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darklegionca Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2006.12.23 10:28:00 - [1] I know we have daily downtime to clean up files and other stuff, but on the wow servers they only do it once a week, unless i didnt read it right why couldnt we have a weekly downtime instead of daily? ------------------------------------ darklegionca - One name. One legend.
Lady Sabriel	Posted - 2006.12.23 10:29:00 - [2] two completely different games.
Grez Minmatar The Raven Warriors	Posted - 2006.12.23 10:29:00 - [3] They don't have near as many users on one server, nor do they have as many items per server as we do. --- Cache Clearer
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2006.12.23 10:32:00 - [4] I think the answers to this question could be several pages long, filled with technical details... but until a dev decides to explain it, im just going to go with the "because they are very different" reply. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Sales Merchant	Posted - 2006.12.23 10:36:00 - [5] Different games, different architectures, thus different downtime needs. No MMO is the same under the hood. _______ Irony (i+ro+ny) [ahy-ruh-nee] Originally by: Ginger Magician ...this was not a fight it was simply a pathetic gank. _______
Nate D Naughty Ambitious Temptatious Endeavours	Posted - 2006.12.23 10:40:00 - [6] Edited by: Nate D on 23/12/2006 10:40:24 I like this question... kinda... could care less about Wow... and if there wasn't a daily dt... I'd probably have died of an EVE binge already.... I think an awesome form of this question would be "Why does the cluster have to undergo downtime daily rather than weekly or monthly?" -NÖ --- Voice Comms are Coming ...SoonÖ [Click]
Cyn Scrapie Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2006.12.23 10:44:00 - [7] I remember that Ultima Online once had daily one hour downtimes as well. Then they changed the database architecture and reduced this to some 15 minutes daily. Given the number of chars and items on the Tranquility database, I consider the approx 45 minutes +/- 15 minutes CCP needs for the daily clean up as very efficient. Cyn Scrapie
Ishiko Tanaka	Posted - 2006.12.23 10:48:00 - [8] WoW: 1 DT / Week that lasts for almost the entire day. Eve: 1 DT / Day that lasts 45 minutes or so.. I'll take a daily DT over losing out an entire day.
Chronus26 Gallente Dark Blood Contracts	Posted - 2006.12.23 10:49:00 - [9] They also tend to apply small hotfixes and run database maintenance during DTs. -----
darklegionca Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2006.12.23 10:50:00 - [10] Edited by: darklegionca on 23/12/2006 10:50:53 Originally by: Ishiko Tanaka WoW: 1 DT / Week that lasts for almost the entire day. Eve: 1 DT / Day that lasts 45 minutes or so.. I'll take a daily DT over losing out an entire day. a whole day damn man thats sucky i would like to hear from a devs standpoint though ------------------------------------ darklegionca - One name. One legend.
Redart Pirates of Destruction Union	Posted - 2006.12.23 11:00:00 - [11] EVE is MUCH more complex than WoW. Nuff said. ^Click the Sig GorgeousGamers.com
Riho Red Wrath Exquisite Malevolance	Posted - 2006.12.23 11:13:00 - [12] Originally by: darklegionca I know we have daily downtime to clean up files and other stuff, but on the wow servers they only do it once a week, unless i didnt read it right why couldnt we have a weekly downtime instead of daily? does crappy wow servers hold 30000 ppl online in ONE server... think not.. so think about it... wow < EvE
Taaketa Frist The Praxis Initiative Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.23 11:42:00 - [13] Well lets put it this way. World of Warcraft has a server which can hold a max of 3000 people I believe. They have something ridiculus like 100+ servers (I can't remember the exact figure). And each server has been optimised and bulit with the one purpose in mind. To support 3000 people only. Eve is a cluster of servers which have on objective in mind. TO support as many people who want to connect, with the option to add in more support, making the Eve cluster in theroy unlimited in its capacitiy. Thus when clean up happens each server in the cluster needs to tidy. Now of course CCP could down each server one at a time and then run the cleanup but have you ever restarted your pc because that just seems to fix whatever problem you are having at the time? I know I have it works pretty darn well. -------------- Dang nabit
Ather Ialeas Amarr Karjala Inc.	Posted - 2006.12.23 11:45:00 - [14] Originally by: Riho Originally by: darklegionca I know we have daily downtime to clean up files and other stuff, but on the wow servers they only do it once a week, unless i didnt read it right why couldnt we have a weekly downtime instead of daily? does crappy wow servers hold 30000 ppl online in ONE server... think not.. so think about it... wow < EvE Neither does EVE cluster, gets very laggy when the user peak goes over 30k. ----- You are #27 in queue to see this signature.
