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Soulita
Gallente
Inner Core
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Posted - 2006.12.28 18:45:00 -
[61]
Edited by: Soulita on 28/12/2006 18:47:55
 Originally by: tiller
Originally by: Nimie
t2 items are a luxury item. they are a top of the line item for corps and alliances to use in war. no other high quality item can be gain in numbers like t2 items can. if bob or whatever alliance are beating you with t2 items, than they should be. they are older and better than you. a corp has a pvp side and an industrial side. if your industrial side is young and weak, don't expect to fight on the same quality as someone with a good industrial side.
this man speaks the truth, everyone else, you are wrong 
ROFL, good one. 
But NO, the two of you are wrong, and everybody else is right
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Ishmael Hansen
No Quarter.
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Posted - 2006.12.28 18:55:00 -
[62]
Originally by: tiller
Originally by: Nimie
t2 items are a luxury item. they are a top of the line item for corps and alliances to use in war. no other high quality item can be gain in numbers like t2 items can. if bob or whatever alliance are beating you with t2 items, than they should be. they are older and better than you. a corp has a pvp side and an industrial side. if your industrial side is young and weak, don't expect to fight on the same quality as someone with a good industrial side.
this man speaks the truth, everyone else, you are wrong
Not fighting bob atm, but that's not the point. That is just crap, the fact that they win every atrition war is not due to the industrial side, they don't even need an industrial side, they just need to sit up their alt's in empire selling tech 2 while providing their mains with free items. They can pvp 23/7 while every other corp has to dedicate valuable resources to prodution. But that's not even my problem, my problem is that some corps/players "randomly" won a fair huge amount of bpo's, the ones they didn't, well it's easy to buy all the others with the insane amount of isk theirs do. Where in hell do you hear people winning the lotery 5 times in a row, that is some lucky sob.
R&D is expecting to be fixed since I started playing eve 2 and half years ago, every other mean to make any kind of good isk been nerfed to hell due to constant whines, look at lvl 4's, invention is a carrot ccp was waving at us just to **** people up, or do you think they will "fix" it, most likely it will start needing an item that will drop once in a full moon or twice a day at the 10/10 in bob's home system.
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Nimie
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Posted - 2006.12.28 19:06:00 -
[63]
in order for bob's alts to sit in empire making money off t2 bpos, they needed to win those bpos in the one in a million chance or earn them with corp money or so. regardless of what you may like to think, there is no special rule that bob's rp tickets are worth 3x as everyone's else. if bob has more than the normal amount of bpos over what you normally win, it's because they earned them.
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Ishmael Hansen
No Quarter.
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Posted - 2006.12.28 19:11:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Nimie
in order for bob's alts to sit in empire making money off t2 bpos, they needed to win those bpos in the one in a million chance or earn them with corp money or so. regardless of what you may like to think, there is no special rule that bob's rp tickets are worth 3x as everyone's else. if bob has more than the normal amount of bpos over what you normally win, it's because they earned them.
Not only the lotery is a bad system it's randomness is somewhat fubered. btw, do you have new sigs?
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Megadon
Caldari
Deathshead Inc.
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Posted - 2006.12.28 19:17:00 -
[65]
The one area of the game ccp really sucks ass is tech 2. They botched this unfortunately.
I think they'll tweak it slowly over time to improve the situation however.
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Ishmael Hansen
No Quarter.
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Posted - 2006.12.28 19:23:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Megadon
The one area of the game ccp really sucks ass is tech 2. They botched this unfortunately.
I think they'll tweak it slowly over time to improve the situation however.
been waiting for 2 years and half, even before the hacs and shinny ships came in
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Nimie
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Posted - 2006.12.28 19:36:00 -
[67]
Edited by: Nimie on 28/12/2006 19:48:29
Originally by: Ishmael Hansen
Not only the lotery is a bad system it's randomness is somewhat fubered. btw, do you have new sigs?
fubered into bob's view? do you belive in weird conspiracies too?
