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Hi ryuu Lightspeed Enterprises Fidelas Constans 0	Posted - 2015.10.06 04:13:03 - [1] - Quote A friend and I were talking and came up with the Idea of a "loan contract" for large amounts of isk to be barrowed from rich people or alliances. Obviously it would have to have some way of getting your isk back from the borrower of items in the amount of the loan. It would be nice to be able to have your alliance fund your next Carrier or Titan. Thoughts would be a loan in x amount at a interest rate of x monthly. this both earns the lender money and gives people with large amounts of isk some way to make passive income. Just a thought what do y'all think?
Lugh Crow-Slave 1245	Posted - 2015.10.06 04:49:31 - [2] - Quote Game mechanics do not need to be added or changed if something is already doable in game Fuel block colors? Missiles for Caldari T3? Corp Stasis
Iain Cariaba 1863	Posted - 2015.10.06 04:50:26 - [3] - Quote Nothing stopping you from doing this already, doesn't need a coded system to operate. EvE is hard. It's harder if you're stupid. I couldn't have said it better. Hello, Mr Carebear. Would you like some cheese with that whine?
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 3468	Posted - 2015.10.06 05:09:29 - [4] - Quote Hi ryuu wrote: A friend and I were talking and came up with the Idea of a "loan contract" for large amounts of isk to be barrowed from rich people or alliances. Obviously it would have to have some way of getting your isk back from the borrower of items in the amount of the loan. It would be nice to be able to have your alliance fund your next Carrier or Titan. Thoughts would be a loan in x amount at a interest rate of x monthly. this both earns the lender money and gives people with large amounts of isk some way to make passive income. Just a thought what do y'all think? It's called collateral and I read an interesting idea on this where contracts are modified to allow for negative ISK amounts and negative item amounts. So for example if I had an item worth 1 billion and want that ISK and don't want to sell it, I'd put up a contract for say -1 billion, and -1 of the item in question, and with a payment of say 50 million for a month (or whatever the time period is). So in this case, if I accept the contract I get the 1 billion ISK. Sitting out there is an item worth 1 billion. If at the end of the 30 days, or however long, I don't "complete" the contract you get the item. If I do complete the contract you'll get back your 1 billion plus the 50 million and I get back my item. Now Eve would have a type of banking law enforced by the only entity in the game that can enforce such laws...CCP. This guy came up with the idea. One of the things needed for banking is a government that can enforce the laws. No government/laws no banking. This is why all "banks" in Eve have turned out to be nothing more than complete scams. The closest thing we have to banks are people like Chribba who build up a reputation and then rely on that reputation to allow for some limited purpose banking. Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence So Local Chat vanished, now what?
ShahFluffers Ice Fire Warriors Snuffed Out 8756	Posted - 2015.10.06 05:14:19 - [5] - Quote We used to have loan contracts in the game. They were almost exclusively used to scam people. (hint: making loans doesn't really work when there are a multitude of ways to launder money through multiple characters and "accidents"... and collateral doesn't work because people can just sell it and get the money they need) And we already have "Loan Sharks" in the game. They are called "other players." They (or "enforcers" they hire) blow you up repeatedly if you don't pay them back. How did you Veterans start? The Skillpoint System and You
Lugh Crow-Slave 1246	Posted - 2015.10.06 05:14:47 - [6] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Now Eve would have a type of banking law enforced by the only entity in the game that can enforce such laws...CCP. This guy came up with the idea. One of the things needed for banking is a government that can enforce the laws. No government/laws no banking. This is why all "banks" in Eve have turned out to be nothing more than complete scams. The closest thing we have to banks are people like Chribba who build up a reputation and then rely on that reputation to allow for some limited purpose banking. But this is already done in eve and enforced by players All this would do is lower the need for trust and for a game built on the idea of player interaction and trust this idea has no place Fuel block colors? Missiles for Caldari T3? Corp Stasis
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 3468	Posted - 2015.10.06 05:16:18 - [7] - Quote Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: Game mechanics do not need to be added or changed if something is already doable in game Iain Cariaba wrote: Nothing stopping you from doing this already, doesn't need a coded system to operate. That is just it, it is not doable in game except in special cases like Chribba and others who have spent years building up a reputation for honesty. Banks need a central government to enforce the laws, and governments need banks as a source of credit/money that they might not be other wise able to raise. For example, during a time of war governments will often raise money not via taxes, but via bonds. The only real government in game is CCP. However, CCP does not need to borrow ISK. And as such, CCP does not need to create an in game banking system. So, there is no in game banking system and likely never will be. For a reason why look at the last post about the last bank in Eve...they always end up being scams. Some even involving RMT. Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence So Local Chat vanished, now what?
