Pages: 1 [2] 3 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Imhotep Khem
Total Mayhem. Maelstrom Alliance
|
Posted - 2006.12.20 03:28:00 -
[31]
Its called 'tracking' speed, not gun rotation speed. ____ If your not dyin' your not tryin'. |
Erotic Irony
RONA Deepspace Rule of Three
|
Posted - 2006.12.20 08:54:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Renox I have a pretty good idea of how the target painter works as they pretty much exist today (unless they have started distiorting space with them in EVE).
Do tell. ___
|
DiuxDium
Casting Shadows
|
Posted - 2006.12.20 10:01:00 -
[33]
Logic is stupid. Balance isn't.
If all I need to do to avoid every form of fire is to move real quick, then why bother tanking at all? Just do the little circle of death and I-Win. The Nanophoon is powerful as it is. When my torpedoes have explosions the size of small moons, and do "17" damage to you, I've got enough reason to complain. Being immune to guns as well would just be silly.
How's that for a "Reason".
|
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2006.12.20 10:09:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Akita T on 20/12/2006 10:10:12
For "damage avoidance" when orbiting a target:
*without IStabs: AB on > nothing on >>> MWD on *with plenty of IStabs: AB on >= MWD on >> nothing on
...as simple as that. _ My skills | Mod/Rig stacknerfing explained |
Litus Arowar
Amarr Obsidian Asylum Pure.
|
Posted - 2006.12.20 12:05:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Imhotep Khem Its called 'tracking' speed, not gun rotation speed.
and yet another person who doesn't read posts but wants to be a smartass
Albert Anastacia> Like they say, adapt or die. I adapted and now I get to Iwinbutton all over everyones face. |
Imhotep Khem
Total Mayhem. Maelstrom Alliance
|
Posted - 2006.12.20 12:25:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Litus Arowar
Originally by: Imhotep Khem Its called 'tracking' speed, not gun rotation speed.
and yet another person who doesn't read posts but wants to be a smartass
Please. This silly subject comes up ever 2-3 months when someone finally decides to try and understand eve tracking. Which by the way makes perfect logical sense.
It just does not to those that think its as easy to aim a ship as it is to aim a turret. ____ If your not dyin' your not tryin'. |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2006.12.20 12:31:00 -
[37]
Except the fact the "turret tracking guide" exaplains it WRONG. Of course the issue pops op every now and then, if the only correct info in the turret tracking guide is the info on the final page (the graphs). _ My skills | Mod/Rig stacknerfing explained |
Yamaeda
|
Posted - 2006.12.20 13:02:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Kovach Lyudozherc I was amazed yesterday, when I found out that a hyperion with no tracking mods, could easily hit me for 350dmg+ while I was orbiting him in a nanophoon at 2800m/s. The distance was 17km.
(Tracking speed)*(Distance)=(Orbiting Speed)
I hope I'm not mistaken but with his 0.04 rad/s tracking speed, he would be able to track a ship going 680m/s at 17km. So he practically should have no chance to hit me at 2800m/s. However, my signature radius interferes so badly, he has a 60-70% chance to hit me.
Now that is absurd.
My ship is yes 7x "bigger", but is still going so fast he shoudln't be able to track me.
That logic applies with missiles where no matter the signature radius, they deal no damage if going fast enough. Even though the formula considers your speed and signature radius.
My oppinion is that when you like orbit someone with twice the speed of his (tracking speed*distance), there should be no chance for him to hit you. What do you think?
You're missing out on one important factor:
(Tracking speed)*(Distance)=(Orbiting Speed) (Tracking speed)*(Distance)*(gun tracking)/(signature radius)=(Gun Tracking Speed)
So, assuming you're using a MWD, your 2800m/s in a MWD-affected BS is equal to 560m/s in a normal BS. As you concluded he can track 680m/s (for 50% hit rate) and thus will hit you approx. 70% of the time.
I'm sure frigates would like the idea of "if i can track it i can hit it" as a webbed frigate = doomed with such a change. I do however agree to that signature has a very big influence on hit chances, too big imo.
/Y
---------- It's great being Amarr, ain't it? |
Bazman
Caldari Shinra Lotka Volterra
|
Posted - 2006.12.20 14:12:00 -
[39]
Its easier if you think of Signature radius as the ships emissions like Engines and stuff. All this nonscene about ships being physically 7x bigger is silly, even for something as unrealistic as EVE. -----
OMG READ TUXFORD!!!1 |
Kovach Lyudozherc
|
Posted - 2006.12.20 14:14:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Yamaeda
You're missing out on one important factor:
(Tracking speed)*(Distance)=(Orbiting Speed) (Tracking speed)*(Distance)*(gun tracking)/(signature radius)=(Gun Tracking Speed)
So, assuming you're using a MWD, your 2800m/s in a MWD-affected BS is equal to 560m/s in a normal BS. As you concluded he can track 680m/s (for 50% hit rate) and thus will hit you approx. 70% of the time.
