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Ishmael Hansen No Quarter.	Posted - 2006.12.28 01:47:00 - [1] Ok, I was bored. So I started looking at the market and check out a ship I like, the cerberus. SO let's check a regular cerb fittings, 5 hml II, 3x bcu II, 1 DCU II, LSE II, Invul II, MSB II, Photon hardener II , and ab 2 250m + 65m + 33m + 30m + 6m + 22m + 1m + 6.5m + 2m = 350.5m I actually checked the market for the cost to produce a cerb if I had a non researched bpo and if I bought all the components from market and the total cost of the ship is 25m isk, which can easily get down to 17m which is the base price ccp has on Item database, I'm pretty sure if I had all the bpo's that the price of that ship wouldn't go far beyond the 35m totally tech 2 fitted. For some reason the base price that ccp has for the cerb is 17m and not 200m, and now there will arrive the forum tech 2 owner screaming: "tech 2 should be rare and uber etc", if ccp wants that let the npc market sell tech 2 at insane prices, "tech 2 prodution takes a lot of work", that one is actually correct, I took like almost 3 minutes checking prices for all the components, which is as much as I would take to buy them. I don't find fair that just from belonging to coughBoB/MCcough a player has the benefit to play eve on GOD mode aka the i-win button or easy mode. We have 140k players paying a monthly fee to be able to work online prolly harder then in rl just for a few bunch of player have all the pvp fun and stuff. And it's not like they worked for it.
Roemy Schneider BINFORD	Posted - 2006.12.28 01:50:00 - [2] you missed the two rigs ^^ - add 100-150mil
subvert	Posted - 2006.12.28 01:50:00 - [3] Edited by: subvert on 28/12/2006 01:52:17 T2 lottery is a horrible system, nuff said. most powerful items in the game given out at random, the power to print ISK. instead of spending development time on this vital part of the game they just put out the lottery. I dont know why they dont fix it and develop a better system. insta unlimited ISK, the best ISK item you can ever get, no risk, no effort. there is nothing hard about getting a t2 bpo, producing T2, and selling T2. it's all easy. you just right click to make things for 10 million ISK in mats and then right click to put it on the mark for 200 million ISK. it doesnt matter what you do in EVE, a veldspar miner can win a T2 BPO and instantly all your risks and efforts are poo compared to them.
Kaar Art of War Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.12.28 01:53:00 - [4] Stay with the drake mate, it really isnt that bad Hi o/ --- ---
subvert	Posted - 2006.12.28 01:55:00 - [5] yeah, stay with the drake. everyone should stop buying HACs, make those talentless T2 producers cry because instead of printing 100 billion ISK a day they can only print 90 billion ISK a day. mining veldspar is harder than what they do, and thats why they are crybabies whenever their HAC prices drop 100th of a %
AirWalker Amarr Galactic Response Team	Posted - 2006.12.28 01:58:00 - [6] Edited by: AirWalker on 28/12/2006 01:59:42 Khatred said it best a long time ago in an anti-tech2 thread.. "Tech 2 is a choice no one is forcing you to use it" or something to that effect and if you think you HAVE to use t2 to win you're dead wrong..... EDIT typo
Ishmael Hansen No Quarter.	Posted - 2006.12.28 01:58:00 - [7] Originally by: Kaar Stay with the drake mate, it really isnt that bad Hi o/ Drake has 7 launcher spots, thats 105m :( CCP will never fix invention nor the lotery so they don't break BoB/MC supremacy. CCP don't even comment on anything remotely connected to the tech 2 bpo's, unless they seeding more of them, most likely "randomly" like all the others.
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.12.28 02:00:00 - [8] Edited by: Dark Shikari on 28/12/2006 02:00:30 Originally by: Ishmael Hansen Originally by: Kaar Stay with the drake mate, it really isnt that bad Hi o/ Drake has 7 launcher spots, thats 105m :( CCP will never fix invention nor the lotery so they don't break BoB/MC supremacy. CCP don't even comment on anything remotely connected to the tech 2 bpo's, unless they seeding more of them, most likely "randomly" like all the others. The problem with heavy launcher IIs lies in the fact that there is only one long-range launcher type but there are three long-range turrets for each other race, so there are effectively 3 times fewer heavy launcher II BPOs. The problem is that CCP refuses to intelligently seed BPOs. They just blanket seed them all with similar numbers of BPOs rather than doing what's smart and seeding more where its necessary. -[23] Member- Listen to EVE-Trance Radio! (DSTrance channel ingame)
Ishmael Hansen No Quarter.	Posted - 2006.12.28 02:02:00 - [9] Originally by: AirWalker Khatred said it best a long time ago in an anti-tech2 thread.. "Tech 2 is a choide no one is forcing you to use it" or something to that effect and if you think you HAVE to use t2 to win you're dead wrong..... Ok, with Kali they changed the tech 2 ammo, but have you ever tried to fight MC sniping fleet with tech 1? Only thing you can do is look at overview, see them at 200+ km range and killing you. 10 tech 1 cruisers vs 10 tech 2 cruisers with deadspace and tech 2 fittings? C'mon, what game you're playing?
