 minute probe with analyze time of ~1 minute. Was 4 or 5 scans... Originally by: Big Al Well, if there was a law against stupidity, the server would certainly lag less.
d026 Herrscher der Zeit Jagdgeschwader The Pentagram	Posted - 2006.12.18 22:14:00 - [15] Edited by: d026 on 18/12/2006 22:17:14 Edited by: d026 on 18/12/2006 22:15:16 the game is also not intended that any tII fittet crap ship can kill my NPC fitted cnr everytime they manage to enter my mission. be resonable.. if you want to get me on my mission, work damn hard for it (like i worked damn hard for my cnr, dude it took me several month to first get one! and you want to get one while launching 1-2 probes wtf? are you braindead'). the reward is just to high for you if probes would work like you wish em to.. also there is always the chance to get me at the gate..
Victor Kruger	Posted - 2006.12.18 22:23:00 - [16] Well, Jim, how can you tell if the game is designed or intended this way? Are you a Dev in disguise? CCP saw where the money is, they adapted towards it. It's not the leet PvP people who bring in the cash, it's the much despised carebears. --------------- Hey, where's my portrait
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.12.18 22:26:00 - [17] Edited by: j0sephine on 18/12/2006 22:30:20 "If those numbers with 1% are correct, its nerfed too much imo. Its not right if mission runners can sit around in faction ships, feeling completely safe, in the middle of low sec. Thats not how the game is designed or intended to work. There should be a element of danger in low sec and 0.0, and I dont mean 1%." With that 1% find chance in 10 minutes 2 ships with 1 minute analysis time per pass have 20% (1 in 5) chance to locate their target. Five more minutes and it drops to more than 1 in 4 (~27%) Hardly lot of work given the target is generally easy prey loaded with very valuable loot, is it? And quite real danger. Math can be ***** like that...
Galk Gallente Autumn Tactics All the things she said	Posted - 2006.12.18 22:29:00 - [18] You guys realy only have yourselfs to blame tbh. CCP put it into easy mode, what did people do, griefed highsec missioners... ccp never admitted it flat out (do they ever) but you all saw kierons text before they ammended it out of the final patchnotes..... I don't think much of ccp over the issue, but they knew flatout it was going to hurt them sooner or later, why the knee jerk in totaly the other direction. Im in total agreement with the guys that were going around scanning out missioners in low sec before they changed the scanning, aside the off plain (which the dedicated and clever got around anyway). There was little wrong with it, you could catch the non attenutive with ease... how it should have remained. The only real issue with highsec mission scanning, ofc war targets using the near immunity of deadspace... but even thats a little weak.... you would have to be a complete idiot to travel around a highsec hub over gates in a mission ship with protential hostiles around. ______
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2006.12.18 22:30:00 - [19] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 18/12/2006 22:34:17 Originally by: j0sephine With that 1% find chance in 10 minutes 2 ships with 1 minute analysis time per pass have 20% (1 in 5) chance to locate their target. Hardly lot of work given the target is generally easy prey loaded with very valuable loot, is it? And quite real danger. Math can be *** like that... That sounds pretty decent then. Good. :) Originally by:** Victor Kruger Well, Jim, how can you tell if the game is designed or intended this way? Are you a Dev in disguise? If I was a dev, I would camp Tuxford daily. Quote: CCP saw where the money is, they adapted towards it. It's not the leet PvP people who bring in the cash, it's the much despised carebears. Like j0sephine posted, the chance seems pretty Ok at the moment, so I guess everyone is happy. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Nicocat Caldari New Age Solutions	Posted - 2006.12.18 22:39:00 - [20] Originally by: j0sephine Edited by: j0sephine on 18/12/2006 22:30:20 "If those numbers with 1% are correct, its nerfed too much imo. Its not right if mission runners can sit around in faction ships, feeling completely safe, in the middle of low sec. Thats not how the game is designed or intended to work. There should be a element of danger in low sec and 0.0, and I dont mean 1%." With that 1% find chance in 10 minutes 2 ships with 1 minute analysis time per pass have 20% (1 in 5) chance to locate their target. Five more minutes and it drops to more than 1 in 4 (~27%) Hardly lot of work given the target is generally easy prey loaded with very valuable loot, is it? And quite real danger. Math can be ***** like that... It's actually more annoying than just multiplying 1% * 20. Let's see if I remember stats... 99% chance of failure for every scan. That's .99^20 = .8179, or 81.79% chance ALL 20 scans fail, leaving you with an 18.21% chance to scan someone. Close to 20, indeed, but not quite. Hey, you said math can be a ***. I'm just exposing how *y it is =P ---------------------------- Originally by:** Splagada SEED ME DADDY WTB: Friggin' portrait
MrTripps Gallente	Posted - 2006.12.18 22:50:00 - [21] Originally by: Miss Overlord mission runners are now a 100% protected species Once again MO wins the Dread Pirate Crybaby award. Whaaa! I can't go sneak up on someone already aggroed by a gazillion NPCs anymore. Most people would sooner die than think; in fact, they do so. - Bertrand Russell
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.12.18 22:54:00 - [22] "That's .99^20 = .8179, or 81.79% chance ALL 20 scans fail, leaving you with an 18.21% chance to scan someone. Close to 20, indeed, but not quite." Yes; i should've put the ~ in front of that 20, was too lazy to post the exact numbers ^^
Magnus Card Caldari	Posted - 2006.12.18 22:58:00 - [23] Originally by: Miss Overlord ive got 5s in the basic and 4s across the board on the subset astrometric skills. Plus covert ops 4 Not 100% but basically its harder now than it was before revelations which is saying something as it used to be on the plane etc ALso noticed ship losses have gone down = less ships being sold = industry is suffering from a lack of demand these changes have wid reaching affects that said exploration is easier so dont change that CCP because the time in versus reward out etc is about a fine balance just need to fix the ship scanning to make it easier to find mikssion runners but not to easy So what if its really hard, when the ship you are hunting down is worth billions the difficulty should be really high. Remember that risk or difficutly vs reward that so many people whine about? This is yours.
Roy Batty68	Posted - 2006.12.18 23:03:00 - [24] Just probed down a drake with an accuracy of 11km deviation. Drake had no drones deployed and was in the middle of a "deadspace". Was one i've never seen before so don't know details. Pilot wouldn't answer my convo so couldn't get mission name. Maybe it's an exploration site but I don't think so. Anyway, I think what I'm seeing is not all deadspaces are created equal. I wouldn't be surprised if some of them are not set like CCP intends. Originally by: Big Al Well, if there was a law against stupidity, the server would certainly lag less.
Fester Addams Minmatar	Posted - 2006.12.18 23:26:00 - [25] Ok, we have a bunch of people who claim that the chance to find a mission runner is too low, fine, lets spell it out. Lets hear from the people that want to hunt mission runners, how easy and how much time should you have to put into finding a mission runner? It seems like people are claiming the chance is about 1% per scan now (providing someone is in scan range). How high a chance should it be and in what timeline? (lets for the sake of the argument say you are using the best probes and with lev 4 minimum in all related skills) 5% in 10 min? 20% in 5 min? 100% in 1 min? 1% may seem like a small chance but as a scan cycle (acording to an earlier post) is 1 minute and the average lev 4 mission takes, what... 30min to complete that meens you have 30 chances to find one runner. If you pick a good spot there will in all probability be multiple possible runners to find with a single scan (I doubt the hunters are picky about who they find) and thus they will have multiple chances of 1% to find somthing. lets say there are 3 possible targets to find and you do 30 scans for them what is the real chance that you find atleast 1 target? You do the math, to me this is just a post stating that the hunters dont have the patience to hunt. I hunt in real life, I have an average of 1 kill per week, thats roughly 1 kill per 60 hours of hunting and that is in reality a fair time ratio for the game I hunt. Im not saying that probes should give you 1 target per 60 hours of hunting but I am saying that hunting mission runners should be a dedicated profession that weeds out the slackers and incompetent. At present aparently this is what it does as people are finding targets but a vocal few whine.
Trotski II Rasta Tropical Club	Posted - 2006.12.18 23:32:00 - [26] Originally by: Magnus Card Originally by: Miss Overlord ive got 5s in the basic and 4s across the board on the subset astrometric skills. Plus covert ops 4 Not 100% but basically its harder now than it was before revelations which is saying something as it used to be on the plane etc ALso noticed ship losses have gone down = less ships being sold = industry is suffering from a lack of demand these changes have wid reaching affects that said exploration is easier so dont change that CCP because the time in versus reward out etc is about a fine balance just need to fix the ship scanning to make it easier to find mikssion runners but not to easy So what if its really hard, when the ship you are hunting down is worth billions the difficulty should be really high. Remember that risk or difficutly vs reward that so many people whine about? This is yours. Plus if there¦s 2 or more runners on same system then chances start to increase.
Shayla Sh'inlux Gallente	Posted - 2006.12.18 23:37:00 - [27] Edited by: Shayla Sh''inlux on 18/12/2006 23:41:14 It's not 1%. It's far less. Far, far less. About 30 minutes after the patch we found a Ferox in deadspace and we were like "oh that's not so bad". Haven't found a ship ever since and we probed a LOT. In fact, I have been sitting next to my own alt in deadspace. Got lvl 4 Covert, 5 Astro and the new skills lvl 3 and 4. Did 50 scans. Zilch. Zero. No results. Mind you, I knew exactly where the target was. Then we tried overlapping probed. A corp mate of mine actually went through the trouble of getting a mission where a point existed so you could have 3 probes overlap. Their strengths are supposed to get added. 20 scans, no results. Zero. Zilch. Probing deadspace is borked and missions are now as good as instanced. Anyone saying otherwise is either very, very lucky or a missioneer trying to protect his invulnerability. Edit: let me add I don't MIND it being hard. In fact, I liked the old system where you actually had to know what you were doing and even then it often took 15-20 minutes to find someone. Scanning down deadspace is now "hard" as in you just have to spam the analyze button for 20 minutes and hope you get really lucky and if you don't get lucky spam the button more. Originally by: "Cy4n1d3" You can't PVP with 4 mids.
