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Fix for freighter bumping: Make webs give suspect flag not criminal

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Starcruiser Stasarik Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic 17	Posted - 2015.10.09 05:30:46 - [1] - Quote Bumping a freighter is risk-free, and even if you have a webber, you can't always save yourself from a good bumper. If webs gave suspect flags instead of criminal flags, you web the bumper (who is warp disrupting you without getting Concord on their hull) and you get a suspect flag instead of instant death. This could be used by gankers too by webbing an autopiloted ship down to nothing with a ship of their own to give the gank fleets a bit more time to organize or the bumper a chance to get into a better position.
Lugh Crow-Slave 1268	Posted - 2015.10.09 05:42:30 - [2] - Quote Quote: you can't always save yourself from a good bumper some one being good at something is not a reason for you to change game mechanics Fuel block colors? Missiles for Caldari T3? Corp Stasis
Starcruiser Stasarik Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic 17	Posted - 2015.10.09 05:59:46 - [3] - Quote Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: Quote: you can't always save yourself from a good bumper some one being good at something is not a reason for you to change game mechanics Don't get hung up on a single words. It's a mechanic that allows a perma-jam without the normal punishments of a perma-jam in highsec and it doesn't have a whole lot of ways to really counter it, especially once the bumping has begun, without throwing a ship of your own at Concord's unmercy. Making webs give suspect flags instead of criminal flags would be a reasonable counter that would give active and attentive players more options while being something that gankers and other players can use for their own means, too. It also isn't the usual "make ships unbumpable" or "give collision damage" that people always seem to come up with, and it's something that's active instead of passive.
Madd Adda 129	Posted - 2015.10.09 06:23:19 - [4] - Quote people are going to just say it's an intended game mechanic. Carebear extraordinaire
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 2134	Posted - 2015.10.09 06:49:21 - [5] - Quote Would be worth it to scan down speed tankers and web them tbh lol
Black Pedro Yammerschooner 1756	Posted - 2015.10.09 06:57:28 - [6] - Quote Starcruiser Stasarik wrote: Bumping a freighter is risk-free, and even if you have a webber, you can't always save yourself from a good bumper. If webs gave suspect flags instead of criminal flags, you web the bumper (who is warp disrupting you without getting Concord on their hull) and you get a suspect flag instead of instant death. This could be used by gankers too by webbing an autopiloted ship down to nothing with a ship of their own to give the gank fleets a bit more time to organize or the bumper a chance to get into a better position. That would be a very powerful tool to annoy highsec residents in general. Miners, mission runners and all sorts of others could be harassed or ransomed by someone following them around and not letting them complete their objectives. It might actually even partially resurrect the late ninja salvaging profession. In other words, it will not happen. Bumpers are at the exact same risk as anyone else in the game. If you want them exploded, just explode them. That said, you will get your escape device in the winter. These new T2 destroyers will be able to MJD your bumped freighter to safety with just a single click of a button. You will no longer to be able to (falsely) claim that there is nothing you can do and hopefully these weekly threads on how to "fix" bumping will dry up.
Nors Phlebas Sabelhpsron The Red Circle Inc. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork 97	Posted - 2015.10.09 06:58:08 - [7] - Quote No; because as afkalt points out people will troll ships speed tanking sites by webbing them and getting them killed by rats. CONCORDless tackle is a problem to be sure; but webbing freighters into warp works unless you **** it up anyway, so meh. EDIT: I will be astounded if the new T2 dessies can MJD capital ships like freighters.
Nyalnara AdAstra. Beach Club 146	Posted - 2015.10.09 06:59:06 - [8] - Quote Starcruiser Stasarik wrote: Bumping a freighter is risk-free, and even if you have a webber, you can't always save yourself from a good bumper. If webs gave suspect flags instead of criminal flags, you web the bumper (who is warp disrupting you without getting Concord on their hull) and you get a suspect flag instead of instant death. This could be used by gankers too by webbing an autopiloted ship down to nothing with a ship of their own to give the gank fleets a bit more time to organize or the bumper a chance to get into a better position. So web give suspect? I'm fine with it, as long as it's all the ewar doing so. Because i want to point everything everywhere. (That was sarcasm, for people not recognizing it.) Black Pedro wrote: That said, you will get your escape device in the winter. These new T2 destroyers will be able to MJD your bumped freighter to safety with just a single click of a button. You will no longer to be able to (falsely) claim that there is nothing you can do and hopefully these weekly threads on how to "fix" bumping will dry up. They'll keep on whining, because new destro will be too long to train, too hard to use, AOE being too large thus taking the bumper with them, or something. Also, bumper will most likely be replaced with MJDing destro since that will throw the freigter 80km past the gate (right next to the prepositioned Taloses), in a crappy alignment which will require to turn all the way to warp somewhere. In case of ponies, keep calm and start running. French half-noob. Founder of [DEUPP]Dark Evil Undead Ponies Productions.
