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Eve and lag: KillerNIC

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Dmian Gallente Starline Engineering Corporation	Posted - 2006.12.31 11:58:00 - [1] Has any of you tryed a KillerNIC? KillerNIC homepage I've read that it may help some machines to have less lag, but, is it worth its price and a place in a slot? Regards.

Chribba Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire	Posted - 2006.12.31 12:00:00 - [2] imo that might be for the hardcore CS player, doubt you will see any change in eve. EVE-Files \| EVE-Search \| Monitor this Thread

Mitten Caldari Black Avatar Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.12.31 12:08:00 - [3] Originally by: Chribba imo that might be for the hardcore CS player, doubt you will see any change in eve. More likely for hardcore idiots. Wait for ds he'll explain
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.12.31 12:10:00 - [4] KillerNIC = Snake Oil, plain and simple. That's pretty much it. As by definition the network card only accounts for a few microseconds of ping time, a "faster one" won't help anything. Especially as the KillerNIC's drivers are so bad that they cut speed by 4 times in tests -[23] Member- Listen to EVE-Trance Radio! (DSTrance channel ingame)
Tachy	Posted - 2006.12.31 12:10:00 - [5] Snakeoil, fresh snakeoil! There are very few circumstances where you'll gain anything from something like that. Under most of those circumstances you'd be better off replacing your computer. In quite a few tests the thing actually cost people up to 40% of their network performance. --==*-- The cause for this is not yet known, but we do have a possible fix in testing. by Sharkbait \| 2006.09.20
Mitten Caldari Black Avatar Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.12.31 12:19:00 - [6] Edited by: Mitten on 31/12/2006 12:20:32 The world is coming to an end 2 people posting pretty much the same metaphor! 1 of them being DS, the end is nigh! the end is nigh! Edit: I'd also like to point out I predicted a DS post 2 minutes before it happend.
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.12.31 12:24:00 - [7] Originally by: Mitten Edit: I'd also like to point out I predicted a DS post 2 minutes before it happend. That isn't hard. -[23] Member- Listen to EVE-Trance Radio! (DSTrance channel ingame)
Agito Gravis	Posted - 2006.12.31 12:55:00 - [8] Originally by: Dark Shikari KillerNIC = Snake Oil, plain and simple. That's pretty much it. As by definition the network card only accounts for a few microseconds of ping time, a "faster one" won't help anything. Erm... no. That's not entirely true. A network card, and its drivers, also affect other resources. The idea behind the KillerNIC, as I understand it, is to reduce the usage of the CPU to free that up, as well as improve the efficiency of network communication. It may also account for significantly more than a few microseconds depending on the exact weight of the factors involved, just e.g. the game's own networking code, other traffic using the connection. The exact benefits you'd get, if any, would depend on the game. If it's CPU constrained, then freeing up more CPU for it would benefit it, obviously, and more so if its networking code is fairly intensive as well. (Of course, upgrading the CPU would give much the same benefits.) Originally by: Dark Shikari Especially as the KillerNIC's drivers are so bad that they cut speed by 4 times in tests What tests would these be? I tried quickly googling for a few, and the ones I find show what I'd expect - slight improvements. E.g. this one. Personally, I wouldn't say it's worth it at present, but neither would I say it's snake oil.
Mitten Caldari Black Avatar Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.12.31 12:57:00 - [9] My fav thing = they link to the places you can buy it. Click on newegg's page for it and read the reviews :P most are horrible
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.12.31 13:00:00 - [10] Originally by: Agito Gravis Originally by: Dark Shikari KillerNIC = Snake Oil, plain and simple. That's pretty much it. As by definition the network card only accounts for a few microseconds of ping time, a "faster one" won't help anything. Erm... no. That's not entirely true. A network card, and its drivers, also affect other resources. The idea behind the KillerNIC, as I understand it, is to reduce the usage of the CPU to free that up, as well as improve the efficiency of network communication. It may also account for significantly more than a few microseconds depending on the exact weight of the factors involved, just e.g. the game's own networking code, other traffic using the connection. So a bloated card running a complicated operating system is going to be faster than a simple hardware switch with a small microchip? I doubt it. Especially as all reputable tests (such as Anandtech, etc) show that the "improvement" sits comfortably within the margin of error. -[23] Member- Listen to EVE-Trance Radio! (DSTrance channel ingame)
Mike Yagon Minmatar The Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.12.31 13:09:00 - [11] Wow, you mean that card is actually real? I browsed their site a little and I constantly had this "hoax lol" feeling. I mean, look at the pictures and the type of text they use. ------ In Carebear We Trust
Tachy	Posted - 2006.12.31 13:39:00 - [12] Yes, the card does exist. A neighbour had troubles installing it and I helped him. We tested a couple of things, and a 'true' network card (realtek, Intel,3com) unlike 'untrue' network cards (using the CPU for the tasks) had the same or even much better effect. Specialized hardware is always faster than the software emulating it. --==*-- The cause for this is not yet known, but we do have a possible fix in testing. by Sharkbait \| 2006.09.20
Lysit Kaune Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2006.12.31 14:46:00 - [13] Killer NIC is a laugh, it might reduce hardware resources but whats it connected to? Your router/modem, thats gonna still put some lag in. If you really wanna reduce lag by changing your hardware get a PCI ADSL modem, that'll beat snake o.. the killer NIC hands down.