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.12.28 02:02:00 - [10] Edited by: Dark Shikari on 28/12/2006 02:02:48 Originally by: Ishmael Hansen Originally by: AirWalker Khatred said it best a long time ago in an anti-tech2 thread.. "Tech 2 is a choide no one is forcing you to use it" or something to that effect and if you think you HAVE to use t2 to win you're dead wrong..... Ok, with Kali they changed the tech 2 ammo, but have you ever tried to fight MC sniping fleet with tech 1? Only thing you can do is look at overview, see them at 200+ km range and killing you. 10 tech 1 cruisers vs 10 tech 2 cruisers with deadspace and tech 2 fittings? C'mon, what game you're playing? 10 T1 cruisers cost less than a single T2 cruiser with deadspace fittings. Its not even a fair comparison. In any real fight, an equal value of T1 cruisers, even a fifth the value, would absolutely destroy the T2 cruisers. And a Rokh can easily get the same range as a T2 sniping battleship without T2 guns for half the price. -[23] Member- Listen to EVE-Trance Radio! (DSTrance channel ingame)
AirWalker Amarr Galactic Response Team	Posted - 2006.12.28 02:08:00 - [11] Originally by: Dark Shikari Edited by: Dark Shikari on 28/12/2006 02:00:30 Originally by: Ishmael Hansen Originally by: Kaar Stay with the drake mate, it really isnt that bad Hi o/ Drake has 7 launcher spots, thats 105m :( CCP will never fix invention nor the lotery so they don't break BoB/MC supremacy. CCP don't even comment on anything remotely connected to the tech 2 bpo's, unless they seeding more of them, most likely "randomly" like all the others. The problem with heavy launcher IIs lies in the fact that there is only one long-range launcher type but there are three long-range turrets for each other race, so there are effectively 3 times fewer heavy launcher II BPOs. The problem is that CCP refuses to intelligently seed BPOs. They just blanket seed them all with similar numbers of BPOs rather than doing what's smart and seeding more where its necessary. isn't that the same problem they have with cloaks? .....and t2 cruise launchers?
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.12.28 02:12:00 - [12] Edited by: Dark Shikari on 28/12/2006 02:12:06 Originally by: AirWalker isn't that the same problem they have with cloaks? .....and t2 cruise launchers? For covert ops cloaks, the problem is simply that they're very often used but there aren't enough BPOs. To be exact, there are far more covert ops ships build every day than there are covert ops cloak IIs... which obviously doesn't make much sense. T2 cruise launchers have the same problem that all other T2 battleship guns have. IMO they should be somewhat expensive, though not as much as they are now. The problem begins when cruiser-and-above equipment starts costing considerably more than the ship it fits on -[23] Member- Listen to EVE-Trance Radio! (DSTrance channel ingame)
Roemy Schneider BINFORD	Posted - 2006.12.28 02:26:00 - [13] climbs up Dark shikari's shoulder and whispers into his ear 1 covert ops cloak for 4 covert frigs and 4 recon cruisers... they are bought a LOT rubbing hands
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.12.28 02:31:00 - [14] Originally by: Roemy Schneider climbs up Dark shikari's shoulder and whispers into his ear 1 covert ops cloak for 4 covert frigs and 4 recon cruisers... they are bought a LOT rubbing hands I think its CCP's ear you should be whispering into -[23] Member- Listen to EVE-Trance Radio! (DSTrance channel ingame)
Tommy TenKreds Animal Mercantile Executive	Posted - 2006.12.28 03:00:00 - [15] Originally by: Dark Shikari The problem is that CCP refuses to intelligently seed BPOs. They just blanket seed them all with similar numbers of BPOs rather than doing what's smart and seeding more where its necessary. You know what Shikari, that's the most intelligent comment I've seen about the T2 system on these forums, ever. The system would actually work far, far better if they did just as you said. Instead, CCP just blanket seeded another round of T2 BPO's - which is good for the market in some areas but will be potentially extremely damaging in those areas that are already over supplied. T2 industrials (transports), for example, were already well over supplied and now the prints are a joke. Certain mods, on the other hand, could do with twice or three times the seeding of other prints to bring their product prices down to sane and affordable levels. Good call man. Originally by: Tyrrax Thorrk Is there anything other than ISK you might be interested in?