Tharim Code-Blue	Posted - 2006.12.18 23:56:00 - [28] Originally by: Miss Overlord mission runners are now a 100% protected species - their expensive ships protected they have WTZ and all is good in the world piracy and PVP are now dead. Thanks CCP for selling out to the protected dont shoot me unless youre an NPC type wts clue and IQ. Looks like you need it. Originally by: Sharkbait what queue are you stuck in. logging into the character selection page, logging into game, or jumping somewhere?
d026 Herrscher der Zeit Jagdgeschwader The Pentagram	Posted - 2006.12.18 23:57:00 - [29] Quote: Scanning down deadspace is now "hard" as in you just have to spam the analyze button for 20 minutes and hope you get really lucky and if you don't get lucky spam the button more. welcome to the grind finally:)
Wrayeth Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.12.19 00:06:00 - [30] Originally by: d026 welcome to the grind finally:) Grind != good. -Wrayeth "Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!" Might As well Train Another Race
Bellum Eternus Gallente CRICE Corporation Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.12.19 00:12:00 - [31] Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux Edited by: Shayla Sh''inlux on 18/12/2006 23:41:14 It's not 1%. It's far less. Far, far less. About 30 minutes after the patch we found a Ferox in deadspace and we were like "oh that's not so bad". Haven't found a ship ever since and we probed a LOT. In fact, I have been sitting next to my own alt in deadspace. Got lvl 4 Covert, 5 Astro and the new skills lvl 3 and 4. Did 50 scans. Zilch. Zero. No results. Mind you, I knew exactly where the target was. Then we tried overlapping probed. A corp mate of mine actually went through the trouble of getting a mission where a point existed so you could have 3 probes overlap. Their strengths are supposed to get added. 20 scans, no results. Zero. Zilch. Probing deadspace is borked and missions are now as good as instanced. Anyone saying otherwise is either very, very lucky or a missioneer trying to protect his invulnerability. Edit: let me add I don't MIND it being hard. In fact, I liked the old system where you actually had to know what you were doing and even then it often took 15-20 minutes to find someone. Scanning down deadspace is now "hard" as in you just have to spam the analyze button for 20 minutes and hope you get really lucky and if you don't get lucky spam the button more. This is pretty much what I'm experiencing. Total crap. If at first you don't succeed, get a bigger hammer.
d026 Herrscher der Zeit Jagdgeschwader The Pentagram	Posted - 2006.12.19 00:14:00 - [32] sure but everybody else has to:9
Roy Batty68	Posted - 2006.12.19 00:35:00 - [33] Well, to go over my "facts" again: There was something off with the raven because it registered as a red dot on the system map, meaning it's deviation/accuracy was too good. It was one of my first finds of the evening and I didn't bother correlating it to the scan result to get the exact number. If Hoshi's numbers are anywhere close that shouldn't have even been mathmatically possible. Maybe I got lucky and caught them warping in/out and later warping to that point took me straight to the deadspace gate... Don't know. But seems too weird to use as anything conclusive. The drake I consistently got all night. It was as if it was just parked at an SS but warping to it showed deadspace like stuff. Looked like a mission deadspace, no gate to it though. Ultra-fast silos, merchant quarters, a merchant warp gate structure... 10 month old SWA pilot apparently farming it, wouldn't answer my convo invite for details. Two other results were based on drone hits. One a hammerhead II, the other an ogre I. This corresponds with my experiences a night or so ago when it seemed like I was only seeing hits on tech 2 drones in deadspaces. Given that it's a busy mission system, it might just be coincedence. Me getting hits on abandoned drones that happen to be close to an existing mission and CCP's funky deadspace codes funnels me to the gate. I don't think so though, because I'm pretty keen on finding abandoned t2 drones and I didn't see them again tonight. So in conclusion, I wanted to post here that it is indeed possible, even for someone with mediocre skills, to scan down mission runners. Now, after going through a mess of spook and fathom probes, I'm not so sure. I'm left with the impression that perhaps others are right and the overall system is a bit too hard and what I've seen is more likely a few anomoly situations. The only thing I can say for certain is... My god you people leave alot of drones behind! I've collected so many the past few days I might as well be producing them. Originally by: Big Al Well, if there was a law against stupidity, the server would certainly lag less.
Hoshi DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.19 00:47:00 - [34] Originally by: Roy Batty68 Well, to go over my "facts" again: There was something off with the raven because it registered as a red dot on the system map, meaning it's deviation/accuracy was too good. It's a bit strange how the did the thing, while the effective signal strength used for the chance and accuracy calcs used signal strength / 100 the full signal strength is shown in the scanner window and the color is connected to what the scanner window show (as it is just an UI thing). So if when you find the target the window lists 4.7 signal strength in reality it only had 0.047 if it was in deadspace. ---------------------------------------- A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations
Tanis Bastar Caldari Interstitial Incorporated	Posted - 2006.12.19 01:14:00 - [35] I am one of the fools that likes to rat and mine in low sec. The rewards are crap, but I enjoy that I have to watch out for and evade the pirate types. Can someone explain to me why mission runners, who make a very large multiple of what I can make, now have zero risk from player aggression? If that's what they want, why can't they stay in hi-sec? And obviously with WTZ it is now about risk-free to travel within lo-sec as well.
Jane Vladmir Gallente Slacker Industries	Posted - 2006.12.19 01:46:00 - [36] J0sephine and Nicocat thanks for posting. Cleared things up for me and probably a number of other players. cheers
Lucky Fonz	Posted - 2006.12.19 01:49:00 - [37] I never thought i'd say this but yeah, before Revelations it was easier to scan down mission runners than it is now given the tools we had then compared to what we have now. I'd rather deal with off-plane triangulation than pitiful scan strength of 3d probes. At least before, it took skill to hunt someone down. Now its just plain dumb luck.
Kryssa Fordring	Posted - 2006.12.19 02:36:00 - [38] To be honest, if they hadn't nerfed warp stabs in response to the "pirate" whining, it wouldn't matter if scanning was a 100% success. But to be fair, warping in on a mission runner who is tanking the agro from a L4 mission and warp scrambling them is a bit "ez-mode". Since the stab nerf, mission runners are pretty much forced to throw away their stabs giving them ABSOLUTELY NO CHOICE wether to fight or flee when a griefer crashes their mission. Reinstate the old stabs and you probably won't see much complaining about mission griefers ("pirates").
Soporo	Posted - 2006.12.19 04:43:00 - [39] Translation: My E-Peen is shrinking due to less ganking of Missioners in PVE fitted ships while thay are being attacked by 42965 rats in Blockade. shrugs Whatever. Do you cupcakes RECALL what happened to LowSec recently when you could scan em out in mere minutes when Rev hit? Do you? Your targets VANISHED, as in DISSAPEARED. As in LowSec got even MORE lame than it is now. Did that bother you? Then what happened? "Piracy is dead, nerf Empire, CCP hates us, change everyone elses style but mine, blah blah blah." I'm sorry but the bottom line is, the easier it gets for you in LowSec, the HARDER it will get for you in time. Is this difficult to understand? Jesus Christ, get a grip and get em at the gate, figure out some other way to get them, WarDec everyone in sight, go to 0.0 and shoot people indiscriminately, WarDec n00b Corps in Empire, raise hell, have fun, even if you have to work for it.
Nikla Uthaan Caldari	Posted - 2006.12.19 05:05:00 - [40] Funnily enough I rekon this is just the typical knee-jerk reaction to any change in eve, and the fact this involves scanning out mission runners bears no impact on people complaining. For the first year in which i played EVE (started just before RMR), scanning out and killing mission runners was practically unheard of. Even though it could be done, nobody did it, it was quite difficult, but the important part,, NOBODY CARED! Honestly, people really didnt care about not being able to easily scan out mish runners. There was the usual gripes and groans that comes with any trade which someone feels is overpowered in one way or another (heck,, I've heard every trade rubbished as being overpowered by nearly all sides). What's happened is, post kali, it's suddenly become incredibly easy to scan them out. A couple people spread the word and before you know it, everyone's playing pop the mish runner. A lot of negative feedback, flame wars and spam posts later, and CCP steps down the simplicity a bit. Much the same with any change in game mechanics, someones going to cry 'This sucks, i cant play so i cancel my sub', followed by a 'Can I have your stuff?'. All that's happening now is that wave of people who refuse to adapt to the new environs. Mish runners refused to do it when they became threatened, and the new wave of mission pirates refuse to do it when the backpedal occured. In reality, no game mechanics have changed overall, so why does everyone give a toss now when they didnt before? ----------------- One word,, emo,,, The Mishing is an ethnic group in the districts of North Lakhimpur, Sonitput, Dhemaji, Dibrugarh, Sibsagar, Jorhat, Golaghat, Tinsukia of Assam.
SN3263827 The Black Rabbits	Posted - 2006.12.19 05:18:00 - [41] Originally by: Roy Batty68 The drake I consistently got all night. It was as if it was just parked at an SS but warping to it showed deadspace like stuff. Looked like a mission deadspace, no gate to it though. That isn't Deadspace, so its irrelevant. Unless you land at a gate/navigational beacon when you scan, you're scanning someone in open space. _____________________________________________
SN3263827 The Black Rabbits	Posted - 2006.12.19 05:27:00 - [42] Originally by: Kryssa Fordring Since the stab nerf, mission runners are pretty much forced to throw away their stabs giving them ABSOLUTELY NO CHOICE wether to fight or flee when a griefer crashes their mission. We scanned down mission runners pre-Kali daily and I can't remember a single one getting away from us unless we landed a out of scramble range. The WCS changes have nothing to do with this issue at all. Even if WCS hadn't changed, we would have just had mission runners complaining that they were having to fit so many WCS to survive the probers that their fittings were borked. I've said it before and I've said it again : I welcome the fact that probing isn't as easy as it was for those few days. It was ridiculous, but now probing is impossible even for those who mastered it pre-kali. It doesn't take any skill, it takes blind luck, and lots of it. _____________________________________________
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2006.12.19 05:32:00 - [43] Just as a question, what "defense" does a mission runner or ratter have to probes? Do they have a module to fit in a slot? Do they have a rig to avoid detection? Do they have skills that decrease their detectability? Anything that can even partially help but not completely nerf combat ability so they can still run missions? Until there are effective counters there has to be inherent difficulty to the probe system and its ability to locate players. Give us modules that adversely effect your scanning ability and then CCP can loosen the probe system as we have a counter and its up to us to use it. <-----------> MMORPG == Massively Moronic Online Raw Powergaming Grief fests.... http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=426616 LowSec != NoSec
Nikla Uthaan Caldari	Posted - 2006.12.19 05:47:00 - [44] Just bear in mind, until their nerf, what was the counter to WCS? Nothing iirc,,, tis why i always fit them in the old days. ----------------- One word,, emo,,, The Mishing is an ethnic group in the districts of North Lakhimpur, Sonitput, Dhemaji, Dibrugarh, Sibsagar, Jorhat, Golaghat, Tinsukia of Assam.
