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Ishmael Hansen
No Quarter.
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Posted - 2006.12.28 01:47:00 -
[1]
Ok, I was bored. So I started looking at the market and check out a ship I like, the cerberus.
SO let's check a regular cerb fittings, 5 hml II, 3x bcu II, 1 DCU II, LSE II, Invul II, MSB II, Photon hardener II , and ab 2
250m + 65m + 33m + 30m + 6m + 22m + 1m + 6.5m + 2m = 350.5m
I actually checked the market for the cost to produce a cerb if I had a non researched bpo and if I bought all the components from market and the total cost of the ship is 25m isk, which can easily get down to 17m which is the base price ccp has on Item database, I'm pretty sure if I had all the bpo's that the price of that ship wouldn't go far beyond the 35m totally tech 2 fitted.
For some reason the base price that ccp has for the cerb is 17m and not 200m, and now there will arrive the forum tech 2 owner screaming: "tech 2 should be rare and uber etc", if ccp wants that let the npc market sell tech 2 at insane prices, "tech 2 prodution takes a lot of work", that one is actually correct, I took like almost 3 minutes checking prices for all the components, which is as much as I would take to buy them.
I don't find fair that just from belonging to *cough*BoB/MC*cough* a player has the benefit to play eve on GOD mode aka the i-win button or easy mode. We have 140k players paying a monthly fee to be able to work online prolly harder then in rl just for a few bunch of player have all the pvp fun and stuff. And it's not like they worked for it.
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Roemy Schneider
BINFORD
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Posted - 2006.12.28 01:50:00 -
[2]
you missed the two rigs ^^ - add 100-150mil
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subvert
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Posted - 2006.12.28 01:50:00 -
[3]
Edited by: subvert on 28/12/2006 01:52:17
T2 lottery is a horrible system, nuff said. most powerful items in the game given out at random, the power to print ISK. instead of spending development time on this vital part of the game they just put out the lottery. I dont know why they dont fix it and develop a better system.
insta unlimited ISK, the best ISK item you can ever get, no risk, no effort. there is nothing hard about getting a t2 bpo, producing T2, and selling T2. it's all easy. you just right click to make things for 10 million ISK in mats and then right click to put it on the mark for 200 million ISK. it doesnt matter what you do in EVE, a veldspar miner can win a T2 BPO and instantly all your risks and efforts are poo compared to them.
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Kaar
Art of War
Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2006.12.28 01:53:00 -
[4]
Stay with the drake mate, it really isnt that bad 
Hi o/
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subvert
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Posted - 2006.12.28 01:55:00 -
[5]
yeah, stay with the drake. everyone should stop buying HACs, make those talentless T2 producers cry because instead of printing 100 billion ISK a day they can only print 90 billion ISK a day. mining veldspar is harder than what they do, and thats why they are crybabies whenever their HAC prices drop 100th of a %
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AirWalker
Amarr
Galactic Response Team
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Posted - 2006.12.28 01:58:00 -
[6]
Edited by: AirWalker on 28/12/2006 01:59:42
Khatred said it best a long time ago in an anti-tech2 thread..
"Tech 2 is a choice no one is forcing you to use it" or something to that effect
and if you think you HAVE to use t2 to win you're dead wrong.....
EDIT typo
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Ishmael Hansen
No Quarter.
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Posted - 2006.12.28 01:58:00 -
[7]
 Originally by: Kaar
Stay with the drake mate, it really isnt that bad
Hi o/
Drake has 7 launcher spots, thats 105m :(
CCP will never fix invention nor the lotery so they don't break BoB/MC supremacy. CCP don't even comment on anything remotely connected to the tech 2 bpo's, unless they seeding more of them, most likely "randomly" like all the others.
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Dark Shikari
Caldari
Imperium Technologies
Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2006.12.28 02:00:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Dark Shikari on 28/12/2006 02:00:30
Originally by: Ishmael Hansen
Originally by: Kaar
Stay with the drake mate, it really isnt that bad
Hi o/
Drake has 7 launcher spots, thats 105m :(
CCP will never fix invention nor the lotery so they don't break BoB/MC supremacy. CCP don't even comment on anything remotely connected to the tech 2 bpo's, unless they seeding more of them, most likely "randomly" like all the others.
The problem with heavy launcher IIs lies in the fact that there is only one long-range launcher type but there are three long-range turrets for each other race, so there are effectively 3 times fewer heavy launcher II BPOs.
The problem is that CCP refuses to intelligently seed BPOs. They just blanket seed them all with similar numbers of BPOs rather than doing what's smart and seeding more where its necessary.
-[23] Member-
Listen to EVE-Trance Radio! (DSTrance channel ingame) |
Ishmael Hansen
No Quarter.
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Posted - 2006.12.28 02:02:00 -
[9]
Originally by: AirWalker
Khatred said it best a long time ago in an anti-tech2 thread..
"Tech 2 is a choide no one is forcing you to use it" or something to that effect
and if you think you HAVE to use t2 to win you're dead wrong.....
Ok, with Kali they changed the tech 2 ammo, but have you ever tried to fight MC sniping fleet with tech 1? Only thing you can do is look at overview, see them at 200+ km range and killing you. 10 tech 1 cruisers vs 10 tech 2 cruisers with deadspace and tech 2 fittings? C'mon, what game you're playing?
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Dark Shikari
Caldari
Imperium Technologies
Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2006.12.28 02:02:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Dark Shikari on 28/12/2006 02:02:48
Originally by: Ishmael Hansen
Originally by: AirWalker
Khatred said it best a long time ago in an anti-tech2 thread..
"Tech 2 is a choide no one is forcing you to use it" or something to that effect
and if you think you HAVE to use t2 to win you're dead wrong.....
Ok, with Kali they changed the tech 2 ammo, but have you ever tried to fight MC sniping fleet with tech 1? Only thing you can do is look at overview, see them at 200+ km range and killing you. 10 tech 1 cruisers vs 10 tech 2 cruisers with deadspace and tech 2 fittings? C'mon, what game you're playing?
10 T1 cruisers cost less than a single T2 cruiser with deadspace fittings. Its not even a fair comparison. In any real fight, an equal value of T1 cruisers, even a fifth the value, would absolutely destroy the T2 cruisers.
And a Rokh can easily get the same range as a T2 sniping battleship without T2 guns for half the price.
-[23] Member-
Listen to EVE-Trance Radio! (DSTrance channel ingame) |
AirWalker
Amarr
Galactic Response Team
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Posted - 2006.12.28 02:08:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Edited by: Dark Shikari on 28/12/2006 02:00:30
Originally by: Ishmael Hansen
Originally by: Kaar
Stay with the drake mate, it really isnt that bad
Hi o/
Drake has 7 launcher spots, thats 105m :(
CCP will never fix invention nor the lotery so they don't break BoB/MC supremacy. CCP don't even comment on anything remotely connected to the tech 2 bpo's, unless they seeding more of them, most likely "randomly" like all the others.
The problem with heavy launcher IIs lies in the fact that there is only one long-range launcher type but there are three long-range turrets for each other race, so there are effectively 3 times fewer heavy launcher II BPOs.
The problem is that CCP refuses to intelligently seed BPOs. They just blanket seed them all with similar numbers of BPOs rather than doing what's smart and seeding more where its necessary.
isn't that the same problem they have with cloaks?
.....and t2 cruise launchers?
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Dark Shikari
Caldari
Imperium Technologies
Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2006.12.28 02:12:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Dark Shikari on 28/12/2006 02:12:06
Originally by: AirWalker
isn't that the same problem they have with cloaks?
.....and t2 cruise launchers?
For covert ops cloaks, the problem is simply that they're very often used but there aren't enough BPOs. To be exact, there are far more covert ops ships build every day than there are covert ops cloak IIs... which obviously doesn't make much sense.
T2 cruise launchers have the same problem that all other T2 battleship guns have. IMO they should be somewhat expensive, though not as much as they are now. The problem begins when cruiser-and-above equipment starts costing considerably more than the ship it fits on 
-[23] Member-
Listen to EVE-Trance Radio! (DSTrance channel ingame) |
Roemy Schneider
BINFORD
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Posted - 2006.12.28 02:26:00 -
[13]
*climbs up Dark shikari's shoulder and whispers into his ear* 1 covert ops cloak for 4 covert frigs and 4 recon cruisers... they are bought a LOT *rubbing hands*
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Dark Shikari
Caldari
Imperium Technologies
Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2006.12.28 02:31:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Roemy Schneider
*climbs up Dark shikari's shoulder and whispers into his ear* 1 covert ops cloak for 4 covert frigs and 4 recon cruisers... they are bought a LOT *rubbing hands*
I think its CCP's ear you should be whispering into 
-[23] Member-
Listen to EVE-Trance Radio! (DSTrance channel ingame) |
Tommy TenKreds
Animal Mercantile Executive
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Posted - 2006.12.28 03:00:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Dark Shikari
The problem is that CCP refuses to intelligently seed BPOs. They just blanket seed them all with similar numbers of BPOs rather than doing what's smart and seeding more where its necessary.
