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DPS/range analysis based on testing (chaos) [deprecated]

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xeno calligan	Posted - 2003.12.04 07:33:00 - [31] Edited by: xeno calligan on 04/06/2004 17:03:32 Edited by: xeno calligan on 04/12/2003 07:59:03 Having already done the ground work, I though I might as well squeeze some more info out of the data, since it's just a question of punching in a few more numbers. Well, allmost Missiles It's not really hard to compute the maximal damage for missiles so we can compare them to turrets, but misiles are affected by several factors that prevent them from reaching their potential in many cases. They need to be carefully ripple fired (esp. on a raven) They scale badly in fleet battles (having more missile ships fireing at a target can reduce the total DPS) They are relatively slow. With turrets you get instant damage. With missiles, your target might not be around any longer when they get there (MWDs away, or gets killed by turret fire). They can be shot down Below is a plot of optimal nominal DPS for large weapons, taking ship bonuses into account. As before, all relevant skills are assumed to be lvl 4, except Gunnery and Missile Launcher Operation lvl 5 (since they are pre-reqs.). Reloading times have not been accounted for. Legend green = raven with H-50/S-110 launcher (torpedo) magenta = any ship with H-50/S-110 launcher (torpedo) red = tempest with 1400mm arty pink-ish = typhoon with 1400mm arty green = cardari with 425mm rail / Neutron Blaster Cannon blue = armageddon with tachyon cyan = apocalypse with tachyon black = Gallente with 425mm rails / Neutron Blaster Cannon The above graph does not account for reloading times, which is quite unfair to the H-50 launcher since it only holds 2 torpedos (3 for "Arbalest" launchers). Reloading takes 10 seconds for all wepaons but the lasers (which don't require reloading when the range is fixed). To account for GUI interaction, we'll assume that all munitions have been split into seperate stacks for faster reloading and that we thus can give the reload order within 1 second. Below is a plot of optimal DPS for each battleship, taking ship bonuses into account. Launchers, hybrid and projectile turrets have been adjusted to factor in reloading times based on effective ROF and capacity. In effect, the plot illustrates the efficieny for long encounters. Legend green = raven with S-110 launcher (torpedo) light green = raven with H-50 launcher (cruise missile!) magenta = any ship with S-110 launcher (torpedo) light magenta = any ship with H-50 launcher (torpedo) red = tempest with 1400mm arty pink-ish = typhoon with 1400mm arty green = cardari with 425mm rail / Neutron Blaster Cannon blue = armageddon with tachyon cyan = apocalypse with tachyon black = Gallente with 425mm rails / Neutron Blaster Cannon Large turret fitting Below are two plots illustrating how effectively fitting resources are being utilized for large turrets. The first plot show how much DPS 1mw grid buys you plotted against range. The second shows the CPU utilization. DPS/grid DPS/CPU Legend dark red = Dual Heavy Pulse Laser red = Dual Heavy Beam Laser orange = Mega Pulse Laser yellow = Mega Beam Laser dark yellow = Tachyon Beam Laser dark green = Dual 250mm Railgun green = Dual Heavy Ion Blaster green/cyan = Ion Blaster Cannon cyan = Neutron Blaster Cannon dark cyan = 425mm Railgun dark blue = Dual 425mm Auto Cannon blue = Dual 650mm Repeating Artillery blue/magenta = 800mm Repeating Artillery []magenta = 1200mm Artillery Cannon[]dark magenta = 1400mm Howitzer Artillery Edit: Just to make more sense of the colors: Lasers: red (green-shifted, ordering: low fitting reqs. to high), Hybrids: green (blue-shifted) and Projectiles: blue (red-shifted). <cont'd below>