Shameless Avenger	Posted - 2006.12.19 05:49:00 - [45] Wait a sec... is the OP whining about the lack of whining?? That's a new level...
Aphotic Raven Gallente E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.12.19 05:50:00 - [46] Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux Edited by: Shayla Sh''inlux on 18/12/2006 23:41:14 It's not 1%. It's far less. Far, far less. About 30 minutes after the patch we found a Ferox in deadspace and we were like "oh that's not so bad". Haven't found a ship ever since and we probed a LOT. In fact, I have been sitting next to my own alt in deadspace. Got lvl 4 Covert, 5 Astro and the new skills lvl 3 and 4. Did 50 scans. Zilch. Zero. No results. Mind you, I knew exactly where the target was. Then we tried overlapping probed. A corp mate of mine actually went through the trouble of getting a mission where a point existed so you could have 3 probes overlap. Their strengths are supposed to get added. 20 scans, no results. Zero. Zilch. Probing deadspace is borked and missions are now as good as instanced. Anyone saying otherwise is either very, very lucky or a missioneer trying to protect his invulnerability. Edit: let me add I don't MIND it being hard. In fact, I liked the old system where you actually had to know what you were doing and even then it often took 15-20 minutes to find someone. Scanning down deadspace is now "hard" as in you just have to spam the analyze button for 20 minutes and hope you get really lucky and if you don't get lucky spam the button more. Thats the way eves going.... chance > skill. I never used probes but i was quite proficient with the regular scanner for hunting out safespots to be probed... a lot of skill is being hacked out of eve for no apparent reason. The devs also stated that they were never going to make eve too simple in reply to someone asking for gangs to automatically become fleets when enough people were involved... how the ** is it making the game to easy to not give people migranes working out who has best leadership skills... the gang system is ** and so is the gang interface (it likes to mate with the drone interface.. or is this another nerf to drones?). Having bad interfaces and terrible control systems does not make the game harder, it just makes it more frustrating and like everything in eve at the moment... makes the blobs stronger and the underdogs weaker. Quote: Melicien Tetro: I tried to fight a shark with a pistol underwater once, and I'll be ed if he didn't laugh at me and eat me. Sharks need a ***** nerf. True story
Mnengli Noiliffe	Posted - 2006.12.19 05:52:00 - [47] if you have found something with 0.00000000001% of probability then perhaps your formulas are a bitt off. Totally wrong, in other words. Not that you were uber lucky. so basically pirates should stop whining, the system is just about fine now.
SN3263827 The Black Rabbits	Posted - 2006.12.19 05:53:00 - [48] Originally by: Soporo I'm sorry but the bottom line is, the easier it gets for you in LowSec, the HARDER it will get for you in time. Is this difficult to understand? Not even close to true. Yes, those few bloody days were insane and if it had stayed that way lowsec would be dead. In every thread I have posted in on this subject I have said probing was too easy. There was no challenge. However, there must be a balance between "certain" and "impossible". This isn't it. If probing was successful more often than now, but less often than Revelations 1.0, then there would be less mission runners in lowsec, yes, but there would still be some. Quote: Jesus Christ, get a grip and get em at the gate, figure out some other way to get them, Get them at the gate? Ok, lets assume for a moment that Johnny MissionRunner is given a mission by his agent in a different system. What does Johnny do? He removes his low slot modules and pops them in his cargo hold. He then fits 5 warp core stabs to his CNR. On arriving in his mission sytem, he docks and refits for the mission. He then uses the instaundock bookmark he has for just such occasions and then warps directly to his mission. When he's finished, he uses WTZ to dock, refits his travel setup and returns to his agent to tell her all is well and please give me the money. There is absolutely no way a mission runner should die in lowsec at present. Quote: WarDec everyone in sight Since day one our corp has not had an empty war slots. However, since we are pirates our targets hide in high sec (except Momentum, but we're friends again now). Some of them disband, but that's life. Quote: go to 0.0 and shoot people indiscriminately We do, thanks. However, Low Security Space is supposed to be low security. People should not be impervious to attack, as mission runners (at least those with any sense) currently are. Quote: WarDec n00b Corps in Empire See above. I like that of your 5 "ideas" one is untenable given the existence of WCS and instaundocks, 1 involves leaving lowsec (which defeats the purpose of being a lowsec pirate), 1 is vaguer than a stoned Alzheimer's patient and the other 2 are really just one idea that is of no use. Quote: raise hell, have fun, even if you have to work for it. I don't mind working for my fun. I loved the suspense pre-kali of waiting to see whether we would get a useable result from the skilled probers in our corp. What I really can't stand is this idea that a random system is somehow better than a system that requires skill. If "working for it" involves clicking a button until I am lucky enough to get a useable result, then count me out, especially as I'll likely be paying for my subscription courtesy of my pension plan before I do get a result. _____________________________________________
SN3263827 The Black Rabbits	Posted - 2006.12.19 06:01:00 - [49] Originally by: Nikla Uthaan What's happened is, post kali, it's suddenly become incredibly easy to scan them out. A couple people spread the word and before you know it, everyone's playing pop the mish runner. A lot of negative feedback, flame wars and spam posts later, and CCP steps down the simplicity a bit. {...} In reality, no game mechanics have changed overall, so why does everyone give a toss now when they didnt before? The game mechanics have changed immensely. Pre-Kali, a skilled prober could probe out a mission runner in 5-10 minutes. Guaranteed. Unless the mission runner completed their mission in that time, they were fair game. Kali comes along, and everyone and his dog with astrometrics level 3 could find mission runners in 2 minutes. Guaranteed. Kali 1.1 arrives and that time is reduced to 30 seconds. Kali 1.2 arrives and you get one result in almost a week. If that isn't a change in mechanics, I don't know what is. _____________________________________________
AKULA UrQuan Caldari STK Scientific Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.12.19 06:17:00 - [50] Edited by: AKULA UrQuan on 19/12/2006 06:17:07 Mission runners can't leave drones out for too long in low sec areas. Originally by: Wrangler Win ME is more a some sort of virus than a OS..
Watje	Posted - 2006.12.19 06:17:00 - [51] Edited by: Watje on 19/12/2006 06:17:51 Originally by: Victor Kruger Well, Jim, how can you tell if the game is designed or intended this way? Are you a Dev in disguise? CCP saw where the money is, they adapted towards it. It's not the leet PvP people who bring in the cash, it's the much despised carebears. Correct, pvp players can play this game for free
SN3263827 The Black Rabbits	Posted - 2006.12.19 06:23:00 - [52] Originally by: AKULA UrQuan Edited by: AKULA UrQuan on 19/12/2006 06:17:07 Mission runners can't leave drones out for too long in low sec areas. True, but are you really suggesting that what is obviouslky a bug is somehow a solution? Caldari pilots can quite happily simply not use drones, where does that leave us then? _____________________________________________
Soporo	Posted - 2006.12.19 06:32:00 - [53] Quote: Get them at the gate? Ok, lets assume for a moment that Johnny MissionRunner is given a mission by his agent in a different system.What does Johnny do? He removes his low slot modules and pops them in his cargo hold. He then fits 5 warp core stabs to his CNR.On arriving in his mission sytem, he docks and refits for the mission. He then uses the instaundock bookmark he has for just such occasions and then warps directly to his mission. When he's finished, he uses WTZ to dock, refits his travel setup and returns to his agent to tell her all is well and please give me the money. Can't this be resolved by ganging and mutliple Scram at the incoming Gate?
AKULA UrQuan Caldari STK Scientific Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.12.19 06:35:00 - [54] Originally by: SN3263827 Caldari pilots can quite happily simply not use drones, where does that leave us then? In need of a healthy dose of "persistence". Afterall you are chaseing after ships that'll cough up an easy billion in loot. Originally by: Wrangler Win ME is more a some sort of virus than a OS..
SN3263827 The Black Rabbits	Posted - 2006.12.19 06:48:00 - [55] Originally by: Soporo Can't this be resolved by ganging and mutliple Scram at the incoming Gate? Yes, it could (though requiring 6 scramblers to kill one mission runner is a little excessive, don't you think?). On the other hand, why should we need 6 scramblers to kill a mission runner in a Low Security System? Do you really want us to blob? I know I don't. Quote: I still honestly think this is true.The easier it is to Pirate, the more dangerous it will be, therefore fewer people will risk it, yes? I didn't disagree with you. _____________________________________________
SN3263827 The Black Rabbits	Posted - 2006.12.19 06:52:00 - [56] Originally by: AKULA UrQuan Originally by: SN3263827 Caldari pilots can quite happily simply not use drones, where does that leave us then? In need of a healthy dose of "persistence". Afterall you are chaseing after ships that'll cough up an easy billion in loot. Oh please. You think that ships worth a billion isk grow on trees? They aren't all that common, at least not in lowsec. A typical payout (bounty or loot) is 50mil. I have sat in a safespot for hours at a time probing since Wednesday, and got no results. Zero. Nada. Zilch. If more persistence than that is required for 50mil then the system needs to be changed. _____________________________________________
Mnengli Noiliffe	Posted - 2006.12.19 07:08:00 - [57] Edited by: Mnengli Noiliffe on 19/12/2006 07:16:14 Edited by: Mnengli Noiliffe on 19/12/2006 07:09:21 Originally by: SN3263827 Originally by: AKULA UrQuan Edited by: AKULA UrQuan on 19/12/2006 06:17:07 Mission runners can't leave drones out for too long in low sec areas. True, but are you really suggesting that what is obviouslky a bug is somehow a solution? Caldari pilots can quite happily simply not use drones, where does that leave us then? ohnoes, you don't mean somewhere in Essence do you? oh and about that navy raven with 5 stabs, its not that much as long as they are t1 stabs.. fit 3 scrams or something. on scanning, well since some people in this thread where rather successful and others were not at finding mission runners, maybe you should do some research, and learn being successful as well.
Solant Minmatar C A P S U L E Edge of Sanity	Posted - 2006.12.19 07:24:00 - [58] Originally by: d026 if you get me in my faction/deadspace fitted cnr 1% chance to probe me seems rather high:) this just in: lowsec is not safe.ever. it never has been, it never will be, mission running or no. stop whining about how doomed you are if your cnr gets picked up on probes- if you cant afford to fly it in lowsec, it shouldnt be there.