Sitting Bull Lakota Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic 11	Posted - 2015.10.09 07:15:51 - [9] - Quote I support this idea and all of the gameplay that would emerge from its implementation.
Black Pedro Yammerschooner 1756	Posted - 2015.10.09 07:21:20 - [10] - Quote Nors Phlebas Sabelhpsron wrote: EDIT: I will be astounded if the new T2 dessies can MJD capital ships like freighters. I would be shocked if they don't. I can see no other reason CCP is adding such a ship to the game other than to rescue bumped freighters. But we will see in time. Maybe some more details will emerge in Vegas.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 2135	Posted - 2015.10.09 08:24:30 - [11] - Quote Black Pedro wrote: I can see no other reason CCP is adding such a ship to the game other than to rescue bumped freighters. Because you need to consider what it'll do to a spidered logi blob. If it affects all ships in radius it'll be a shakeup in the meta the likes of which I've never seen. This could destroy anchoring as we know it, melodramatic perhaps, but remember they have stated they want to eliminate that sort of behaviour - stating orbit/KAR as targets but acknowledging the impracticality of that....this ship, if it can punt hostiles, achieves that in freakin' spades. This has the potential to make phoebe look like the BC warp speed increase...
Mag's the united 20406	Posted - 2015.10.09 09:18:37 - [12] - Quote "*Just one more nerf and it will be balanced." Destination SkillQueue:-* It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Starcruiser Stasarik Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic 18	Posted - 2015.10.09 09:26:02 - [13] - Quote Mag's wrote: "*Just one more nerf and it will be balanced.*" I'm guessing you've never done any actual balancing of anything complex. Small iterative changes done over periods of time are the best way to achieve an actual balance, while trying to do single massive changes usually leave things in worse shape than before. "Balance" in a game like Eve isn't like a hardened blacksmith forging a sword with heavy-handed hits. It's like a retired carpenter whittling a statue on his front porch making a large number of small cuts. "One more change" eventually WILL reach the balance point, so long as the changes are done in small steps over time to see what the outcomes are. Also, making webs give suspect instead of criminal flags isn't so much a nerf as it is an open door for a lot of other potential content.
RoCkEt X Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion 149	Posted - 2015.10.09 11:14:30 - [14] - Quote Just invite your webbing alt to a duel using the freighter pilot and stop being a whining moron. That's what everyone else does. Oh, and btw. use a cruor, takes almost no time to train and has dank web range.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 2137	Posted - 2015.10.09 11:22:00 - [15] - Quote RoCkEt X wrote: Just invite your webbing alt to a duel using the freighter pilot and stop being a whining moron. That's what everyone else does. Oh, and btw. use a cruor, takes almost no time to train and has dank web range. You're missing his point (although that was my reaction to reading the title to be fair). He wants to web the bumping machs.
Serendipity Lost Repo Industries 1458	Posted - 2015.10.09 12:02:12 - [16] - Quote Mag's wrote: "*Just one more nerf and it will be balanced.*" I think you're being too sensitive again. I think the content generation gains from making webs suspect only would be massive. Don't see 'anti freighter ganking' and walk away. Take a step back and look at ALL the things this would do. Honestly if I'm obelisk bowling with a mach - what's going to be able to web me for more than a few seconds before it becomes space dust? Just set a nado alt a 80km off the gate and wonk that too. If it's a larger webbing ship, something with some moxy that can hold a mach down, then you have content. If you have the presence of mind to look beyond just freighter / mach webbing - OMG. The uses for this new feature are so vast I'm a bit dizzy. I think it would be a great trade to allow a few frieghters to get away via this to get the vast amount of content options it would open up. The idea removes a red card and replaces it with a yellow card.... and you're calling it a nerf? That's just crazy math your doing. If anything I would accuse the OP of being a Baltec1 alt (I'd say once a year he's actually as clever as his pubbies think he is). This idea is content genious and may be the kind of thing HS needs to get headed back in the right direction.
elitatwo Eve Minions The-Company 878	Posted - 2015.10.09 12:15:54 - [17] - Quote But you can counter bump machariels with the USS Enterprise, no wait the Barghest. Tired of low and nullsec? Join Eve Minions and experience the beauty of wormholes!