You know what Shikari, that's the most intelligent comment I've seen about the T2 system on these forums, ever.
The system would actually work far, far better if they did just as you said.
Instead, CCP just blanket seeded another round of T2 BPO's - which is good for the market in some areas but will be potentially extremely damaging in those areas that are already over supplied. T2 industrials (transports), for example, were already well over supplied and now the prints are a joke.
Certain mods, on the other hand, could do with twice or three times the seeding of other prints to bring their product prices down to sane and affordable levels.
Good call man.
Originally by: Tyrrax Thorrk
Is there anything other than ISK you might be interested in? |
Dark Shikari
Caldari
Imperium Technologies
Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2006.12.28 03:05:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Tommy TenKreds
Originally by: Dark Shikari
The problem is that CCP refuses to intelligently seed BPOs. They just blanket seed them all with similar numbers of BPOs rather than doing what's smart and seeding more where its necessary.
You know what Shikari, that's the most intelligent comment I've seen about the T2 system on these forums, ever.
The system would actually work far, far better if they did just as you said.
Instead, CCP just blanket seeded another round of T2 BPO's - which is good for the market in some areas but will be potentially extremely damaging in those areas that are already over supplied. T2 industrials (transports), for example, were already well over supplied and now the prints are a joke.
Certain mods, on the other hand, could do with twice or three times the seeding of other prints to bring their product prices down to sane and affordable levels.
Good call man.
And its not just a matter of item types.
There are a bunch of possibilities for "intelligent" seeding.
1. Seeding enough of tech 2 item X to cover its use in tech2 item Y (see Covert Ops Cloak BPOs).
2. Seeding enough of a Caldari item to satisfy demand in comparison to the lower demand for, say, a minmatar item.
3. Seeding extra 425mm II rails, for example, because both the Rokh and the Megathron use the same main gun.
4. Seeding extra heavy launcher IIs because there is only one type of long-range medium launcher while there are three types of all other long range medium guns.
etc
-[23] Member-
Listen to EVE-Trance Radio! (DSTrance channel ingame) |
Tommy TenKreds
Animal Mercantile Executive
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Posted - 2006.12.28 03:07:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Dark Shikari
And its not just a matter of item types.
There are a bunch of possibilities for "intelligent" seeding.
1. Seeding enough of tech 2 item X to cover its use in tech2 item Y (see Covert Ops Cloak BPOs).
2. Seeding enough of a Caldari item to satisfy demand in comparison to the lower demand for, say, a minmatar item.
3. Seeding extra 425mm II rails, for example, because both the Rokh and the Megathron use the same main gun.
4. Seeding extra heavy launcher IIs because there is only one type of long-range medium launcher while there are three types of all other long range medium guns.
etc
Yep agreed. Painfully obvious when you think about it really.
Originally by: Tyrrax Thorrk
Is there anything other than ISK you might be interested in? |
Sorja
E X O D U S
Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2006.12.28 03:11:00 -
[18]
Originally by: AirWalker
if you think you HAVE to use t2 to win you're dead wrong.....
I don't know about the 'wrong' part, but you're spot on with the 'dead' part.
Just for fun, why not ask BoB to fly only tech I ships with tech I fittings?
Oops, almost forgot... they have tech II BPOs
Remove tech II BPOs from the game and replace them with BPCs, just like with Invention, enough said.
____________________
A gentleman is someone who can play the bagpipe, but who does not. |
Nimie
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Posted - 2006.12.28 03:12:00 -
[19]
it doesn't take much to seed bpo based on how popular they are. the only reason they wouldn't is because they want people to use all mods equally, but haven't been able to design the game in a way that all mods were equally useful. if they were to seed more of the popular mods, people would use them even more and you would see the same ship fittings over and over. at least with the higher prices you can slightly prevent this, though keeping with the same number of bpos isn't the best way to deal with this. redesigning the game a bit right now is probaly too hard or not worth it at the current time or something.
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Roemy Schneider
BINFORD
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Posted - 2006.12.28 03:19:00 -
[20]
well... now, that invention is in, we can forget about the whole BPC lottery thing. the RP, if not bunkered, have to take the route via datacores to end up in BPC...
i see potential in invention; just some tweaking necessary, it seems (no, i don't want everyone to pump a BPC per day either)
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Katril Wolf
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Posted - 2006.12.28 05:15:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Dark Shikari
The problem with heavy launcher IIs lies in the fact that there is only one long-range launcher type but there are three long-range turrets for each other race, so there are effectively 3 times fewer heavy launcher II BPOs.
I would love to see the actual weapon list to get those numbers since I can't seem to come up with such a list.
About the only logic I can see is that all races use missiles to some extent while each race tends to have its own turret type. But this is an imperfect example since the turrets have crossover among the races as well.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2006.12.28 05:29:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Dark Shikari
There are a bunch of possibilities for "intelligent" seeding.
How about this one... as long as AVERAGE JITA MARKET PRICE is 125% of "catalog" value or above for a T2 item, seed one extra BPO weekly.
_
My skills | Mod/Rig stacknerfing explained |
Nimie
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Posted - 2006.12.28 05:39:00 -
[23]
i don't know much about 0.0 wars, but don't missles suck there? i suppose guns were more useful so guns are destroyed more often. wouldn't the most "intelligent" way to seed be based on destrution rate instead of usage rate?
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Lorth
Body Count Inc.
Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2006.12.28 05:45:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Nimie
i don't know much about 0.0 wars, but don't missles suck there? i suppose guns were more useful so guns are destroyed more often. wouldn't the most "intelligent" way to seed be based on destrution rate instead of usage rate?
They do, but that doesn't stop a large number of people from trying to use them. Not to mention the vast amount of people in empire running missions, who some how manage to die.
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Tricit
Caldari
Dark Entropy
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Posted - 2006.12.28 06:15:00 -
[25]
I'M SOOOOOO RICH... But I still want cheaper Tech II please!
many xoxoxoxo
kthx
Sexy |
Ishmael Hansen
No Quarter.
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Posted - 2006.12.28 06:28:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Tricit
I'M SOOOOOO RICH... But I still want cheaper Tech II please!
many xoxoxoxo
kthx
Stop trolling please. What do you mean by cheaper? you think 13m for a heavy missile launcher that costed 2m not long ago is cheap?
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Siakel
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Posted - 2006.12.28 07:01:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Siakel on 28/12/2006 07:02:01
Originally by: Dark Shikari
4. Seeding extra heavy launcher IIs because there is only one type of long-range medium launcher while there are three types of all other long range medium guns.
Mmm... well, Minmatar medium T2 long-range guns only come in two types, and their prices are still far lower than T2 Heavy Missile Launchers, and even lower than Railguns, which come in three varieties. While Laser prices are dirt-cheap, even though they've got the same number of long-range medium T2 Beams as there are Medium T2 railguns.(If you actually count the Quad Light Beam...)
It's not just the number of weapons in a class, or which ships use them, but the popularity of the modules, which is why it's so hard to balance the number of BPOs to cost ratio. If CCP release a bunch of HMLII BPOs then yeah, the prices might come down to Beam-like prices. But when Missiles are no longer the most popular weapon(Sometime... we can hope, right?), the HMLII market crashes and the BPOs go from 'just as valuable as Laser BPOs' to 'T2 BPO that is hardly worth the effort'.
And to the people who are saying that T2 producers put forth very little effort to produce their stuff, have you ever tried producing T2 more than a 5-run BPC? Because I've got alliance mates who run T2 BPOs, and, shockingly enough, they don't just log on once a week, sell their T2 stuff for billions, buy 4 Carriers and a new T2 BPO, then log off. They put effort into it. They have to get the T1 items, the minerals, the T2 components, all in enough supply so their BPO can keep going.
Yes, some of them make more ISK than you do. They also put forth a lot of effort to do so. Yes, you can put forth more effort and make less ISK. Life's not fair, is it?
And while the Lottery does suck IMO, most T2 producers I know have bought most, if not all, of their BPOs.
