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Zimmer Jones
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
304
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Posted - 2015.09.30 16:32:46 -
[31] - Quote
Two bad ideas that will be in the one line thread
Instead of nerfing logi output have it affect certain survivability modules, specifically the damage controls and active resist buffs.
Thus would mean logi have to combat raw damage.
You are content to be content. This is not a jedi mind trick, you're just the game
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Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc
Test Alliance Please Ignore
2652
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Posted - 2015.09.30 16:44:17 -
[32] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:The choice in small gang is already relevant. It's not my fault people would rather be the 14th caracal instead of the 1st Blackbird/Celestis/Bellicose. Those put more pressure on the logi on the other side than a caracal. Why aren't they flow more? They are not fun? What's so fun about shooting at ship that you won't kill? What isn't fun about making the other ship die because you make your whole fleet more effective or the enemy less effective?
The real issue is not logi, it's the player. They would rather mash F1 on a primary instead of F1, F2 and F3 to cripple 3 enemy...
You seem to be suggesting that they would rather be the 8th Caracal than the 5th Blackbird/Celestis/Bellicose. As it stands, the optimal fleet setup for just about anything is a maximum of maybe 60% DPS ships, even really large fleets still want tons of support ships of various flavors. A lot of times an actual optimum setup has less than 40% DPS, especially since you can stack several logi and become virtually invincible.
I'm just saying maybe it'd be good if instead of optimal fleets being half DPS, they were optimal at 3/4ths DPS. Of course when everyone is jumping on the same bandwagon and nobody wants to fly logi your fleet is going to have zero logi power. That doesn't mean the first logi or two need to be enough to tank an entire small fleet, stacking infinitely no matter how many logi you choose to bring. As it stands, 1 logi cruiser can rep about 3 DPS cruisers worth of damage, and 1 EWAR cruiser can effectively remove 2-3 other ships of any subcap size from the battle while still being pretty solidly tanked.
What happens when both fleets bring enough logi? A stalemate. Stalemates suck.
Pirate ship Nightmare, can you fathom
Larger but with smaller spikes than Phantasm
The Succubus looks meaner
But the Revenant cleaner
Seems as they get bigger, the smaller spikes they has'm
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Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
2288
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Posted - 2015.09.30 17:27:29 -
[33] - Quote
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:The choice in small gang is already relevant. It's not my fault people would rather be the 14th caracal instead of the 1st Blackbird/Celestis/Bellicose. Those put more pressure on the logi on the other side than a caracal. Why aren't they flow more? They are not fun? What's so fun about shooting at ship that you won't kill? What isn't fun about making the other ship die because you make your whole fleet more effective or the enemy less effective?
The real issue is not logi, it's the player. They would rather mash F1 on a primary instead of F1, F2 and F3 to cripple 3 enemy... You seem to be suggesting that they would rather be the 8th Caracal than the 5th Blackbird/Celestis/Bellicose. As it stands, the optimal fleet setup for just about anything is a maximum of maybe 60% DPS ships, even really large fleets still want tons of support ships of various flavors. A lot of times an actual optimum setup has less than 40% DPS, especially since you can stack several logi and become virtually invincible. I'm just saying maybe it'd be good if instead of optimal fleets being half DPS, they were optimal at 3/4ths DPS. Of course when everyone is jumping on the same bandwagon and nobody wants to fly logi your fleet is going to have zero logi power. That doesn't mean the first logi or two need to be enough to tank an entire small fleet, stacking infinitely no matter how many logi you choose to bring. As it stands, 1 logi cruiser can rep about 3 DPS cruisers worth of damage, and 1 EWAR cruiser can effectively remove 2-3 other ships of any subcap size from the battle while still being pretty solidly tanked. What happens when both fleets bring enough logi? A stalemate. Stalemates suck.
You get a stalemate because both side brought defensive support (logi) and no one bothered to have offensive support (webs, TP, ECM, damp) to either counter logi or make the other ship more vulnerable to damage. Those are the support ship I very rarely see flown in small gangs that are power multiplier but people don't seem to want to fly them. I don't know what they see in those ships but you can always run in fleet of 14 caracals with 3 scythes as support but no fleet with 12 caracals, 1 belicose and 3 scythe. I don't think that fleet should be 6 caracals, 6 bellicose and 10 scythe but it should at elast try to cover more support roles than just logi. Fleet should not fly 50% support but they should have at least some after logi is counted before they claim that logi in absolutely unbreakable.
It's not about telling everybody they need to fly support but about fleets having at least some token support other than logi if they want to break the opposing logi. Webbing your target makes it take more damage while the logi don't rep for anything more. Same for a TP. Small gang feature lots of fast ship which mitigate lot of damage just by being fast a somewhat small (their sig) so countering those trait should be done instead of just ignored. |
Bobb Bobbington
The Cult of the Rare Pepes
54
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Posted - 2015.09.30 19:44:39 -
[34] - Quote
Why are people so obsessed with nerfing logi recently? It's like the new "roll back fozziesov and capital jump ranges" thread. They don't seem to OP, and have counters, which are Ewar, neuts, and alpha, not to mention any decent fleet can bring it's own without any trouble. Do people just want to nerf them so they don't have to fly them in fleet? |
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc
Test Alliance Please Ignore
2652
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Posted - 2015.09.30 21:27:59 -
[35] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:You get a stalemate because both side brought defensive support (logi) and no one bothered to have offensive support (webs, TP, ECM, damp) to either counter logi or make the other ship more vulnerable to damage.