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2006.12.19 07:51:00 - [59] Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby Just as a question, what "defense" does a mission runner or ratter have to probes? Do they have a module to fit in a slot? Do they have a rig to avoid detection? Do they have skills that decrease their detectability? Anything that can even partially help but not completely nerf combat ability so they can still run missions? Until there are effective counters there has to be inherent difficulty to the probe system and its ability to locate players. Give us modules that adversely effect your scanning ability and then CCP can loosen the probe system as we have a counter and its up to us to use it. As far as modules go, ECCM and Sensor Backup Arrays reduce the chance of getting scanned. There are other counters aside from modules too: high sensor strength, low signature, and the early warning systems, Local and your directional scanner. I could go on, but all you needed was a couple of modules to give your permission to CCP to "loosen the probe system." I'm glad that's sorted out anyway. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Kryssa Fordring	Posted - 2006.12.19 07:54:00 - [60] Originally by: SN3263827 Originally by: Kryssa Fordring Since the stab nerf, mission runners are pretty much forced to throw away their stabs giving them ABSOLUTELY NO CHOICE wether to fight or flee when a griefer crashes their mission. The WCS changes have nothing to do with this issue at all. It has more to do with it than you might think. Then again, if the only way you can PvP successfully is to gank a mission runner who already has the cards stacked against them you probably DON'T think much anyway.
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2006.12.19 07:57:00 - [61] Originally by: Nikla Uthaan Just bear in mind, until their nerf, what was the counter to WCS? Nothing iirc,,, tis why i always fit them in the old days. No, WCS were the counter to Scramblers. Scramblers == Offense, WCS == defense against them. The "counter" to WCS is to mount more the same or more points in scramblers than the oponent has in WCs. <-----------> MMORPG == Massively Moronic Online Raw Powergaming Grief fests.... http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=426616 LowSec != NoSec
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2006.12.19 08:06:00 - [62] Originally by: Tsanse Kinske As far as modules go, ECCM and Sensor Backup Arrays reduce the chance of getting scanned. There are other counters aside from modules too: high sensor strength, low signature, and the early warning systems, Local and your directional scanner. I could go on, but all you needed was a couple of modules to give your permission to CCP to "loosen the probe system." I'm glad that's sorted out anyway. High Sensor strength, "early warning" (whatever you mean by that), local, directional scanners, etc are not counters to the new system, they are worthless when you are already being pounded on by 50+ ships in a mission. The overview is already saturated by what you are fighting. Low signature, true. But to reduce signature you are reducing your shield capabilities and killing your ability to tank 50+ ships worth of damage. I did say specifically something that didn't interfere with our combat abilities, meaning beyond loosing that slot (given, you lose a slot to scan too so that would be fair). Expecting us to drop our shields to unmanageable levels to avoid detection is not an option; all it does is gets us killed by NPCs instead of pieRATes. ECCM is active and no description I have ever read says anything about it working against probes; jamming targetting has little to nothing to do with interfering with the ability to locate. Same with backup sensor arrays. If either of these are functional in keeping a probe from detecting then the descriptions really need to be changed to reflect that, and in that case I would agree that it is a potential module for a counter. But to be effective teh cap useage must be lowered to allow the ship to run them continiously for the hour or longer that level 4 missions run. And the ability to use ECCM that long will be even worse for balance, would it not? I am actually curious as to options, but haven't found any practical ones yet that don't kill a PvE setup. <-----------> MMORPG == Massively Moronic Online Raw Powergaming Grief fests.... http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=426616 LowSec != NoSec
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2006.12.19 09:01:00 - [63] Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby Originally by: Tsanse Kinske As far as modules go, ECCM and Sensor Backup Arrays reduce the chance of getting scanned. There are other counters aside from modules too: high sensor strength, low signature, and the early warning systems, Local and your directional scanner. I could go on, but all you needed was a couple of modules to give your permission to CCP to "loosen the probe system." I'm glad that's sorted out anyway. High Sensor strength, "early warning" (whatever you mean by that), local, directional scanners, etc are not counters to the new system, they are worthless when you are already being pounded on by 50+ ships in a mission. The overview is already saturated by what you are fighting. Low signature, true. But to reduce signature you are reducing your shield capabilities and killing your ability to tank 50+ ships worth of damage. I did say specifically something that didn't interfere with our combat abilities, meaning beyond loosing that slot (given, you lose a slot to scan too so that would be fair). Expecting us to drop our shields to unmanageable levels to avoid detection is not an option; all it does is gets us killed by NPCs instead of pieRATes. ECCM is active and no description I have ever read says anything about it working against probes; jamming targetting has little to nothing to do with interfering with the ability to locate. Same with backup sensor arrays. If either of these are functional in keeping a probe from detecting then the descriptions really need to be changed to reflect that, and in that case I would agree that it is a potential module for a counter. But to be effective teh cap useage must be lowered to allow the ship to run them continiously for the hour or longer that level 4 missions run. And the ability to use ECCM that long will be even worse for balance, would it not? I am actually curious as to options, but haven't found any practical ones yet that don't kill a PvE setup. You know when you said "Just as a question, what "defense" does a mission runner or ratter have to probes?" I actually thought there was a chance you were curious about the point. Now I doubt it, but here goes anyway... ECCM and Sensor Backups reduce your signal size by increasing your sensor strength. Signal Size = Signature Radius / Sensor Strength. You can find this information in Hoshi's guide and in the patch notes. The cap use of ECCM is miniscule for a big ship by the way. Using the scanner is inconvenient at first, but not so bad once you get used to it. With the changes to Deadspace probeing, it's not like you have to hammer on it constantly. Local? If someone doesn't pay attention to local in LowSec, they deserve what they get. That's basic, and it shouldn't even need to be argued. You don't like reducing your shields? How about going with less extenders and more resistance mods, boosters, rechargers, or even Armor Tanking, none of which increase your signature. Now are you just going to reflexively find reasons to say all of those options aren't good enough for you because they don't suit your agenda, or are you going to take advantage of them? * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.12.19 09:27:00 - [64] Originally by: Roy Batty68 "mission runners are now a 100% protected species"... pfft People give up too easy imo. Hey, they're "piwates". They're not interested if it's not ridiculously easy and 100% safe for them.
Ishana Minmatar The Black Rabbits	Posted - 2006.12.19 09:28:00 - [65] Originally by: Kryssa Fordring Originally by: SN3263827 Originally by: Kryssa Fordring Since the stab nerf, mission runners are pretty much forced to throw away their stabs giving them ABSOLUTELY NO CHOICE wether to fight or flee when a griefer crashes their mission. The WCS changes have nothing to do with this issue at all. It has more to do with it than you might think. Then again, if the only way you can PvP successfully is to gank a mission runner who already has the cards stacked against them you probably DON'T think much anyway. It's so funny to see the idiots ammong the mission runners insult some of the better PvPers in the game, just because they don;t want to be blown up in low-sec or 0.0. Get a clue will you plz, or just STFU. _________________________________________________________ Please resize your signature to the limits specified in the forum rules, thanks. -wystler ([email protected])
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.12.19 09:51:00 - [66] Well, it's simple game balance math. - it can easily take an hour (hell, it can take many hours) to do a lvl4 combat mission. - The harder lvl4 combat missions aren't totally trivial to do, the dps is very high. Since it's very near to impossible to fit vs the harder lvl4s and effective pvp at the same time, as a result if the mission runner is found by a pirate while in the middle of a mission, he'll almost certainly die -- the pirate holds all the cards here, and has the help of N high-dps NPCs to help him. It's no contest. - you can abort belt ratting or mining easily (just safespot and return when the coast is clear). Doing this with a mission is a lot more problematic... if you safespot every time a hostile enters the system you'll spend your life in warp and moving between the mission gates :) - mission running isn't all that profitable, isk/hour wise. It loses out to 0.0 ratting in almost all cases, for example. I'm not saying it's unprofitable, of course, but the days of easy isk from combat missions has been over for a year at least. So, in order to keep risk/reward in balance, probing low-sec mission runners must be so difficult that there is only a relatively small chance of finding them within an hour. Otherwise missions will just not be worth the risk, and lowsec will be empty, and pirates will (again) start whining about CCP killing their playstyle. :) It's pretty simple. According to what I hear, the balance is close to what it should be, now. Mission runners are very hard to probe, but they will be easy kills to those who have the patiance, skills and luck to do it. The "want easy kills and isk for no effort" crowd will have to find other employment, sorry. Arguably, it was better before Kali, where you needed lots of rl skill to probe mission runners -- but the people who had that skill could get big rewards. Now it's more a matter of chance and "grind". ... but my point is that probing can't be made much easier, otherwise the mission runners will vanish. Ship loss to pirates during missions has to be very rare, otherwise it's just not worth it (considering the NPC difficulty, time required and isk rewards).
Xeerix Sh'inlux	Posted - 2006.12.19 10:45:00 - [67] Edited by: Xeerix Sh''inlux on 19/12/2006 10:46:15 Skills have nothing to do with probing. Patience and luck, sure. And missions are still way too profitable and usually beat ratting in nulsec unless the nulsec ratter gets lucky with faction spawns and loot. Edit: stupid alt...
Amarria Lightwielder N.A.G.A Corporation	Posted - 2006.12.19 10:47:00 - [68] I've been trying out probes on a test subject in a mission, he was within 5 au, i used 5au probes, i tried to scan him like 50 times (not kidding) and no returns. Then sometimes I would get a return and it just warped me to the middle of nowhere? :( -- -- Sound in EVE
KillerDream	Posted - 2006.12.19 11:02:00 - [69] I have jumped into a few missions, its nice to surprise the mission runners and take their salvage I have not done a single mission this week as I am finding these probes quite interesting, however I have spent over 50mil on bpo`s and skills for all the different probes. Nerfed, I dont think so :)
Crumplecorn Gallente Aerial Boundaries Inc. Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.19 11:16:00 - [70] Wow, CCP make a change that eliminates whines and there are whines about the lack of whines. I <3 this forum ---------- IBTL \o/ EVE is upside down! WTZ+Slower Warp=Win
Roy Batty68	Posted - 2006.12.19 11:46:00 - [71] I think the end result is this: If you are in a system jam packed with mission runners, you have a fairly low % chance of finding 1 or two mission runners. If you are in a system with pretty low activity your chance of finding someone goes down to practically nothing. If you are looking for a specific mission runner you might as well forget it. Too me, that's a broke game mechanic. CCP needs to keep tweeking it to make overlapping probes actually mean something. This "one probe as good as several" effect isn't right and doesn't promote a players skill with the tools actually meaning something. Originally by: Big Al Well, if there was a law against stupidity, the server would certainly lag less.
