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Lucian Corvinus Gallente Expert Systems	Posted - 2006.12.22 08:25:00 - [31] Nice to see the turret lobbyists can still smack Anyways, I think they are fine as is, and you can actually put in some rigs now that will buff your missile speed past 10 km/s And to the person proposing a lower dmg multiplier for increased speed, well actually the kinetic energy of the impact would get higher when the speed increased, so the dmg multiplier should be the other way around if anything
ThaMa Gebir Gallente Raddick Explorations	Posted - 2006.12.22 08:58:00 - [32] Ok, if you want missiles to fly faster then I want Large turrets to track the interceptors that are flying around me at insane speeds. That way I can hit them all the time like you will hit anything within range of you. Fair? Well on a serious note it is only when setup correctly can a ship actually avoid the fire from a missile ship, whereas if flying against a turret ship it can be more or less avoided. I have been on the recieving end of missiles all my eve time and it aint pretty when they hit everything in range. I however, distinctley remember when missiles were first overhauled and the fact that they now travel faster than they ever did in the past. What more could one want. Missiles are good in most if not all situations and if they were made to be good in fleet ops too then I feel that they would be overpowered seeing as they are already good in pve. As an aside, cruise missiles are pretty damn fast and I have seen how effective missiles in general can be effective in fleet ops, look at the bob easter video for my reasoning. All my own opinion only. Lets see if my sig can survive this round of *****ing There will be no survivors now that i'm around - Xorus pwnt - Immy!!!11
Syril Mert Dawn of a new Empire Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.12.22 09:27:00 - [33] I want my rails to always hit and my drones to move at triple speed. Alternatively I want the op to understand that we have different weapon systems for different jobs. If missiles suck for sniping range then don't use the raven at snipe range. The exact same way I don't use my nos domi at snipe range. At close range I hate those missiles, they always hit and always do their damage. It's not fair. Nerf missiles or make it so that missile boats can't target ships closer than 60km.
Ishana Minmatar The Black Rabbits	Posted - 2006.12.22 09:32:00 - [34] Here's a hint for the OP Don't bring a knife to a gun fight. _________________________________________________________ Please resize your signature to the limits specified in the forum rules, thanks. -wystler ([email protected])
Jaketh Ivanes Amarr 1st Praetorian Guard	Posted - 2006.12.22 09:32:00 - [35] This has probably been asnwered before, but I didn't have time to read it all. Simple answer: Don't engage at the enemy's preferred range, dictate it yourself. Fix the battle yourself. Is it easy, nope. And it shouldn't be. How do you dictate the battle, that you have to figure out yourself.
Escape Cat Gallente	Posted - 2006.12.22 10:19:00 - [36] Sounds like a good idea to me. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- This post may or may not have been made by a cat thats trying to escape.
ScreamingLord Sutch Hand in Mouth	Posted - 2006.12.22 11:08:00 - [37] Originally by: Tohmu Blackwing Dont forget, guns are not like missiles, they REQUIRE the support skills to make them work effectively. Are you implying missiles are easy mode? And I disagree with your idea, EvE rewards the patient and the informed. You had a choice to train guns but you didn't (uninformed at the time?) Now it seems you lack the patience to get the skills required for the fleet combat role. Or lets take another tack. Can you please make it so my bullets follow an interceptor round in circles until he goes capdead and then wtfgank him in a "oneshot" pls?
Bohoba Caldari Dragons United Pure.	Posted - 2006.12.22 11:28:00 - [38] Edited by: Bohoba on 22/12/2006 11:29:36 Ya they nerf'ed the T2 torps so bad I wont even think aboout buy anymore was when I took a full cargo of T2 torps to the pos take down and only getting 640 damage before it was 1124 wiht ban now they are just a waste T1 4tw hehe I get 782 damage with T1 and yes skills maxed out to 4 and 5 Get Into the Game it makes it fun for all
Kappas. Galaxy Punks Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.22 11:35:00 - [39] Or their POS was tanked?
