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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
14560
|
Posted - 2015.10.02 15:19:50 -
[31] - Quote
David Asanari wrote: You on the other hand called me a "slime". I'd say that's an insult.
I'd say that's a fact.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Ralph King-Griffin
Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance
12174
|
Posted - 2015.10.02 15:20:03 -
[32] - Quote
How you can say thisDavid Asanari wrote:What a load of child responses on two pages.
and this
David Asanari wrote: These activities have as much to do with PvP as a high school shooting.
In the same post without even a hint of irony or self awareness in mind boggling. stfu before you get yourself in trouble.
Better the Devil you know.
=]|[=
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Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
3284
|
Posted - 2015.10.02 15:29:30 -
[33] - Quote
My personal preference would be a mixture between the current system and the previous one.
Wherein corporations are restricted in the number of wars they can declare, but pay a much lower fee to declare war. This would incentivize smaller pvp groups and remove the pay-barrier that prevents groups of newer or less experienced players from forming highsec pvp corps. Alliances would remain unrestricted but would pay as much as they do now.
I'd also like to see the ally system opened up to work both ways, allowing the aggressor to bring in an ally if the defender does. This would present a risk of escalation that would disincentivize mercs hopping on to any war where they think the aggressor is easy kills and also facilitate big spiraling conflicts that would be super cool.
Both of those things put together should help to both break up larger groups by making corps actually competitive with alliances and lower the bar to entry for highsec pvp without nerfing anything. |

Ralph King-Griffin
Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance
12175
|
Posted - 2015.10.02 15:41:05 -
[34] - Quote
I really like the idea of an escalating conflict
Better the Devil you know.
=]|[=
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David Asanari
WH of rage
0
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Posted - 2015.10.02 15:45:28 -
[35] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:How you can say this David Asanari wrote:What a load of child responses on two pages.
and this David Asanari wrote: These activities have as much to do with PvP as a high school shooting.
In the same post without even a hint of irony or self awareness in mind boggling. stfu before you get yourself in trouble.
I used a very bad thing in an analogy to show how absurd the claim of "PvP" is related to to excessive hi-sec wardeccing is. Analogy is something a 7th grader should be able to understand. So instead of looking for insults where none exist you should be more worried about your comprehension abilities. And telling people to stfu can definitely get YOU in trouble.
A couple of CODE carebears turn to personal abuse when in danger of being moved from their comfy perch. That's a lot of whining for those who claim to be "hi-sec savers". |

David Asanari
WH of rage
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.02 15:50:37 -
[36] - Quote
Vimsy Vortis wrote:My personal preference would be a mixture between the current system and the previous one.
Wherein corporations are restricted in the number of wars they can declare, but pay a much lower fee to declare war. This would incentivize smaller pvp groups and remove the pay-barrier that prevents groups of newer or less experienced players from forming highsec pvp corps. Alliances would remain unrestricted but would pay as much as they do now.
I'd also like to see the ally system opened up to work both ways, allowing the aggressor to bring in an ally if the defender does. This would present a risk of escalation that would disincentivize mercs hopping on to any war where they think the aggressor is easy kills and also facilitate big spiraling conflicts that would be super cool.
Both of those things put together should help to both break up larger groups by making corps actually competitive with alliances and lower the bar to entry for highsec pvp without nerfing anything.
There is a lot of interesting ideas in what you're saying, except for one thing:
Quote:"Alliances would remain unrestricted but would pay as much as they do now." This is the exact issue I'm talking about as a number of hi-sec alliances are abusing the wardec mechanism right now. |