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 3468	Posted - 2015.10.06 05:18:46 - [8] - Quote Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Now Eve would have a type of banking law enforced by the only entity in the game that can enforce such laws...CCP. This guy came up with the idea. One of the things needed for banking is a government that can enforce the laws. No government/laws no banking. This is why all "banks" in Eve have turned out to be nothing more than complete scams. The closest thing we have to banks are people like Chribba who build up a reputation and then rely on that reputation to allow for some limited purpose banking. But this is already done in eve and enforced by players All this would do is lower the need for trust and for a game built on the idea of player interaction and trust this idea has no place Banks do not work off of trust. They exist because there are laws where if you try to take their **, guys with guns, body armor, and the like will show up and throw you in a hole for a period of time if necessary or at the very least take your **. So you are quite simply wrong. We cannot have a banking system in game. Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence So Local Chat vanished, now what?
Lugh Crow-Slave 1246	Posted - 2015.10.06 05:31:44 - [9] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Now Eve would have a type of banking law enforced by the only entity in the game that can enforce such laws...CCP. This guy came up with the idea. One of the things needed for banking is a government that can enforce the laws. No government/laws no banking. This is why all "banks" in Eve have turned out to be nothing more than complete scams. The closest thing we have to banks are people like Chribba who build up a reputation and then rely on that reputation to allow for some limited purpose banking. But this is already done in eve and enforced by players All this would do is lower the need for trust and for a game built on the idea of player interaction and trust this idea has no place Banks do not work off of trust. They exist because there are laws where if you try to take their **, guys with guns, body armor, and the like will show up and throw you in a hole for a period of time if necessary or at the very least take your **. So you are quite simply wrong. We cannot have a banking system in game. But we do have people who do just this in game There are people who will give loans Hell even I have given a few And even in the real world banks still run off trust why do you think people with a low credit score have hard times getting loans Fuel block colors? Missiles for Caldari T3? Corp Stasis
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 3468	Posted - 2015.10.06 05:34:45 - [10] - Quote Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Now Eve would have a type of banking law enforced by the only entity in the game that can enforce such laws...CCP. This guy came up with the idea. One of the things needed for banking is a government that can enforce the laws. No government/laws no banking. This is why all "banks" in Eve have turned out to be nothing more than complete scams. The closest thing we have to banks are people like Chribba who build up a reputation and then rely on that reputation to allow for some limited purpose banking. But this is already done in eve and enforced by players All this would do is lower the need for trust and for a game built on the idea of player interaction and trust this idea has no place Banks do not work off of trust. They exist because there are laws where if you try to take their **, guys with guns, body armor, and the like will show up and throw you in a hole for a period of time if necessary or at the very least take your **. So you are quite simply wrong. We cannot have a banking system in game. But we do have people who do just this in game There are people who will give loans Hell even I have given a few And even in the real world banks still run off trust why do you think people with a low credit score have hard times getting loans Loans in game currently work off of either reputation or the reputation of others. So, no there is not something like this in game. As for credit scores, grow up, those are not used to measure trust, but risk. Higher risk translates into higher interest rates knowing that with the legal system the bank can come and confiscate whatever it is you used to purchase with the loan. Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence So Local Chat vanished, now what?