Nev Clavain Wise Guys Rogue Method Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.22 11:47:00 - [40] Well it seems to me that the OP wants one of the main advantages of gunnery, without any of the main drawbacks. Missiles are fine as they are. A good fleet commander should be able to use a band of Torp Ravens as effectively as a band of gunnery ships. Put them together shooting the same primary,and yes they are rather a waste of time, as the primary gets downed before the torps reach their target. Use each group separately, and you might have a result. How about, one target for turrets, and a secondary target for missile users? It's been suggested before but the OP seems unwilling to accept that gunnery should have any advantage whatsoever over misiles. Missiles should not be allowed one of the saving graces of turrets. Also not all turrets hit at uber range. In fact half of all turrets struggle to hit past 40km or so for any decent damage. Furthermore to get these 200km ranges you are talking about involves gimping your ship for doing anything else. At least 3-4 tracking mods are required except for maybe the rokh (ooh and funnily enough this ultimate sniper belongs to the dev's favourite race of missile users), so tracking mods yet another thing missile users don't have to think about. Missiles are useless in fleet engagements if you try and use them like guns. If you use them taking into account the facts of what they are, they can be effective. Justify why missiles should stand toe to toe with guns at extreme range, without resorting to some fallacy about it not making sense in real life (this is a game, you might notice that ships have a constant thrust too and yet they also have a max speed), and instead basing your arguments on game balance.
Tobias Sjodin Caldari Ore Mongers SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.22 11:59:00 - [41] Quit whining, missiles are fine. [OMG! SMASH!]
Mitten Caldari Gloves	Posted - 2006.12.22 12:09:00 - [42] Only read a couple replies. But to those people who replied saying projectiles insta pwn, Guess what... I have 9m sp in gunnery. my missile user char has 4m in missiles, and his t2 cruise hit very close to that "insta pwn" level of my proj 9m sp gunnery char.
Kerfira	Posted - 2006.12.22 12:12:00 - [43] I'm primarily a missile user myself. Missiles are fine as they are! A missile always hits. A gun hits instantly. Missiles hit with full damage at any range. Guns accuracy deteriorate with range. Fairly well balanced overall. Each has advantages and disadvantages. Deal with it. Your missile boat is NOT a sniper, so it should NOT be out with the sniping fleet! Your missile boat should be with the support. Close range, armored to the max, sensor boosted, T2 precision cruise missiles. You'll rip their support to pieces. The missile ships role in a fleet is NOT a long-range fleet ship. If changes were made as you suggested, the other ship types would loose their value as missile ships would be way too good in ALL aspects of the game. If you can't use a missile ship effectively in fleet battles, the fault is yours! General advice: Stop whining!
d026 Herrscher der Zeit Jagdgeschwader The Pentagram	Posted - 2006.12.22 12:32:00 - [44] I dont see a problem introducing another "sniper" missile. Low base dmg to be on pair with longrange ammo dps wise, extremely fast and long flight time.
Nev Clavain Wise Guys Rogue Method Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.22 12:45:00 - [45] Originally by: d026 I dont see a problem introducing another "sniper" missile. Low base dmg to be on pair with longrange ammo dps wise, extremely fast and long flight time. Looking at your sig, I can see exactly why you don't see a problem with it. It is, I would suggest, that if anything were added that might benefit the Caldari in any way, you wouldn't even start looking for a problem with it.