Ralph King-Griffin
Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance
12176
|
Posted - 2015.10.02 16:13:20 -
[37] - Quote
David Asanari wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote:How you can say this David Asanari wrote:What a load of child responses on two pages.
and this David Asanari wrote: These activities have as much to do with PvP as a high school shooting.
In the same post without even a hint of irony or self awareness in mind boggling. stfu before you get yourself in trouble. I used a very bad thing in an analogy to show how absurd the claim of "PvP" is related to to excessive hi-sec wardeccing is. Analogy is something a 7th grader should be able to understand. So instead of looking for insults where none exist you should be more worried about your comprehension abilities. And telling people to stfu can definitely get YOU in trouble. A couple of CODE carebears turn to personal abuse when in danger of being moved from their comfy perch. That's a lot of whining for those who claim to be "hi-sec savers". duuuuuuuuude you cant compare digital actions in an on-line role-play game to horrifically tragic irl violent actions twords children and expect to have 1) any respect left 2) anyone take you seriously or 3) posting privileges.
that analogy is soo far gone i don't even...
Better the Devil you know.
=]|[=
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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
14564
|
Posted - 2015.10.02 16:48:08 -
[38] - Quote
David Asanari wrote: Analogy is something a 7th grader should be able to understand.
I agree, which makes it all the more funny how you keep misusing the concept.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1414
|
Posted - 2015.10.02 16:52:35 -
[39] - Quote
I think a 10 agressive acts limit would do wonders to normalize the current war dec system.
You get 10 active agressive acts. You can have 10 war decs that you initiate, 10 assists that you accept to help someone or you can slide the bar side to side for any combination that adds up to 10.
If you wardec an alliance that's 1 agressive act. If 20 corps leave that alliance you now have 21 active war decs, but only 1 agressive act (the fail cascade is passive).
If someone war decs you and you put out for assist and get 12 corps on your side that adds up to zero agressive acts for you, but the 12 assisting corps each get 1 boink for actively pushing the assist button.
In the current system war decs are totally meaningless. 100+ decs is just about cheap targets. There is no meaning behind them.
Don't listen to Vimsy. If you check that chick's kb you can see she's just a risk averse free loader abusing the system. She'll hold on to the current crap mechanics for dear life. She pvp's all day every day and never loses ships. That would lead you to believe she's either risk averse or pvp elite. I wanted to find out and challenged her to a thunderdome 1v1 (see crime and punishment forum for details). It's basically 2 pilots enter one pilot leaves. She refused. Started clucking about it being dumb to take fights you might lose and some such nonsense. She's self documented she's only in it for the win, so disregard her as a cowering moppet terrified she might lose her current security blanket. |

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
14564
|
Posted - 2015.10.02 16:55:41 -
[40] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote: Don't listen to Vimsy.
Conversely, I would advise every not to listen to you, since you've spent pretty much your whole posting history crying about how PvP doesn't have oppressive handcuffs and punitive mechanics attached to every aspect of it.
You're a disgrace.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|

Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1414
|
Posted - 2015.10.02 17:05:08 -
[41] - Quote
Vimsy Vortis wrote:My personal preference would be a mixture between the current system and the previous one.
Wherein corporations are restricted in the number of wars they can declare, but pay a much lower fee to declare war. This would incentivize smaller pvp groups and remove the pay-barrier that prevents groups of newer or less experienced players from forming highsec pvp corps. Alliances would remain unrestricted but would pay as much as they do now.
I'd also like to see the ally system opened up to work both ways, allowing the aggressor to bring in an ally if the defender does. This would present a risk of escalation that would disincentivize mercs hopping on to any war where they think the aggressor is easy kills and also facilitate big spiraling conflicts that would be super cool.
Both of those things put together should help to both break up larger groups by making corps actually competitive with alliances and lower the bar to entry for highsec pvp without nerfing anything.
Except that most of the hs merc corps are all in the same chat channel and work things out. (I was in that or one of those channels years ago) So you know your 'escallating blah blah blay' is just a poorly disguised request to allow agressors to bring in help if they get over their head. The risk averse just drips off of you sweety. We can smell it on you as soon as you walk into the room.
Even with the current mechanics that truely favor you - you still want more. All the time saying the current system is what the carebears asked for. I'll clear that up for you. The carebears didn't get together and ask CCP to create a war dec system where 4 100 dude merc corp/alliances can hold 100+ active decs open and sit in 6 locations in new eden and just pummel them. It's ludicris to claim the bears asked to be shot like fish in a barrel. Just stop with the rhetoric. It's garbage talk and we can all see that.
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David Asanari
WH of rage
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.02 17:07:16 -
[42] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:David Asanari wrote: Analogy is something a 7th grader should be able to understand.
I agree, which makes it all the more funny how you keep misusing the concept.
I'm not sure you know the concept of the word "concept".
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Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
3287
|
Posted - 2015.10.02 17:09:07 -
[43] - Quote
It's not like I have 5+ years of experience as both an carebear defender and as a director in a highsec mercenary corp/alliance and been witness to several different iterations of the war declaration system or anything.
I wouldn't know anything about it.
Instead you should listen to people with no relevant experience who're openly disdainful of the fact that highsec PVP exists at all. Those are the people whose input about highsec PVP mechanics is valuable.
Quote:Except that most of the hs merc corps are all in the same chat channel and work things out.
The only chat channel most merc corps are in is Merc Contracts. The idea that every merc corp is in cahoots with the others is a flagrant lie that's been perpetuated since the dawn of time by carebears to justify their unwillingness to interact with other players. It's obviously a lie too, and this is evidenced by the fact that these groups are perpetually at war with each other.
We were literally at war with marmite for six months this year, P I R A T for almost two months and both those groups have been at war with eachother too, not to mention all the lesser merc entities. |

Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1414
|
Posted - 2015.10.02 17:10:40 -
[44] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote: Don't listen to Vimsy.
Conversely, I would advise every not to listen to you, since you've spent pretty much your whole posting history crying about how PvP doesn't have oppressive handcuffs and punitive mechanics attached to every aspect of it. You're a disgrace.
Care to compare kb and pvp history?
And to clarify, I'm actually saying HS pvp does have oppressive handcuffs and punitive mechanics attatched to several aspects of it.
I'd just like to see it balanced.
Are you a vimsy alt? |

Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1414
|
Posted - 2015.10.02 17:12:56 -
[45] - Quote
Vimsy Vortis wrote:It's not like I have 5+ years of experience as both an carebear defender and as a director in a highsec mercenary corp/alliance and been witness to several different iterations of the war declaration system or anything.
I wouldn't know anything about it.
Instead you should listen to people with no relevant experience who're openly disdainful of the fact that highsec PVP exists at all. Those are the people whose input about highsec PVP mechanics is valuable.
Let's do a 1v1 sweety. You and me. I'd like to see how you feel about an actual balanced engagement.
Until you can accept a 1v1 it's pretty obvious you're just in favor of unbalanced garbage play and should be ignored.
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David Asanari
WH of rage
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.02 17:13:36 -
[46] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote: duuuuuuuuude you cant compare digital actions in an on-line role-play game to horrifically tragic irl violent actions twords children and expect to have 1) any respect left 2) anyone take you seriously or 3) posting privileges.
that analogy is soo far gone i don't even...
Yes, I can. because I am not a hypocrite. An analogy is just that - an analogy. The exaggeration is there to emphasize the absurdity of the PvP claims. It's not offensive because I'm not supporting or praising the evil action. The IRL correlation and anything after that is in your own mind, so if you are upset by that, you should see a specialist about why it's causing this reaction in your head. You cling to the words instead of trying to understand what they mean. Stop blaming someone else for the associations your own mind creates. |

Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
3287
|
Posted - 2015.10.02 17:15:35 -
[47] - Quote
You're welcome to come to Nourvukaiken and 1v1 me whenever you want. |

Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1414
|
Posted - 2015.10.02 17:19:39 -
[48] - Quote
Vimsy Vortis wrote:You're welcome to come to Nourvukaiken and 1v1 me whenever you want.
Is that a yes you are accepting a 1v1?
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Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
3287
|
Posted - 2015.10.02 17:32:31 -
[49] - Quote
You've always been welcome to try and initiate combat with me in any way you want, whenever you want.
However instead of actually doing something you just sit around challenging me to duels on the forums as if I'm going to go out of my way to facilitate something I've got no interest in participating in, which obviously isn't going to happen. |

David Asanari
WH of rage
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.02 17:44:23 -
[50] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:I think a 10 agressive acts limit would do wonders to normalize the current war dec system.
You get 10 active agressive acts. You can have 10 war decs that you initiate, 10 assists that you accept to help someone or you can slide the bar side to side for any combination that adds up to 10.
If you wardec an alliance that's 1 agressive act. If 20 corps leave that alliance you now have 21 active war decs, but only 1 agressive act (the fail cascade is passive).
If someone war decs you and you put out for assist and get 12 corps on your side that adds up to zero agressive acts for you, but the 12 assisting corps each get 1 boink for actively pushing the assist button.
Thank you for actually contributing something to the original discussion. This sounds logical.
Serendipity Lost wrote:In the current system war decs are totally meaningless. 100+ decs is just about cheap targets. There is no meaning behind them.
This summarizes the problem very well. |