Agito Gravis	Posted - 2006.12.31 15:21:00 - [14] Originally by: Dark Shikari So a bloated card running a complicated operating system is going to be faster than a simple hardware switch with a small microchip? If the task its performing can be improved with more sophisticated operation than a 'simple hardware switch with a small microchip' (not that that's all there is to it, but still) can perform then yes, it will effectively be faster. And it is. Just not enough for it to be worth it. Quote: I doubt it. Especially as all reputable tests (such as Anandtech, etc) show that the "improvement" sits comfortably within the margin of error. Er... I've just gone and read the Anandtech review and it doesn't say what you appear to think it says. I'm getting the impression you're one of those people who knows a little and thinks they know it all. You clearly don't.
WildAmishRose Caldari Vale Heavy Industries	Posted - 2006.12.31 15:43:00 - [15] Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Agito Gravis Originally by: Dark Shikari KillerNIC = Snake Oil, plain and simple. That's pretty much it. As by definition the network card only accounts for a few microseconds of ping time, a "faster one" won't help anything. Erm... no. That's not entirely true. A network card, and its drivers, also affect other resources. The idea behind the KillerNIC, as I understand it, is to reduce the usage of the CPU to free that up, as well as improve the efficiency of network communication. It may also account for significantly more than a few microseconds depending on the exact weight of the factors involved, just e.g. the game's own networking code, other traffic using the connection. So a bloated card running a complicated operating system is going to be faster than a simple hardware switch with a small microchip? I doubt it. Especially as all reputable tests (such as Anandtech, etc) show that the "improvement" sits comfortably within the margin of error. So 'Reputatble' tests find the card's performance improvement to be within the margin of error on a normal NIC, yet your previous post claims a quadrupled latency? hardocp seemed to like the card. Ineffective, by a slight margin, perhaps, 4x slower, wildly unlikely.
Grez Minmatar The Raven Warriors	Posted - 2006.12.31 16:03:00 - [16] Edited by: Grez on 31/12/2006 16:04:37 EVE uses hardly any bandwidth - you'll get little or no boost from this. The only area you'll get network performance increase is when the Windows network stack fills and a queue forms (very unlikely), or if your CPU is a serious bottleneck in your system, wherein your machine is spending more time on doing other calculations than actually processing the data that needs to be spent (and your games would need to be running at 1-2 fps for that to happen). Basicly, if your CPU isn't fast enough to run EVE or any other game, take the money you'd spend on this, and buy a better motherboard/CPU. You'll get far more speed improvements out of it. This, I'm afraid, is just a fad like physics cards (utterly useless). --- Cache Clearer
Rayvonuk Privateers	Posted - 2006.12.31 16:13:00 - [17] Originally by: Agito Gravis I'm getting the impression you're one of those people who knows a little and thinks they know it all. You clearly don't. you also give me the same impression of yourself, but seems you also like to badmouth others into the bargain.
Agito Gravis	Posted - 2006.12.31 16:36:00 - [18] Originally by: Grez Edited by: Grez on 31/12/2006 16:19:30 EVE uses hardly any bandwidth - you'll get little or no boost from this. ... Agito Gravis, you do not know what you're talking about unfortunatly. I got one of these cards as a christmas gift, and I'll tell you now, they're nothing special - it's just a nice toy. Well, you clearly don't really know what you're talking about judging by that first comment, if you really think bandwidth is the only, or even just the most, significant factor here. It isn't. And I actually do know what I'm talking about here, but then, you appear to be agreeing with me - so I guess you just can't read too well? Where have I said I think it's something special? While I've said that it's not snake oil, I've also said that I'd expect it to offer slight improvements, and that personally I don't think it's worth it. Sounds pretty much the same as your position there.
Agito Gravis	Posted - 2006.12.31 16:53:00 - [19] Originally by: Rayvonuk Originally by: Agito Gravis I'm getting the impression you're one of those people who knows a little and thinks they know it all. You clearly don't. you also give me the same impression of yourself, but seems you also like to badmouth others into the bargain. I think of it more as calling a spade a spade, but I do find it mildly amusing that you clearly think of it as badmouthing and are yet quite happy to do it yourself. Anyway, I was getting that impression of Dark Shikari because on the one hand his initial post showed a fairly large lack of comprehension of all the factors involved, and on the other hand because, while he calls it snake oil, the only specific review he refers to - the Anandtech one - doesn't conclude that, but instead is far more in line with what I've said - that it does work, offers small improvements (amount depending on the game and system spec, etc.), but isn't worth it at present.