Phoenix Lord The Arrow Project The ARR0W Project	Posted - 2006.12.22 12:45:00 - [46] The one and only real drawback to missiles atm is that they have to travel to do damage. Make them hit nearly instantly and caldari will be way ***** unbalanced. CCP already gave Caldari the best sniper in the game, what the ** else do you want. Just a FYI, ravens arent useless in PVP. Go out in small gank gangs once in a while and dont be scared to get close. Sounds like youre just too scared to risk your raven by getting close, so instead you stay far far away from the battle and still expect to do massive damage? Arrow Capital Ship Sales
Isyel Minmatar Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2006.12.22 13:15:00 - [47] Funny. A few times we started talking about this in alliance chat and almost every time a certain Caldari only pilot said, for example 'lol, killed <insert something T2 here>' and the argument quickly stopped after learning he was in a raven. No, they DON'T need a boost. Sure they don't work in fleet, but why SHOULD everything work in a fleet? Ask Burn Eden about Ravens in PvP, they could tell you stuff. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Originally by: Wrangler We don't want to discriminate anyone! We want both anti-social and social players to grief each other!
PKenO	Posted - 2006.12.22 13:25:00 - [48] It is an interesting problem. Since our earliest days Im sure most players instantly realised the pros and cons of each platform. I trained missiles on my gallente when I realised that trying to do things with guns usually meant needing an array of skills for the guns, for the tanking (due to range issues) etc I would not support a modification to the existing layout of things for the reasons already mentioned numerous times in this thread. However I'd support giving missile users a role that can be reliably useful (trying to hit something with slow missiles in high lag, against an aligned enemy is pointless). In my mind this would mean creating a long range variation of the traditional idea of what a 'rocket' is. That is, high velocity, low payload, really poor agility. When I say "low payload" I mean slightly lower than a light missile (tech 1). Or perhaps no damage at all. Create some sort of high speed, expensive missile that does something else. Perhaps explodes in a manner that will momentarily dampen, or 'ping' the enemy having an effect like target painting. This way if you absolutely must attend sniping fleet battles in a raven, you can do something. Anything else though..well, time to train gunnery. After all, they had to train missiles for pve right?
Gonada Gallente Cross Roads	Posted - 2006.12.22 13:30:00 - [49] if anything, ccp needs to nerf missles. why? barely any support skills. any noob can jump into a raven with missle skills and 2 mill sp and be able to do things gunnery guys cant, IE: lvl 4 missons. and yes , ravens/ missles are easy mode,dont forget it. -I don't necessarily agree with everything I say.- -nerf Missles-
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.22 14:10:00 - [50] You'd have to give drones more speed to- waiting for an Ogre to travel those 60kms is like waiting for a British Rail train Or, alternatively- get used to it. All weapons have their pros and cons- missiles have innumerous pros, and this is one of their cons. As is life. If you want a weapon that behaves like a turret, train turrets- missiles are already fine and dandy. -----------------------------------------------
Elvarien Caldari The Night's Watch THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2006.12.22 15:49:00 - [51] I`m caldari and even I disagree.. No. Every weapon has its advantages and disadvantages missiles are playing eve on easy mode suffer the concequences. If you dont like that train rails or something similar as every weapon has its own specific role. >--- A properly fitted manticore is Ninja.
Vrizuh Eve Defence Force Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.12.22 16:22:00 - [52] Originally by: Gonada if anything, ccp needs to nerf missles. why? barely any support skills. any noob can jump into a raven with missle skills and 2 mill sp and be able to do things gunnery guys cant, IE: lvl 4 missons. and yes , ravens/ missles are easy mode,dont forget it. Hi, You do realise that you've just basically given the argument for not nerfing them right? If they're only good at pve, then why nerf their pve as well? If they're good at pve and pvp, but only require a small amount of sp, then any idiot can train em. If missiles required a huge amount of skill to use, then you wouldnt have an arguement to keep em out of fleet effectiveness. If they dont require a lot of skill, then why whine about them? Train em up and use them. I needed more isk, so I took a risk. I mined some ore then fled once more. I'll return to the core to escape the war!
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.12.22 16:45:00 - [53] Originally by: Gonada any noob can jump into a raven with missle skills and 2 mill sp and be able to do things gunnery guys cant, IE: lvl 4 missons. Even better: 160k SP in missiles lvl 3 BC Heeeello, lvl 4s with drake Although I have rather good support skills Anyway: to repeat the main point which the OP (and others) ignore, ignore and...ignore. For their max range missiles have very good damage. And are a lot more effecient at close ranges than longrange turrets because they do not have to worry about tracking. What balances these advantages is the fact that missiles are not instant damage. You want to remove the disadvantage but keep the advantage.