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Brutor Shaun
Minmatar
Freelancers UK Alliance
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Posted - 2006.12.28 07:03:00 -
[28]
R+D agents should give out T2 BPCs when the T2 market prices go mental (base cost x 5?), and keep seeding them until the price drops to a sensible level. Problem solved?
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XRay Blue
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Posted - 2006.12.28 07:31:00 -
[29]
Get it: Eve is a highly capitalistic game, not a communistic. IŠll never understand why some folks think that producers in Eve arenŠt allowed to earn money. ItŠs an Eve business designed by CCP as miners, pirates or mission runners.
The Tech II market is completely user-driven by design. The demand manages the price. High demand=high price. Low demand=low price. Tech II is a rich manŠs toy and not designed to be used by every poor beginner who lacks the money. Tech II is too expensive for you ? No problem: We have also Tech I on the market for extremly cheap prices !
And how often do we read how folks proudly claim they earn 10, 20, 40, 60, 80 million isk/hour by ratting, mining or complex farming ? So what is the problem to pay some millions for an interesting Tech II item ? Why arenŠt the Tech II producers not allowed to earn 0.1, 0.5, 1.0 million isk/hour ?
Yes there are some items where exists a high demand so they have high prices. Some shameless high prices. But there also hundreds of items with low demand or too much offers on the market. I have a Small EMP Smartbomb II BPO, a Small Plasma Smartbomb II BPO, a Miner II BPO and a Medium Shield Transporter II BPO. Do you think I get rich with them ? The prices are almost near the production costs and letŠs say 90% of the produced arenŠt sold due to missing demand - so I lose money by producing those Tech II instead of getting "super-rich".
So please complain about the prices of SPECIAL Tech II items like Cap recharger II, ships etc. but not about the Tech II market in whole. Most Tech II items are very fairly priced.
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Miss Overlord
Gallente
Ferrum Pugnus
New Eve Order
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Posted - 2006.12.28 10:07:00 -
[30]
CCP invented invention so that t2 prices wouldnt be affected. I think u can still get t2 performance out of a t2 ship with a couple of carefully placed rigs instead of fittings unless u can afford em
It is just hte way it is at the moment.
These posts represent my personal views and not those of my corp or alliance. These do not reflect offical alliance or corp views
This is a disclaimer |
Tachy
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Posted - 2006.12.28 10:16:00 -
[31]
If you don't want to hand out the money, don't.
--*=*=*--
The cause for this is not yet known, but we do have a possible fix in testing.
by Sharkbait | 2006.09.20 |
RichThugster
Gallente
Revelations Inc.
Shroud Of Darkness
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Posted - 2006.12.28 10:22:00 -
[32]
CCP could make the fairest system in the world and someone would still cry "oh nose, i want an isk printing machine." CCP could give everyone who ever moaned about it a BPO, then more will come and moan. CCP have said they hate the lotto system, however there are few better ways to do it.
When you bear in mind not all T2 BPOs are a license to print isk, and a lot you actually have to work for isk. I have the Null L BPO, i used to have the Caldari t2 ECM module BPO. both make/made little profit especially for the effort i had to put into it. Null L took 2 weeks worth of skill training, and due to the huge volume of the stuff on market, its hard to make much of a profit. much the same with the ECM module. Both of these BPOs i had to sell other assets which were worked for to obtain, so its not be being unlucky in the t2 lotto.
There are very few isk printing BPOs out there, and the ppl that own them, didnt always get them thru the lotto. I used to know this guy back before decent t2 modules were out. AFAIK the only BPO he got thru agent was the Signal Amplifier 2 BPO. tbh a pretty crap BPO. however thru working hard with running POS and building components for t2 items, he built up a huge amount of isk. he had about 20bil isk worth of raw materials most of the time. with this isk he bought a number of t2 BPOs and expanded his collection, and started to own isk printing machines. He worked for that and tbh he deserves it.
T2 is a privilige, not a right, if you dont like the prices dont pay them and dont buy it. Not having the best t2 ships and gear doesnt hamper your playing style
REVELATIONS RECRUITING NOW |
Ogul
Caldari
ZiTek Deepspace Explorations
Prime Orbital Systems
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Posted - 2006.12.28 10:24:00 -
[33]
Originally by: XRay Blue
The Tech II market is completely user-driven by design. The demand manages the price. High demand=high price. Low demand=low price.
Wrong. The T2 market can never be completely user-driven as long as there is absolutely no possibility to increase supply in order to meet demand.
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Tachy
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Posted - 2006.12.28 11:17:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Ogul
Originally by: XRay Blue
The Tech II market is completely user-driven by design. The demand manages the price. High demand=high price. Low demand=low price.
Wrong. The T2 market can never be completely user-driven as long as there is absolutely no possibility to increase supply in order to meet demand.
For more than 80% of the T2 stuff we already had an oversupply when [REV] arrived on our harddrives. With the new and reseeded BPO, we're probably at 90%.
--*=*=*--
The cause for this is not yet known, but we do have a possible fix in testing.
by Sharkbait | 2006.09.20 |
Fanghorn Dewberry
Caldari
The Flaming Sideburn's
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Posted - 2006.12.28 11:22:00 -
[35]
Why oh why is the navy or faction ship not better than the t2 ship ?
Surely the navy would would fly a better ship ?
Solution make navy ships better. yeah ok it'll never happen.
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Tanis Bastar
Caldari
Interstitial Incorporated
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Posted - 2006.12.28 11:55:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Tanis Bastar on 28/12/2006 11:56:58
Originally by: XRay Blue
Get it: Eve is a highly capitalistic game, not a communistic.
I am sick of hearing this, when T2 production is limited by the "government" to BPOs handed out to a lucky few, and no competition whatsoever is allowed. This is closer to communism than any form of capitalism I have ever seen. Invention could have changed this, but apparently won't.
Originally by: XRay Blue
The Tech II market is completely user-driven by design.
Wrong, unless by user-driven you mean that there are always more and more players in the game, which is meaningless. The T2 market is driven by a fixed (and in many cases inadequate) number of BPOs (which is NOT player driven) being unable to produce enough for the ever-increasing player-base.
Originally by: XRay Blue
Why arenŠt the Tech II producers not allowed to earn 0.1, 0.5, 1.0 million isk/hour ?
OK, a million an hour for a T2 BPO holder would be 161 million a week (running 23/7), which is pretty high compared to let's say a mission runner who probably could at most play 40 hours a week for forty million per week. Not fair perhaps, but probably not enough to get people up in arms. But what about the guy who recently posted on the forums about how he earned a billion a week from his T2 BPO? That's what I think is broken.
Originally by: XRay Blue
So please complain about the prices of SPECIAL Tech II items like Cap recharger II, ships etc. but not about the Tech II market in whole. Most Tech II items are very fairly priced.
As far as I can tell, that's what people are complaining about. Who knows how many BPOs have been reseeded, but I hope CCP didn't just willy-nilly release all of them in equal numbers without any analysis. It sounds like many T2 items won't be worth the bother to produce if profit margins are too low (or even negative).
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RichThugster
Gallente
Revelations Inc.
Shroud Of Darkness
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Posted - 2006.12.28 12:07:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Tanis Bastar
As far as I can tell, that's what people are complaining about. Who knows how many BPOs have been reseeded, but I hope CCP didn't just willy-nilly release all of them in equal numbers without any analysis. It sounds like many T2 items won't be worth the bother to produce if profit margins are too low (or even negative).
so CCP should look at the profit margins and release t2 BPOs accordingly. So my Ammo BPO will make as much profit margin as a HAC BPO? if your seriously suggesting ccp should look and say "oh nose, vagabonds are selling at 1200% profit margrins, quick release more BPOs to balance it out" then you truely are retarded. if your not saying that, then you need to make your point again and more clear
REVELATIONS RECRUITING NOW |
Tachy
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Posted - 2006.12.28 12:11:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Tanis Bastar
[loads of half truths and uninformed text]
Open the market.
Check the T2 stuff.
Do some math about production time, costs and compare the income to similar T1 production.
While you're at it, check if the theoretical maximal output of the T2 BPO reaches the market, or of half the BPO aren't inactive because you're better off building T1 stuff. Removing 10-25% of the theoretical max. output is okay as most T2 production cycles have quite a duration compared to T1 where you often enough can set the production duration to match your playing habits within a couple of minutes +/-.