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.12.19 11:48:00 - [72] Originally by: Xeerix Sh'inlux Patience and luck, sure. And missions are still way too profitable and usually beat ratting in nulsec unless the nulsec ratter gets lucky with faction spawns and loot. Ummm, I've done both and in my experience 0.0 ratting is a lot more profitable isk/hour wise, especially with the regular faction spawns taken into account. It's just mind-numbingly boring. 0.0 belt rats are laughably easy compared to mission rats, but that's balanced by higher danger of player pirates. You can easily fit a ship for both belt ratting and pvp, while it's very very difficult to fit for the harder lvl4s and pvp at the same time. It's pretty balanced.
Andon Cormarr	Posted - 2006.12.19 13:21:00 - [73] Firstly, let me just state that I most likely am what many consider a 'carebear'...don't seek out PvP, live in highsec space. I've also been here for less than half a year, so playing in lowsec isn't economically wise yet. What I find amusing here is that what I've heard called griefing of missions and what most here are talking about are not quite the same thing. Yes, being popped while dealing with a Blockade mission's spawns would be annoying. But, after a few minutes' time, I don't think I'd consider it griefing. What was really wrong was people jumping into a mission and rendering it unfinishable by the runner...for example by taking the Important Item in CanX in the final room and jumping out. The mission runner wasn't directly involved except to cause the spawn. If the runner could somehow finish the mission, then things would be fine. * Making scan probing skill dependent instead of random chance sounds like a very good idea. It should be difficult, not impossible. * Fixing missions so they can't be 'ganked' would help. (This is not saying you shouldn't be able to jump in & engage the runner - just that they should have a way to finish a mission if someone jumps in & grabs the "All-important Object X" & bolts.) * Let NPCs in mission aggro EVERY PC in the deadspace...after all, the pirate isn't in their gang either. * Extend the same protection CONCORD gives to that system to deadspace within that system. A competent pirate would have to consider that in a belt, why not in deadspace? (If this already is the case, great.) I could live with these circumstances, could you?
Ghoest	Posted - 2006.12.19 13:27:00 - [74] If most people are like me they still arent running lowsec missions, but they are considering it now. No one is whining till we see how it works out and many people actually start playing again. Wherever you went - here you are.
Luke Pubcrawler	Posted - 2006.12.19 13:30:00 - [75] I am not mission running at the minute so not been affected by the changes either way. Belt rattting in 0.0 is significantly more lucrative than misson running. What pirates have to understand is that any system which gives them a more than minimal chance of finding a missioner in 30mins to an hour will be unacceptable to the mission runners. Getting found once per week is a disater for most as it is almost certain death. The losss of the ship is compounded by the failled misson and lost standings. It is impossible to produce a system that will please both the runners and pirates - before Kali there were plenty of threads saying misson runners were to hard to scan and nothing has really changed. CCP basically do not want pirates in missions, especially not in highsec. The Kali changes made this possible and got reversed within days. Stop whining about missions, you are clearly not meant to be there without a lot of effort.
Kamazani Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2006.12.19 13:37:00 - [76] picks up phone and dials for the whaaaaaambulance "this is short bus 49! reports of civilians with a ruptured whine-orta in the right ventricle we need a crash cart and 1 MG of epi STAT!" --------------------------- by: GinoShin on 21/11/2006 11:41:44 whats evemon is it like a jamican wiseman?
Ishquar Teh'Sainte Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.12.19 13:41:00 - [77] Edited by: Ishquar Teh''Sainte on 19/12/2006 13:41:53 Originally by: d026 sure but everybody else has to:9 that's not a viable argument why EVERYTHING has to be grind oh - and grind != difficult instead of makine probing more difficult (increase the needed player skill) the devs decided (again) for the easier solution and made it more of a grind (only skillpoints and luck decide now about the outcome) imho the best would have been if they fixed the bugs of the pre-kali system, added a sphere instead of the plane to the scanprobes - maybe tweaked the scanner duration and deviation and everything would (in my opinion) be fine. ___________________ EVE: Revelations - The Game for Carebears and Gankbears no more skill needed for PvP - only skillpoints for Large Bubble and CovOps n00b-alts
Andon Cormarr	Posted - 2006.12.19 13:50:00 - [78] An interesting reply, and if I may butt in... *All quotes originally by Tsanse Kinski* You know when you said "Just as a question, what "defense" does a mission runner or ratter have to probes?" I actually thought there was a chance you were curious about the point. Now I doubt it, but here goes anyway... ECCM and Sensor Backups reduce your signal size by increasing your sensor strength. Signal Size = Signature Radius / Sensor Strength. You can find this information in Hoshi's guide and in the patch notes. The cap use of ECCM is miniscule for a big ship by the way. I haven't read Hoshi's guide yet & will have to reread the patch notes, but the information is appreciated. An ECCM's cap use isn't miniscule for "small" ships, so running it constantly would seriously cripple them. And, logically, it should be ECM that counters probes, not ECCM. How does broadcasting MORE make you harder to detect?? Using the scanner is inconvenient at first, but not so bad once you get used to it. With the changes to Deadspace probeing, it's not like you have to hammer on it constantly. I wish all missions gave you the time to check the scanner. Maybe they will once I get a few more million SPs trained. I'll probably have it figured out by then, too. Local? If someone doesn't pay attention to local in LowSec, they deserve what they get. That's basic, and it shouldn't even need to be argued. I hear this stated constantly, but I don't see it reflect anyone's security status. And just entering a system does not mean you're out to shoot me. If a pirate is sitting in a station when I enter a system & then decides to go probe hunting, exactly how will Local help me? I've never before encountered said pirate, so no symbol will be there by the portrait... This is an honest request for clarification, please. You don't like reducing your shields? How about going with less extenders and more resistance mods, boosters, rechargers, or even Armor Tanking, none of which increase your signature. Being Caldari, more shields are good things. Armor tanking just seems to...Gallente. Oh, and if I do have my 10k+ of shields I've a better chance to get away from you AND the NPCs. Now are you just going to reflexively find reasons to say all of those options aren't good enough for you because they don't suit your agenda, or are you going to take advantage of them? Thanks again for the info, btw. If it really is ECCM that reduces your sig, it's another reason to consider mounting one.
Frances Ducoir Academy of Decadence	Posted - 2006.12.19 14:32:00 - [79] Edited by: Frances Ducoir on 19/12/2006 14:32:31 Originally by: Bellum Eternus Edited by: Bellum Eternus on 19/12/2006 00:11:06 Title edited please don't bypass the profanity filter - Xorus Srry Xorus So, I'd like to hear from all you mission running weenies out there: has anyone been probed out since the patch change? We went from dozens of "omg they're griefing me!!" whine threads to literally zero overnight. Sounds to me like the probes are now completely useless for finding targets in deadspace. hey xD i know you... all you ever do is sitting in a station in decon and doing ?nothing? so what are you complaining about? if doing ?nothing? is your profession, then everything should be fine for you =P to the topic: imo probing should be so "effective" as mission running is. e.g.: if you can get 50-100 mio isk/day doing missions, you should not be able to get more than 50-100 mio isk with probing and killing mission runners a day. as most mission runners ships contain loot which is often worth more than 50-100mio you should be able to find "valuable" ships only once a week or once every 2 weeks and only if you work hard for it. why the hell do you want to have the right to get your iskies at a higher rate by killing mission runners than they get their iskies by doing missions? got the point? its all about being fair and giving everybody the same chances. everybody should have to do the same amount of "work" for their reward.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2006.12.19 14:47:00 - [80] Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 18/12/2006 22:13:18 If those numbers with 1% are correct, its nerfed too much imo. Its not right if mission runners can sit around in faction ships, feeling completely safe, in the middle of low sec. Thats not how the game is designed or intended to work. There should be a element of danger in low sec and 0.0, and I dont mean 1%. so beging shooted by assortited BS, cruiser Frigates is sit completly safe in the middle of low sec space. Funny, or I should say sick?
Mnengli Noiliffe	Posted - 2006.12.19 14:50:00 - [81] Originally by: Andon Cormarr Thanks again for the info, btw. If it really is ECCM that reduces your sig, it's another reason to consider mounting one. eccm does not make you translate more signal, it increases SENSOR strength. maybe those sensors absorb more signals as the result. so less signals get reflected to be catched by those probes. Just a guess though. and no they don't reduce you sig. wherether you've read that. oh and I've run 2 eccms on an ishtar and an AB, and occasionally armor rep, had absolutely no problems at that. Maybe it's the large peroxide though :)
Riho Red Wrath Exquisite Malevolance	Posted - 2006.12.19 14:59:00 - [82] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Edited by: Bellum Eternus on 19/12/2006 00:11:06 Title edited please don't bypass the profanity filter - Xorus Srry Xorus So, I'd like to hear from all you mission running weenies out there: has anyone been probed out since the patch change? We went from dozens of "omg they're griefing me!!" whine threads to literally zero overnight. Sounds to me like the probes are now completely useless for finding targets in deadspace. nope, just bit harder but still possible... and i do missions in low sec.. so if enyone trys i can shoot first :D but, still i dont understand why ppl whine about mission running ppl ?? so what they make isk and u cant touch em...let em... its not like they are takeing away ur damn money :P i do missions when i need isk... when i get enough.. buy ships and blow em up in pvp and repeate the same **** all over again :/
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2006.12.19 15:01:00 - [83] Originally by: Tanis Bastar I am one of the fools that likes to rat and mine in low sec. The rewards are crap, but I enjoy that I have to watch out for and evade the pirate types. Can someone explain to me why mission runners, who make a very large multiple of what I can make, now have zero risk from player aggression? If that's what they want, why can't they stay in hi-sec? And obviously with WTZ it is now about risk-free to travel within lo-sec as well. Sorry? How much you do? With my little experience ratting in 0.3 in some minute I have done more isk that most missions in 2 hours.