Lugh Crow-Slave 1246	Posted - 2015.10.06 05:42:44 - [11] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Now Eve would have a type of banking law enforced by the only entity in the game that can enforce such laws...CCP. This guy came up with the idea. One of the things needed for banking is a government that can enforce the laws. No government/laws no banking. This is why all "banks" in Eve have turned out to be nothing more than complete scams. The closest thing we have to banks are people like Chribba who build up a reputation and then rely on that reputation to allow for some limited purpose banking. But this is already done in eve and enforced by players All this would do is lower the need for trust and for a game built on the idea of player interaction and trust this idea has no place Banks do not work off of trust. They exist because there are laws where if you try to take their **, guys with guns, body armor, and the like will show up and throw you in a hole for a period of time if necessary or at the very least take your **. So you are quite simply wrong. We cannot have a banking system in game. But we do have people who do just this in game There are people who will give loans Hell even I have given a few And even in the real world banks still run off trust why do you think people with a low credit score have hard times getting loans Loans in game currently work off of either reputation or the reputation of others. So, no there is not something like this in game. As for credit scores, grow up, those are not used to measure trust, but risk. Higher risk translates into higher interest rates knowing that with the legal system the bank can come and confiscate whatever it is you used to purchase with the loan. Yes you are higher risk because you can not be as trusted and it's not only higher rates they will flat out deny you. And there are people who will not use banks as they do not trust them. Also this is not the real world this is Eve Npcs and ccp should never do what players already can and since people are already doing this there is no need for CCP (It's a pan to delete quotes on mobile so everyone forgive me for not) Fuel block colors? Missiles for Caldari T3? Corp Stasis
Donnachadh United Allegiance of Undesirables 568	Posted - 2015.10.06 14:17:12 - [12] - Quote It occurs to me that if we had a viable bounties system then we could have a limited form of loan contract written into the game. As a very rough concept you could loan ISK to another player via a Concord contract. If the contract was honored and payments made according to the contract them it would be removed. If not then Concord would send out notifications and the person who loaned the money could then choose how much bounty to place. There are myriad details to work out with flags, kill rights and many others but this is the rough concept. Unfortunately with the current state of the bounties system this would not be possible. And given the resistance to changes in the current bounties system I wonder if the player base as a whole would even consider it?
ShahFluffers Ice Fire Warriors Snuffed Out 8759	Posted - 2015.10.06 15:30:54 - [13] - Quote Quote: Unfortunately with the current state of the bounties system this would not be possible. And given the resistance to changes in the current bounties system I wonder if the player base as a whole would even consider it? The current state of bounties exists because alt characters and friends are a thing in this game. The moment you make it profitable to have an alt/friend blow you up to collect a bounty (while you meanwhile collect insurance from your now-dead ship), people will do just that and render the system pointless (this is what happened in the previous version of player bounties) This is why payouts are stuck at ~20% of hull value right now. This is also why loan contracts don't work very well in a video game. Players can simply roll new characters or find ways to fence the money in a way where they have plausible deniability (hint; ganking a character hauling a whole bunch of stuff bought with loans and then fire-selling it back to the unsuspecting loan-maker... how can anyone tell that the hauler was a patsy for the gankers?) How did you Veterans start? The Skillpoint System and You
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 3468	Posted - 2015.10.06 16:03:23 - [14] - Quote Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: Yes you are higher risk because you can not be as trusted and it's not only higher rates they will flat out deny you. And there are people who will not use banks as they do not trust them. Also this is not the real world this is Eve Npcs and ccp should never do what players already can and since people are already doing this there is no need for CCP (It's a pan to delete quotes on mobile so everyone forgive me for not) No, credit and trust maybe somewhat correlated, but they are not the same thing. And yes, we have loans in game. But I have to say it is a pain in the butt. Many people are suspicious of scams. You either have to go through a third party or work long and hard to build a reputation yourself. And there isn't even a way to calculate a credit score in the game FFS. The point remains, lending in the game is stunted and hamstrung. Having CCP implement a method of obtaining loans with collateral will inject more liquidity into the game economy and increase economic activity. There would still be risk involved (what if the price of the collateral declines for example), but now instead of having to rely on a third party or work at building a reputation, people could obtain ISK more quickly and easily to engage in economically productive activities. As for the fact that players are doing it to some extent so CCP should not implement this...well fine. Get rid of the contracting system entirely and rely on people like Chribba to do all contracting. It should be done by players not by CCP. Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence So Local Chat vanished, now what?