--*=*=*--
The cause for this is not yet known, but we do have a possible fix in testing.
by Sharkbait | 2006.09.20 |
Ogul
Caldari
ZiTek Deepspace Explorations
Prime Orbital Systems
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Posted - 2006.12.28 12:47:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Tachy
Originally by: Ogul
Wrong. The T2 market can never be completely user-driven as long as there is absolutely no possibility to increase supply in order to meet demand.
For more than 80% of the T2 stuff we already had an oversupply when [REV] arrived on our harddrives. With the new and reseeded BPO, we're probably at 90%.
Agreed. But that's beside the point.
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Ogul
Caldari
ZiTek Deepspace Explorations
Prime Orbital Systems
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Posted - 2006.12.28 12:50:00 -
[40]
Originally by: RichThugster
if your seriously suggesting ccp should look and say "oh nose, vagabonds are selling at 1200% profit margrins, quick release more BPOs to balance it out" then you truely are retarded. if your not saying that, then you need to make your point again and more clear
Please explain why that would be such a bad idea instead of calling him retarded.
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Tanis Bastar
Caldari
Interstitial Incorporated
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Posted - 2006.12.28 13:39:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Tanis Bastar on 28/12/2006 13:39:32
Originally by: RichThugster
so CCP should look at the profit margins and release t2 BPOs accordingly. So my Ammo BPO will make as much profit margin as a HAC BPO? if your seriously suggesting ccp should look and say "oh nose, vagabonds are selling at 1200% profit margrins, quick release more BPOs to balance it out" then you truely are retarded. if your not saying that, then you need to make your point again and more clear
Well, thanks for the civil response.
First, I never said that CCP should analyze profit margins or any other specific metric, but I think that some data-based analysis would be in order if they insist on continuing the lottery. They could do it a hundred ways, but almost any data analysis would be better than none.
For instance, if all of the T2 BPOs for a particular item can produce, say, 1000 items a month, and only 300 items per month are being sold, it means that either: (1) there is no demand for the item and no more BPOs should be released; or (2) for whatever reason, the producer is not making the item, even though there is demand for it, so maybe more BPOs should be released. I would expect that it would be fairly easy to distinguish between the two cases by examining profit margins, distribution of the items that were produced, market queries for the item, etc.
On the other hand, if an item's profit margins regularly exceed a specified percentage--300%, 500%, 1000%, whatever--that could trigger another review to see if another BPO should be released. These reseedings could be based on data analysis every 3-6 months.
Yes, this would involve more work for CCP, but not much, and that is why we're paying them monthly fees. Maybe this is in fact what they've done with the current re-seed, but since they haven't said anything, and since many crappy T2 items and ammo seem to have been reseeded, it looks like they just dumped a bunch more T2 BPOs into the lottery without considering the effects. This is why I find it really funny when people say that the T2 lottery and its effects are "capitalism".
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Martinez
Federation of Freedom Fighters
Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2006.12.28 14:29:00 -
[42]
Edited by: Martinez on 28/12/2006 14:30:15
Originally by: Ishmael Hansen
Ok, I was bored. So I started looking at the market and check out a ship I like, the cerberus.
SO let's check a regular cerb fittings, 5 hml II, 3x bcu II, 1 DCU II, LSE II, Invul II, MSB II, Photon hardener II , and ab 2
250m + 65m + 33m + 30m + 6m + 22m + 1m + 6.5m + 2m = 350.5m
I actually checked the market for the cost to produce a cerb if I had a non researched bpo and if I bought all the components from market and the total cost of the ship is 25m isk, which can easily get down to 17m which is the base price ccp has on Item database, I'm pretty sure if I had all the bpo's that the price of that ship wouldn't go far beyond the 35m totally tech 2 fitted.
For some reason the base price that ccp has for the cerb is 17m and not 200m, and now there will arrive the forum tech 2 owner screaming: "tech 2 should be rare and uber etc", if ccp wants that let the npc market sell tech 2 at insane prices, "tech 2 prodution takes a lot of work", that one is actually correct, I took like almost 3 minutes checking prices for all the components, which is as much as I would take to buy them
I don't find fair that just from belonging to *cough*BoB/MC*cough* a player has the benefit to play eve on GOD mode aka the i-win button or easy mode. We have 140k players paying a monthly fee to be able to work online prolly harder then in rl just for a few bunch of player have all the pvp fun and stuff. And it's not like they worked for it.
Stop the *****ing man! Last time i checked the bpos were still out there. Let them all be seeded before you continue your endless crying. I hope you have a research agent and you get the cerb bpo so you can sell all to all of eve a 60million isk cerb. Its getting old man, really old.
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Pattern Clarc
The Priory
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Posted - 2006.12.28 14:44:00 -
[43]
Originally by: XRay Blue
The Tech II market is completely user-driven by design.
If players seeded the BPO's, we wouldn't have this problem
Sig removed lacks EVE content, email [email protected] if you have any questions - Xorus |
Ishmael Hansen
No Quarter.
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Posted - 2006.12.28 14:46:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Ishmael Hansen on 28/12/2006 14:46:36
Originally by: Martinez
Edited by: Martinez on 28/12/2006 14:30:15
Originally by: Ishmael Hansen
Ok, I was bored. So I started looking at the market and check out a ship I like, the cerberus.
SO let's check a regular cerb fittings, 5 hml II, 3x bcu II, 1 DCU II, LSE II, Invul II, MSB II, Photon hardener II , and ab 2
250m + 65m + 33m + 30m + 6m + 22m + 1m + 6.5m + 2m = 350.5m
I actually checked the market for the cost to produce a cerb if I had a non researched bpo and if I bought all the components from market and the total cost of the ship is 25m isk, which can easily get down to 17m which is the base price ccp has on Item database, I'm pretty sure if I had all the bpo's that the price of that ship wouldn't go far beyond the 35m totally tech 2 fitted.
For some reason the base price that ccp has for the cerb is 17m and not 200m, and now there will arrive the forum tech 2 owner screaming: "tech 2 should be rare and uber etc", if ccp wants that let the npc market sell tech 2 at insane prices, "tech 2 prodution takes a lot of work", that one is actually correct, I took like almost 3 minutes checking prices for all the components, which is as much as I would take to buy them
I don't find fair that just from belonging to *cough*BoB/MC*cough* a player has the benefit to play eve on GOD mode aka the i-win button or easy mode. We have 140k players paying a monthly fee to be able to work online prolly harder then in rl just for a few bunch of player have all the pvp fun and stuff. And it's not like they worked for it.
Stop the *****ing man! Last time i checked the bpos were still out there. Let them all be seeded before you continue your endless crying. I hope you have a research agent and you get the cerb bpo so you can sell all to all of eve a 60million isk cerb. Its getting old man, really old.
Yes it's getting old, but CCP hasn't fixed this yet. 2 years waiting for a r&d fix now they send invention which is just a bad joke and it's not even april fools day.
And yeah selling cerb at 60m yields 200% profit so stfu already.
Do you really think more bpo's will solve the problem?
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Martinez
Federation of Freedom Fighters
Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2006.12.28 15:05:00 -
[45]
We dont know if it will fix it. I dont know how many bpos have been seeded, but i certainly am not starting up treads complaining until ccp at least finishes the seeding. Also invention was nerfed completely prerelease to make sure that it was not overpowered. ccp will fix invention i am sure. As for 200% profit, the costs on hacs is more than 20million with mins, components, lab slots, and manufactoring slots. Then their is the time it takes to move these products production sites, then move the finished product to the consumers. What is a reasonable mark up for t2 stuff in your eyes. 10%?
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Ishmael Hansen
No Quarter.
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Posted - 2006.12.28 15:17:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Martinez
We dont know if it will fix it. I dont know how many bpos have been seeded, but i certainly am not starting up treads complaining until ccp at least finishes the seeding. Also invention was nerfed completely prerelease to make sure that it was not overpowered. ccp will fix invention i am sure. As for 200% profit, the costs on hacs is more than 20million with mins, components, lab slots, and manufactoring slots. Then their is the time it takes to move these products production sites, then move the finished product to the consumers. What is a reasonable mark up for t2 stuff in your eyes. 10%?
cerberus has a 1000% markup, and that's with me sitting on a station just putting buy orders, so don't bull **** me.
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Earthan
Gallente
The Amazing Fire Eaters
Breidablik
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Posted - 2006.12.28 15:19:00 -
[47]
i cant afford those prices so i adapt: no hac (not really a must have ships, you can do same stuff in other ships) , and start using tech1 snipers, with some effort and named rails you can get it to 150 km.Add guardian iron ammo, and its a fair substitute for t2 snipers, cloaks for recons are the ***** cause yuo cant substitute them.