Gonada Gallente Cross Roads	Posted - 2006.12.22 16:48:00 - [54] Even better: 160k SP in missiles lvl 3 BC Heeeello, lvl 4s with drake ----------------- lol -I don't necessarily agree with everything I say.- -nerf Missles-
lacretia	Posted - 2006.12.22 17:12:00 - [55] To start with...as a missile user I would love this change...but in the same way I would like all my ships to have an extra 50% resistance attached to armor, shields, and hull. It would be fun to be uber, but it would be almost like cheating. So...I am going to have to disagree. If you use your missile/torpedo boat how it is designed then you can still take part in the battles. You just have to dictate range. If you are warping in on an enemy fleet, then let your snipers stop at 250...you stop at 50-100. If you are scared of getting shot at, then stay at the dock. Also...if the badguy you just unleashed a horde of missiles at warps away...then guess what! You took him out of the battle for 30 seconds to a minute while he warps away, and warps back. That is time he wont be spending shooting back. You have effectively taken him out of the battle. In the mean time, your snipers are pounding away with one less ship to stress over. You have to admit, the psychological effect of having a wave of torpedoes flying in at your fleet can be of use as well. Problem with guns is that the damage is largely hidden from your fleetmates. But watching 2-3 ravens unload is like watching fireworks that bite! I like the idea of them speeding up as they move along though, the "realism" of constant acceleration makes sense. But that would apply to our ships as well...and the "space" in EvE is far more like ocean/water physics than real vacuum of space physics. In short...know your limitations, and know your strengths. Maximize your strength, minimize your weaknesses. As someone said, a good fleet commander will know exactly what do do with a flaming torpedo death Raven, a bad commander...well call in sick when that one is leading the ops.
Ace Frehley Minmatar Dark-Rising Fallen Souls	Posted - 2006.12.22 17:16:00 - [56] The day when i get fof ammo to my gunz we can start talk about chaning missiles. And then if you speed the missiles up, then I want constant damage on my gunz at a presic range. I wanna have a lowest hit so kinda know my damage. And finally I wanna have eatlst 3-4 type of each ammotype per range. So I can decide wich damage I will hit my target with. hmm with these changes i dont see a really diff between gunz and missiles. But i think ccp want some diffs between the weaponplatforms right? Learn to deal and live with the diffs and use it to your advance. Stop whine it is good at is cuz I use both missiles and guns. Girljerms is more lethal then a fleet of 1000 Tempests Yeah I¦m nude, I¦m a swede and I¦m armed with bad jokes http://www.petitiononline.com/titan147/petition.htmlWe wanna know the truth
Rooker	Posted - 2006.12.22 17:44:00 - [57] I wouldn't say missiles are completely bad for PVP. I watched a Navy Raven (with a couple of tackling frigs) take down a Domi yesterday. I was a little shocked at that, but there it was. The Raven was sitting practically on top of him, not sniping. How about reduce either the damage of the missiles or the firing rate of the launchers (or both), reduce flight-time of the missiles, then speed up the velocity so someone can't run from them? Keep the DPS and range exactly the same, but speed them up so they arrive quicker once they're launched? --- Space For Rent
j0sephine Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.12.22 17:44:00 - [58] "Second, no one is suggesting instantpwnage for missiles. But pls try to tell me that missiles play a significant role in PvP at the fleet level. They dont. (..) Not hitting your target means you are useless." You have quite unsolvable problem here, simple as that. Until your missiles travel fast enough to hit the primary targets (which would mean ability to cross up to 250 km in 1-2 seconds) they are still "delegated to second seat hitting secondary targets and hence useless" by your own words. If you do make the missiles travel this fast, what disadvantage do they have compared to guns, and what reason would anyone have to use anything but the missiles? Once you have this solved, the actual debate might start, until then all people see is just "waaaah waaah i trained missile skills and they aren't that useful in all situations" ... to which the answer can only be "well, duh" because nothing is.