xeno calligan	Posted - 2003.12.04 07:34:00 - [32] Edited by: xeno calligan on 04/06/2004 17:05:08 Edited by: xeno calligan on 05/12/2003 05:06:15 <cont'd> Hopefully, there's not too many surprises here. Generally weapons with lower fitting reqs. have better utilization of the fitting resources. It's worth noting that the 1200mm arty only is a tiny bit better than the 1400mm arty up to 10km (not accounting for the fact they have problems there due to tracking). Unless you really need the extra tracking or you can't fit a 1400mm arty in the last slot, there's really no reason to choose the 1200mm. The 1200mm arty grid reqs. ought to be lowered. Another thing worth noting is the fact that the Mega Beam Laser is a better choice than the Tachyon unless you really have insane amounts of grid to spare. Hopefully this is something ppl already know, but I keep hearing about pilots who put 4 tachyons on their Apocalyse and just waste the remaining slots. Plain Turret Comparison Below is a comparison of the DPS of all the turrets in each size class without ship bonuses. Large Turrets Legend dark red = Dual Heavy Pulse Laser red = Dual Heavy Beam Laser orange = Mega Pulse Laser yellow = Mega Beam Laser dark yellow = Tachyon Beam Laser dark green = Dual 250mm Railgun green = Dual Heavy Ion Blaster green/cyan = Ion Blaster Cannon cyan = Neutron Blaster Cannon dark cyan = 425mm Railgun dark blue = Dual 425mm Auto Cannon blue = Dual 650mm Repeating Artillery blue/magenta = 800mm Repeating Artillery magenta = 1200mm Artillery Cannon dark magenta = 1400mm Howitzer Artillery Medium Turrets Legend dark red = Quad Light Beam Laser red = Focused Medium Pulse Laser orange = Focused Medium Beam Laser yellow = Heavy Pulse Laser dark yellow = Heavy Beam Laser dark green = Dual 150mm Railgun green = Heavy Electron Blaster green/cyan = Heavy Ion Blaster cyan = Heavy Neutron Blaster dark cyan = 250mm Railgun dark blue = Dual 180mm Auto Cannon blue = 220mm Vulcan Auto Cannon blue/magenta = 425mm Auto Cannon magenta = 650mm Artillery Cannon dark magenta = 720mm Howitzer Artillery Small Turrets Legend dark red = Gatling Pulse Laser red = Dual Light Pulse Laser orange = Dual Light Beam Laser yellow = Medium Pulse Laser dark yellow = Medium Beam Laser dark green = 75mm Gatling Rail green = Light Electron Blaster 2/3 green, 1/3 cyan = Light Ion Blaster 1/3 green, 2/3 cyan = 125mm Railgun cyan = Light Neutron Blaster dark cyan = 150mm Railgun dark blue = Dual 180mm Auto Cannon blue = 220mm Vulcan Auto Cannon blue/magenta = 425mm Auto Cannon magenta = 650mm Artillery Cannon dark magenta = 720mm Howitzer Artillery When comparing the plots for the different turret classes, it is quite clear that they are essentially the same, just with different scales. The main differences are the tachyon and the 125mm railgun. Essentially, the Tachyon Beam Laser (which has no predecessor) has taken the place of the successor of the low-end lasers -- Gatling Pulse Laser and Quad Light Beam Laser. While this might seem a bad move at first (removing the most grid efficient laser), the amarr can easily afford the grid of the better lasers. So it seems a bit odd that the Gatling Pulse Laser and the Quad Light Beam Laser extist in the first place. Surely a predecessor to the Tachyon Beam Laser would be better. The small hybrid class has 6 turrets, but unfortunately the 125mm railgun has no successor (the dual 150mm rail is the successor of the 75mm Gatling rail!). This is unfortunate since there's no middle ground between the underpowered (but very economical) 150mm/dual 250mm railguns and the highpowered 250mm/425mm railguns. <end>
Cell Satimo	Posted - 2003.12.04 11:54:00 - [33] Briliant work. Small Request: Could you please label all the axis in your diagrams? \| Join eve-webring.com to promote your site.