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pony2slow
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Posted - 2006.12.28 19:45:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Ishmael Hansen
Originally by: tiller
Originally by: Nimie
t2 items are a luxury item. they are a top of the line item for corps and alliances to use in war. no other high quality item can be gain in numbers like t2 items can. if bob or whatever alliance are beating you with t2 items, than they should be. they are older and better than you. a corp has a pvp side and an industrial side. if your industrial side is young and weak, don't expect to fight on the same quality as someone with a good industrial side.
this man speaks the truth, everyone else, you are wrong
Not fighting bob atm, but that's not the point. That is just crap, the fact that they win every atrition war is not due to the industrial side, they don't even need an industrial side, they just need to sit up their alt's in empire selling tech 2 while providing their mains with free items. They can pvp 23/7 while every other corp has to dedicate valuable resources to prodution. But that's not even my problem, my problem is that some corps/players "randomly" won a fair huge amount of bpo's, the ones they didn't, well it's easy to buy all the others with the insane amount of isk theirs do. Where in hell do you hear people winning the lotery 5 times in a row, that is some lucky sob.
R&D is expecting to be fixed since I started playing eve 2 and half years ago, every other mean to make any kind of good isk been nerfed to hell due to constant whines, look at lvl 4's, invention is a carrot ccp was waving at us just to **** people up, or do you think they will "fix" it, most likely it will start needing an item that will drop once in a full moon or twice a day at the 10/10 in bob's home system.
I bolded the part you really need to rethink.
We do what we do cause we have the number 1 top of the line Industry to back us. Its not a huge surprise that we take every aspect of this game and use it to our full potential. But no you just wanna complain about something that IS broke and HAS been broke since the beginning.
Why dont you find one of the hundreds of threads on this topic and reply to that one instead of showing your ignorance in your own. Since you obvisously dont know how it works other than telling us the ONE and ONLY thing that everyone in THIS GAME ALREADY KNOWS>
The tech2 lottery is a joke always had been its way to late for CCP to do ANYTHING about it.
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John Blackthorn
Foundation
R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2006.12.28 20:30:00 -
[69]
Another issue is that if a cerberus producer put ten ships up for 50m each the first person that saw it would buy all 10 ships. Then put the 10 ships back on the market for 250M.
Actually I've seen people put up a t2 item, and be bought up several times and resold at higher price. 50M put back up at 70M bought up again back at 90m.. etc etc.
The only way to get a t2 ship at a decent price is to know a person with the bpo and order it and wait for it to be delivered.... There use to be several orgaizations that did this but they got swamped.. I know at naga at one time the lead time to get a particular ship i wanted was like a year... last i saw they stoped taking orders.
-John
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Soulita
Gallente
Inner Core
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Posted - 2006.12.28 20:45:00 -
[70]
Edited by: Soulita on 28/12/2006 20:48:26
Originally by: pony2slow
The tech2 lottery is a joke always had been its way to late for CCP to do ANYTHING about it.
I agree with the first part, but i dont agree with the second part.
Afaik invention was never intended to fix the t2 lottery. To me it seems much more like it was just implemented to quiet the unhappy masses. I had that opinion before invention ever hit TQ, in fact it seemed quiet clear by the official posts about it far before it was implemented.
But I dont want to get into discussing invention here, there is enough threads about it already.
The point is CCP can still do something to fix the t2 lottery if they want to. Invention could have been a solution.
To fix the t2 lottery system a way for people to create or get t2 BPO originals other then through the lottery would have to be implemented.
There is many ideas revolving around how this could be done.
My personal opinion is that whatever process would be chosen it should involve the risk vs reward principle.
Research complexes might be an idea. These could be battled over, and would add further value to holding certain territories.
But this is just one idea. CCP has a lot of creative heads, and so does the eve-playerbase. We could come up with a good way to improve the t2 distribution problem, I am certain of that.
The real question is if CCP wants to change the current situation, not if it can be done.
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Megadon
Caldari
Deathshead Inc.
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Posted - 2006.12.28 20:46:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Ishmael Hansen
Originally by: Megadon
The one area of the game ccp really sucks ass is tech 2. They botched this unfortunately.
I think they'll tweak it slowly over time to improve the situation however.
been waiting for 2 years and half, even before the hacs and shinny ships came in
Yeah, that's why I'm laughing.
It will never happen.
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Eralus
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Posted - 2006.12.28 20:57:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Soulita
To fix the t2 lottery system a way for people to create or get t2 BPO originals other then through the lottery would have to be implemented.
Alternatively, CCP could turn all the current BPOs into BPCs, use the same lottery system we already have to give out BPCs on a regular basis, and then never issue another T2 BPO again.