Vrizuh Eve Defence Force Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.12.22 19:21:00 - [59] Originally by: Aramendel Edited by: Aramendel on 22/12/2006 16:55:39 Originally by: Vrizuh If they dont require a lot of skill, then why whine about them? Train em up and use them. sigh Why does this most mornic of statements continously appear in such threads? It might be hard for you to understand, but it's not about the effect to a single person. It's about general game balance and diversity. Making one thing a lot more powerful than anything else is not a good idea, because eventually everyone will use only this thing (it being easy to train is actually worse there since this will happen much faster then). 99% of eve using 1% of all ships items sure sounds fun...not. I added the emphasis. Let me explain in really simple terms so that you understand why the "moronic" statement keeps coming up. TURRETS ARE MORE POWERFUL IN FLEET COMBAT THAN MISSILES DUE TO THE LOW MISSILE HIT RATE THAT COMES AS A RESULT OF LONG RANGE SNIPE & WARP FESTS. Continuing on in case the clue bat was too soft: 99% OF FLEET FIGHTERS ARE ALREADY USING TURRETS INSTEAD OF MISSILES FOR THE REASON STATED ABOVE. By your own admission, that is a fault and a flaw. Personally, I think this way is right. Most games will have specs or armor sets which are better at one thing (pve or pvp) than the other. Caldari missile boats are PvE ships. They are not overpowered, because again, it takes almost no SP to gain a degree of competance with missiles. PvE should not be hard in Eve. The pve is basically the same mission over and over, and its always "slaughter those guys". So I think that this is not overpowering. Just buy a kestrel, a ferox and a raven. You're covered for everything. However, should you choose to use a Drake for PvP, you should have a chance to connect a hit with your enemy, or reduce his chance to hit you, or increase an allys' chance to hit him. I agree that at 200km range, the guy who specced for his t2 sniping gear should not get smacked around by the T1 newb raven. However, the sniping ship should still view a missile boat as something other than a free target. Finally, think about this from a caldari perspective. If missiles required more sp, it would be UNFAIR to put rails on our ships, and make our missiles not connect. Missiles HAVE to be n00bmode because otherwise a caldari character would have to train his hybrid turrets as well as his cruise launchers just to match a gallente running around with nothing but turrets. 2 level V skills vs 1, gee, which race would become redundant overnight? I needed more isk, so I took a risk. I mined some ore then fled once more. I'll return to the core to escape the war!
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2006.12.22 19:38:00 - [60] Originally by: Tohmu Blackwing .... I appreciate that you might disagree with me. But I don't think the solution to this problem is for me (and many, many others) to retrain to 425s. Dont forget, guns are not like missiles, they REQUIRE the support skills to make them work effectively. So it is a lot more than just one skill path that needs to be re-trained. Besides... that is a pretty good indication that something IS unbalanced when the game forces a character to completely re-train to be useful in PvP. So let's get it straight: 1) missile are good even without the support skills, guns not; 2) missile do multiple types of damage, most of the "guns" - hybrid or lasers, do specific types; 3) missiles require a good time to reach a distant target; 4) missiles have the longest range in the game (maybe not, there is the Rokh now), at least with basic skills; 5) missiles in range always hit; 6) no traking penalities; 7) damage reduction based on target speed. So far as a generic use I see the missiles have advantages on guns, and you want to take away the primary gun user advantage? BTW, another mayor weapons system has even worst problems: DRONES. they are: slower than missiles, dumber, killable and do less damage. Ah, and shorter ranged. I admit they are more versatiles, if you put in them a tonload of skills. So if CCP give us teleporting drones with smarter AI, you will get ista travelling missiles. OK?

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