Hohenheim OfLight Pegasus Mining and Securities R0ADKILL	Posted - 2006.12.23 11:48:00 - [15] eve is so much bigger, I have 35k of items in one station alone, i dont think most wow players have nay where neaer that much stuff. ---------------------------------------------- Gone but not forgotten
Lady Sabriel	Posted - 2006.12.23 11:48:00 - [16] Originally by: Ishiko Tanaka WoW: 1 DT / Week that lasts for almost the entire day. Eve: 1 DT / Day that lasts 45 minutes or so.. I'll take a daily DT over losing out an entire day. Wow downtime is around 6-8 hours. usally very early Wednesday mornings
DarkPanther Umbra Congregatio Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.12.23 11:56:00 - [17] Originally by: Taaketa Frist World of Warcraft has a server which can hold a max of 3000 people I believe. . Not even close lol
FireFoxx80 Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.12.23 12:04:00 - [18] You also have to rememeber that it's perceived downtime. WoW/UO/etc. all the sharded servers have downtime, but more often than not people have characters on other servers, so they just login to an alternate shard and feel they haven't lost out. What I do the rest of the time - Vote for a Jita bypass!
Miss Overlord Gallente Ferrum Pugnus New Eve Order	Posted - 2006.12.23 12:09:00 - [19] the problem with eve is start up 10 minutes now acquiring bulk data im running a 512k connection 0 since kali this issue others are reproting CCP needs fixing These posts represent my personal views and not those of my corp or alliance. These do not reflect offical alliance or corp views This is a disclaimer
Raven	Posted - 2006.12.23 12:16:00 - [20] The devs did try to change this a few years back. However after about 30 hours the server started to lag so badly that it had to be rebooted. After that, then the devs haven't even mentioned the idea in public.
Amaron Ghant Caldari Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2006.12.23 13:53:00 - [21] Originally by: darklegionca I know we have daily downtime to clean up files and other stuff, but on the wow servers they only do it once a week, unless i didnt read it right why couldnt we have a weekly downtime instead of daily? Cos this is EVE. An hours DT a day ensures that some of us manage to eat, shower and catch 40 winks. It¦s not just for the servers
Jokim	Posted - 2006.12.23 14:00:00 - [22] Originally by: Ishiko Tanaka WoW: 1 DT / Week that lasts for almost the entire day. Blatant lie WoW downtime is a few hours in the middle of the night for its respective region 1. its a few hours a week 2. its 3-5 am for the timezone its located in, so it doesnt interfer with gaming

Xorus Forum Moderator Interstellar Services Department	Posted - 2006.12.23 14:12:00 - [23] Originally by: Amaron Ghant Originally by: darklegionca I know we have daily downtime to clean up files and other stuff, but on the wow servers they only do it once a week, unless i didnt read it right why couldnt we have a weekly downtime instead of daily? Cos this is EVE. An hours DT a day ensures that some of us manage to eat, shower and catch 40 winks. It¦s not just for the servers I like thisanswer so lets roll with it :P But seriously from what i understand of PC maintenance the cluster has a huge ammount of use and data is written and read from it at a huge rate now as lots of people will know what happens to a normal PC with HDD fragmentation it slows the whole thing down, on a standard PC this takes a while to happen because of the amount of data written and read, on the TQ cluster this happens a lot faster and requires preventative measures to keep the server from falling apart, i doubt it will ever change and theres no real reason and as the guy i quoted mentioned its the only time we get to sleep :P ---

Saldun Zexu	Posted - 2006.12.23 14:15:00 - [24] what about DAoC? this game has zero DT.
Handapanda	Posted - 2006.12.23 14:24:00 - [25] Originally by: Riho Originally by: darklegionca I know we have daily downtime to clean up files and other stuff, but on the wow servers they only do it once a week, unless i didnt read it right why couldnt we have a weekly downtime instead of daily? does crappy wow servers hold 30000 ppl online in ONE server... think not.. so think about it... wow < EvE http://www.warcraftrealms.com/eu_realmstats.php?sort=Total&PHPSESSID=d2e21aa6679081619d3e3c8899f07c1d Think before you speak, and that is not even everyone that plays, probaly more on some servers, blizzard haven't given out official stats on the realms...

Xorus Forum Moderator Interstellar Services Department	Posted - 2006.12.23 14:26:00 - [26] Originally by: Handapanda Originally by: Riho Originally by: darklegionca I know we have daily downtime to clean up files and other stuff, but on the wow servers they only do it once a week, unless i didnt read it right why couldnt we have a weekly downtime instead of daily? does crappy wow servers hold 30000 ppl online in ONE server... think not.. so think about it... wow < EvE http://www.warcraftrealms.com/eu_realmstats.php?sort=Total&PHPSESSID=d2e21aa6679081619d3e3c8899f07c1d Think before you speak, and that is not even everyone that plays, probaly more on some servers, blizzard haven't given out official stats on the realms... TBH it looks more like a list of all accounts for each server as i don't see anything that says PCU or the such ---

Ozzie Asrail FATAL REVELATIONS	Posted - 2006.12.23 14:33:00 - [27] Originally by: Xorus Originally by: Handapanda Originally by: Riho Originally by: darklegionca I know we have daily downtime to clean up files and other stuff, but on the wow servers they only do it once a week, unless i didnt read it right why couldnt we have a weekly downtime instead of daily? does crappy wow servers hold 30000 ppl online in ONE server... think not.. so think about it... wow < EvE http://www.warcraftrealms.com/eu_realmstats.php?sort=Total&PHPSESSID=d2e21aa6679081619d3e3c8899f07c1d Think before you speak, and that is not even everyone that plays, probaly more on some servers, blizzard haven't given out official stats on the realms... TBH it looks more like a list of all accounts for each server as i don't see anything that says PCU or the such That is characters on the servers. Devide that by 3 and you'll get the rough number of accounts, then devide it by 3 again and you might get close to the numer of PCU -----
Viktor Fyretracker Caldari Worms Corp	Posted - 2006.12.23 14:37:00 - [28] WoW is down till about 12noon-1pm EST on average. so basicly their home market is still at work. people outside that market whine hey so do people in distant time zones whine about EVE resets. its funny people *** about a buggy game, then *** when the server comes down to clean up the bugs.
Dekiri Exanimo Inc	Posted - 2006.12.23 14:46:00 - [29] PCU in WoW is below 3000 per server. I am assuming this because WoW devs stated they would have less average on it then the EQ1 servers had back then wich was about 3 to 4k average per server(back then they had actual numbers per server on the login site). That is sooo different from what eve does that i don't think you can compare it at all. Also Eve has a LOT more items to take care of and the market transactions are also a LOT more complex. Add building items in Eve to it wich is also a LOT less complex in WoW. --------------------------------- Exanimo Inc. - Mercs for hire Join channel "CONTRACT EXAN" in game if you wish to hire Exanimo Inc. Or contact cptblood or kakanur
Jessickah Minmatar Sanguine Legion	Posted - 2006.12.23 14:51:00 - [30] Originally by: Handapanda http://www.warcraftrealms.com/eu_realmstats.php?sort=Total&PHPSESSID=d2e21aa6679081619d3e3c8899f07c1d Think before you speak, and that is not even everyone that plays, probaly more on some servers, blizzard haven't given out official stats on the realms... In WoW, players may have 8 characters per account per server. So 20,000 on one server is far from concurrent, thats like saying EVE has 300,000+ users. (100,000+ accounts *3 characters per account). EVE and WoW are two different server types, let alone game. Besides, having played both games in the past, I much prefer EVE Downtime, it panders to my insomniac needs - far too well infact. If I can't sleep, EVE. Ohnoes downtime -> coffee, toast, That 70s Show. More EVE. Kinda a problem in WoW if you can't sleep on the downtime night, have you ever seen what they put on TV in the middle of the night?
Nir The Doldrums	Posted - 2006.12.23 14:57:00 - [31] Originally by: Saldun Zexu what about DAoC? this game has zero DT. Yeah, I was just thinking the same thing.
Twin blade Minmatar The Caldari Confederation	Posted - 2006.12.23 15:08:00 - [32] Put it this way 30k+ on 1 massive sever vs around 3k max on a WOW sever. The ammout of items in eve alone is much higher. The ammout of systerm's in eve is like 5 time's what WOW has. The ammout of Npc's around eve could be around 10.000 time's higher. All that along with the player base is a massive drain on the sever. Over along time it eat's all the sever's memory and cpu and if left much longer than 24 hour's would most likey crash the whole sever. I belive the main problem is the memory leek that all sever's have with eve's massive size it effect's the sever more than the much smaller WOW sever that cna last longer due to a smaller leek. Or the hamster's need a rest. !
Sessho Seki	Posted - 2006.12.23 23:06:00 - [33] Originally by: Handapanda Originally by: Riho Originally by: darklegionca I know we have daily downtime to clean up files and other stuff, but on the wow servers they only do it once a week, unless i didnt read it right why couldnt we have a weekly downtime instead of daily? does crappy wow servers hold 30000 ppl online in ONE server... think not.. so think about it... wow < EvE http://www.warcraftrealms.com/eu_realmstats.php?sort=Total&PHPSESSID=d2e21aa6679081619d3e3c8899f07c1d Think before you speak, and that is not even everyone that plays, probaly more on some servers, blizzard haven't given out official stats on the realms... Physician, heal thy self… You will note that Blizzard’s largest population server (Kargath) has a CUMULATIVE population of 30,460 characters. However, that’s only counting the characters, simultaneous play is what is in discussion here, as the quote of Riho says “ppl online in ONE server”, that word “online” is the key factor. If we’re counting characters per-server, then WOW also looses, considering EVE is well over 100,000 characters strong on Tranquility, so nearly a power of 10 to what a WOW server can contain. Anyway, if you tried to log 30,000 people onto a WOW server, first it simply wouldn’t happen, the wait queues would be days long (oh wait, they already are). Pretending however that 30,000 people all got into any of the WOW servers, the system would just collapse, people whine about lag in EVE at high capacity, but at least the cluster can function at all, and no other online game comes close to what EVE is doing with such an immense population simultaneously online on one singular game world. So as you so eloquently put it, think before you speak.
Rustimon Polar Bear Industries	Posted - 2006.12.24 00:14:00 - [34] Dear god man, think of the hamsters!
Lygos Amarr ISS Navy Task Force Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.24 00:15:00 - [35] Edited by: Lygos on 24/12/2006 00:20:20 I think it has a lot to do with how many objects an account is allowed to retain. In EVE you can have billions of objects on the system if you wanted. Just don't try to stack them all at the same time. As for mud mechanics, I think the real technical challenge is expressed in how many users per zone, or in terms of gameplay, how many users recieving data explicitly about one another in a non-aggregated way. That particular limitation is severe, and small gains amount to a lot. Naturaly, developers have to expand competition beyond single zones. --- T2 Risk \| Corp Divisions
BurnHard	Posted - 2006.12.24 01:00:00 - [36] Well consider that DT has been with us (~1 hour) ever since day 1, I don't think it's so much to do with the number of items in the database. It's just a reasonable way of keeping on top of maintenance without having to drop the servers for days at a time every month or so.
Jaabaa Prime Dental Drilling Corporation Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.12.24 01:15:00 - [37] CCP "once upon a time" promised to reduce daily DT to a weekly one. But, TBH, I think the daily DT works better in multiple ways: 1) You know when the server is going to be down and can plan for it. 2) CCP can apply hot fixes to the server during the daily DT and not interrupt normal service. 3) They can load balance individual systems when alliances go to war. 4) We are forced to leave the EVE universe for at least 1 hour per day to attend to RL needs. 5) If there are bugs eating memory then it frees up both the servers and the clients at least once a day I know that several australian/pacific players once hoped not to have the EVE DT during their prime time, and if I remember rightly it was once brought up as an option by CCP to have the DT rotate, but I think that it messed with their release plan, especially with the server hot fixes. So, all things considered, I would rather have a daily DT with hot fixes that normally lasts less that 45 minutes that a weekly one where CCP are forced to get as much done as possible. Let's be honest here, we are spoilt considering the availability of the main EVE cluster, other games can only dream of CCP's uptime and their ability to react to ingame changes. We are the people that scream when CCP releases a major patch with a DT of 24 hours, we are spoilt indeed IMHO ..... -- Mini Skill Planner
TimtheTerror Caldari Crazy 88's O X I D E	Posted - 2006.12.24 01:55:00 - [38] I totally agree with Jaabaa. I prefer having a daily downtime for an hour, rather than a once per week DT for 12 hours or so ---
TimtheTerror Caldari Crazy 88's O X I D E	Posted - 2006.12.24 01:55:00 - [39] I totally agree with Jaabaa. I prefer having a daily downtime for an hour, rather than a once per week DT for 12 hours or so ---
Pan Crastus	Posted - 2006.12.24 01:57:00 - [40] Edited by: Pan Crastus on 24/12/2006 01:57:40 Why do people keep trying to claim that EVE has 30.000 people on a single server? It doesn't, a cluster isn't a server, it's lot of servers. EVE allows more interaction between servers than WoW (even WoW has shared PVP battlegrounds now, where people from different servers can fight each other - and they could easily facilitate players jumping between servers if they thought it wouldn't destroy the gameplay), but that's about it. From the published numbers of servers CCP is using, we can safely assume that EVE has much fewer players per server on average than WoW (and yes, I know that a "server" in WoW may be a cluster too, but I didn't come up with this term in this context). The price for the interaction between servers in EVE is, as you can all see, the horrible lag we sometimes get, jump queues and so on. While WoW is working towards more communication between servers, CCP is trying to remove it. They removed the global escrow list for example, they removed the need forEVE Online \| EVE Insider \| Forums
Pan Crastus	Posted - 2006.12.24 01:57:00 - [41] Edited by: Pan Crastus on 24/12/2006 01:57:40 Why do people keep trying to claim that EVE has 30.000 people on a single server? It doesn't, a cluster isn't a server, it's lot of servers. EVE allows more interaction between servers than WoW (even WoW has shared PVP battlegrounds now, where people from different servers can fight each other - and they could easily facilitate players jumping between servers if they thought it wouldn't destroy the gameplay), but that's about it. From the published numbers of servers CCP is using, we can safely assume that EVE has much fewer players per server on average than WoW (and yes, I know that a "server" in WoW may be a cluster too, but I didn't come up with this term in this context). The price for the interaction between servers in EVE is, as you can all see, the horrible lag we sometimes get, jump queues and so on. While WoW is working towards more communication between servers, CCP is trying to remove it. They removed the global escrow list for example, they removed the need for instas.