I'm sure frigates would like the idea of "if i can track it i can hit it" as a webbed frigate = doomed with such a change. I do however agree to that signature has a very big influence on hit chances, too big imo.
/Y
Thanks Yamaeda, I knew signature radius was in the formula somehow. Now I know how and I totally agree with you, sig radius is just a bit too influent in this equation.
And for some that posted before, yes if u have enough speed you don't need a tank. That is the philosophy some of minmatar ships are based on. However, as we see from the upper equation, speed from mwd does not help at all. In fact it helps our opponents, that can hit us due to our sig radius. They just sit there as we cant hit them with our turrets. (That is way pepole use the phoon -> can fit 4 launchers).
|
|
Lenaria
Caldari Draconis Navitas Aeterna
|
Posted - 2006.12.20 14:51:00 -
[41]
This thread is absolutly idiotical. If signature radius wouldnt contirbute to hit chance then it become old good "wreck frigate for 3400 damage from 1400mm at 5km orbit".
|
Kovach Lyudozherc
|
Posted - 2006.12.20 15:05:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Lenaria This thread is absolutly idiotical. If signature radius wouldnt contirbute to hit chance then it become old good "wreck frigate for 3400 damage from 1400mm at 5km orbit".
Actually, now it is that way, because sig radius helps a lot to compenset low tracking speed and in this thread we are discussing whether it helps too much or no.
|
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2006.12.20 15:08:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Lenaria This thread is absolutly idiotical. If signature radius wouldnt contirbute to hit chance then it become old good "wreck frigate for 3400 damage from 1400mm at 5km orbit".
...whereas the current "wreck frigate for 3400 damage from 1400mm at 200km regardless of frig's speed" is soooo much better, right ? _ My skills | Mod/Rig stacknerfing explained |
Laboratus
Gallente BGG
|
Posted - 2006.12.20 15:39:00 -
[44]
If you want to use a speed tank in a minnie ship, don't fit a MWD. It kills the tank. Use an afterburner and a snake set. Does wonders. A Battleship with a MWD active has a sig radius sieged dreads can easily hit. And thats just sad. ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial
|
Posted - 2006.12.20 15:50:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Lenaria This thread is absolutly idiotical. If signature radius wouldnt contirbute to hit chance then it become old good "wreck frigate for 3400 damage from 1400mm at 5km orbit".
...whereas the current "wreck frigate for 3400 damage from 1400mm at 200km regardless of frig's speed" is soooo much better, right ?
yes ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
Arondor
GalacTECH Unlimited
|
Posted - 2006.12.20 16:00:00 -
[46]
I think the op here is upset that the almost invincible nano-sped tank isn't invincible.
|
Blind Man
Kemono.
|
Posted - 2006.12.20 16:31:00 -
[47]
ur problem: 2.8km/s is like too slow for a ship that cant tank (im guessing ur in like a nanophoon or something..)
SOLO PVP SETUPZ: RAVEN/DRAKE |
Vincent Almasy
Gallente The Underground
|
Posted - 2006.12.20 16:35:00 -
[48]
a mwd inceases the sig radius for the ships, the ship's missiles explode on the ships's surace but form the speed difference from the contact then the explosion only partial damage is drone from the ship leaving the damage zone. A turrent aims at the front of the spacial distubance and fires as a shell has air time so to perfect aim it shoots at the start fo the disturbance the the core of it. from this being so far infront of the ship you are out of the first range but from the time from the shell firing and going along that path your ship enter's that danage area, a shell does all of it's damage into one spot, reguardless of rest of the ships mass from no external explosion range. This is why a torp hits a battle ship for more damage then a frigate, as the frigate is smaller to the explotion passed over it while the battle ship is so large it absorbs more of the damage. While a bullet is smaller then a pod and from that it's damage zone is always smlal enough to hit it's target for the same damage; a 1400mm will hit a pod, shuttle and frig just had hard as it will hit a battle ship or a titan.
|
Vol Jbolaz
Sturmgrenadier Inc R i s e
|
Posted - 2006.12.20 17:25:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Yamaeda
(Tracking speed)*(Distance)*(gun tracking)/(signature radius)=(Gun Tracking Speed)
First off, to everyone else that responded to this thread, I would like to politely ask that unless you have some concrete to add, don't add anything. The only post to this thread of any substance has been the one by Yamaeda.