Donnachadh United Allegiance of Undesirables 575	Posted - 2015.10.09 14:55:27 - [18] - Quote Black Pedro wrote: That said, you will get your escape device in the winter. These new T2 destroyers will be able to MJD your bumped freighter to safety with just a single click of a button. You will no longer to be able to (falsely) claim that there is nothing you can do and hopefully these weekly threads on how to "fix" bumping will dry up. Probably to be replaced by the cries from the gankers about how unfair it is. Personally I can't wait to see what happens. If we take for granted that bumping the T2 dessie will not interfere with it's ability to use the MJD, and we take for granted that they will be able to jump a freighter with them this would take us into a new territory. MJD with max spool up reductions based on skills and this will increasing the difficulty of ganking someone by a significant amount. And given a fleet comprised of a pair of T2 dessies trying to MJD the same freighter and you just might reach that elusive 100% safety from ganking. One thing is for sure this one is going to be fun to watch as it unfolds.
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 2801	Posted - 2015.10.09 15:35:14 - [19] - Quote i doubt you'll get this. The ability to troll would be hilarious. As for the new dessie using MJD's on freighters, i hope its not that easy. One escort pressing one button to get a bumped freighter out of a gank? And if i can help a freighter MJD, does that mean i can MJD someone whos in a mission? or trying to mine? I was hoping for something that was AoE and therefore not allowed in hi-sec. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Iain Cariaba 1878	Posted - 2015.10.09 16:49:19 - [20] - Quote afkalt wrote: RoCkEt X wrote: Just invite your webbing alt to a duel using the freighter pilot and stop being a whining moron. That's what everyone else does. Oh, and btw. use a cruor, takes almost no time to train and has dank web range. You're missing his point (although that was my reaction to reading the title to be fair). He wants to web the bumping machs. Why the hell would you want to do that? It's far more effective to web your freighter than to web the bumper. EvE is hard. It's harder if you're stupid. I couldn't have said it better. Hello, Mr Carebear. Would you like some cheese with that whine?
Syeed Ameer Ali Evil Murder Society 62	Posted - 2015.10.09 17:14:48 - [21] - Quote Mag's wrote: "*Just one more nerf and it will be balanced." At first I thought this was another nerf suggestion. Then I realized how much fun I could have following random people around highsec webbing the *** out of them and only getting a suspect flag. I suspect that this could be a better way to bait carebears even than shooting their MTUs. everevolutionaryfront.blogspot.com
Mag's the united 20409	Posted - 2015.10.09 17:21:19 - [22] - Quote Starcruiser Stasarik wrote: Mag's wrote: "*Just one more nerf and it will be balanced." I'm guessing you've never done any actual balancing of anything complex. Small iterative changes done over periods of time are the best way to achieve an actual balance, while trying to do single massive changes usually leave things in worse shape than before. "Balance" in a game like Eve isn't like a hardened blacksmith forging a sword with heavy-handed hits. It's like a retired carpenter whittling a statue on his front porch making a large number of small cuts. "One more change" eventually WILL reach the balance point, so long as the changes are done in small steps over time to see what the outcomes are. Also, making webs give suspect instead of criminal flags isn't so much a nerf as it is an open door for a lot of other potential content. You must be new to the forums, welcome. Now when you can explain why this is actually needed, what it fixes and why we should overlook the consequences of this change, then you can lecture me on the topic of balance. Serendipity Lost wrote:* I think you're being too sensitive again. Nah I just think all these ill thought out ideas, are just that. At least be honest and admit it's another call for one more nerf, even though a laughably bad one. Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Serendipity Lost Repo Industries 1461	Posted - 2015.10.09 17:21:57 - [23] - Quote Iain Cariaba wrote: afkalt wrote: RoCkEt X wrote: Just invite your webbing alt to a duel using the freighter pilot and stop being a whining moron. That's what everyone else does. Oh, and btw. use a cruor, takes almost no time to train and has dank web range. You're missing his point (although that was my reaction to reading the title to be fair). He wants to web the bumping machs. Why the hell would you want to do that? It's far more effective to web your freighter than to web the bumper. Webbing the mach would be very effective also. I think the idea of a freighter outrunning a mach and then warping off is pretty awesome. The bonus is the mach (and anyone else on the gate) can engage the webber. The bumpers could then bring 2 machs which would mean 2 webbers and so on. This is one of the best content creation ideas to come along in quite some time. There are several options for the webber. More range (cruor) or better webs (dare devil). There are a lot of open ended options for this. I see neutral white knights sitting in niarja aiding random freighter traffic. I see them being countered. I see small merc outfits randomly helping freighters looking for someone to do something about it. There is a lot of good that can come out of this idea. Empire webbing flag can do nothing but create content. This seems to be in line with what CCP has been foreshadowing - pilots takeing more control of eve. This would be a good first step back by CONCORD.