Hell, even if they just started giving out BPCs on a regular basis with the same lottery system that would be a drastic improvement.
What I think would be especially cool is if there were a limited number of BPCs awarded per month, and you had to bid LP for them. An individual researcher might earn X LP per month, but researchers organized into teams get bonuses, and researchers organized into teams with the proper equipment get even more bonuses, much like you get bonuses for warfare link modules and leadership skills now. Throw some consumables in there to keep it from being farmed too bad.
Then the corps who have the best, most efficient research teams have the most LP to bid for BPCs. Big corps get lots of BPCs, small corps get a smaller number of BPCs, everybody gets to profit according to their skill/teamwork.
I agree that T2 should be rare. But there are better ways for T2 to be rare that don't have the majority of the player base slaving away to buy T2 off of a few lucky BPO holders. Even paying an NPC 230 mil for the Cerberus would be better.
_____
Lifewire is a big, ugly, mean... carebear. |
Eralus
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Posted - 2006.12.28 21:01:00 -
[73]
Edited by: Eralus on 28/12/2006 21:03:22
Originally by: tiller
it should only be used by the more well off people in eve.
I have not been happy seeing t2 drop to prices where everyone uses it...
Well, there's an easy way to fix that.
Destroy all the T2 BPOs and have all T2 production be done through the current invention system.
That should restore the rarity of T2 right quick.
That said, I fully support using the current invention system for T3 production, as long as NO T3 BPOs are seeded ever, and no T2 items are required.
_____
Lifewire is a big, ugly, mean... carebear. |
Winters Chill
Amarr
Ministry of War
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Posted - 2006.12.28 21:21:00 -
[74]
Originally by: XRay Blue
Get it: Eve is a highly capitalistic game, not a communistic. IŠll never understand why some folks think that producers in Eve arenŠt allowed to earn money.
QFT
Seriously, its comnmon in most mmo forums. MMO Companys are often accused of being "greedy" when they put in new content that the complainer does not agree with, indeed they are also accused of the same if they don't put enough in.
IMHO its the mmo consumer equivilent of saying "jurr mama" or "learn to play". Its an annoying unimaginative soundbite that clumsily and childishly attempts to provoke a response.
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Earthan
Gallente
The Amazing Fire Eaters
Breidablik
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Posted - 2006.12.28 23:18:00 -
[75]
are you stupid or just pretending?
poeple complain because :
1-t2 bpos are inifinte fortunes given to rare few wich is stupid.ITs random its ok but should be limited run bpcs given on regular baisis so its much more distributed , then normal market laws would work.Much much mor epoeple would earn a few isks but it would be only for short time.
2- If invention doesnt work, you dont have as in RL a possiblity to come up with somethign similar that breaks monopoply , as awlys in rl happned.( coca cola - pepsi cola, atom bomb in us , in sviet union etc.)
The Amazing Fire Eaters webpage
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Shimarra
Caldari
AWE Corporation
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.12.28 23:19:00 -
[76]
Well, many people have the mistaken belief that tech 2 is supposed to be a sort of high standard. Were that the case, I beleive CCP would have already begun progressive seeding of tech II, ie, a continual seeding of all bpos to slowly fill the market to full saturation. CCP acts in this case as the "act-of-god" factor. I severely doubt CCP is catering to the bpo holders, as they are still actively trying to gain market-share. The concept of a limited market is a new idea in modern MMO philosophy, as it creates a class of "haves" and "have nots" within the economic market. This is what I beleive we're seeing on the forums.
tl;dr
Everyone's jealous because they can't make money. Move along.
Shim
--------------------------
"oh lawd! is zat sum arkanor?!"
-------------------------- |
Ishmael Hansen
No Quarter.
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Posted - 2006.12.29 00:03:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Shimarra
Well, many people have the mistaken belief that tech 2 is supposed to be a sort of high standard. Were that the case, I beleive CCP would have already begun progressive seeding of tech II, ie, a continual seeding of all bpos to slowly fill the market to full saturation. CCP acts in this case as the "act-of-god" factor. I severely doubt CCP is catering to the bpo holders, as they are still actively trying to gain market-share. The concept of a limited market is a new idea in modern MMO philosophy, as it creates a class of "haves" and "have nots" within the economic market. This is what I beleive we're seeing on the forums.
tl;dr
Everyone's jealous because they can't make money. Move along.