Hoshi DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.19 16:09:00 - [84] Originally by: Andon Cormarr Thanks again for the info, btw. If it really is ECCM that reduces your sig, it's another reason to consider mounting one. It does not reduce your signature radius but it does reduce your "signal size" (word made up by me). Signal size is the value used when probes try to find you and is equal to Signature Radius / Sensor Strength. If you increase Sensor Strength this value become smaller and you become harder to find with probes. ---------------------------------------- A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations
X3vious	Posted - 2006.12.19 17:09:00 - [85] You people always state Risk v Reward. So... You want it easy - where is the risk to you in hunting MR whilst in missions? Not much risk for you, is there? You want all the rewards whilst little risk, whilst preaching to others about a Risk v Reward balance. Hypocrite. Originally by: Bellum Eternus Edited by: Bellum Eternus on 19/12/2006 00:11:06 Title edited please don't bypass the profanity filter - Xorus Srry Xorus So, I'd like to hear from all you mission running weenies out there: has anyone been probed out since the patch change? We went from dozens of "omg they're griefing me!!" whine threads to literally zero overnight. Sounds to me like the probes are now completely useless for finding targets in deadspace.
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2006.12.19 17:18:00 - [86] Edited by: Tsanse Kinske on 19/12/2006 17:19:05 Originally by: Andon Cormarr An interesting reply, and if I may butt in... *All quotes originally by Tsanse Kinski* You're formatting has made it time consuming to reply with clarity, hopefully this all makes sense: Signal size question already answered by Hoshi. ECCM cap use would be significant for a smaller ship, as would the slot. However, smaller ships will also have much lower signatures, will usually be doing shorter missions, and won't usually be considered juicy targets. As things stand currently, I don't think I would bother unless I were doing L4s. Try using your scanner on some easier missions first. A lot of things in this game seem difficult at first, but turn out not to be so hard. Local...well, first off, there shouldn't be many people in your LowSec system. If there are, that in itself is often a hint that it would be wise to go elsewhere. What you need to do is Show Info on every stranger you see. I usually look at Employment History and Bio, as well as the obvious and often deceptive Security Rating. You'll be suprised what an amazing intelligence tool it is, though you can't rely on it 100% either. In LowSec you don't ever get 100% safety, but you can work toward it. Again, like using your scanner it probably seems tedious if you haven't done it. I personally find it interesting, and part of the excitement of LowSec. If I want to sleepwalk through EVE, I go to HighSec. In a broader sense than merely Show Info, getting to know the locals is probably the biggest safety measure you can take. Shields. My main point was that there is only one kind of tanking module--extenders--that increases signature. And versus NPCs, hitpoints are often overvalued, and resists especially often undervalued. So no, armor tanking isn't the only possibility. I'm not saying that there are no trade-offs involved. I think trade-offs are what makes the game interesting though, so that's a good thing in my book. I have to say though that I wouldn't bother changing my mission setup until more is figured out about how the scan is working or not working. However using Local, getting to know the people in my LowSec area, and getting some familiarity with the scanner should be priorities for anybody living in LowSec. I hope some of that helps. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Hephaesteus Gallente PILGRIMS Insane Asylum	Posted - 2006.12.19 17:21:00 - [87] Originally by: Frances Ducoir hey xD i know you... all you ever do is sitting in a station in decon and doing ?nothing? so what are you complaining about? if doing ?nothing? is your profession, then everything should be fine for you =P to the topic: imo probing should be so "effective" as mission running is. e.g.: if you can get 50-100 mio isk/day doing missions, you should not be able to get more than 50-100 mio isk with probing and killing mission runners a day. as most mission runners ships contain loot which is often worth more than 50-100mio you should be able to find "valuable" ships only once a week or once every 2 weeks and only if you work hard for it. why the hell do you want to have the right to get your iskies at a higher rate by killing mission runners than they get their iskies by doing missions? got the point? its all about being fair and giving everybody the same chances. everybody should have to do the same amount of "work" for their reward. If that was the case they would only get one a year ----------------------------------------------- Knowing all, when all is unknown.
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2006.12.19 17:28:00 - [88] Originally by: X3vious You people always state Risk v Reward. So... You want it easy - where is the risk to you in hunting MR whilst in missions? Not much risk for you, is there? You want all the rewards whilst little risk, whilst preaching to others about a Risk v Reward balance. Hypocrite. I'd say EVE is more about Opportunity/Consequence than Risk/Reward. However, people hoping to bust missions in LowSec do face some risk. Mainly it's from other predators. As far as Consequences go, they've got security hits and killrights to deal with from a game mechanics standpoint, and presumably the enmity of the person/corp/alliance they've pirated as well. I do think that there should be more consequences and more opportunity for payback coded in the game, but that's another topic. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Roshan longshot Gallente Ordos Humanitas	Posted - 2006.12.19 17:39:00 - [89] Anyone remember when missions first came out? Spawn at planets and gates? Remember the griefers went out of their way to disrupt thoses missions? CCP's response was to create 'Deadspace'. Now it looks like we are back to square one. Deadspace is not ment to be safe, but shure the hell griefers should'nt be able to find them quickly. Starting tommorrow CCP and another company are going to do a survey on past and current players...the problem its going to be only in the USA. Now the real problem I see, Americans like PVE. They like the grindage of EQ and WoW. If enough people respond to this, CCP is going to see expansion choices. And maybe make a PvE server, (I hope they dont) but if the market calls for it...then it will be. Free-form Professions, ensure no limetations on professions. Be a trader, fighter, industialist, researcher, hunter *pirate* or mixture of them all. [i]As read from the original box.
Red Ochre	Posted - 2006.12.19 18:13:00 - [90] Originally by: Miss Overlord mission runners are now a 100% protected species - their expensive ships protected they have WTZ and all is good in the world piracy and PVP are now dead. Thanks CCP for selling out to the protected dont shoot me unless youre an NPC type you have simply got to be either too lazy to take the extra 5 minutes to probe them out or your probe skills suck. which is it?
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2006.12.19 20:12:00 - [91] Originally by: Tsanse Kinske You know when you said "Just as a question, what "defense" does a mission runner or ratter have to probes?" I actually thought there was a chance you were curious about the point. Now I doubt it, but here goes anyway... ECCM and Sensor Backups reduce your signal size by increasing your sensor strength. Signal Size = Signature Radius / Sensor Strength. You can find this information in Hoshi's guide and in the patch notes. The cap use of ECCM is miniscule for a big ship by the way. Using the scanner is inconvenient at first, but not so bad once you get used to it. With the changes to Deadspace probeing, it's not like you have to hammer on it constantly. Local? If someone doesn't pay attention to local in LowSec, they deserve what they get. That's basic, and it shouldn't even need to be argued. You don't like reducing your shields? How about going with less extenders and more resistance mods, boosters, rechargers, or even Armor Tanking, none of which increase your signature. Now are you just going to reflexively find reasons to say all of those options aren't good enough for you because they don't suit your agenda, or are you going to take advantage of them? I will have to do some playing. I find it interesting that none of the fitting charts, QuickFit or anything else I've run acrossed have covered any of this. As for extenders, I only mount one or two. As my skills go up I'm using more resists and fewer extenders for the same results. Not able to fly "big ships" yet, I can't afford a BS nor would I have the skills to use it right, I'm concentrating on the Ferox right now and probably will be for a while. Hopefully someone can do an objective survey of how this all works (complete with charts, etc) as it would clear up a lot of griping on both ends of the conversation, no? Thanks for the info. I really AM curious about it.... <-----------> MMORPG == Massively Moronic Online Raw Powergaming Grief fests.... http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=426616 LowSec != NoSec
Shayla Etherodyne	Posted - 2006.12.19 20:47:00 - [92] If the chance to find a specific ship is 1% as reported in one of the above post for every try, and the attempts are 1 every minute: Chance of success (rounding to the vole number) 1 minute 1 % 5 5 % 10 10 % 20 19 % 30 26 % 60 45 % So as the average mission require between 30 and 60 minutes (and we are not speaking of a Navy Raven, officer fitted, ecc, no so much of those, most of the people use T1 ships), the hunter has about 25% chance of busting the mission, or but put it better, a mission runner has a 25% to need to abandon the mission and/or lose the ship. Want a fun information? The 1 storyline mission every 16 normal mission is not even near to recover the loss of Faction standin for 1 failed mission, even less 4. So mission runnes will and should avoid system where there are chances to be scanned like the black plague.
Tanyi Thomas	Posted - 2006.12.19 21:00:00 - [93] Edited by: Tanyi Thomas on 19/12/2006 21:00:35 Originally by: Miss Overlord mission runners are now a 100% protected species - their expensive ships protected they have WTZ and all is good in the world piracy and PVP are now dead. Thanks CCP for selling out to the protected dont shoot me unless youre an NPC type It funny what muct so called mission jumpers were doing was ganking mission runner while they were in middle of being attacked by a gang load of NPC. Not one of the five time I was jump in a mission was it 1 on 1. It was usually 4 on 1 odds, Nice PvP'ing The one time we set a ambush for the pirates in our system with even number (4 on 4). The so call pirates jump out as soon as the saw my gang member jump in. Yeah I see why PvP is dead. Is PvP fighting fair in equal numbers?
Ernest Graefenberg Minmatar Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.19 21:03:00 - [94] Originally by: Tanyi Thomas The so call pirates jump out as soon as the saw my gang member jump in. He activated a jumpgate? Oh god, can't catch him now, it's all over. Quote: Is PvP fighting fair in equal numbers? No, what the hell is wrong with you?
Nanobotter Mk2	Posted - 2006.12.19 21:56:00 - [95] "If those numbers with 1% are correct, its nerfed too much imo. Its not right if mission runners can sit around in faction ships, feeling completely safe, in the middle of low sec. Thats not how the game is designed or intended to work. There should be a element of danger in low sec and 0.0, and I dont mean 1%." Until the day comes that priates can be scanned down caught and killed atleast as easily if not even mroe easily then stfu. Mission runners are sittings ducks PERIOD. I am tired of weak players thinking they have right to make easy ISK off expesive mission runner setups. Get off your lazy arse and earn some ISK yourself, until you are forced into being a total victim playing as a pirate don;t whine or complain that you cannot farm mission runners all day long.