Yamaeda, I have to ask what you mean by "gun tracking". Is that the turret's signature resolution?
Should the formula read: (turret tracking speed)*(distance to target)*(turret signature resolution)/(target signature radius)=(transverse velocity)
And in this case, you mentioned that the formula's resulting transverse velocity give a 50% chance to hit? Meaning if the attacker/target have a higher transverse velocity, the attacker may hit, but with a lower chance? Is there a formula to describe that curve?
|
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial
|
Posted - 2006.12.20 17:55:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Goumindong on 20/12/2006 17:59:45
Originally by: Vol Jbolaz
Originally by: Yamaeda
(Tracking speed)*(Distance)*(gun tracking)/(signature radius)=(Gun Tracking Speed)
First off, to everyone else that responded to this thread, I would like to politely ask that unless you have some concrete to add, don't add anything. The only post to this thread of any substance has been the one by Yamaeda.
Yamaeda, I have to ask what you mean by "gun tracking". Is that the turret's signature resolution?
Should the formula read: (turret tracking speed)*(distance to target)*(turret signature resolution)/(target signature radius)=(transverse velocity)
And in this case, you mentioned that the formula's resulting transverse velocity give a 50% chance to hit? Meaning if the attacker/target have a higher transverse velocity, the attacker may hit, but with a lower chance? Is there a formula to describe that curve?
by "tracking speed" he means "transversal"
O.K. so a primer before we get on this
1. The sum of any two three dimentional vecctors can be represented as a single vector in two dimensions relative to a single, unmoving point with.
2. Relative to this single point, this vector has three components. Radial velocity, Tranvseral velocity, and location. Radial velocity is velocity towards or away from the reference point. Transversal velocity is velocity towards or away from a normalized axis from the refernce point and the start of the vector. It is velocity tangent to a circle with focus on the reference point and radius equal to the distance between the reference point and the vector start point.
3. Location is the location of the target relative to the shooting ship.
4. When you take these three conditions, the vector, and the location of the vector, you can calculate the amount of radial distance between the start and end point relative to the reference point.
This is the angular velocity, and it is about equal to transversal/distance[it is actualy tan^(-1)[transversal/distance]{inverse tangent}, but expressed in radians that comes out very closely to the correct number since we are only ever working in a single quadrant].
5. Angular velocity is what matters when discribing tracking. Transveral is just a tool we use to get there. The next component is signature radius and gun signature radius.The signature radius ratio[ship/gun] acts as a multiplier of sorts on the angular velocity of the target ship. If the ship is 3x as large as the guns signature radius, its as if their transveral/angular velocity is 1/3 their current velocity. This is why pulse lasers can hit 7km/s nano phoons at 33km 70% of the time[they are HUGE!]
O.K. So now that we have the basics down, we have to figure a basic calc. This isnt perfect, but its a general rule.
If {[Ship sig/gun sig] x Angular velocity < gun tracking} Then hit rate = 100% If not {[Ship sig/gun sig] x Angular velocity < gun tracking} Then hit rate < 100%
The exact amount less than 100% i dont know, as is how "good hits" are calculated.
Then falloff comes into play which is another striaight hit rate multiplier.
Yadda yadda yadda, keep your targets angular velocity multiplied by its size and divided by your guns signature radius under your guns tracking in order to hit them the best.(or transveral velocity/distance if you want to do even more quick calc)
On my overview, i have size and angular right next to each other, then i just memorize the tracking on my guns, so i only have to do quick and easy approximations. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
|
Karrihn
Caldari Quintessential
|
Posted - 2006.12.20 18:24:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Kovach Lyudozherc I was amazed yesterday, when I found out that a hyperion with no tracking mods, could easily hit me for 350dmg+ while I was orbiting him in a nanophoon at 2800m/s. The distance was 17km.
(Tracking speed)*(Distance)=(Orbiting Speed)
I hope I'm not mistaken but with his 0.04 rad/s tracking speed, he would be able to track a ship going 680m/s at 17km. So he practically should have no chance to hit me at 2800m/s. However, my signature radius interferes so badly, he has a 60-70% chance to hit me.
Now that is absurd.
My ship is yes 7x "bigger", but is still going so fast he shoudln't be able to track me.
That logic applies with missiles where no matter the signature radius, they deal no damage if going fast enough. Even though the formula considers your speed and signature radius.
My oppinion is that when you like orbit someone with twice the speed of his (tracking speed*distance), there should be no chance for him to hit you. What do you think?