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.12.28 03:05:00 - [16] Originally by: Tommy TenKreds Originally by: Dark Shikari The problem is that CCP refuses to intelligently seed BPOs. They just blanket seed them all with similar numbers of BPOs rather than doing what's smart and seeding more where its necessary. You know what Shikari, that's the most intelligent comment I've seen about the T2 system on these forums, ever. The system would actually work far, far better if they did just as you said. Instead, CCP just blanket seeded another round of T2 BPO's - which is good for the market in some areas but will be potentially extremely damaging in those areas that are already over supplied. T2 industrials (transports), for example, were already well over supplied and now the prints are a joke. Certain mods, on the other hand, could do with twice or three times the seeding of other prints to bring their product prices down to sane and affordable levels. Good call man. And its not just a matter of item types. There are a bunch of possibilities for "intelligent" seeding. 1. Seeding enough of tech 2 item X to cover its use in tech2 item Y (see Covert Ops Cloak BPOs). 2. Seeding enough of a Caldari item to satisfy demand in comparison to the lower demand for, say, a minmatar item. 3. Seeding extra 425mm II rails, for example, because both the Rokh and the Megathron use the same main gun. 4. Seeding extra heavy launcher IIs because there is only one type of long-range medium launcher while there are three types of all other long range medium guns. etc -[23] Member- Listen to EVE-Trance Radio! (DSTrance channel ingame)
Tommy TenKreds Animal Mercantile Executive	Posted - 2006.12.28 03:07:00 - [17] Originally by: Dark Shikari And its not just a matter of item types. There are a bunch of possibilities for "intelligent" seeding. 1. Seeding enough of tech 2 item X to cover its use in tech2 item Y (see Covert Ops Cloak BPOs). 2. Seeding enough of a Caldari item to satisfy demand in comparison to the lower demand for, say, a minmatar item. 3. Seeding extra 425mm II rails, for example, because both the Rokh and the Megathron use the same main gun. 4. Seeding extra heavy launcher IIs because there is only one type of long-range medium launcher while there are three types of all other long range medium guns. etc Yep agreed. Painfully obvious when you think about it really. Originally by: Tyrrax Thorrk Is there anything other than ISK you might be interested in?
Sorja E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.12.28 03:11:00 - [18] Originally by: AirWalker if you think you HAVE to use t2 to win you're dead wrong..... I don't know about the 'wrong' part, but you're spot on with the 'dead' part. Just for fun, why not ask BoB to fly only tech I ships with tech I fittings? Oops, almost forgot... they have tech II BPOs Remove tech II BPOs from the game and replace them with BPCs, just like with Invention, enough said. ____________________ A gentleman is someone who can play the bagpipe, but who does not.
Nimie	Posted - 2006.12.28 03:12:00 - [19] it doesn't take much to seed bpo based on how popular they are. the only reason they wouldn't is because they want people to use all mods equally, but haven't been able to design the game in a way that all mods were equally useful. if they were to seed more of the popular mods, people would use them even more and you would see the same ship fittings over and over. at least with the higher prices you can slightly prevent this, though keeping with the same number of bpos isn't the best way to deal with this. redesigning the game a bit right now is probaly too hard or not worth it at the current time or something.
Roemy Schneider BINFORD	Posted - 2006.12.28 03:19:00 - [20] well... now, that invention is in, we can forget about the whole BPC lottery thing. the RP, if not bunkered, have to take the route via datacores to end up in BPC... i see potential in invention; just some tweaking necessary, it seems (no, i don't want everyone to pump a BPC per day either)
Katril Wolf	Posted - 2006.12.28 05:15:00 - [21] Originally by: Dark Shikari The problem with heavy launcher IIs lies in the fact that there is only one long-range launcher type but there are three long-range turrets for each other race, so there are effectively 3 times fewer heavy launcher II BPOs. I would love to see the actual weapon list to get those numbers since I can't seem to come up with such a list. About the only logic I can see is that all races use missiles to some extent while each race tends to have its own turret type. But this is an imperfect example since the turrets have crossover among the races as well.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2006.12.28 05:29:00 - [22] Originally by: Dark Shikari There are a bunch of possibilities for "intelligent" seeding. How about this one... as long as AVERAGE JITA MARKET PRICE is 125% of "catalog" value or above for a T2 item, seed one extra BPO weekly. _ My skills \| Mod/Rig stacknerfing explained
Nimie	Posted - 2006.12.28 05:39:00 - [23] i don't know much about 0.0 wars, but don't missles suck there? i suppose guns were more useful so guns are destroyed more often. wouldn't the most "intelligent" way to seed be based on destrution rate instead of usage rate?