Teeth	Posted - 2003.12.05 04:28:00 - [34] Sticky this ;-)
dalman	Posted - 2003.12.05 10:51:00 - [35] Quote: Briliant work. Small Request: Could you please label all the axis in your diagrams? It's not hard to figure out... Y-axis is damage/second from 1 turret against 0 resistance. X-axis is range in km. M.I.A. since 2004-07-30
xeno calligan	Posted - 2003.12.06 16:58:00 - [36] Quote: Small Request: Could you please label all the axis in your diagrams? Update: All graphs that do not show DPS (hp/s) as function of range (km) have been properly labeled.
Ylang Star	Posted - 2004.02.12 00:14:00 - [37] One of the best thread ever! "I don't suffer from insanity. I enjoy every minute of it."
Qutsemnie	Posted - 2004.02.12 01:06:00 - [38] Edited by: Qutsemnie on 12/02/2004 01:09:19 Awesome. I had the inside range thing all screwed up.
drunkenmaster	Posted - 2004.02.12 09:48:00 - [39] Fantastic work. I'd like to see how a tempest w/800's matches up against a mega with neutrons, though :) .
DREAMWORKS	Posted - 2004.02.12 12:56:00 - [40] @_@ Ugh, i wish i paid more attention at math classes the stupid fark i am. Beeing dutchy doesn¦t make it any easier to get the whole explenation about it, heh ^^ should have paid more attention during the colour explanation if we ever had that . But thanks for giving me food to read before going to bed. __________________________ http://www.nin.com/visuals/thtf_hi.html
DREAMWORKS	Posted - 2004.02.12 13:06:00 - [41] Quote: Quote: Briliant work. Small Request: Could you please label all the axis in your diagrams? It's not hard to figure out... Y-axis is damage/second from 1 turret against 0 resistance. X-axis is range in km. Hey, thats one thing i did know.. Gues i didnt sleep all the time after all __________________________ http://www.nin.com/visuals/thtf_hi.html
Adliger Krieger	Posted - 2004.02.12 13:24:00 - [42] The Hybrid range bonus is actually great on a Raven. It is obviously a close range ship because of how slow missiles and Torps are. You can fit Neutron Blaster Cannons on it and combined with Skill , ship bonus, and a tracking computer get some pretty good range out of it. 15-20k ish and those guns wreck.
Busko Moonwalker	Posted - 2004.02.12 13:34:00 - [43] lol but how do i read the charts maybe its cristal clear for everyone else :D but i feel a bit a bit of help would be nice :D
xeno calligan	Posted - 2004.02.15 16:30:00 - [44] Edited by: xeno calligan on 04/06/2004 17:07:33 Edited by: xeno calligan on 15/02/2004 16:35:52 Thanks for the comments Just a reminder: the post was based on an old patch, so the graphs are a bit out of date. In particular: Hybrid charges got a boost of +4 kinetic damage Heavy and siege launchers had their refire time increased from 16sec to 20sec. Autocannons got a damage boost of 20-40% and 2km more falloff. Blasters got 4km extra falloff. drunkenmaster wrote: Quote: I'd like to see how a tempest w/800's matches up against a mega with neutrons, though :) Patch 1389 plots for a tempest using autocannons and gallente ships using blasters: Legend Blue - Dual 425mm Autocannon (Tempest) Magenta - Dual 650mm repeating artillery (Tempest) Red - 800mm repeating artillery (Tempest) Green - Dual Heavy Ion Blaster (Gallente ship) Green/cyan - Ion Blaster Cannon (Gallente ship) Cyan - Neutron Blaster Cannon (Gallente ship) If you can afford swapping a cap power relay for a counter ballanced mod (seeing as the projectiles use virtually no cap), you can cover most of the ground up to the blasters: Busko Moonwalker wrote: Quote: lol but how do i read the charts maybe its cristal clear for everyone else :D but i feel a bit a bit of help would be nice :D The DPS graphs show the expected average damage per second (before resistances) as a function of range, under the assumption that the transversal speed is 0m/s (e.g. both your target and your ship have stopped). So using the graphs above, you can read from the graphs that at 10 km range, the Neutron Blaster Cannon (the cyan colored graph) has a damage troughput of roughly 28hp/sec (if you have all relevant skills at lvl 4 and you're not using damage mods). The Ion Blaster cannon has only 21hp/sec, so you can see how the difference in efficiency between the two turrets becomes greater as the range increases.