Mag's the united 20409	Posted - 2015.10.09 17:22:53 - [24] - Quote Syeed Ameer Ali wrote: Mag's wrote: "*Just one more nerf and it will be balanced." At first I thought this was another nerf suggestion. Then I realized how much fun I could have following random people around highsec webbing the * out of them and only getting a suspect flag. I suspect that this could be a better way to bait carebears even than shooting their MTUs. But that's the point bud. They are so fixated on nerfing, they fail to realise the inherent issues with what they ask for. Sure let's do it, then watch and laugh as the threadnaughts start with all the whining. Destination SkillQueue:-** It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Serendipity Lost Repo Industries 1461	Posted - 2015.10.09 17:27:19 - [25] - Quote Mag's wrote: Starcruiser Stasarik wrote: Mag's wrote: "*Just one more nerf and it will be balanced." I'm guessing you've never done any actual balancing of anything complex. Small iterative changes done over periods of time are the best way to achieve an actual balance, while trying to do single massive changes usually leave things in worse shape than before. "Balance" in a game like Eve isn't like a hardened blacksmith forging a sword with heavy-handed hits. It's like a retired carpenter whittling a statue on his front porch making a large number of small cuts. "One more change" eventually WILL reach the balance point, so long as the changes are done in small steps over time to see what the outcomes are. Also, making webs give suspect instead of criminal flags isn't so much a nerf as it is an open door for a lot of other potential content. You must be new to the forums, welcome. Now when you can explain why this is actually needed, what it fixes and why we should overlook the consequences of this change, then you can lecture me on the topic of balance. Serendipity Lost wrote:* I think you're being too sensitive again. Nah I just think all these ill thought out ideas, are just that. At least be honest and admit it's another call for one more nerf, even though a laughably bad one. If that's the way you see it, then this would be a place to give them what they want. They are asking to trade a red card out for a yellow card. Let them. If the guy is asking for content on a gate (going supsect) how can you frame that as a nerf to HS? How does this not promote empire PVP??
Mag's the united 20409	Posted - 2015.10.09 17:31:55 - [26] - Quote Serendipity Lost wrote: If that's the way you see it, then this would be a place to give them what they want. They are asking to trade a red card out for a yellow card. Let them. If the guy is asking for content on a gate (going supsect) how can you frame that as a nerf to HS? How does this not promote empire PVP?? Sure, go for it. I'm sure you've thought it through, just like the OP and think all will be well. I'm now all for it, simply because you like it. Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Serendipity Lost Repo Industries 1461	Posted - 2015.10.09 17:34:19 - [27] - Quote Mag's wrote: Serendipity Lost wrote: If that's the way you see it, then this would be a place to give them what they want. They are asking to trade a red card out for a yellow card. Let them. If the guy is asking for content on a gate (going supsect) how can you frame that as a nerf to HS? How does this not promote empire PVP?? Sure, go for it. I'm sure you've thought it through, just like the OP and think all will be well. I'm now all for it, simply because you like it. Finally! I'll be expecting this kind of support on everything from here on out.
Mag's the united 20410	Posted - 2015.10.09 17:39:15 - [28] - Quote Serendipity Lost wrote: Mag's wrote: Sure, go for it. I'm sure you've thought it through, just like the OP and think all will be well. I'm now all for it, simply because you like it. Finally! I'll be expecting this kind of support on everything from here on out. If it's bad, will backfire and you like it, the chances are I will say I'm all for it. I may be rather busy. Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Serendipity Lost Repo Industries 1461	Posted - 2015.10.09 17:44:31 - [29] - Quote I need all the help I can get. There is so much to do. Once this goes through, I'll web you every chance I get. Just cuz it will be the right thing to do.
Mag's the united 20410	Posted - 2015.10.09 18:01:56 - [30] - Quote Serendipity Lost wrote: I need all the help I can get. Can't argue with that. Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Thron Legacy White Zulu Scorpion Federation 24	Posted - 2015.10.09 20:31:08 - [31] - Quote I have to say bumpers are in as much risk as OGB, and have around the same impact (literally)
Barbara Nichole Cryogenic Consultancy 694	Posted - 2015.10.10 02:09:13 - [32] - Quote Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: Quote: you can't always save yourself from a good bumper some one being good at something is not a reason for you to change game mechanics Lots of people used to be good at AFK botting. -á-á- remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not-á "afk" cloaking-á- [IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG]
Donnachadh United Allegiance of Undesirables 575	Posted - 2015.10.10 13:11:27 - [33] - Quote Barbara Nichole wrote: Lugh Crow-Slave wrote: Quote: you can't always save yourself from a good bumper some one being good at something is not a reason for you to change game mechanics Lots of people used to be good at AFK botting. And I would add that some people used to be really good at can flipping and enjoyed that very much. Because some one is good at something is not a reason to keep it in the game.

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