ShahFluffers Ice Fire Warriors Snuffed Out 8760	Posted - 2015.10.06 19:11:58 - [15] - Quote Quote: Having CCP implement a method of obtaining loans with collateral will inject more liquidity into the game economy and increase economic activity. No, it won't. Collateral was a feature in the old "Loan Contracts." No one put up collateral because they realized that... - you are not goin to get a loan worth more than the collateral (otherwise someone runs off with the more valuable end) - why put up collateral you are going to pay interest towards instead of selling your stuff outright and using the money to do what you want? It is mot like there are any any truly "unique" items in the game that you can buy elsewhere. - alt and friends are still a problem. You can only track so much, so far before things get really murky and you run the risk of penalizing innocents who have nothing to do with a scam or fraud. How did you Veterans start? The Skillpoint System and You
Ellendras Silver CrashCat Corporation 205	Posted - 2015.10.06 19:36:14 - [16] - Quote Hi ryuu wrote: A friend and I were talking and came up with the Idea of a "loan contract" for large amounts of isk to be barrowed from rich people or alliances. Obviously it would have to have some way of getting your isk back from the borrower of items in the amount of the loan. It would be nice to be able to have your alliance fund your next Carrier or Titan. Thoughts would be a loan in x amount at a interest rate of x monthly. this both earns the lender money and gives people with large amounts of isk some way to make passive income. Just a thought what do y'all think? i second this, would be awesome make alt loan money from as much people as you want transfer funds to main delete char make new alt and do it again [u]Carpe noctem[/u]
Zan Shiro Alternative Enterprises 791	Posted - 2015.10.06 22:36:42 - [17] - Quote ShahFluffers wrote: Quote: Having CCP implement a method of obtaining loans with collateral will inject more liquidity into the game economy and increase economic activity. No, it won't. Collateral was a feature in the old "Loan Contracts." No one put up collateral because they realized that... - you are not goin to get a loan worth more than the collateral (otherwise someone runs off with the more valuable end) - why put up collateral you are going to pay interest towards instead of selling your stuff outright and using the money to do what you want? It is mot like there are any any truly "unique" items in the game that you can buy elsewhere. - alt and friends are still a problem. You can only track so much, so far before things get really murky and you run the risk of penalizing innocents who have nothing to do with a scam or fraud. This really. CCP making it official doesn't make it any better. Tied to this idea at least seen before is CCP in some way would garnish wages as it were if not making payments. Lots of ways to get around this. Example: this char is my indy char. KInd of an alt but not (main and "alt" subjective at times for me) . He has made billions of isk never, ever, having personal isk. Jobs installed at station with office means money comes from corp wallet. Alt trader/hauler buys raw materials and drops off in corp hangar. Sells end products. In short....this char needs no personal isk and has had none for years really. Send the bill collectors, they'd get nothing. So If need the isk I am better off selling my stuff. I sell off my say kronos for 1.5 billion isk full fit I keep all of it. Its not 1.2 billion after interest deductions. Give me a system where I put 3 billion in collateral for a say 9 billion isk loan.....I am up 6 billion on the deal when (not if) I don't pay back. Which is why ccp won't do this. Its now tied heavily to scamming. It would make trade window and margin trade scam seem like child's play really.
Donnachadh United Allegiance of Undesirables 569	Posted - 2015.10.07 03:13:50 - [18] - Quote ShahFluffers wrote: The current state of bounties exists because alt characters and friends are a thing in this game. The moment you make it profitable to have an alt/friend blow you up to collect a bounty (while you meanwhile collect insurance from your now-dead ship), people will do just that and render the system pointless (this is what happened in the previous version of player bounties) This is why payouts are stuck at ~20% of hull value right now. I said it was a rough concept besides I fail to see how it can be abused to make ISK. You loan and the ISK moves from your wallet to the wallet of your alt / friend or a character that you do not control let's use me as an example. At this point no ISK is created from any source it has simply moved from one location to another. You alt / friend / me chooses not to pay you back, still no ISK created they simply refuse to repay you and this gives you the option to place a bounty. So you decide that the scum has to die for not repaying the loan so YOU pay out even more ISK from your wallet and give it to Concord for the bounty, again no ISK is created it is only transferred. When the deed is done and the scum (alt / friend / me) is dead then Concord pays the bounty hunter. Again no ISK is created it has just moved from your wallet to the bounty hunter via Concord. So who makes money? The character that has YOUR ISK has more but it was not created it was moved from your wallet. The bounty hunter makes ISK, but again it was not created out of nothing it was simply moved from your wallet to theirs via Concord. So this magical use it to get RICH scheme comes down to the Insurance payouts if there are any and that is easily dealt with. They were a criminal with a bounty and so insurance will not pay out because ship was lost as a result of criminal activity. So tell me how this system can be abused to make ISK?
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 3470	Posted - 2015.10.07 03:28:14 - [19] - Quote ShahFluffers wrote: Quote: Having CCP implement a method of obtaining loans with collateral will inject more liquidity into the game economy and increase economic activity. No, it won't. Collateral was a feature in the old "Loan Contracts." No one put up collateral because they realized that... - you are not goin to get a loan worth more than the collateral (otherwise someone runs off with the more valuable end) - why put up collateral you are going to pay interest towards instead of selling your stuff outright and using the money to do what you want? It is not like there are any any truly "unique" items in the game that you can't buy elsewhere. - alt and friends are still a problem. You can only track so much, so far before things get really murky and you run the risk of penalizing innocents who have nothing to do with a scam or fraud. People already put up collateral for loans, so I find this completely unpersuasive. Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence So Local Chat vanished, now what?
Obadja State War Academy Caldari State 1	Posted - 2015.10.08 11:22:42 - [20] - Quote you could use gametime as collateral. Lets Say I give you 1B, you have to pay me back in 10 tranches, weekly interval, collateral is 30Days: every week you are paying, you receive 3 days back, if you dont pay or delete the character, playtime is mine. If I set the collateral lower than the amount of plex you could buy with it, its my fault
Tiddle Jr Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic 571	Posted - 2015.10.09 10:35:15 - [21] - Quote We have 3rd party for that. Also please show me the item which price wouldn't change withi 30 days. Plus, it's easy to manipulate on market in a certain categories.
Varyah I am Forever of the Stars 12	Posted - 2015.10.09 13:05:04 - [22] - Quote Basically you want players with lots of ISK to be able to gain more ISK without any risk whatsoever. Why exactly do you play this game?
Donnachadh United Allegiance of Undesirables 575	Posted - 2015.10.10 13:32:57 - [23] - Quote Varyah wrote: Basically you want players with lots of ISK to be able to gain more ISK without any risk whatsoever. Why exactly do you play this game? That is an interesting question. Considering that the answers to many of the things posted around here is all about maxing your ISK/LP per hour I would venture a guess that ISK is the main reason a lot of people play this game. Players with lots of ISK use it to make even more ISK in the game as now how and why would this loans idea be any different?

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