Karsten	Posted - 2004.02.15 16:59:00 - [45] Edited by: Karsten on 15/02/2004 17:04:47 Edited by: Karsten on 15/02/2004 17:01:45 Thank you for this great analysis!!! you did a fantastic job Karsten Karsten "All your ISK belong to the Viking Brewery"
drunkenmaster	Posted - 2004.02.18 00:08:00 - [46] my own graph! I feel special. <3 .
Vvlaam	Posted - 2004.02.18 07:57:00 - [47] wow, impressive work! --------- B.L.O.U.P
T'el'Alana Luathin	Posted - 2004.02.18 10:44:00 - [48] A very interesting post. I'm very much looking forward to hearing about tracking, as one cannot ignore it. I have a sneaky suspicion gallentes will pop out infront. I'm guessing you'll have to do all your tracking experiments within optimal range. I was wondering if you could check out one thing, how much damage does a mega with neutron blasters do against an apoc with shield wards against the damage types of the neutrons at close range? Keep up the good work :) T.L. -- always look on the bright side of the cloning facility.
Shin Taka	Posted - 2004.02.18 16:48:00 - [49] Fantastic post. Shameless bumpage too. :p ----------- Keeper of the Wombat 2004.09.03 00:42:20notifyTraining of the skill Repair Systems lvl 6 has been completed.
OmegaTron	Posted - 2004.02.18 17:33:00 - [50] holy crapness thats awsome dude wow ------------------------------------------------ A Plague is comming....
OmegaTron	Posted - 2004.02.18 17:35:00 - [51] i vote this to be a "sticky" bump ------------------------------------------------ A Plague is comming....
GunnyP	Posted - 2004.02.18 23:12:00 - [52] Wow, just wow... great work! Thank you very much. I also vot for this to be sticky...
Zzyxx	Posted - 2004.02.20 15:32:00 - [53] Vote for sticky so nobody miss this tread! /Z --------------------------- The silverpilot in a Muninn
NoNamium	Posted - 2004.03.13 21:26:00 - [54] Hi, Xeno! I have a hard time distingushing the colors on the graphs , so is it possible to make dotted/stapled and filled lines in the same color. Also maybe naming the colors from top to bottom beginning with the first color top of the y-axis. I'm reading this in 1280x960 and the colors become very similar when there are 8-10 of them. This is great work (and a tremendous effort) from an old university friend of mine - Xeno Calligan See you In Space
Theladon	Posted - 2004.03.26 08:21:00 - [55] Would be awesome to have access to this analasys in a bit better resolution on a webpage somewhere...
Theladon	Posted - 2004.03.26 08:22:00 - [56] Oh....And please make this a sticky..:)
NoNamium	Posted - 2004.04.04 06:22:00 - [57] oh, yeah... sticky, please?
Outcastino	Posted - 2004.04.04 12:12:00 - [58] Edited by: Outcastino on 04/04/2004 17:07:23 Nevermind, something silly was written here :p -------------------------------------------- I love the smell off cookies in the morning, smells like victory!
Jin'Bing Ju	Posted - 2004.04.04 15:35:00 - [59] Very nice. Can we see a DPS versus Cap Usage Graph?
TrailBlazer	Posted - 2004.06.04 09:28:00 - [60] I know it is a old topic, but the data is good but the images are not working. Is there a mirror somewhere? --- There are two kinds of people, those who do the work and those who take credit. Try to be in the first group, there is less competition there.

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