False. Two optimal smallish fleets (50 ships or fewer), both fleets the same size, will inflict zero casualties against one another. This is because the logi is the most overpowered while EWAR, while overpowered, is still at the mercy of the very powerful ability for logi to counter the EWAR. You cannot say that either fleet is sub-optimal in this engagement because if they take out some EWAR and logi to replace with DPS, they start losing ships faster than they make the other side lose ships.
The only thing keeping these stalemates from being commonplace is people's general hatred of flying large numbers of EWAR and logi.
They're still overpowered.
Bobb Bobbington wrote:They don't seem to OP, and have counters, which are Ewar, neuts, and alpha, not to mention any decent fleet can bring it's own without any trouble.
Those are all things that counter almost anything else better than it counters logi.
Pirate ship Nightmare, can you fathom
Larger but with smaller spikes than Phantasm
The Succubus looks meaner
But the Revenant cleaner
Seems as they get bigger, the smaller spikes they has'm
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FT Diomedes
The Graduates
Get Off My Lawn
1771
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Posted - 2015.10.01 03:38:04 -
[36] - Quote
I sincerely hope CCP does not listen to all these people who want to see Logistics ships get nerfed into the ground. The mechanics of Eve combat work well at the moment. They support specialization and diversification. A few very vocal folks want to see it become more simple and straightforward. That is not a good thing.
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. So, why do I post here?
I'm stubborn.
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Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc
Test Alliance Please Ignore
2653
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Posted - 2015.10.01 05:26:46 -
[37] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:A few very vocal folks want to see it become more simple and straightforward. That is not a good thing.
I want to see it become more reasonably balanced without losing complexity. If anything, that should help make the complexity more valid and thus used.
Pirate ship Nightmare, can you fathom
Larger but with smaller spikes than Phantasm
The Succubus looks meaner
But the Revenant cleaner
Seems as they get bigger, the smaller spikes they has'm
|
Mr Mieyli
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
53
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Posted - 2015.10.01 06:51:54 -
[38] - Quote
Personally I think my idea in sig is a more interesting way to deal with large scale logi.
A case for more AoE in EvE
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Strata Maslav
V0LTA
WE FORM V0LTA
140
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Posted - 2015.10.01 13:57:46 -
[39] - Quote
Logistics are so strong that all large fleets are built around them.
Players spend hours trying to sqeeze out as much effective hitpoints on their ships so the logistics can 'catch' them. This makes fitting/flying of ships, much more predictable and monotonous.
The problem of Logistics is not that they can stop a primary'd pilot from dying, but can do so indefinitely.
Their are only two realistic scenarios is that you are instantly destroyed or saved.
In smaller fleets you get the more dramatic and more medium between these two, dying slowly. You have time limit for which you and your team must break you free and save you from the jaws of your opponents.
What we need is a way to break logistics repairs SLOWLY.
My proposal would be a new ammo type. The DPS would start incredibly slowly but it would ramp exponentially higher as the guns are left on a specific target. If you changed target then you would start with low damage again. You and your friends would need to lock down your target so they couldn't warp out or pull range, and logistics could rep the target to give them more time to escape, but eventually even with infinite RR the weapons would alpha through all of their HP.
Targets would have enough time to communicate, who they were tackled by or who was focusing their fire on them. An EWAR team could then break the lock of the DPS pilots to elongate their life. |
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc
Test Alliance Please Ignore
2653
|
Posted - 2015.10.01 16:13:49 -
[40] - Quote
Strata Maslav wrote:Logistics are so strong that all large fleets are built around them.
Players spend hours trying to sqeeze out as much effective hitpoints on their ships so the logistics can 'catch' them. This makes fitting/flying of ships, much more predictable and monotonous.
This is overwhelmingly true. Cruisers will spare 500MW for a 1600mm plate when most of the rest of their low slots are weapon enhancements rather than hardeners. Everyone is trying to get the EHP numbers, but minimal resistance values are all that is required. If you last long enough for logi to get you, you last forever.
It leads to commonly heard lines in fleet comms:
pilot: "I'm going down fast, guys!"
logi: "Don't worry, I've got you now!"
You'll hear this as soon as the logi has them target locked and is beginning to cycle remote reps, because they can already see that there are enough hit points remaining to complete the repair cycle. How fast the target is taking damage isn't even taken into consideration. When logi is repping you, you aren't going to die--or so the thinking goes.
Pirate ship Nightmare, can you fathom
Larger but with smaller spikes than Phantasm
The Succubus looks meaner
But the Revenant cleaner
Seems as they get bigger, the smaller spikes they has'm
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