Pan Crastus	Posted - 2006.12.24 02:07:00 - [42] Originally by: Hohenheim OfLight eve is so much bigger, I have 35k of items in one station alone, i dont think most wow players have nay where neaer that much stuff. EVE encourages cluttered inventories: if you want to be able to produce 200 different items, you have to have the blueprints somewhere. In WoW you learn the recipes, spells etc. You also have a hard limit for your inventory and "bank account" (= more storage), so you don't keep useless stuff. As for complexity - perhaps EVE's design leads to more different items on the server, in space etc., but at the same time the perceived richness of content is much greater in WoW (more different "interesting" items, more quests, NPCs etc.). It's impressive to have hundreds of different NPC ships per faction, but what's the point if they use something like 20 different models and apart from their hp/dps make no real difference in missions? I don't even notice anymore if an NPC in a mission is a Corelatis or Serpentis and whether it has a Thorax or a Vexor hull if it is a cruiser. Focus on quantity doesn't make the game more interesting. :-/
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.24 02:14:00 - [43] Let me get this straight- EVE has 1 hour DT a day, mostly, which is 7 hours a week. WoW has 12 hours DT all on one day, once a week. So thats 7 hours lost play-time a week vs. 12 hours lost play-time a week. Go CCP! And as everyone says, a 25k+ player server (concurrent) is a whole differnt beast to the 3k player servers WoW users. Their needs are entirely different. -----------------------------------------------
Asimov Andies Gallente Red Blade Industries	Posted - 2006.12.24 02:35:00 - [44] Let's start with terminology here. To start with both games have virtual servers which are actually clusters. That is several servers hooked up together. EvE has one massive cluster, WoW has several smaller clusters. System and gameplay architecture demand thos setups. Now, that means that you not only have the player cappacity that is making it so you have to have a down time to clean up, but with the larger cluster you also have more servers that need to be cleaned up. It is far easier to keep on top of it then do it all at once. Take laundry for example, takes a few minute to do it a few times a week, an hour to do it once a week. nuff said on that, on to other reasons. In EVE certain things are accomplished only after down time like outpost construction. I could not imagine a weekly down time soley because of that reason to start with. Feel free to chew my response. -=##=- Why are they shooting at us Captain?
darklegionca Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2006.12.24 16:21:00 - [45] i would still like a dev to reply to this thread even though i have a fealing that everyone has said the exact same thing as they would say allready ------------------------------------ darklegionca - One name. One legend.
Kotori Gallente Sacred Templars DeStInY.	Posted - 2006.12.24 16:42:00 - [46] from what i remember of what an old friend told me, one of the reasons tehere is a daily downtime, is that the amount of data transfered on the servers is collosal. And over time, this data becomes more and more problematic, as more and more of it is lost. Multiple gigs of data is lost daily, and the servers need to be maintained in order to keep data loss as minimal as possible... But i was told years ago, so i cant rember the exact limbo ..........
Crul'shorukh	Posted - 2006.12.24 17:06:00 - [47] Frankly, I'm surprised at the amount of misinformation in this thread. I have the math in another thread, but its lost in the abyss, so this is it again. WoW has about 1.5 million players on the North American server (Includes Canada/and Australia). For these, they have 186 servers. This yeilds about 8241 accounts per server. Now also realize, each "server" is actually 2 "world servers" accompanied by any number of smaller instance servers. Furthermore, if you take the number of people you have in jita on primetime, and put that many in a zone in wow, the entire server dies; to the point where server events in the past have required a GM to be there to remove people. Hopefully, you can now see why WoW is able to do maintance once a week... It's servers are rarely under very much pressure, all Dungeon and pvp is done off of the main server, and of course, the game is just so... different.
Z'epp	Posted - 2006.12.24 18:31:00 - [48] Its because of the hamster rotation system ccp have inplace. They originally tried to have a singe group of hamsters that ran all day and night except the 1 hr rest they were given which we come to know as downtime, as the pcu grew and grew these hamsters couldnt cope so they now have 2 groups of hamsters running 'a day on, day off' system and during downtime is when they swop over. With WOW they use durecell bunnies to power them, they may go on and on and on but are nowhere near as powerfull as a group of real hamsters.
Kerashy Aeden Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2006.12.24 18:55:00 - [49] honestly, have played wow for a year on a populated server and we were around 6k logged in on top (3k per side). tho blizzard adjust cluster to server charge i.e. some only accept 3k peeps. That said imo wow servers require lots cpu power cause of gameplay. on other hand Eve must have a realy hudge moving database. Calcul power (CPU) doesn't require much besides good hardware. Databases require sorting, index rebuild and other specific stuff so EVE must require more frequent downtime. PS : EVE > wow Quote: Where is my mind ?

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