Well i think to current situations sucks.Hope the steps taken will balance it soon.
For me reasoanble price for hac is ~60 milions.Actually there was some time they did cost like this, for some time the prices were at that level then they skyrocketed.Its tinfoil hat theory ofc , no proves, but to me it looked as if all havc bpo were bought by one entity or cartel was formed...
It should be like this imho.
I have said a few times that imho t2 should be given randomly as limited run bpcs but often.That way you dont have few persons htitng jackpot.
The Amazing Fire Eaters webpage
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Nimie
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Posted - 2006.12.28 15:35:00 -
[48]
if you don't want people hitting the jackpot, you could also give out horrible pe bpos.
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Martinez
Federation of Freedom Fighters
Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2006.12.28 15:42:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Ishmael Hansen
Originally by: Martinez
We dont know if it will fix it. I dont know how many bpos have been seeded, but i certainly am not starting up treads complaining until ccp at least finishes the seeding. Also invention was nerfed completely prerelease to make sure that it was not overpowered. ccp will fix invention i am sure. As for 200% profit, the costs on hacs is more than 20million with mins, components, lab slots, and manufactoring slots. Then their is the time it takes to move these products production sites, then move the finished product to the consumers. What is a reasonable mark up for t2 stuff in your eyes. 10%?
cerberus has a 1000% markup, and that's with me sitting on a station just putting buy orders, so don't bull **** me.
Like said before ccp is seeding more bpos and going to fix invention. All i said to you was, quit complaining and give it time to set in. did you want ccp to seed all the bpos in one day? You have not once that i have ever seen come up with a better idea than ccp has, all i ever hear you say is "WHAA WHAA, i dont like paying top isk for a very good ship" supply and demand buddy, supply and demand. ccp working on the supply part.
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Soulita
Gallente
Inner Core
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Posted - 2006.12.28 16:18:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Soulita on 28/12/2006 16:20:11
Originally by: Tachy
Originally by: Tanis Bastar
[loads of half truths and uninformed text]
Open the market.
Check the T2 stuff.
Do some math about production time, costs and compare the income to similar T1 production.
While you're at it, check if the theoretical maximal output of the T2 BPO reaches the market, or of half the BPO aren't inactive because you're better off building T1 stuff. Removing 10-25% of the theoretical max. output is okay as most T2 production cycles have quite a duration compared to T1 where you often enough can set the production duration to match your playing habits within a couple of minutes +/-.
Very simple, give me your t2 BPOs, I will take care of them.
And inactive t2 BPOs? Probably from peeps who quit the game or from peeps who have more then 1 type of t2 BPO and dont put the less profitable ones in production to drive prices up.
Any other sane person who has a t2 BPO, and be it only an ammo one, would sell it if she/he doesnt want to produce from it.
And for most normal players, the 1 bil minimum you get for it is a lot of isk. Probably not for you Tachy, probably you have lost all orientation on whats a lot of isk and whats not.
Have a nice day.
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BoBoZoBo
Foundation
R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2006.12.28 16:21:00 -
[51]
I dont get this whole argument either.. I make PLENTY of billions using JUST T1 BPOs. Something tells me that most of these poeple would STILL have trouble with a T2 BPO.
=========================
Minister of Propaganda - Operator 9 |
Athren Soulsteal
Gallente
Intergalaxy Salvage And Repair
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Posted - 2006.12.28 16:27:00 -
[52]
Quote:
Like said before ccp is seeding more bpos and going to fix invention. All i said to you was, quit complaining and give it time to set in. did you want ccp to seed all the bpos in one day? You have not once that i have ever seen come up with a better idea than ccp has, all i ever hear you say is "WHAA WHAA, i dont like paying top isk for a very good ship" supply and demand buddy, supply and demand. ccp working on the supply part.
Fix invention... ROFLSMOMN...
Oh your are serious... Invention is a joke and always will be. Its a red harring CCP threw in as a quick Bait and Switch for Reverse Enginnering.
And they have had three plus (3+) years to come up with and fix it.
As far as the Supply and demand part you are right CCP keeps supplying but to the wrong players. Do you remember how T2 got introduced? I'll give you a hint, it was a Miner II BPO. CCP has a track record of supplying not to those that work or train for it but those that "happen" to be luckly. I have seen it happen too often in EVE to believe in luck.
And as far as a better way that has also been suggested to CCP for three plus (3+) years. If, as the current t2 BPO owners say, the T2 items are so hard to produce would that not be the regulating factor? Really, in this Game if all the T2 BPOs were put on the market at 1000% higer cost than their T1 counterparts what would the actual results be?
Yes it would hurt a very few players, that did not work or train for it, who happend to get "lucky" but would it hurt the other 99% of the player base? I dare say it would greatly improve the game in ways to obvious to point out.
Yes there will be the counter arguements of "then i could not print ungodly amount of isk" and "Then I would have to actually fight players in t2 ships so my Pownage would be affected" but those arguments only affect you, not the other 99% of the player base.
Quote:
Think about the people that did fight you fairly. Think.... that were honorable and helped you out in times of need. Those are the real heroes of EVE.
I wish I could fit all the Quote |
tiller
MAFIA
Pirate Coalition
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Posted - 2006.12.28 16:33:00 -
[53]
to the op:
If you dont like the prices fit t1 or named. The whole point of t2 is to be a luxury item... it should only be used by the more well off people in eve.
I have not been happy seeing t2 drop to prices where everyone uses it...
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Karunel
Princeps Corp
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Posted - 2006.12.28 16:48:00 -
[54]
Quote:
The Tech II market is completely user-driven by design. The demand manages the price. High demand=high price. Low demand=low price.
How can something be completely user driven when max supply is pre-determined?
Originally by: elbenito
The problem with large fleet engagements is that the hamsters stop to watch.
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Tachy
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Posted - 2006.12.28 17:38:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Soulita
[...]
Very simple, give me your t2 BPOs, I will take care of them.
And inactive t2 BPOs? Probably from peeps who quit the game or from peeps who have more then 1 type of t2 BPO and dont put the less profitable ones in production to drive prices up.
Any other sane person who has a t2 BPO, and be it only an ammo one, would sell it if she/he doesnt want to produce from it.
And for most normal players, the 1 bil minimum you get for it is a lot of isk. Probably not for you Tachy, probably you have lost all orientation on whats a lot of isk and whats not.
Have a nice day.
Thank you for your concern, but I think I will keep my BPO. At least you never know what ccp will change next.
And when they balance T2 ammo the next time, I'll already have a nice stack of ammo right there.
I know quite a couple of BPO that are sitting idle because the BPO owners built a stack or two and the market doesn't require a constant supply.
--*=*=*--
The cause for this is not yet known, but we do have a possible fix in testing.
by Sharkbait | 2006.09.20 |
Ishmael Hansen
No Quarter.
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Posted - 2006.12.28 17:52:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Athren Soulsteal
Quote:
Like said before ccp is seeding more bpos and going to fix invention. All i said to you was, quit complaining and give it time to set in. did you want ccp to seed all the bpos in one day? You have not once that i have ever seen come up with a better idea than ccp has, all i ever hear you say is "WHAA WHAA, i dont like paying top isk for a very good ship" supply and demand buddy, supply and demand. ccp working on the supply part.
Fix invention... ROFLSMOMN...
Oh your are serious... Invention is a joke and always will be. Its a red harring CCP threw in as a quick Bait and Switch for Reverse Enginnering.
And they have had three plus (3+) years to come up with and fix it.
As far as the Supply and demand part you are right CCP keeps supplying but to the wrong players. Do you remember how T2 got introduced? I'll give you a hint, it was a Miner II BPO. CCP has a track record of supplying not to those that work or train for it but those that "happen" to be luckly. I have seen it happen too often in EVE to believe in luck.
And as far as a better way that has also been suggested to CCP for three plus (3+) years. If, as the current t2 BPO owners say, the T2 items are so hard to produce would that not be the regulating factor? Really, in this Game if all the T2 BPOs were put on the market at 1000% higer cost than their T1 counterparts what would the actual results be?
Yes it would hurt a very few players, that did not work or train for it, who happend to get "lucky" but would it hurt the other 99% of the player base? I dare say it would greatly improve the game in ways to obvious to point out.
Yes there will be the counter arguements of "then i could not print ungodly amount of isk" and "Then I would have to actually fight players in t2 ships so my Pownage would be affected" but those arguments only affect you, not the other 99% of the player base.