Lorth Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.12.28 05:45:00 - [24] Originally by: Nimie i don't know much about 0.0 wars, but don't missles suck there? i suppose guns were more useful so guns are destroyed more often. wouldn't the most "intelligent" way to seed be based on destrution rate instead of usage rate? They do, but that doesn't stop a large number of people from trying to use them. Not to mention the vast amount of people in empire running missions, who some how manage to die.
Tricit Caldari Dark Entropy	Posted - 2006.12.28 06:15:00 - [25] I'M SOOOOOO RICH... But I still want cheaper Tech II please! many xoxoxoxo kthx Sexy
Ishmael Hansen No Quarter.	Posted - 2006.12.28 06:28:00 - [26] Originally by: Tricit I'M SOOOOOO RICH... But I still want cheaper Tech II please! many xoxoxoxo kthx Stop trolling please. What do you mean by cheaper? you think 13m for a heavy missile launcher that costed 2m not long ago is cheap?
Siakel	Posted - 2006.12.28 07:01:00 - [27] Edited by: Siakel on 28/12/2006 07:02:01 Originally by: Dark Shikari 4. Seeding extra heavy launcher IIs because there is only one type of long-range medium launcher while there are three types of all other long range medium guns. Mmm... well, Minmatar medium T2 long-range guns only come in two types, and their prices are still far lower than T2 Heavy Missile Launchers, and even lower than Railguns, which come in three varieties. While Laser prices are dirt-cheap, even though they've got the same number of long-range medium T2 Beams as there are Medium T2 railguns.(If you actually count the Quad Light Beam...) It's not just the number of weapons in a class, or which ships use them, but the popularity of the modules, which is why it's so hard to balance the number of BPOs to cost ratio. If CCP release a bunch of HMLII BPOs then yeah, the prices might come down to Beam-like prices. But when Missiles are no longer the most popular weapon(Sometime... we can hope, right?), the HMLII market crashes and the BPOs go from 'just as valuable as Laser BPOs' to 'T2 BPO that is hardly worth the effort'. And to the people who are saying that T2 producers put forth very little effort to produce their stuff, have you ever tried producing T2 more than a 5-run BPC? Because I've got alliance mates who run T2 BPOs, and, shockingly enough, they don't just log on once a week, sell their T2 stuff for billions, buy 4 Carriers and a new T2 BPO, then log off. They put effort into it. They have to get the T1 items, the minerals, the T2 components, all in enough supply so their BPO can keep going. Yes, some of them make more ISK than you do. They also put forth a lot of effort to do so. Yes, you can put forth more effort and make less ISK. Life's not fair, is it? And while the Lottery does suck IMO, most T2 producers I know have bought most, if not all, of their BPOs.
Brutor Shaun Minmatar Freelancers UK Alliance	Posted - 2006.12.28 07:03:00 - [28] R+D agents should give out T2 BPCs when the T2 market prices go mental (base cost x 5?), and keep seeding them until the price drops to a sensible level. Problem solved?
XRay Blue	Posted - 2006.12.28 07:31:00 - [29] Get it: Eve is a highly capitalistic game, not a communistic. I¦ll never understand why some folks think that producers in Eve aren¦t allowed to earn money. It¦s an Eve business designed by CCP as miners, pirates or mission runners. The Tech II market is completely user-driven by design. The demand manages the price. High demand=high price. Low demand=low price. Tech II is a rich man¦s toy and not designed to be used by every poor beginner who lacks the money. Tech II is too expensive for you ? No problem: We have also Tech I on the market for extremly cheap prices ! And how often do we read how folks proudly claim they earn 10, 20, 40, 60, 80 million isk/hour by ratting, mining or complex farming ? So what is the problem to pay some millions for an interesting Tech II item ? Why aren¦t the Tech II producers not allowed to earn 0.1, 0.5, 1.0 million isk/hour ? Yes there are some items where exists a high demand so they have high prices. Some shameless high prices. But there also hundreds of items with low demand or too much offers on the market. I have a Small EMP Smartbomb II BPO, a Small Plasma Smartbomb II BPO, a Miner II BPO and a Medium Shield Transporter II BPO. Do you think I get rich with them ? The prices are almost near the production costs and let¦s say 90% of the produced aren¦t sold due to missing demand - so I lose money by producing those Tech II instead of getting "super-rich". So please complain about the prices of SPECIAL Tech II items like Cap recharger II, ships etc. but not about the Tech II market in whole. Most Tech II items are very fairly priced.
Miss Overlord Gallente Ferrum Pugnus New Eve Order	Posted - 2006.12.28 10:07:00 - [30] CCP invented invention so that t2 prices wouldnt be affected. I think u can still get t2 performance out of a t2 ship with a couple of carefully placed rigs instead of fittings unless u can afford em It is just hte way it is at the moment. These posts represent my personal views and not those of my corp or alliance. These do not reflect offical alliance or corp views This is a disclaimer

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