Actually I'm not jealous I can't make a fortune, I just wanna fit my ship with tech 2 guns without having to sell my kidney.
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Nimie
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Posted - 2006.12.29 00:36:00 -
[78]
if you are having problems with money, consider recuiting a good industrialist in order to help you make money. you could also do something like goonfleet but use cruisers or something to make up for lost numbers. have everyone spend some time helping your corp make money and buy some t2 bpos, and with your own eyes, day by day your corp will be able to use t2 stuff easier. it'll give you an advantage against new corps still using t1 stuff, but i'll be a little more before you could deal with bob.
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Shimarra
Caldari
AWE Corporation
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.12.29 00:36:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Ishmael Hansen
Originally by: Shimarra
Well, many people have the mistaken belief that tech 2 is supposed to be a sort of high standard. Were that the case, I beleive CCP would have already begun progressive seeding of tech II, ie, a continual seeding of all bpos to slowly fill the market to full saturation. CCP acts in this case as the "act-of-god" factor. I severely doubt CCP is catering to the bpo holders, as they are still actively trying to gain market-share. The concept of a limited market is a new idea in modern MMO philosophy, as it creates a class of "haves" and "have nots" within the economic market. This is what I beleive we're seeing on the forums.
tl;dr
Everyone's jealous because they can't make money. Move along.
Actually I'm not jealous I can't make a fortune, I just wanna fit my ship with tech 2 guns without having to sell my kidney.
Well, you're going to have to pay a premium to fit a rarer, more powerful weapon. If it's feasable, do so. If not, find more income or husband your existing resources to a greater extent
Shim
--------------------------
"oh lawd! is zat sum arkanor?!"
-------------------------- |
Phyrr
Minmatar
The Gosimer and Scarab
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Posted - 2006.12.29 00:40:00 -
[80]
Edited by: Phyrr on 29/12/2006 00:40:08
Originally by: Ishmael Hansen
Originally by: Nimie
in order for bob's alts to sit in empire making money off t2 bpos, they needed to win those bpos in the one in a million chance or earn them with corp money or so. regardless of what you may like to think, there is no special rule that bob's rp tickets are worth 3x as everyone's else. if bob has more than the normal amount of bpos over what you normally win, it's because they earned them.
Not only the lotery is a bad system it's randomness is somewhat fubered. btw, do you have new sigs?
bitter people make me 
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Earthan
Gallente
The Amazing Fire Eaters
Breidablik
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Posted - 2006.12.29 01:16:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Nimie
in order for bob's alts to sit in empire making money off t2 bpos, they needed to win those bpos in the one in a million chance or earn them with corp money or so. regardless of what you may like to think, there is no special rule that bob's rp tickets are worth 3x as everyone's else. if bob has more than the normal amount of bpos over what you normally win, it's because they earned them.
Good point only it was to easy imho for bob to do it, cause there was to few t2 bpo on market and tottaly unlike in rl , no chances of breaking the monoploy by inventing something similar.The reverse engeenering sounds like a nice way of solving it but from what i hear it isnt in practice any good.
So in the end we got a tottaly unrealsitic situation, one group of player monopolize the market , ahving attained it with realtive ease.
In rl no monopoly can last for to long.Poeple will invent similar things to substitute and will break it.Not possible in eve and thats why we need something to balance it.
The Amazing Fire Eaters webpage
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sakana
Purgatorial Janitors Inc.
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Posted - 2006.12.29 01:40:00 -
[82]
supply < demand
------------
Master Of Puppets |
Zeke Novak
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Posted - 2006.12.29 02:01:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Nimie
t2 items are a luxury item. they are a top of the line item for corps and alliances to use in war. no other high quality item can be gain in numbers like t2 items can. if bob or whatever alliance are beating you with t2 items, than they should be. they are older and better than you. a corp has a pvp side and an industrial side. if your industrial side is young and weak, don't expect to fight on the same quality as someone with a good industrial side.
The problem is that even if an alliance develops a mature industrial base, they still cannot gain the ability to produce some T2 items that are arguable essential to fight the alliances that do have them. I don't think anyone who has a HAC BPO is going to sell it to the upstart alliance with a strong industrial base, especially if said upstart alliance is also their competitor.