Andrew Gernander
Antisocial Inquisitors
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.02 18:06:15 -
[51] - Quote
The problem is that high sec is missing a formal "limited war" mechanic.
We already have Cold War mechanics in high sec. Ganking, market manipulation, scamming, bumping, talking smack in local, mission baiting, stealing exploration sites, eating all the ice in the ice field, AWOX, corp theft, forum warrioring, etc. Anything that makes the target's life difficult without an actual declaration of war.
We already have Conventional War mechanics in high sec. I don't like you, so I'm paying CONCORD a fee to rain genocide on you for a week with the option to keep going and even unarmed ships are fair game. I can do this as much as I want as long as I can afford it and that's where the abuse comes in as ISK flows like water for the larger groups.
We are missing a Limited War mechanic where an entity is challenging another entity for a regional asset in high sec but are not interested in anything else.
Something like...
1: Right click on an anchored object in overview 2: Select "declare war over" 3: Pay CONCORD a fee based on the value of the anchored object * sphere of influence (grid, system, constellation). 4: After warm-up period, aggressor and defender legally have at it within the sphere of influence and nowhere else. 5: If the defender never shows, the aggressor is able to claim the asset freely.
Doing this gives the wardec a purpose and if conventional wars were made more expensive if the target corp was social only (no anchored assets in space) then this would possibly solve a large number of problems.
It would also allow a much smaller, casual corp to gather up the gumption to challenge a larger alliance for a piece of the pie, without getting shot like fish in a barrel in other parts of space. If an alliance has a dead stick in my part of space, they've moved out, and I want it, I should be able to declare war over just that dead stick. The alliance can decide if I'm worth it or not and I as the aggressor take the gamble that they're not going to want it. Instead of mindless spamming, strategy is introduced.
If the goal is player retention, then giving newer and smaller players the chance to actually gamble against a larger corporation for something then win or lose it by effort on that battlefield would go a lot farther than "ok, I see you on my overview, congratulations, we are at war." |

David Asanari
WH of rage
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.02 18:11:04 -
[52] - Quote
Andrew Gernander wrote:The problem is that high sec is missing a formal "limited war" mechanic.
Something like...
1: Right click on an anchored object in overview 2: Select "declare war over" 3: Pay CONCORD a fee based on the value of the anchored object * sphere of influence (grid, system, constellation). 4: After warm-up period, aggressor and defender legally have at it within the sphere of influence and nowhere else. 5: If the defender never shows, the aggressor is able to claim the asset freely.
Doing this gives the wardec a purpose and if conventional wars were made more expensive if the target corp was social only (no anchored assets in space) then this would possibly solve a large number of problems.
It would also allow a much smaller, casual corp to gather up the gumption to challenge a larger alliance for a piece of the pie, without getting shot like fish in a barrel in other parts of space. If an alliance has a dead stick in my part of space, they've moved out, and I want it, I should be able to declare war over just that dead stick. The alliance can decide if I'm worth it or not and I as the aggressor take the gamble that they're not going to want it. Instead of mindless spamming, strategy is introduced.
If the goal is player retention, then giving newer and smaller players the chance to actually gamble against a larger corporation for something then win or lose it by effort on that battlefield would go a lot farther than "ok, I see you on my overview, congratulations, we are at war."
That's an interesting addition, perhaps. But it won't solve the unlimited wardeccing of course.
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Andrew Gernander
Antisocial Inquisitors
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.02 18:20:21 -
[53] - Quote
Well that's why you increase the wardec fee for a corp with no assets in space or possibly make a social corp class which is much more expensive to wardec.
In nature, an object follows the path of least resistance. If given the choice of having to spend 1bln + to declare war on a bunch of guys with only mining barges to their names, or taking the contract on the war where the guy has already said he's going to be going after X tower in Y system during Z week, I'll take the second offer as there's a better chance of a fight.
Of course, if you're in a social group and have decided to talk smack against a larger entity, then the larger entity should be able to suck up the cost to lay the smack down, or just go out and gank you.
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Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
3288
|
Posted - 2015.10.02 19:13:21 -
[54] - Quote
My corp has no anchored assets. Why should it cost more to declare war on me than it does to declare war on an industrial corp with a POS tower? |

Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1416
|
Posted - 2015.10.02 19:17:06 -
[55] - Quote
Andrew Gernander wrote:Well that's why you increase the wardec fee for a corp with no assets in space or possibly make a social corp class which is much more expensive to wardec.
In nature, an object follows the path of least resistance. If given the choice of having to spend 1bln + to declare war on a bunch of guys with only mining barges to their names, or taking the contract on the war where the guy has already said he's going to be going after X tower in Y system during Z week, I'll take the second offer as there's a better chance of a fight.
Of course, if you're in a social group and have decided to talk smack against a larger entity, then the larger entity should be able to suck up the cost to lay the smack down, or just go out and gank you.
So I happened to be in a merc (ish) chat channel a few nights ago. A dude shows up and asks "are you guys taking contracts?" Not my channel so I waited for a few minutes and no one answered the guy, so just to be funny by swiping a contract from them right in thier own channel I negotiated w/ the dude. He's going to mail me next week to finalize, but bottom line he's going to pay me a billion isk to wonk a guy in a particular ship in a particular station. It's literally going to be a 30 second job.
My point is some random is willing to pay me 1 billion to wonk a dude w/ no real discussion. 1 billion isk isn't all that much. There is sooooo much liquid and semi liquid isk in eve right now I don't think trying to put a financial limit on decs could really be a thing. If you want to correct war dec fees, then make it lower for smaller decing bigger and higher for bigger decing little. It's a great isk sink for the game and scaling it that way would encourage new groups to enter into HS pvp and would reward small lean effective groups and kind of put the kabosch on large bloated freeloading alliances.
There is too much wealth in the game to have high entry fee add meaning to HS pvp. I'll use the goons as an example. They're really good at eve and have been for quite a few years. Think of the biggest isk amount your brain can handle. They have more. A lot more, so if you want to raise the dec price enough to make a 5000 dude alliance think twice - I'd start somewhere in the trillions. And the thing about goons, if you made it prohibitively high, they would take the challenge and do it anyway just because. So price scalling - yes to promote the little guys getting into the game, but never to make large groups think twice about it.
If you want to put the war dec ship back on course - limit the number of concurrent agressions. You want meaning back in empire pvp then you have to take away the current 'unlimited decs' meta. From the lore aspect - you're already paying a fee for CONCORDS sanction, so just issue dance cards with only 10 slots. |

Mag's
the united
20329
|
Posted - 2015.10.02 19:20:44 -
[56] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:I'd just like to see it balanced. Ahh, so: "Just one more nerf and it will be balanced."?
Destination SkillQueue:-
It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
|

David Asanari
WH of rage
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.02 19:30:02 -
[57] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote:I'd just like to see it balanced. Ahh, so: "Just one more nerf and it will be balanced."?
It's not a nerf. It's a correction of a previously introduced behavior that is abused. |

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
14565
|
Posted - 2015.10.02 19:38:55 -
[58] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote: Are you a vimsy alt?
No, I'm the logi alt of an old nullsec line member/awoxer.
And if you want to bring this to ad homs, linking your post history is all I'd have to do.
Serendipity Lost wrote: I'd just like to see it balanced.
Balance is the last thing people like you want.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|

Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
3293
|
Posted - 2015.10.02 19:41:10 -
[59] - Quote
But what you're proposing isn't a correction. It's an additional limitation where none previously existed.
Prior to inferno alliances had no limitation on he number of wars they could declare, after inferno they still have no limitation, but for some reason now they declare a lot more wars.
You should try and identify the reason why that has happened and seek to address the actual cause, rather than crying for another nerf because the last set of nerfs didn't work. |

Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1416
|
Posted - 2015.10.02 19:41:50 -
[60] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote:I'd just like to see it balanced. Ahh, so: "Just one more nerf and it will be balanced."?
Quit the rhetoric. I don't want it nerfed. I want it meaningful. HS pvp can be a lot of fun. The biggest plus to HS pvp is no hot drops. That's a huge incentive for folks to use game mechanics to fight each other in HS. Being able to make some explosions knowing 100% that a super and a ton of support isn't going to land on your head and end you is pretty darn special. You can still get blobbed, sure, but with reasonable intel you can get around it.
I'm not trying to nerf, I'm trying to balance. 100+ open deck turkey shoots aren't balanced. 100+ pilot alliances having 10,000 RANDOM war targets in HS isn't balanced.
I just want it to be fun and meaingful again. Right now it isn't. I'm not the coroner trying to nail a coffin shut, I'm the EMT in the back of the ambulance charging up those paddle thingers trying to jolt some life back into a once great area of game play.
There hasn't been an epic, notable, noteworthy anything out of empire pvp in a long time. Currently empire mercs are doing nothing of interest. The don't make the news (other than the occaisional high five over an officer fit mission boat).
Things I like - space ship explosions
Things I don't like - boring predictable meaningless pvp, sentries on ishtars, sentries on carriers, space magic that protects sov null assets from being taken by force |
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