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2006.12.19 21:56:00 - [96] Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby Not able to fly "big ships" yet, I can't afford a BS nor would I have the skills to use it right, I'm concentrating on the Ferox right now and probably will be for a while. Well, afaic, a BC is a big ship. But that aside, and assuming you're just doing L3s, I would think your best bet is just to get the most efficient setup you can so that you get in and out quickly, rather than work on reducing your signal size with modules. Watching local and getting comfortable using the scanner are still good ideas of course. Quote: Thanks for the info. I really AM curious about it.... Glad to hear it. :) Forgive my earlier skepticism then--it's just that there are a ton of people in this game, irrespective of their EVE profession, who seem to prefer complaining to problem solving. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Gipasaurous	Posted - 2006.12.20 00:23:00 - [97] Edited by: Gipasaurous on 20/12/2006 00:23:55 Originally by: Bellum Eternus Edited by: Bellum Eternus on 19/12/2006 00:11:06 Title edited please don't bypass the profanity filter - Xorus Srry Xorus So, I'd like to hear from all you mission running weenies out there: has anyone been probed out since the patch change? We went from dozens of "omg they're griefing me!!" whine threads to literally zero overnight. Sounds to me like the probes are now completely useless for finding targets in deadspace. Where is my scanner to find pirates for easy ganks? Oh there isn't one, I think I'll cry about it till I get one.
Genericforumalt Minmatar Republic University	Posted - 2006.12.20 01:31:00 - [98] So by the logic in the thread title, a lack of threads denotes an issue? Well gee, I guess it's time to look at "ships being able to fly through space without spontaniously combusting."
DeadProphet Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.12.20 02:02:00 - [99] didn't read the thread, but i tried for about an hour to probe down mission runners in a well known lowsec hideout the other day, didn't get a single hit. so yeah, its virtually (at best) impossible to probe mission runners again.
Nanobotter Mk2	Posted - 2006.12.20 03:34:00 - [100] "so yeah, its virtually (at best) impossible to probe mission runners again." Right because we all know 1 hour means IMPOSSIBLE. Geee lets see a mission runner can make about 10 mill in that same hour but you expect to find him and kill him costing him as much or more than 300 million? Get a clue.
Gipasaurous	Posted - 2006.12.20 04:03:00 - [101] Edited by: Gipasaurous on 20/12/2006 04:04:19 Originally by: DeadProphet didn't read the thread, but i tried for about an hour to probe down mission runners in a well known lowsec hideout the other day, didn't get a single hit. so yeah, its virtually (at best) impossible to probe mission runners again. Wow a whole hour to make someone lose a weeks if not months of work in a stupid one sided fight. Stick to gate camping with the rest of the gankbears.
EPSILON DELTA	Posted - 2006.12.20 04:09:00 - [102] Quote: so yeah, its virtually (at best) impossible to probe mission runners again. Yes, impossble for anyone with a patience and skill level of 0. I've been probed out the day after patch and I had no drones. The problem is, most pirates whining on forum are not that smart, otherwise they would be pvpers fighting real people instead of easier-than-killing-npc ganks.
Andon Cormarr	Posted - 2006.12.20 09:54:00 - [103] Originally by: Tsanse Kinske Edited by: Tsanse Kinske on 19/12/2006 17:19:05 Originally by: Andon Cormarr An interesting reply, and if I may butt in... *All quotes originally by Tsanse Kinski* You're formatting has made it time consuming to reply with clarity, hopefully this all makes sense: Signal size question already answered by Hoshi. ECCM cap use would be significant for a smaller ship, as would the slot. However, smaller ships will also have much lower signatures, will usually be doing shorter missions, and won't usually be considered juicy targets. As things stand currently, I don't think I would bother unless I were doing L4s. Try using your scanner on some easier missions first. A lot of things in this game seem difficult at first, but turn out not to be so hard. Local...well, first off, there shouldn't be many people in your LowSec system. If there are, that in itself is often a hint that it would be wise to go elsewhere. What you need to do is Show Info on every stranger you see. I usually look at Employment History and Bio, as well as the obvious and often deceptive Security Rating. You'll be suprised what an amazing intelligence tool it is, though you can't rely on it 100% either. In LowSec you don't ever get 100% safety, but you can work toward it. Again, like using your scanner it probably seems tedious if you haven't done it. I personally find it interesting, and part of the excitement of LowSec. If I want to sleepwalk through EVE, I go to HighSec. In a broader sense than merely Show Info, getting to know the locals is probably the biggest safety measure you can take. Shields. My main point was that there is only one kind of tanking module--extenders--that increases signature. And versus NPCs, hitpoints are often overvalued, and resists especially often undervalued. So no, armor tanking isn't the only possibility. I'm not saying that there are no trade-offs involved. I think trade-offs are what makes the game interesting though, so that's a good thing in my book. I have to say though that I wouldn't bother changing my mission setup until more is figured out about how the scan is working or not working. However using Local, getting to know the people in my LowSec area, and getting some familiarity with the scanner should be priorities for anybody living in LowSec. I hope some of that helps. Sorry about the formatting, just wanted to be sure the answers matched up correctly. I'll have to track down Hoshi's guide and read it, obviously. The scanner was confusing the only time I tried it, but I'll add it to the things to figure out. With a more active & friendly corp than then, so that will probably help. And the ECCM effects make more sense as 'filtering' signal noise...I was thinking of it being a 'burn-through' model. Nice to see it might help, since I might mount one once my skills get the resists up some more. Hate being jammed. The effectiveness of resistances with shields (or armor) is one of those things you have to actually see to believe. Just having that nice big number is comforting, since EVE doesn't show you how much damage is being shrugged off. After my brief time with a Ferox I appreciate resistances much more than I had. With a low population as seems typical in low-sec, running info on everyone could work. Pop into a station briefly, do your 'reading', then just watch for additions during the mission. It's a little more difficult in high-sec, since there are usually more folks there. At least it's not some silly little setting or tweak I missed, just spending time. Thanks for the answers & info, Tsanse. It's nice to run across someone that actually tries to be helpful.
Miss Overlord Gallente Ferrum Pugnus New Eve Order	Posted - 2006.12.20 09:57:00 - [104] anyone that jumps in on u mark em as red or move around These posts represent my personal views and not those of my corp or alliance. These do not reflect offical alliance or corp views This is a disclaimer
Ron Lygera	Posted - 2006.12.20 10:01:00 - [105] Originally by: Tanyi Thomas Not one of the five time I was jump in a mission was it 1 on 1. It was usually 4 on 1 odds, Nice PvP'ing Yeah I see why PvP is dead. Welcome to EVE. Shooting players, even while they are running missions are not against any rules. [qoute]Is PvP fighting fair in equal numbers? Fights are not nescesarely fair or balanced.
Ron Lygera	Posted - 2006.12.20 10:03:00 - [106] Originally by: EPSILON DELTA Quote: so yeah, its virtually (at best) impossible to probe mission runners again. Yes, impossble for anyone with a patience and skill level of 0. I've been probed out the day after patch and I had no drones. The problem is, most pirates whining on forum are not that smart, otherwise they would be pvpers fighting real people instead of easier-than-killing-npc ganks. Are you not real? You are just a legit target as anything else. Accept it.
Lorn Yeager Gallente Blessed Souls	Posted - 2006.12.20 10:05:00 - [107] Edited by: Lorn Yeager on 20/12/2006 10:06:06 Originally by: Gipasaurous Where is my scanner to find pirates for easy ganks? Oh there isn't one, I think I'll cry about it till I get one. Im sure the probes will finde a safespotted pirate easier than a mission-runner (who is only out for easy isk and no-risk-npc-ganking) Edit: Please understand the irony of my post before translating it into a flame. Begin sig: //-> Its Aloha time! Lorn Yeager Blessed Souls
Shayla Sh'inlux Gallente	Posted - 2006.12.20 10:45:00 - [108] Another night of scanning has passed. We have found out running missions is completely safe UNLESS you do them in a Ferox with shield extenders. See, a Ferox has pretty big sig with large extenders on and a not-so-good sensor strength. Their signal strength, even after dividing it by 100 still gives the 10au probes about 5% chance to find them. I have made between 100 and 150 scans yesterday night and got hits on two Feroxes. During that night I have had two or three 10au probes overlapping that system's mission hotspot area. I had prepared myself well. I had made bookmarks on the right plane in advance (by using my alt to accept missions) and I had made spots to drop probes so I would get 2 or 3 probes overlap in the most likely mission area's. I also have good skills. Three hours later, two hits. The whole system was packed with Ravens, Caracals, Drakes and some other ships that evening and I had most of them on 10au scan most of the time. The only thing I get is parked shuttles, ships at stations and two bloody Feroxes with shield extenders. Oh and of course my own gangmates over and over again. In the end they just sat in a deadspace area so they didn't show up on my scans... As for the drone scanning - not true. Drones have a signal strength just as any other ship. They have a sensor strength of one, which is why their signal strength is so high. In deadspace it still gets divided by 100 and they're still all but unfindable; it is really easy to find abandoned drones though. When I finally got tired of finding nothing scan after scan after scan without any skill involved (ahemworld of grindcraftahem) a corpmate with even better scanning skillpoints (deliberately avoiding the word skills here since they don't matter anyway) who just started to randomly drop 5 au probes in the hope he would get lucky. He got lucky once and we got to the deadspace gate of a Raven's mission. Of course this guy did what a lowsec mission runner should do and periodically checked the scanner. He picked up the Covert ops (that uncloaked due to landing on top of the warpgate) and the Dominix on his range/direction scanner, drew the right conclusion and warped off. Power to him; a guy who's paying attention like that deserves to get away. Another two hours later we left disillusioned after finding two deadspace Feroxes and one normal-space missioning Thorax. Probing sucks. It's a grind, solely based on luck and skillpoints and extremely frustrating. Originally by: "Cy4n1d3" You can't PVP with 4 mids.
Alliaanna Dalaii Gallente Does Not Compute	Posted - 2006.12.20 10:51:00 - [109] Originally by: Tanyi Thomas Edited by: Tanyi Thomas on 19/12/2006 21:00:35 Originally by: Miss Overlord mission runners are now a 100% protected species - their expensive ships protected they have WTZ and all is good in the world piracy and PVP are now dead. Thanks CCP for selling out to the protected dont shoot me unless youre an NPC type It funny what muct so called mission jumpers were doing was ganking mission runner while they were in middle of being attacked by a gang load of NPC. Not one of the five time I was jump in a mission was it 1 on 1. It was usually 4 on 1 odds, Nice PvP'ing The one time we set a ambush for the pirates in our system with even number (4 on 4). The so call pirates jump out as soon as the saw my gang member jump in. Yeah I see why PvP is dead. Is PvP fighting fair in equal numbers? I'm not going to call you a noob... that would be mean, BUT. So you set a gatecamp for pirates ? Go you. You do realise that when you engage those 4 pirates with your 4 they cant actually fire back without getting a sentry response. Only the one pirate you concentrate your fire on can fire back without getting agro'd. Unless each of your 4 was going to go for 1 of the pirates. But given anti pirate fleet's corrdination I dought that very much. Alliaanna DNC Treasure Hunt !!