Exactly my point.
And to the guy that says tech 2 is a luxury item, you must be joking. Imperial apoc is a luxury item, a ship that cost 17m to build is not. And you DO NEED tech 2 to keep the edge when fighting the TECH 2 GODS, go fight BoB with tech 1 and tell me what will happen, you can win some fights but you won't win the war, and believe me it's not just skill. If you lose a sniping thron as example the guns alone cost 130m, they will just take a batch out of prodution that costs like 1m each, do you mean to tell me tech 2 is al luxury item for anyone not in bob, right?
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MuadChef
Amarr
Fate.
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Posted - 2006.12.28 18:10:00 -
[57]
To the OP:
Tech 2 items are a luxury item. You dont need them to function within Eve, but for the most they can and are used by many to cover what could be described as "holes" in peoples game play.
You could for example try to adapt your game play to compensate for the cost of tech 2 items. Personally I have no income what so ever, but manage to fly tech 2 ships with tech 2 items due to killing people in large alliances who are for the most inexperienced, yet due to their presence in that alliance have access to financial / industrial resources that give them the ability to use such items.
At the end of the day, the way Eve works is different for every single player. Whilst some systems are bugged and may not be to everyones liking, that is what makes it challenging at times and is also what makes it enjoyable to play.
Fate Corp |
Soulita
Gallente
Inner Core
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Posted - 2006.12.28 18:26:00 -
[58]
Edited by: Soulita on 28/12/2006 18:37:44
Edited by: Soulita on 28/12/2006 18:29:27
Originally by: Tachy
Originally by: Soulita
[...]
Very simple, give me your t2 BPOs, I will take care of them.
And inactive t2 BPOs? Probably from peeps who quit the game or from peeps who have more then 1 type of t2 BPO and dont put the less profitable ones in production to drive prices up.
Any other sane person who has a t2 BPO, and be it only an ammo one, would sell it if she/he doesnt want to produce from it.
And for most normal players, the 1 bil minimum you get for it is a lot of isk. Probably not for you Tachy, probably you have lost all orientation on whats a lot of isk and whats not.
Have a nice day.
Thank you for your concern, but I think I will keep my BPO. At least you never know what ccp will change next.
And when they balance T2 ammo the next time, I'll already have a nice stack of ammo right there.
I know quite a couple of BPO that are sitting idle because the BPO owners built a stack or two and the market doesn't require a constant supply.
Thats an honest post. See, I have no problems with t2 producers. Most know what to do with their t2 BPOs and if someone does not, she/he sells them for a nice amount of isk.
The problem in my opinion is not the producers, it is the system used to distribute the t2 BPOs.
Please dont argue against some t2 BPOs being in fact "i win buttons". Not all are, no, but some.
CCP giving out "i win buttons" on random (and we as players can not even know if it realy is random) to a very small percentage of the eve-population, leaving out the risk vs reward principle completely, makes many eve-players angry.
Faction and officer drops are completely different. With the system used to distribute those I have no problems. Works pretty well if you ask me. And no, I do not complex run. Still, that system has a valid logic to it. Complexes are resources, and they are fought over and need to be protected by their "owners". So risk vs reward applies at least to a certain degree.
This shows it is doable to combine access to high profit mods/ships with the risk vs reward principle that EVE usually uses. In turn, it is completely beyond my comprehension why CCP has no intention of fixing the broken t2 system. They could if they wanted to.
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Nimie
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Posted - 2006.12.28 18:28:00 -
[59]
t2 items are a luxury item. they are a top of the line item for corps and alliances to use in war. no other high quality item can be gain in numbers like t2 items can. if bob or whatever alliance are beating you with t2 items, than they should be. they are older and better than you. a corp has a pvp side and an industrial side. if your industrial side is young and weak, don't expect to fight on the same quality as someone with a good industrial side.
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tiller
MAFIA
Pirate Coalition
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Posted - 2006.12.28 18:38:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Nimie
t2 items are a luxury item. they are a top of the line item for corps and alliances to use in war. no other high quality item can be gain in numbers like t2 items can. if bob or whatever alliance are beating you with t2 items, than they should be. they are older and better than you. a corp has a pvp side and an industrial side. if your industrial side is young and weak, don't expect to fight on the same quality as someone with a good industrial side.
this man speaks the truth, everyone else, you are wrong
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Soulita
Gallente
Inner Core
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Posted - 2006.12.28 18:45:00 -
[61]
Edited by: Soulita on 28/12/2006 18:47:55
Originally by: tiller
Originally by: Nimie
t2 items are a luxury item. they are a top of the line item for corps and alliances to use in war. no other high quality item can be gain in numbers like t2 items can. if bob or whatever alliance are beating you with t2 items, than they should be. they are older and better than you. a corp has a pvp side and an industrial side. if your industrial side is young and weak, don't expect to fight on the same quality as someone with a good industrial side.
this man speaks the truth, everyone else, you are wrong
ROFL, good one. 
But NO, the two of you are wrong, and everybody else is right
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Ishmael Hansen
No Quarter.
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Posted - 2006.12.28 18:55:00 -
[62]
Originally by: tiller
Originally by: Nimie
t2 items are a luxury item. they are a top of the line item for corps and alliances to use in war. no other high quality item can be gain in numbers like t2 items can. if bob or whatever alliance are beating you with t2 items, than they should be. they are older and better than you. a corp has a pvp side and an industrial side. if your industrial side is young and weak, don't expect to fight on the same quality as someone with a good industrial side.
this man speaks the truth, everyone else, you are wrong
Not fighting bob atm, but that's not the point. That is just crap, the fact that they win every atrition war is not due to the industrial side, they don't even need an industrial side, they just need to sit up their alt's in empire selling tech 2 while providing their mains with free items. They can pvp 23/7 while every other corp has to dedicate valuable resources to prodution. But that's not even my problem, my problem is that some corps/players "randomly" won a fair huge amount of bpo's, the ones they didn't, well it's easy to buy all the others with the insane amount of isk theirs do. Where in hell do you hear people winning the lotery 5 times in a row, that is some lucky sob.
R&D is expecting to be fixed since I started playing eve 2 and half years ago, every other mean to make any kind of good isk been nerfed to hell due to constant whines, look at lvl 4's, invention is a carrot ccp was waving at us just to **** people up, or do you think they will "fix" it, most likely it will start needing an item that will drop once in a full moon or twice a day at the 10/10 in bob's home system.
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Nimie
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Posted - 2006.12.28 19:06:00 -
[63]
in order for bob's alts to sit in empire making money off t2 bpos, they needed to win those bpos in the one in a million chance or earn them with corp money or so. regardless of what you may like to think, there is no special rule that bob's rp tickets are worth 3x as everyone's else. if bob has more than the normal amount of bpos over what you normally win, it's because they earned them.
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Ishmael Hansen
No Quarter.
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Posted - 2006.12.28 19:11:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Nimie
in order for bob's alts to sit in empire making money off t2 bpos, they needed to win those bpos in the one in a million chance or earn them with corp money or so. regardless of what you may like to think, there is no special rule that bob's rp tickets are worth 3x as everyone's else. if bob has more than the normal amount of bpos over what you normally win, it's because they earned them.
Not only the lotery is a bad system it's randomness is somewhat fubered. btw, do you have new sigs?
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Megadon
Caldari
Deathshead Inc.
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Posted - 2006.12.28 19:17:00 -
[65]
The one area of the game ccp really sucks ass is tech 2. They botched this unfortunately.
I think they'll tweak it slowly over time to improve the situation however.
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Ishmael Hansen
No Quarter.
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Posted - 2006.12.28 19:23:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Megadon
The one area of the game ccp really sucks ass is tech 2. They botched this unfortunately.
I think they'll tweak it slowly over time to improve the situation however.
been waiting for 2 years and half, even before the hacs and shinny ships came in
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Nimie
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Posted - 2006.12.28 19:36:00 -
[67]
Edited by: Nimie on 28/12/2006 19:48:29
Originally by: Ishmael Hansen
Not only the lotery is a bad system it's randomness is somewhat fubered. btw, do you have new sigs?
fubered into bob's view? do you belive in weird conspiracies too?
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pony2slow
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Posted - 2006.12.28 19:45:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Ishmael Hansen
Originally by: tiller
Originally by: Nimie
t2 items are a luxury item. they are a top of the line item for corps and alliances to use in war. no other high quality item can be gain in numbers like t2 items can. if bob or whatever alliance are beating you with t2 items, than they should be. they are older and better than you. a corp has a pvp side and an industrial side. if your industrial side is young and weak, don't expect to fight on the same quality as someone with a good industrial side.
this man speaks the truth, everyone else, you are wrong
Not fighting bob atm, but that's not the point. That is just crap, the fact that they win every atrition war is not due to the industrial side, they don't even need an industrial side, they just need to sit up their alt's in empire selling tech 2 while providing their mains with free items. They can pvp 23/7 while every other corp has to dedicate valuable resources to prodution. But that's not even my problem, my problem is that some corps/players "randomly" won a fair huge amount of bpo's, the ones they didn't, well it's easy to buy all the others with the insane amount of isk theirs do. Where in hell do you hear people winning the lotery 5 times in a row, that is some lucky sob.
R&D is expecting to be fixed since I started playing eve 2 and half years ago, every other mean to make any kind of good isk been nerfed to hell due to constant whines, look at lvl 4's, invention is a carrot ccp was waving at us just to **** people up, or do you think they will "fix" it, most likely it will start needing an item that will drop once in a full moon or twice a day at the 10/10 in bob's home system.
I bolded the part you really need to rethink.
We do what we do cause we have the number 1 top of the line Industry to back us. Its not a huge surprise that we take every aspect of this game and use it to our full potential. But no you just wanna complain about something that IS broke and HAS been broke since the beginning.
Why dont you find one of the hundreds of threads on this topic and reply to that one instead of showing your ignorance in your own. Since you obvisously dont know how it works other than telling us the ONE and ONLY thing that everyone in THIS GAME ALREADY KNOWS>
The tech2 lottery is a joke always had been its way to late for CCP to do ANYTHING about it.
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John Blackthorn
Foundation
R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2006.12.28 20:30:00 -
[69]
Another issue is that if a cerberus producer put ten ships up for 50m each the first person that saw it would buy all 10 ships. Then put the 10 ships back on the market for 250M.
Actually I've seen people put up a t2 item, and be bought up several times and resold at higher price. 50M put back up at 70M bought up again back at 90m.. etc etc.
The only way to get a t2 ship at a decent price is to know a person with the bpo and order it and wait for it to be delivered.... There use to be several orgaizations that did this but they got swamped.. I know at naga at one time the lead time to get a particular ship i wanted was like a year... last i saw they stoped taking orders.
-John
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Soulita
Gallente
Inner Core
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Posted - 2006.12.28 20:45:00 -
[70]
Edited by: Soulita on 28/12/2006 20:48:26
Originally by: pony2slow
The tech2 lottery is a joke always had been its way to late for CCP to do ANYTHING about it.
I agree with the first part, but i dont agree with the second part.
Afaik invention was never intended to fix the t2 lottery. To me it seems much more like it was just implemented to quiet the unhappy masses. I had that opinion before invention ever hit TQ, in fact it seemed quiet clear by the official posts about it far before it was implemented.
But I dont want to get into discussing invention here, there is enough threads about it already.
The point is CCP can still do something to fix the t2 lottery if they want to. Invention could have been a solution.
To fix the t2 lottery system a way for people to create or get t2 BPO originals other then through the lottery would have to be implemented.
There is many ideas revolving around how this could be done.
My personal opinion is that whatever process would be chosen it should involve the risk vs reward principle.
Research complexes might be an idea. These could be battled over, and would add further value to holding certain territories.
But this is just one idea. CCP has a lot of creative heads, and so does the eve-playerbase. We could come up with a good way to improve the t2 distribution problem, I am certain of that.
The real question is if CCP wants to change the current situation, not if it can be done.
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Megadon
Caldari
Deathshead Inc.
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Posted - 2006.12.28 20:46:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Ishmael Hansen
Originally by: Megadon
The one area of the game ccp really sucks ass is tech 2. They botched this unfortunately.
I think they'll tweak it slowly over time to improve the situation however.
been waiting for 2 years and half, even before the hacs and shinny ships came in
Yeah, that's why I'm laughing.
It will never happen.
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Eralus
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Posted - 2006.12.28 20:57:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Soulita
To fix the t2 lottery system a way for people to create or get t2 BPO originals other then through the lottery would have to be implemented.
Alternatively, CCP could turn all the current BPOs into BPCs, use the same lottery system we already have to give out BPCs on a regular basis, and then never issue another T2 BPO again.
Hell, even if they just started giving out BPCs on a regular basis with the same lottery system that would be a drastic improvement.
What I think would be especially cool is if there were a limited number of BPCs awarded per month, and you had to bid LP for them. An individual researcher might earn X LP per month, but researchers organized into teams get bonuses, and researchers organized into teams with the proper equipment get even more bonuses, much like you get bonuses for warfare link modules and leadership skills now. Throw some consumables in there to keep it from being farmed too bad.
Then the corps who have the best, most efficient research teams have the most LP to bid for BPCs. Big corps get lots of BPCs, small corps get a smaller number of BPCs, everybody gets to profit according to their skill/teamwork.
I agree that T2 should be rare. But there are better ways for T2 to be rare that don't have the majority of the player base slaving away to buy T2 off of a few lucky BPO holders. Even paying an NPC 230 mil for the Cerberus would be better.
_____
Lifewire is a big, ugly, mean... carebear. |
Eralus
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Posted - 2006.12.28 21:01:00 -
[73]
Edited by: Eralus on 28/12/2006 21:03:22
Originally by: tiller
it should only be used by the more well off people in eve.
I have not been happy seeing t2 drop to prices where everyone uses it...
Well, there's an easy way to fix that.
Destroy all the T2 BPOs and have all T2 production be done through the current invention system.
That should restore the rarity of T2 right quick.
That said, I fully support using the current invention system for T3 production, as long as NO T3 BPOs are seeded ever, and no T2 items are required.
_____
Lifewire is a big, ugly, mean... carebear. |
Winters Chill
Amarr
Ministry of War
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Posted - 2006.12.28 21:21:00 -
[74]
Originally by: XRay Blue
Get it: Eve is a highly capitalistic game, not a communistic. IŠll never understand why some folks think that producers in Eve arenŠt allowed to earn money.
QFT
Seriously, its comnmon in most mmo forums. MMO Companys are often accused of being "greedy" when they put in new content that the complainer does not agree with, indeed they are also accused of the same if they don't put enough in.
IMHO its the mmo consumer equivilent of saying "jurr mama" or "learn to play". Its an annoying unimaginative soundbite that clumsily and childishly attempts to provoke a response.
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Earthan
Gallente
The Amazing Fire Eaters
Breidablik
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Posted - 2006.12.28 23:18:00 -
[75]
are you stupid or just pretending?
poeple complain because :
1-t2 bpos are inifinte fortunes given to rare few wich is stupid.ITs random its ok but should be limited run bpcs given on regular baisis so its much more distributed , then normal market laws would work.Much much mor epoeple would earn a few isks but it would be only for short time.
2- If invention doesnt work, you dont have as in RL a possiblity to come up with somethign similar that breaks monopoply , as awlys in rl happned.( coca cola - pepsi cola, atom bomb in us , in sviet union etc.)
The Amazing Fire Eaters webpage
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Shimarra
Caldari
AWE Corporation
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.12.28 23:19:00 -
[76]
Well, many people have the mistaken belief that tech 2 is supposed to be a sort of high standard. Were that the case, I beleive CCP would have already begun progressive seeding of tech II, ie, a continual seeding of all bpos to slowly fill the market to full saturation. CCP acts in this case as the "act-of-god" factor. I severely doubt CCP is catering to the bpo holders, as they are still actively trying to gain market-share. The concept of a limited market is a new idea in modern MMO philosophy, as it creates a class of "haves" and "have nots" within the economic market. This is what I beleive we're seeing on the forums.
tl;dr
Everyone's jealous because they can't make money. Move along.
Shim
--------------------------
"oh lawd! is zat sum arkanor?!"
-------------------------- |
Ishmael Hansen
No Quarter.
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Posted - 2006.12.29 00:03:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Shimarra
Well, many people have the mistaken belief that tech 2 is supposed to be a sort of high standard. Were that the case, I beleive CCP would have already begun progressive seeding of tech II, ie, a continual seeding of all bpos to slowly fill the market to full saturation. CCP acts in this case as the "act-of-god" factor. I severely doubt CCP is catering to the bpo holders, as they are still actively trying to gain market-share. The concept of a limited market is a new idea in modern MMO philosophy, as it creates a class of "haves" and "have nots" within the economic market. This is what I beleive we're seeing on the forums.
tl;dr
Everyone's jealous because they can't make money. Move along.