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.12.31 21:01:00 - [20] Originally by: WildAmishRose hardocp seemed to like the card. Ineffective, by a slight margin, perhaps, 4x slower, wildly unlikely. Not quadrupled latency, 4x lower throughput speed, in some cases. The "actual tests" were when they finally got it to work. -[23] Member- Listen to EVE-Trance Radio! (DSTrance channel ingame)
Mirirar Caldari Solstice Systems Development Concourse	Posted - 2006.12.31 21:41:00 - [21] Originally by: Agito Gravis I'm getting the impression you're one of those people who knows a little and thinks they know it all. You clearly don't. Unless this card can somehow increase the speed of light, there's VERY LITTLE this card can do to improve network performance. I think reviews that show anything are either unscientific, or bought by the vendor.
Caleb Rakesh	Posted - 2006.12.31 22:23:00 - [22] I was reading a review for the Killer NIC in MaximumPC. They did a lot of tests on it and they found that the performance increase you would get from using it is negligible, if any increase was gained at all. Here is a review from HardOCP too, they are usually informative: http://enthusiast.hardocp.com/article.html?art=MTIzOSwxLCxoZW50aHVzaWFzdA==
Ajaku	Posted - 2006.12.31 22:24:00 - [23] KillerNIC: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16833342001 Gamerlounge: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16833127060 One a piece of crap that only improves ping in WoW, assuming you get it to work. The other works with almost all systems and improves ping and download speeds. I'll let you decide which is which.
Agito Gravis	Posted - 2006.12.31 22:33:00 - [24] Originally by: Mirirar Originally by: Agito Gravis I'm getting the impression you're one of those people who knows a little and thinks they know it all. You clearly don't. Unless this card can somehow increase the speed of light, there's VERY LITTLE this card can do to improve network performance. I think reviews that show anything are either unscientific, or bought by the vendor. That's a very good illustration of what I'm talking about. Was that intentional? Yes, a network card can't decrease the physical time of transmission. But that is only one part of the actual in-game latency you experience, and while it is often (but not always) the most significant factor, it is not the only significant factor. There is significant processing involved on the client side and it is entirely possible (extent depending on how efficient the networking code of the client is) to make improvements there. That's in addition to the previously mentioned reduction of load on the CPU (and have I mentioned traffic prioritisation? Only really relevant if there's other traffic running on the connection, but it can be a factor). Of course, as I've also previously said, those improvements will generally be slight, not huge. But they most certainly can exist.
Hllaxiu Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.12.31 23:00:00 - [25] Edited by: Hllaxiu on 31/12/2006 23:06:15 If you're going to spend a lot of cash on a network card, buy something like this. And actually on second though, if you're going to pay $250 a NIC, just run fiber. --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson
mechtech	Posted - 2006.12.31 23:14:00 - [26] The MOST you will ever see from this card is a 5ms ping boost. Worth 250$? no way On top of that, it's much more complicated than other NICs, so it probably has its fair share of incompatibilities and bugs. I'd only take one if it was free.
Hllaxiu Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.12.31 23:24:00 - [27] That pci card does look like a fun little toy though - freescale processor @ 400mhz, 64 megs of ram and a spartan 3e... I wonder if theres a JTAG connector. (yes I'm an electrical engineer, could anyone tell?) --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson
Ander Gallente Sniggerdly	Posted - 2006.12.31 23:38:00 - [28] Well.. You wont get any noticable increases from getting this "KillerNic". Infact, spending those $200 to get a better CPU would probably do a better job. The card is probably crippled in terms of jtag connector, so dont even bother =( funnier playing with a fon router through serieal or the jtag (unsoldered). RAWR!11 Sig Hijack!11 - Imaran
Suleyman Gallente	Posted - 2006.12.31 23:41:00 - [29] hmmm This card might be not so bad, sitting there expecting a ping decrease is just not what this card may offer you. However, cpu's and such ofen suffer from wait states that occur when asking for net info. If this can be offloaded on a network cpu, then you might just notice that your computer might handle netload a lot smoother. I've ofen found that the computer just freezes when waiting for info from slow sites or pages, this card might be the solution. Suleyman
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.12.31 23:52:00 - [30] Edited by: Dark Shikari on 31/12/2006 23:52:07 Originally by: Suleyman I've ofen found that the computer just freezes when waiting for info from slow sites or pages, this card might be the solution. That is unrelated to the CPU taking time to handle network calculations. If your computer is freezing, its either accessing the page file or your browser sucks. To give you an idea of the CPU usage needed for handling TCP/IP packets, a 10-gigabit link uses roughly 50% CPU on a good processor. EVE uses roughly ten million times less bandwidth than that, and thus the raw network processing uses that much less CPU. -[23] Member- Listen to EVE-Trance Radio! (DSTrance channel ingame)

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