There has to be a way for additional producers to enter the market, and right now, it just doesn't exist in a way that allows them to compete effectively, if at all.
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Tousaka Langley
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Posted - 2006.12.29 02:29:00 -
[84]
Edited by: Tousaka Langley on 29/12/2006 02:31:03
Edited by: Tousaka Langley on 29/12/2006 02:29:53
Edited by: Tousaka Langley on 29/12/2006 02:29:06
I find it funny that people are ignoring re sellers. Even if one or two t2 producers WANTED to release HAC's cheap, traders and other BPO owners would buy them and mark them up.
It is really ******* hard to dislodge a system that deeply in place. Only major changes to the balance of the game would have an effect (Tier 2 BC's did that.) Invention, even if it worked, would allow players to build themselves ship on the low low. But they would be resold on the high high. If a Cerb costs 30 mil to make and sells for 200 mil, invention would have to more the septuple (is that a word?) the amount of units available, with all inventors wanting to sell low, until it becomes unfeesable for current BPO owners to just buy them up. But that just makes the owner richer, doesn't it.
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Nimie
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Posted - 2006.12.29 03:18:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Zeke Novak
Originally by: Nimie
t2 items are a luxury item. they are a top of the line item for corps and alliances to use in war. no other high quality item can be gain in numbers like t2 items can. if bob or whatever alliance are beating you with t2 items, than they should be. they are older and better than you. a corp has a pvp side and an industrial side. if your industrial side is young and weak, don't expect to fight on the same quality as someone with a good industrial side.
The problem is that even if an alliance develops a mature industrial base, they still cannot gain the ability to produce some T2 items that are arguable essential to fight the alliances that do have them. I don't think anyone who has a HAC BPO is going to sell it to the upstart alliance with a strong industrial base, especially if said upstart alliance is also their competitor.
There has to be a way for additional producers to enter the market, and right now, it just doesn't exist in a way that allows them to compete effectively, if at all.
even if i don't have the greatest of knowledge in 0.0 warfare, i don't think eve is the type of game where there is only one way to win a war or there are no counters to another corp's strategy. with fully insured ships, a single lost could cost you 30m, but for your opponents it would cost 300m. i'm pretty sure there are ways to win this. i could be wrong though but i don't think so. with the tools that don't have huge markup, i think you should be able to win it.
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Martinez
Federation of Freedom Fighters
Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2006.12.29 13:43:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Eralus
Originally by: Soulita
To fix the t2 lottery system a way for people to create or get t2 BPO originals other then through the lottery would have to be implemented.
Alternatively, CCP could turn all the current BPOs into BPCs, use the same lottery system we already have to give out BPCs on a regular basis, and then never issue another T2 BPO again.
Hell, even if they just started giving out BPCs on a regular basis with the same lottery system that would be a drastic improvement.
What I think would be especially cool is if there were a limited number of BPCs awarded per month, and you had to bid LP for them. An individual researcher might earn X LP per month, but researchers organized into teams get bonuses, and researchers organized into teams with the proper equipment get even more bonuses, much like you get bonuses for warfare link modules and leadership skills now. Throw some consumables in there to keep it from being farmed too bad.
Then the corps who have the best, most efficient research teams have the most LP to bid for BPCs. Big corps get lots of BPCs, small corps get a smaller number of BPCs, everybody gets to profit according to their skill/teamwork.
I agree that T2 should be rare. But there are better ways for T2 to be rare that don't have the majority of the player base slaving away to buy T2 off of a few lucky BPO holders. Even paying an NPC 230 mil for the Cerberus would be better.
With putting bpc out you have two problems, 1) a non consistant supply. most people, alot in this thread it seems have no clue what it takes to produce t2 ships. It is not something that is done easily overnight. 2) You flood the market with bpcs, supply is too great turning t2 market into t1 market. Neither of these things are good for eve.
If t2 ships drop to the prices the OP wants then there will be no more demand for t1. That is not good for anyone. T2 is a luxury, not the standard, and it shouldnt be at least until t3 comes out.
This thread should be locked due to the amount of tears shead by whinners. Let ccp finish seeding the new bpos. Then start this thread up again. EVERYONE OVER 1 MONTH IN EVE HAS HAD A CHANCE TO GET A T2 BPO. IF YOU CHOOSE NOT TO DO THE RESEARCH AGENT THAT IS YOUR FAULT!!!!!
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