Actually I'm not jealous I can't make a fortune, I just wanna fit my ship with tech 2 guns without having to sell my kidney.
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Nimie
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Posted - 2006.12.29 00:36:00 -
[78]
if you are having problems with money, consider recuiting a good industrialist in order to help you make money. you could also do something like goonfleet but use cruisers or something to make up for lost numbers. have everyone spend some time helping your corp make money and buy some t2 bpos, and with your own eyes, day by day your corp will be able to use t2 stuff easier. it'll give you an advantage against new corps still using t1 stuff, but i'll be a little more before you could deal with bob.
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Shimarra
Caldari
AWE Corporation
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.12.29 00:36:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Ishmael Hansen
Originally by: Shimarra
Well, many people have the mistaken belief that tech 2 is supposed to be a sort of high standard. Were that the case, I beleive CCP would have already begun progressive seeding of tech II, ie, a continual seeding of all bpos to slowly fill the market to full saturation. CCP acts in this case as the "act-of-god" factor. I severely doubt CCP is catering to the bpo holders, as they are still actively trying to gain market-share. The concept of a limited market is a new idea in modern MMO philosophy, as it creates a class of "haves" and "have nots" within the economic market. This is what I beleive we're seeing on the forums.
tl;dr
Everyone's jealous because they can't make money. Move along.
Actually I'm not jealous I can't make a fortune, I just wanna fit my ship with tech 2 guns without having to sell my kidney.
Well, you're going to have to pay a premium to fit a rarer, more powerful weapon. If it's feasable, do so. If not, find more income or husband your existing resources to a greater extent
Shim
--------------------------
"oh lawd! is zat sum arkanor?!"
-------------------------- |
Phyrr
Minmatar
The Gosimer and Scarab
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Posted - 2006.12.29 00:40:00 -
[80]
Edited by: Phyrr on 29/12/2006 00:40:08
Originally by: Ishmael Hansen
Originally by: Nimie
in order for bob's alts to sit in empire making money off t2 bpos, they needed to win those bpos in the one in a million chance or earn them with corp money or so. regardless of what you may like to think, there is no special rule that bob's rp tickets are worth 3x as everyone's else. if bob has more than the normal amount of bpos over what you normally win, it's because they earned them.
Not only the lotery is a bad system it's randomness is somewhat fubered. btw, do you have new sigs?
bitter people make me 
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Earthan
Gallente
The Amazing Fire Eaters
Breidablik
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Posted - 2006.12.29 01:16:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Nimie
in order for bob's alts to sit in empire making money off t2 bpos, they needed to win those bpos in the one in a million chance or earn them with corp money or so. regardless of what you may like to think, there is no special rule that bob's rp tickets are worth 3x as everyone's else. if bob has more than the normal amount of bpos over what you normally win, it's because they earned them.
Good point only it was to easy imho for bob to do it, cause there was to few t2 bpo on market and tottaly unlike in rl , no chances of breaking the monoploy by inventing something similar.The reverse engeenering sounds like a nice way of solving it but from what i hear it isnt in practice any good.
So in the end we got a tottaly unrealsitic situation, one group of player monopolize the market , ahving attained it with realtive ease.
In rl no monopoly can last for to long.Poeple will invent similar things to substitute and will break it.Not possible in eve and thats why we need something to balance it.
The Amazing Fire Eaters webpage
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sakana
Purgatorial Janitors Inc.
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Posted - 2006.12.29 01:40:00 -
[82]
supply < demand
------------
Master Of Puppets |
Zeke Novak
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Posted - 2006.12.29 02:01:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Nimie
t2 items are a luxury item. they are a top of the line item for corps and alliances to use in war. no other high quality item can be gain in numbers like t2 items can. if bob or whatever alliance are beating you with t2 items, than they should be. they are older and better than you. a corp has a pvp side and an industrial side. if your industrial side is young and weak, don't expect to fight on the same quality as someone with a good industrial side.
The problem is that even if an alliance develops a mature industrial base, they still cannot gain the ability to produce some T2 items that are arguable essential to fight the alliances that do have them. I don't think anyone who has a HAC BPO is going to sell it to the upstart alliance with a strong industrial base, especially if said upstart alliance is also their competitor.
There has to be a way for additional producers to enter the market, and right now, it just doesn't exist in a way that allows them to compete effectively, if at all.
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Tousaka Langley
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Posted - 2006.12.29 02:29:00 -
[84]
Edited by: Tousaka Langley on 29/12/2006 02:31:03
Edited by: Tousaka Langley on 29/12/2006 02:29:53
Edited by: Tousaka Langley on 29/12/2006 02:29:06
I find it funny that people are ignoring re sellers. Even if one or two t2 producers WANTED to release HAC's cheap, traders and other BPO owners would buy them and mark them up.
It is really ******* hard to dislodge a system that deeply in place. Only major changes to the balance of the game would have an effect (Tier 2 BC's did that.) Invention, even if it worked, would allow players to build themselves ship on the low low. But they would be resold on the high high. If a Cerb costs 30 mil to make and sells for 200 mil, invention would have to more the septuple (is that a word?) the amount of units available, with all inventors wanting to sell low, until it becomes unfeesable for current BPO owners to just buy them up. But that just makes the owner richer, doesn't it.
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Nimie
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Posted - 2006.12.29 03:18:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Zeke Novak
Originally by: Nimie
t2 items are a luxury item. they are a top of the line item for corps and alliances to use in war. no other high quality item can be gain in numbers like t2 items can. if bob or whatever alliance are beating you with t2 items, than they should be. they are older and better than you. a corp has a pvp side and an industrial side. if your industrial side is young and weak, don't expect to fight on the same quality as someone with a good industrial side.
The problem is that even if an alliance develops a mature industrial base, they still cannot gain the ability to produce some T2 items that are arguable essential to fight the alliances that do have them. I don't think anyone who has a HAC BPO is going to sell it to the upstart alliance with a strong industrial base, especially if said upstart alliance is also their competitor.
There has to be a way for additional producers to enter the market, and right now, it just doesn't exist in a way that allows them to compete effectively, if at all.
even if i don't have the greatest of knowledge in 0.0 warfare, i don't think eve is the type of game where there is only one way to win a war or there are no counters to another corp's strategy. with fully insured ships, a single lost could cost you 30m, but for your opponents it would cost 300m. i'm pretty sure there are ways to win this. i could be wrong though but i don't think so. with the tools that don't have huge markup, i think you should be able to win it.
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Martinez
Federation of Freedom Fighters
Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2006.12.29 13:43:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Eralus
Originally by: Soulita
To fix the t2 lottery system a way for people to create or get t2 BPO originals other then through the lottery would have to be implemented.
Alternatively, CCP could turn all the current BPOs into BPCs, use the same lottery system we already have to give out BPCs on a regular basis, and then never issue another T2 BPO again.
Hell, even if they just started giving out BPCs on a regular basis with the same lottery system that would be a drastic improvement.
What I think would be especially cool is if there were a limited number of BPCs awarded per month, and you had to bid LP for them. An individual researcher might earn X LP per month, but researchers organized into teams get bonuses, and researchers organized into teams with the proper equipment get even more bonuses, much like you get bonuses for warfare link modules and leadership skills now. Throw some consumables in there to keep it from being farmed too bad.
Then the corps who have the best, most efficient research teams have the most LP to bid for BPCs. Big corps get lots of BPCs, small corps get a smaller number of BPCs, everybody gets to profit according to their skill/teamwork.
I agree that T2 should be rare. But there are better ways for T2 to be rare that don't have the majority of the player base slaving away to buy T2 off of a few lucky BPO holders. Even paying an NPC 230 mil for the Cerberus would be better.
With putting bpc out you have two problems, 1) a non consistant supply. most people, alot in this thread it seems have no clue what it takes to produce t2 ships. It is not something that is done easily overnight. 2) You flood the market with bpcs, supply is too great turning t2 market into t1 market. Neither of these things are good for eve.
If t2 ships drop to the prices the OP wants then there will be no more demand for t1. That is not good for anyone. T2 is a luxury, not the standard, and it shouldnt be at least until t3 comes out.
This thread should be locked due to the amount of tears shead by whinners. Let ccp finish seeding the new bpos. Then start this thread up again. EVERYONE OVER 1 MONTH IN EVE HAS HAD A CHANCE TO GET A T2 BPO. IF YOU CHOOSE NOT TO DO THE RESEARCH AGENT THAT IS YOUR FAULT!!!!!
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