Kaboo Mestir	Posted - 2006.12.20 10:57:00 - [110] Edited by: Kaboo Mestir on 20/12/2006 10:59:42 [replying mostly to last Shayla Sh'inlux's post] then don't do it ffs. oh and the pre-kali system was even worse than now. of course those who didn't know better got cought. they simply didn't expect to be found like that. but if they checked the scanner for probes, only 3au radius, they would be away long before your final triangulation scan would finish... dunno if it yields nothing or not, but definitely you wouldn't find him there in any case. so basically all the kali did, is alert mission runners about the possibility of getting scanned. the difficulty of scanning after last patch is about the same as before. you yourself admitted that it's perfectly possible to find people with 5 au probes. but they are alert now so all you get is frustration. so maybe it's time to think of some better way to make money. perhaps mining? you know there are so mnuch gneiss growing in low sec nowadays...
Ishana Minmatar The Black Rabbits	Posted - 2006.12.20 11:12:00 - [111] Originally by: Kaboo Mestir Edited by: Kaboo Mestir on 20/12/2006 11:03:43 [replying mostly to last Shayla Sh'inlux's post] then don't do it ffs. oh and the pre-kali system was even worse than now. I disagree. I actually thought it was extremely fun to do. It wasn't a grind, like it is now, you actually needed to work for it. I spend many nights doing nothing but scanning with my alt, and not even logging my main on to get the kill. (just told other people that I found something and they were more then happy to finish the job.) _________________________________________________________ Please resize your signature to the limits specified in the forum rules, thanks. -wystler ([email protected])
Shayla Sh'inlux Gallente	Posted - 2006.12.20 11:15:00 - [112] Originally by: Kaboo Mestir Edited by: Kaboo Mestir on 20/12/2006 11:02:37 [replying mostly to last Shayla Sh'inlux's post] then don't do it ffs. Why not? I could do it before Kali and just because my playstyle doesn't attract you and you think all I do is mindlessly gank people (which is not the case) I have to stop argumenting why and how CCP ruined the system? Quote: oh and the pre-kali system was even worse than now. Goodbye credibility. Pre-Kali probing = hard, but satisfying. Post-Kali probing = hard, unrewarding, purely skillpoint and time-based and a grind. Quote: of course those who didn't know better got cought. they simply didn't expect to be found like that. That's odd cos there's a pretty big, nice red sign on the mission description as well as the 0,4 gate that it might be dangerous and they may be under fire from other players without Concord coming to their aid. Quote: but if they checked the scanner for probes, only 3au radius, they would be away long before your final triangulation scan would finish... dunno if it yields nothing or not, but definitely you wouldn't find him there in any case. I'm not getting wtf you're trying to say here? You're saying that people that pay attention don't get caught? OMGOHNOES HAX! Quote: so basically all kali did, is alert mission runners about the possibility of getting scanned. uuum no? Actually pre-Kali if you paid attention it was EASIER to avoid probes than it is now. See, these days you can be found with a probe that's outside your maximum scan range. Before there was always the 3au scan. These days scanning takes as less as 27 seconds, while pre-Kali it was 75 so you had MORE time to detect the probes. Quote: the difficulty of scanning after last patch is about the same as before kali. you yourself admitted that it's perfectly possible to find people with 5 au probes. so all left to do for you is to learn to use more powerful probes instead of dumbly sitting in safespot mating with observator. Read my post. Notice I'm using 10au probes (which are the second strongest) because overlapping with the 5 au probes is just not gonna happen and they have a too short duration. Finding people is not more difficult. In fact, it's easier in that it's all about spamming the scan button to find something with a 0,27% chance. Extremely improbable is NOT the same as difficult. Quote: but as missioners are alert now so all you get in most cases is frustration. so maybe it's time to think of some better way to make money? Money? What do I need that for; don't worry I got plenty. Me shooting at people has RPing reasons. And CCP killed my main source of RPing material. Besides that, mission runners that pay attention are the ones I don't mind getting away; I think I actually wrote that in the previous post but anyway. In fact, I know for a fact you will reply this post with some "go mine and stop griefing"-ish post. Get a clue, tbfh. Originally by: "Cy4n1d3" You can't PVP with 4 mids.
Kaboo Mestir	Posted - 2006.12.20 12:01:00 - [113] Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux Originally by: Kaboo Mestir Edited by: Kaboo Mestir on 20/12/2006 11:02:37 [replying mostly to last Shayla Sh'inlux's post] then don't do it ffs. Why not? I could do it before Kali and just because my playstyle doesn't attract you and you think all I do is mindlessly gank people (which is not the case) I have to stop argumenting why and how CCP ruined the system? because you semt to be pretty much whining how grinding and hard is it now. Quote: Quote: oh and the pre-kali system was even worse than now. Goodbye credibility. Pre-Kali probing = hard, but satisfying. Post-Kali probing = hard, unrewarding, purely skillpoint and time-based and a grind. pre-kali = alert mission runner easily goes away seeing your 3au probes. if he could run away in the right time, the mission deadspace itself would not fall to the pirate. so pirate can't for example steal the mission item while mission runner hides in station etc. post-kali (pre-patch) = mission runner only can see you when you're at your warp to zero. mission is compromised already as pirates can wait for him at the gate, or warp there right after mission runner returns, using the noob corp alt spy in local. post-patch = can only riliably find mission runner using close range probes. thus mission runner once again can see you before you catch him. exactly as pre-kali. only difference is that now, much more mission runners actually checking for probes. which is my point exactly. Quote: Quote: of course those who didn't know better got cought. they simply didn't expect to be found like that. That's odd cos there's a pretty big, nice red sign on the mission description as well as the 0,4 gate that it might be dangerous and they may be under fire from other players without Concord coming to their aid. I ain't argue with this actually. but still, now much more mission runners actually do checking. less mindless sheeps run missions. more frustration to the pirate exactly for this reason. [skipping some stuff answered just above] Quote: Quote: so basically all kali did, is alert mission runners about the possibility of getting scanned. uuum no? Actually pre-Kali if you paid attention it was EASIER to avoid probes than it is now. See, these days you can be found with a probe that's outside your maximum scan range. Before there was always the 3au scan. These days scanning takes as less as 27 seconds, while pre-Kali it was 75 so you had MORE time to detect the probes. ha! that is so funny. someone whines in 1st post about how it's impossible now to scan using observators. and then another of the same kind, in the same thread, tells how hard is it to avoid being scanned by them. make up your mind before posting maybe? and by the way, everything you said in this quote I have mentioned already in the post you quoted. Quote: In fact, I know for a fact you will reply this post with some "go mine and stop griefing"-ish post. Get a clue, tbfh. well I've seen a gneiss field in low sec, with -6 can (NOT a wreck) floating there, so I thought maybe some pirates actually like mining, hence the suggestion :)
Kaboo Mestir	Posted - 2006.12.20 12:12:00 - [114] Edited by: Kaboo Mestir on 20/12/2006 12:13:42 (double post)
Kharriga Caldari	Posted - 2006.12.20 12:25:00 - [115] dont know much about probing but a guy from my corp doesnt seem to have problems doing it - "I'm scissors. Paper is fine. Nerf rock!"
Miss Overlord Gallente Ferrum Pugnus New Eve Order	Posted - 2006.12.20 12:29:00 - [116] Originally by: Kharriga dont know much about probing but a guy from my corp doesnt seem to have problems doing it astrometrics pinpointing and triangulation 4 seems to make all the difference These posts represent my personal views and not those of my corp or alliance. These do not reflect offical alliance or corp views This is a disclaimer
Miklas Laces A.N.A.R.C.H.I.C.A	Posted - 2006.12.20 13:30:00 - [117] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Sounds to me like the probes are now completely useless for finding targets in deadspace. Personal experience: with 10AU probes I never find people in deadspace. With 5AU probes I have a 30% chance, so it usually takes 2-3 minutes.
Shayla Sh'inlux Gallente	Posted - 2006.12.20 15:14:00 - [118] Quote: Personal experience: with 10AU probes I never find people in deadspace. With 5AU probes I have a 30% chance, so it usually takes 2-3 minutes. 30% chance means of finding something in deadspace? Eeerm.. no? Let's see. Assuming you have MAX skills (which you don't have) and your proposed target is at 0 km (which it is not) and assuming two overlapping 5AU probes (which again, is impossible in most scenario's) your target would need to have a Signal Strength of 600. Now, a Revelation with 3 Large Shield Extenders II running a tech II MWD has a Signal Strength of 164,1. I don't think I can get much higher that that, but maybe you can get it to 600 somehow and happen to run into mission runners with that setup all the time. In short: stop lying. My personal experience as demonstrated in that longer post on the previous page: * Prepared Pilot - check * Overlapping probes - check * Good skills - check * Directional Scanner abilities - check * Scanning in my own backyard - check * Results - Two. Both Shield extended Feroxes If you run the numbers this is actually what you would expect to get with the current mechanics. Aforementioned Ferox has 1,7% chance of showing up on scan if it's at 0 km (so in reality it's a tad bit lower depending on how far it is from the probes), so in 150 scans you'd expect to find 2,6 of them and I found two. Removing the extenders reduces the base (not counting range) chance to 1,5% (which is 12% lower that with extenders). Now, going up to max skills and 5au probes and even using overlap of two, increases this chance to 8,8% but that's STILL not counting the range which is actually quite a bit factor. If we average the distance to target to half the max range of the used probe this chance would be 6,8% and the chance for my sample Ferox yesterday would have been 1,4%. Problems: * Grind. Player skill removed out of equation. You basically need to spam the scan buttons 50 times in a row for something to show up. On max skills this takes 22,5 minute plus the time you need to refresh the probes. Now, 22,5 minutes to find someone IS OK WITH ME. What is NOT ok with me is that it's just "click, wait... click, wait... click, wait.... repeat ad infinitum". Probing will, as making cyno's simply become an alt's job. Sit in system and hit analyze 50 times in a row. Of course maxing skills (which take up to half a year) to be able to find someone "somewhat reliable within half an hour" is a silly proposition to begin with. Originally by: "Cy4n1d3" You can't PVP with 4 mids.

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