I cannot take this seriously because you fail to notice the fact that you could put enough inertial stabilizers on a Battleship to keep ANY ship at a near-zero facing chage and not track a target at all.
Laymans terms:
You can make your ship manuverable enough to always face your target which would require practically zero tracking and you will still miss. (try it, I did.)
this is due to the fact that turret tracking is not RELATIVE to ship direction and facing. That is why the idea of Broadside firing tactics etc. etc. are lost in EVE.
CCP has done the best it can to provide physics for us in EVE. The laws in EVE are just different.
I imagine i a few years when we obtain another Break-through in technology CCP will be more than happy to make EVE physics painfully acurate. Until then its just a bummer.
The Destruction of your ship is usually preceeded by the thought,"I think I will try somthing a little different this time...." |
Thor Xian
Vertigo One E.A.R.T.H. Federation
|
Posted - 2006.12.20 18:28:00 -
[52]
My Armageddon > Nanophoons.
PS: Use ABs, MWDs are 'not a combat module' and are working as intended, suffer the consequences.
~Thor Xian, Material Defender
"For all your Material Needs, Vertigo One."
Corp/Alliance Services |
Minnow maught
Art of War Anarchy Empire
|
Posted - 2006.12.20 18:48:00 -
[53]
Ok this will seem really sad to suggest this but 'warp' refers to the compression of space in front of the vehicle so that it can cover a further distance in a shorter time.
so for example if you take a 100m ship and compress 500m of space into a 100m area then put the ship into it, it will occupy 500m of uncompressed space hence for the non-warping observer will actually occupy and appear to be of 500m in size.
another way to look at it is if it takes 1 second to cover 100m, if you compress 500m of space into 100m it will now take you 1 second to cover 500m.
basic warp drive theory :) ..... so yes warped space and entering warped space should present a larger target together with a larger signature radius.
however the above assumes that warped space is only relevant to the person activating the warp. This should not be true and should actually be the effect that all observers should witness hence totally contradicting what I have said above :)
right more beer needed to make sense of this.
|
Reto
The Last Resort
|
Posted - 2006.12.20 20:21:00 -
[54]
to the op:
tracking guide missle guide
read it, understand it, try out the chart wizards.
Originally by: s4mp3r0r "Hey man, you're mom has a cruise missile".
|
Mechalus Kal'lith
|
Posted - 2006.12.20 22:03:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Leandro Salazar Because both ordnances probably hit you way off the center of your ship. But while the hybrid charge does its damage from the impact and thus hits for full, the torpedo does its damage from its explosion. And since your velocity is a lot faster than the expansion velocity of the explosion cloud, you only catch a very fraction of that cloud on your hull until you have escaped it.
yes, untill one of the missiles decides to explode right in front of your ship in your line of flight... explain that plz.....
|
Outa Rileau
|
Posted - 2006.12.20 23:37:00 -
[56]
Well obviously he's just better than you.
Now, go fit a real setup and come back if he beats you again...
------------------------- Getting Sig Removed / Rank 8 / SP: 762039 of 2048000
|
Chamadra
|
Posted - 2006.12.21 00:19:00 -
[57]
IMHO the whole tracking speed, sig radius thing is kinda. Well..stupid. Going off of the turret tutorial if the ship is spinning faster than the gun can spin then you're chances of hitting are way reduced. If the target is moving around you in a sphere, you'd just pick an area of the sphere to point your gun and when the ship shows up in that area shoot it. In EVE you really are orbiting in a 2-d plane so it's childs play to hit you even if I have a gun that spins really slowly. I don't care how big or small you are I can easily hit you if you are orbiting at a fixed velocity around a 2-d plan.
|
Kldraina
|
Posted - 2006.12.21 00:21:00 -
[58]
Speed and sig radius have basically the same magnitude of effect upon tracking. Double your speed, and you become twice as hard to track. Double your sig, and you become twice as easy to track. So if you multiply sig radius by the same amount that you multiply speed by, you'll be no harder to hit than before. |
Tricit
Caldari Dark Entropy
|
Posted - 2006.12.21 02:10:00 -
[59]
I think CCP should change ship's graphics when they activate MWD.... they turn into some gigantic bloated thingie.
For example, when a Typhoon turns on it's MWD, it looks bigger than a Titan.
|
Tachy
|
Posted - 2006.12.21 07:22:00 -
[60]
The ship covers more space when the mwd bends the timespace areoun dit for 'propulsion'.
At this point the devs consider the shots not instant events and the ship becomes more than the singularity in space it's normally represented by. --*=*=*--
The cause for this is not yet known, but we do have a possible fix in testing. by Sharkbait | 2006.09.20 |
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 [2] 3 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |