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xeno calligan	Posted - 2003.11.29 14:15:00 - [1] Edited by: xeno calligan on 20/06/2004 05:38:02 Edited by: xeno calligan on 04/06/2004 17:10:40 Update 04/06/2004, see below I have conducted extensive tests (about 3MB logs of combat messages) on Chaos to examine DPS as a function of range only. The results of the tests are presented below. Note that I haven't looked at tracking speed at all, before jumping to rash conclusions. DPS/range testing with Tachyon Beam Lasers The tests were carried out from a stationary battleship shooting at a stationary target (med secure can). The test data show rather conclusively that the damage is calculated as the base damage times the modifier for the hit type: Miss -- modifier: 0 Light hit -- modifier: random number [0, 0.25] (histogram, tail probabilities) Scratching hit -- modifier: random mumber [0.25, 0.5] (histogram, tail probabilities) Normal hit -- modifier: 1 Aimed hit -- modifer: random number [1, 1.25] (histogram, tail probabilities) Excelent hit -- modifier: random number [1.25, 1.5] (histogram, tail probabilities) Perfect (wrecking) hit -- modifier: 3 Below is a plot of total damage per shot as a function of range. Sampling intensities are available here. The green box indicates optimal range, optimal+falloff range and has base damage height. To give an idea of the precition, the probablilities for the different hit types are plotted against range below: Legend Black -- miss Red -- light hit Yellow -- scratching hit Green -- normal hit Cyan -- aimed hit Blue -- excelent hit Magenta -- perfect/wrecking hit One thing worth noting, is the fact that the probability for a wrecking hit seems to be constant at all ranges. <cont'd below>
xeno calligan	Posted - 2003.11.29 14:15:00 - [2] Edited by: xeno calligan on 04/06/2004 16:58:53 Edited by: xeno calligan on 29/11/2003 14:17:18 <cont'd> New damage model To put this data to good use, we'll be using the tachyon test data as a model for the damage as a function of range. In order to accomodate different optimal and fall-off ranges, the first part of the graph (op to optimal) is simply strectched to match the new optimal range and the other part is stretched to match the new falloff. In order to show how this matches up, two test series were carried out -- one with 1400 artys and one with neutron blasters. Below are plots of the probabilities as a function of range with an overlay of the damage model (in plum). 1400 Artillery with uranium rounds (sampling intensity): Neutron Blaster Cannon with antimatter rounds (sampling intensity): Keeping the sampling intensities in mind, the plots match up quite reasonably. Note that this implies that the damage models for different turrets are very likely to be exactly the same. For the pilots who are so keen on comparing thier wrecking hits, this also shows that there is no evidence that the chance to get a wrecking hit differs between turrets and that it's constant at all ranges. Incidently, this in turn means that the best weapon for extreme ranges (around 400km) is the most damageing weapon. If we want high DPS, the best weapon would thus be Neutron Blasters, albeit it would only operate at about 3% of optimal efficiency. DPS/Range Analysis With the new and improved damage model, the performance of the different turrets can be compared directly. For calculation of bonuses, it's assumed that the pilot has lvl 4 in all relevant skills (except gunnery lvl 5). To model the nominal damage, we'll be using an average battleship (litterally!): Shield: 4159 hp, 0%em, 20%th, 40%ki, 60%ex Armor: 4028 hp, 63%em, 39%th, 29%ki, 13%ex Struct: 4142 hp, 0% res Assuming we fire until all shield, armor and struct is gone (i.e. no shield boosters/hardeners, armor plating/repairers, bleed-though, etc.), we get the effective damage mods for the different damage types: em := .795 th := .806 ki := .779 ex := .756 In reality, lasers would perform better and projectiles worse, due to shield regeneration/hardeners and armor bleed-through. Links are provided to plots for shield and armor only DPS. Next we present a break-down of the 4 major large turrets. Tachyon Beam Laser The plot below shows the DPS for different crystales. View: shield, armor. Legend Black = multi freq. Red = gamma Yellow = xray Green = ultraviolet Cyan = standard Blue = infrared Magenta = microwave Plum = radio From the graph it is evident that the constant 24 total damage on the 3 long range crystals has a significant impact on the damage thourgh-put. Also note that the "standard" crystal is dreprecated. To easier find the best crystal for a given range, the penalties for using sub-optimal crystals have been plotted below. The plot show the damage for a given crystal divided by the optimal damage possible. View: shield, armor. From the graph it's clear that tachyons are quite sensitive to sub-optimal crystals -- e.g. with multi freq. crystals, the performance drops to 1/10 of optimal around 80km. Fortunately, the crystals can be swapped much quicker than ordinary ammonition. <cont'd below>
xeno calligan	Posted - 2003.11.29 14:16:00 - [3] Edited by: xeno calligan on 04/06/2004 17:00:37 Edited by: xeno calligan on 29/11/2003 14:18:12 <cont'd> 425mm Rail The plot below shows the DPS for different hybrid charges. View: shield, armor. Legend Black = antimatter Red = plutonium Yellow = uranium Green = thorium Cyan = lead Blue = iridium Magenta = tungsten Plum = iron Below is a plot of the penalties for using sub-optimal charges. View: shield, armor. Similarly to the tachyon, the 425mm rail also is quite sensitive to suboptimal charges, but due to the long delay for reloading, the rails suffers more from this. Neutron Blaster Cannon The plot below shows the DPS for different hybrid charges. View: shield, armor. Legend Black = antimatter Red = plutonium Yellow = uranium Green = thorium Cyan = lead Blue = iridium Magenta = tungsten Plum = iron Below is a plot of the penalties for using sub-optimal charges. View: shield, armor. Note that for Neutron Blaster Cannons, antimatter charges work very well at all ranges, dropping to only 90% at the lowest. Hardly worth the reloading penalty. 1400 Artillery The plot below shows the DPS for different projectile charges. View: shield, armor. Legend Black = emp Red = phased plasma Yellow = fusion Green = titanium sabot Cyan = depleted uranium Blue = photon Magenta = nuclear Plum = carbonized lead Below is a plot of the penalties for using sub-optimal charges. View: shield, armor. Like neutron blasters, the 1400mm artillery is fairly resiliant to sub-optimal charges. Emp charges do not drop below 70% optimal efficiency at worst (110km). <cont'd below>
xeno calligan	Posted - 2003.11.29 14:18:00 - [4] Edited by: xeno calligan on 04/06/2004 17:02:22 Edited by: xeno calligan on 04/12/2003 07:44:07 <cont'd> Turret Comparison, with optimal munitions Next is a plot of optimal nominal DPS for each of the "best" turrets, i.e. assuming that you always use the optimal munitions for the range. Note that laser users will have an easier time adjusting for range on the move due to the low delay in switching crystals. Reloading times have not been accounted for. View: shield, armor. legend red = 1400mm arty green = 425mm rail blue = tachyon black = Neutron Blaster Cannon The plot below illustrates the optimal nominal DPS for each battleship using the largest of the turrets it gets ship bonuses for. View: shield, armor. legend red = tempest with 1400mm arty pink-ish = typhoon with 1400mm arty green = caldari with 425mm rail / Neutron Blaster Cannon blue = armageddon with tachyon cyan = apocalypse with tachyon black = Gallente with 425mm rails / Neutron Blaster Cannon Turret Comparison, with sub-optimal munitions It's quite unreasonable to assume that a pilot would carry 8 different types of munitions and switch accordingly during battle. To give a perhaps more true picture of the DPS we'll assume the pilot carries only 2 types of munitions in order to save cargo and reduce time spent reloading. Consulting the graphs for sub-optimal penalties, it seems not entirely unreasonable to choose: Tachyon: multi freq. and radio Rail: antimatter and tungsten Neutron Blaster: antimatter 1400 arty: emp and carbonized lead Plot of DPS for turrets using the above munitions without ship bonuses with overlay of optimal DPS in grey. View: shield, armor. legend red = 1400mm arty green = 425mm rail blue = tachyon black = Neutron Blaster Cannon The plot below illustrates the sub-optimal nominal DPS for each battleship using the largest of the turrets it gets ship bonuses for. View: shield, armor. legend red = tempest with 1400mm arty pink-ish = typhoon with 1400mm arty green = caldari with 425mm rail / Neutron Blaster Cannon blue = armageddon with tachyon []cyan = apocalypse with tachyon[]black = Gallente with 425mm rails / Neutron Blaster Cannon A few final points The 425mm rail is very powerful on a megatron, which is supposed to be a close range ship (iirc). Minmatar have quite competitive damages considering they hardly use cap and that they are resiliant to sub-optimal charges (and other races suffer a great performance hit due to lack of bonuses). Finally, Caldari are still getting the short straw here. The +5% optimal range does very little to carve out a role for Caldari. I'd rather have +5% to the "oomph" factor of the roar of my engines () or 5% faster blink rate on my lights. Even if Caldari got a bonus to turrets that could remotely compare to +5% damage or ROF, we'd still only get a bonus to half of the hardpoints. And aren't caldari supposed to specialize in missiles anyway? The ship bonuses really ought to be reconsidered thoroughly. <end> Update: Missile comparison Fitting Plots Turret Comparison for all Size Classes Images rehosted.
dalman	Posted - 2003.11.29 14:56:00 - [5] VERY GOOD JOB. Although it conferms what I was already sure of, I would never have time to do this. And you've done this study very well M.I.A. since 2004-07-30
Jorlin	Posted - 2003.11.29 15:05:00 - [6] looks like i have a good read now while traveling... Thanks no police, no summons, no courts of law; no proper procedure, no rules of war; no mitigating circumstance; no lawyers fees, no second chance!
Antimater	Posted - 2003.11.29 15:33:00 - [7] Excellent my friend...excellent! ill be using this info..many thanks..
Elve Sorrow	Posted - 2003.11.29 16:04:00 - [8] Excellent post! Thanks alot. /Elve New Video out! Watch me!
Cenlroner	Posted - 2003.11.29 16:38:00 - [9] This is an awesome post. Keep up the good work.
Brukhai Khan	Posted - 2003.11.29 16:47:00 - [10] great work, extremely useful.
Lola	Posted - 2003.11.29 16:51:00 - [11] Most excellent study. This makes me VERY curious about how tracking woud come into play however. I'd be willing to orbit you at various speeds and various ranges on chaos if you'd like. All in the name of science of course. Contact Lola in-game if you're interested. Thanks for making this public xeno. ----------------------------------------- Sig rented by Drethen Nerevitas.
ClawHammer III	Posted - 2003.11.30 02:56:00 - [12] Wow, very good post.
ClawHammer III	Posted - 2003.11.30 03:18:00 - [13] Quote: A few final points The 425mm rail is very powerful on a megatron, which is supposed to be a close range ship (iirc). Minmatar have quite competitive damages considering they hardly use cap and that they are resiliant to sub-optimal charges (and other races suffer a great performance hit due to lack of bonuses). Finally, Caldari are still getting the short straw here. The +5% optimal range does very little to carve out a role for Caldari. I'd rather have +5% to the "oomph" factor of the roar of my engines () or 5% faster blink rate on my lights. Even if Caldari got a bonus to turrets that could remotely compare to +5% damage or ROF, we'd still only get a bonus to half of the hardpoints. And aren't caldari supposed to specialize in missiles anyway? The ship bonuses really ought to be reconsidered thoroughly. Well as you pointed out Caldari are supposed to specialize in missles so thats why they are getting the short straw in your comparison. Perhaps the Caldari range bonus needs to be reconcitered but I think the other bonuses are ok.
Eltigre	Posted - 2003.11.30 03:18:00 - [14] So does any of this mean the best BS in-game is not a Scorpion or Raven ? I would love to see a graph that says a Scorpion or Raven can easily be killed by any other ship that doesn't use as many torpedo tubes... seems to me we all know which ship wins unless the Scorp/Raven pilot was AFK or otherwise unconscious during the battle. SWEET routinely sells BPC's in Sing Laison and Essence Regions.
dalman	Posted - 2003.11.30 03:58:00 - [15] Quote: Well as you pointed out Caldari are supposed to specialize in missles so thats why they are getting the short straw in your comparison. Perhaps the Caldari range bonus needs to be reconcitered but I think the other bonuses are ok. Well, the ship bonuses for Minmatar and Gallente are waaaaay better than for Caldari and Amarr. I've pointed it out many times before. After the patch, when Chrystals are nerfed (or rather corrected as I see it), there will be no point in using lasers. And that includes large battles. The Megathron (instead of the Amarr ships) now becomes king of the hill when it comes to large battles (1vs1 throne is shared by Raven and Tempest). M.I.A. since 2004-07-30
dalman	Posted - 2003.11.30 04:05:00 - [16] Quote: So does any of this mean the best BS in-game is not a Scorpion or Raven ? I would love to see a graph that says a Scorpion or Raven can easily be killed by any other ship that doesn't use as many torpedo tubes... seems to me we all know which ship wins unless the Scorp/Raven pilot was AFK or otherwise unconscious during the battle. I thought "winning" included that you have to destroy your target. And since a Scorpion can't destroy another battleship I find it hard to understand how you can call it the best ship M.I.A. since 2004-07-30
Mitram	Posted - 2003.11.30 05:14:00 - [17] Nice post. But does these charts really help to balance the different ships? What about the over all situation of the ships with the best med and the low slot usage? The dmg output is only a minor issue in PvP and only a major issue in NPC hunting.
xeno calligan	Posted - 2003.11.30 07:42:00 - [18] Edited by: xeno calligan on 30/11/2003 07:44:54 Thanks for all the comments Mitram wrote: Quote: But does these charts really help to balance the different ships? What about the over all situation of the ships with the best med and the low slot usage? The dmg output is only a minor issue in PvP and only a major issue in NPC hunting. The post was mainly intended as a reference for pilots to better understand how different factors affect DPS. But I think it's also useful when ballancing the different ships, e.g. to understand that hybrids are not "useless" and it's a bad idea to mount tachyons on a Megathron because you think they are. Also, I'd like to point out that there's more to ballancing ships than just pvp ballancing; Caldari are poor miners and NPC hunters due to the lack of turret hardpoints and while the badgers have good shields, they fall short on the cargo space, making them "poor" haulers. In fact, the only thing Caldari are good at is pvp. ClawHammer III wrote: Quote: Well as you pointed out Caldari are supposed to specialize in missles so thats why they are getting the short straw in your comparison. Perhaps the Caldari range bonus needs to be reconcitered but I think the other bonuses are ok. Indeed. There are several reasons why the caldari ship bonus needs to be reconsidered. 1) A bit more optimal range does not compare to more damage or rof in any shape or form. 2) Caldari ships specialize in missiles and use both turrets and missile bays (usually more bays than turrets), so a bonus to turrets seems quite odd to me. 3) The current bonus only really helps rails (since blasters benefit very little from extra optimal range) and the combination of rails and missiles is quite unfortunate. So far, combat always takes place at about 20km range, but once we can engage in combat at all ranges, the caldari ships will suffer from the "slow" missiles. If I were to put my bonus to good use, I'd have to be at 100km range or so; Even if my opponent decides to stick around and suppose the missiles were sequenced properly so they don't blow eachother up, it would still take 50 seconds before my missiles start to hit. Clearly missiles are short/medium range weapons and the don't mix too well with long distance weapons. The Typhoon +5% optmal range bonus also seems a bit strange. You'd think a bonus to falloff would be more natural. Another option would be a bonus to missile bays, to make it stand out more from then Tempest. Finally, the Apocalypse seems to be in need of a very slight boost. If you (as Amarr) want pure damage, the Armageddon is the way to go. But then again, with the 2 missile hardpoints and the extra mid slot, I'm not 100% sure whether it's really needed. Lola wrote: Quote: Most excellent study. This makes me VERY curious about how tracking woud come into play however. I'd be willing to orbit you at various speeds and various ranges on chaos if you'd like. All in the name of science of course. Contact Lola in-game if you're interested. Thanks for making this public xeno. Yes, investigating the effect of tracking speed would be quite interesting. I just might take you up on that offer
dalman	Posted - 2003.11.30 15:34:00 - [19] Quote: Finally, the Apocalypse seems to be in need of a very slight boost. If you (as Amarr) want pure damage, the Armageddon is the way to go. But then again, with the 2 missile hardpoints and the extra mid slot, I'm not 100% sure whether it's really needed. It becomes obvious that it is needed by comparing a Megathron and an Apoc. After the next patch a Megathron do more damage than an Apoc at "any" range. But the Apoc will use more cap than the Mega (despite it's cap bonuses). And since the ships has the same number of low and med slots, it's very obvious that the we will have very little use of Apocs, other than for mining, after the patch. Really, the Megathron and the Tempest have way too good skill bonuses compared to other ships M.I.A. since 2004-07-30
StealthNet	Posted - 2003.11.30 19:07:00 - [20] CCP, please hire him Sticky please ? _______________________________________________
archangel sean	Posted - 2003.12.01 05:53:00 - [21] nice work. I'm always fond of calculations for objective analysis. thanx alot. and btw, on chaos my megathron owned my apoc, without even a scratch.
ClawHammer III	Posted - 2003.12.01 06:35:00 - [22] Edited by: ClawHammer III on 01/12/2003 06:42:17 ClawHammer III wrote: Quote: Well as you pointed out Caldari are supposed to specialize in missles so thats why they are getting the short straw in your comparison. Perhaps the Caldari range bonus needs to be reconcitered but I think the other bonuses are ok. xeno calligan wrote: Quote: Indeed. There are several reasons why the caldari ship bonus needs to be reconsidered. 1) A bit more optimal range does not compare to more damage or rof in any shape or form. 2) Caldari ships specialize in missiles and use both turrets and missile bays (usually more bays than turrets), so a bonus to turrets seems quite odd to me. 3) The current bonus only really helps rails (since blasters benefit very little from extra optimal range) and the combination of rails and missiles is quite unfortunate. So far, combat always takes place at about 20km range, but once we can engage in combat at all ranges, the caldari ships will suffer from the "slow" missiles. If I were to put my bonus to good use, I'd have to be at 100km range or so; Even if my opponent decides to stick around and suppose the missiles were sequenced properly so they don't blow eachother up, it would still take 50 seconds before my missiles start to hit. Clearly missiles are short/medium range weapons and the don't mix too well with long distance weapons. The Typhoon +5% optmal range bonus also seems a bit strange. You'd think a bonus to falloff would be more natural. Another option would be a bonus to missile bays, to make it stand out more from then Tempest. Finally, the Apocalypse seems to be in need of a very slight boost. If you (as Amarr) want pure damage, the Armageddon is the way to go. But then again, with the 2 missile hardpoints and the extra mid slot, I'm not 100% sure whether it's really needed. You bring up good points. Changing the Caldari range bonus into a missile speed bonus could help the slow missile problem. That could also help alleviate problems with missiles colliding during launch because they will get out of the way faster. The Typhoon should probably be looked at as well. A falloff range bonus sounds like a good idea I think the Amarr ships have good bonuses but the problem is that lasers use too much cap even with the bonus. I think the energy cost on lasers should be reduced by 25% across the board. That would make them a bit more PvP friendly but the cap usage and powergrid would still be a liability for non-Amarr ships.
Teeth	Posted - 2003.12.01 15:40:00 - [23] Very good analysis. Just wondering if anyone looked at fitting requirements, as a tachyon might have higher DPS than 425's but more 425's can be fitted (for example). Also I agree that the Caldari bonus is kind of useless and that a missile bonus would work a lot better, but in terms of balance Caldari ships are already pretty much the very best at PVP, giving them a missile bonus would send them over the top. Not sure what the right answer is here.
Juan Andalusian	Posted - 2003.12.01 16:25:00 - [24] Nice work, Quote: One thing worth noting, is the fact that the probability for a wrecking hit seems to be constant at all ranges. It is constant at all ranges. You can get WRECKS with a blaster at 60km at mobile and immobile targets so i am fairly sure that the only factor that determines a WRECK is pure chance... how that chance percentage is calculated? i don't know. Pain is meant to be felt
Ana Khouri	Posted - 2003.12.01 17:29:00 - [25] I think the combat system of eve is very similar to that of D&D. For each shot Eve is throwing - for example - a d100 (100-sided dice). The numbers 1-20 could be "miss", 21-30 "hit, but no damage", 31-40 "slight hit",... and so on. Depending on the current range and tracking those numbers are changing - if you are way over your max range it could be, for example, 1-80 "miss", 81-95 "hit, but no damage", 96 "slight hit", 97 "hit", 98 "good hit"... Now, the perfect, the wrecking hit would only occur if you throw a 100, the chance to get it is always the same, unmodified by any range & tracking boni/mali to the hit chance. It's likely that you can determine the size of the dice used in eve by dividing the total shots fired by the total wrecking hits. free speech not allowed here
Novo DuPont	Posted - 2003.12.01 19:54:00 - [26] If you haven't put in a app for a paid position as a CCP tester, NOW would be a good time to put one in :) Excellent job. My only question is on the DPS averaging. What was the time length of each shooting session? Hybrids seem to lack good hiting over long periods of time. Did your calculations reflect just one shot broken down or was it many many shots averaged out and then broken down to DPS? Again great job :) "To succeed greatly one must sacrifice greatly"
Novo DuPont	Posted - 2003.12.01 20:00:00 - [27] Edited by: Novo DuPont on 01/12/2003 20:07:29 Ohh btw as far as Caldari are concerned, their MAIN weapons are LAUNCHERS not guns. So unless you have taken a DPS for diff missile/Torp types then they have a great bonus as it is. Caldari want to attack at range with missiles/Torps so a range bonus is quite appropiate. I mean launching 6 torps every 8 seconds or so with H-50 Launcher is a serious damage amount. A Raven pilot with lvl 4 Sharpshooter and lvl 4 Caldari BS skills pretty much elminates the Antimatter negative range bonus without the need of tracking enhancers/Computers. That means while the rest of us gets 28 or 29 Km with rails and Antimatter without range mods, A Caldari on a Scorp or Raven gets 52 km range with Antimater and no range mods. "To succeed greatly one must sacrifice greatly"
dalman	Posted - 2003.12.02 00:24:00 - [28] Quote: Edited by: Novo DuPont on 01/12/2003 20:07:29 Ohh btw as far as Caldari are concerned, their MAIN weapons are LAUNCHERS not guns. So unless you have taken a DPS for diff missile/Torp types then they have a great bonus as it is. Caldari want to attack at range with missiles/Torps so a range bonus is quite appropiate. I mean launching 6 torps every 8 seconds or so with H-50 Launcher is a serious damage amount. A Raven pilot with lvl 4 Sharpshooter and lvl 4 Caldari BS skills pretty much elminates the Antimatter negative range bonus without the need of tracking enhancers/Computers. That means while the rest of us gets 28 or 29 Km with rails and Antimatter without range mods, A Caldari on a Scorp or Raven gets 52 km range with Antimater and no range mods. First of all: 481.21.2*0.5=34.56km optimal range on a 425mm with AM on a Caldari ship. Second, 6 torpedos over 8 seconds means the torps will blow up each other and probably only 2 or 3 of those 6 will hit the target. Third, if a Caldari ship sits 50km out as you suggests it takes like 40 seconds for the first torpedo to reach the target. If that's in a fleet battle, the enemy will have killed that Caldari ships before it's missiles reaches the target! M.I.A. since 2004-07-30
xeno calligan	Posted - 2003.12.02 13:38:00 - [29] Edited by: xeno calligan on 02/12/2003 13:39:08 Dalman wrote: Quote: It becomes obvious that it is needed by comparing a Megathron and an Apoc. After the next patch a Megathron do more damage than an Apoc at "any" range. But the Apoc will use more cap than the Mega (despite it's cap bonuses). And since the ships has the same number of low and med slots, it's very obvious that the we will have very little use of Apocs, other than for mining, after the patch. You're right about that. The Apocalypse needs a boost to compare to the megathron. Though I like the idea of Amarr having two BS: one for extreme damage and one which is more ballanced for pvp. But even when you take ammo into account, they don't really get what they pay for in grid and cap usage. I think a damage boost would be the best solution, but ClawHammers suggestion of reduced cap consumption could work well too. ClawHammer III wrote: Quote: Changing the Caldari range bonus into a missile speed bonus could help the slow missile problem. That could also help alleviate problems with missiles colliding during launch because they will get out of the way faster. It definitely would help a raven pilot, but the benefit would be small for other ships; The missiles arrive sooner, but at the same time you're no longer "forced" to use rails, so e.g. blasters could work too. I think the problem of missiles blowing up friendlies is a central one that needs to be sorted out properly. Surely they can come up with better missille control systems than "blow up when close to something" -- "blow up when close to the target", would be a start. The entire concept of shockwaves in space is also rather unrealistic and the explosion radius on anything but torpedos only enable them to blow up other friendly missiles. It would work a lot better if they simply removed the explosion radius (again except topedos). Another thing is the lack of command queueing, which IMO is essential to overcome the lag, e.g. "reload at next cycle, then resume fire" or "when interference from warp is gone, initiate target lock and then engage modules". Seeing as caldari are supposed to be about about missiles, shields and "electronic systems", another option could be +5% ECCM strength which would fit with the Gallente/Caldari wars. But it's not a weapons bonus and it might be a bit much. If you want to work the "turing gallente tech against them" angle, it could even be magnetrometic strength = up to 50-75% of gravimetric based on skill Ana Khouri wrote: Quote: Now, the perfect, the wrecking hit would only occur if you throw a 100, the chance to get it is always the same, unmodified by any range & tracking boni/mali to the hit chance. It's likely that you can determine the size of the dice used in eve by dividing the total shots fired by the total wrecking hits. For the tachyon tests, the wrecking hits accounted for 1.037% of the shots fired, so I think you might be right with that 100 sided dice Novo DuPont wrote: Quote: My only question is on the DPS averaging. What was the time length of each shooting session? Hybrids seem to lack good hiting over long periods of time. Did your calculations reflect just one shot broken down or was it many many shots averaged out and then broken down to DPS? The DPS grahps all show damage per second as a function of range, so it's the (estimated) average damage per shot over a (very) long shoot-out. I think comparing the damage per shot wouldn't really help to clarify much. The "sampling intensities" are simple bar plots of the number of shots fired at different ranges, so you can have a look at those if you wish to find the time each shooting session ought to take (if chaos doesn't lag and consequently only logs a fraction of your shots ).
Reiisha	Posted - 2003.12.02 19:45:00 - [30] You have GOT to be hired by CCP by now..... In any case, could any of the mods sticky this thread? This information is quite usefull to both CCP and players.... Especially when fitting requirements/tracking research is done. Ah and Xeno, did you consider researching similar things for missiles? Would be interesting... Gamersland.nl, DE site voor PC gaming!
xeno calligan	Posted - 2003.12.04 07:33:00 - [31] Edited by: xeno calligan on 04/06/2004 17:03:32 Edited by: xeno calligan on 04/12/2003 07:59:03 Having already done the ground work, I though I might as well squeeze some more info out of the data, since it's just a question of punching in a few more numbers. Well, allmost Missiles It's not really hard to compute the maximal damage for missiles so we can compare them to turrets, but misiles are affected by several factors that prevent them from reaching their potential in many cases. They need to be carefully ripple fired (esp. on a raven) They scale badly in fleet battles (having more missile ships fireing at a target can reduce the total DPS) They are relatively slow. With turrets you get instant damage. With missiles, your target might not be around any longer when they get there (MWDs away, or gets killed by turret fire). They can be shot down Below is a plot of optimal nominal DPS for large weapons, taking ship bonuses into account. As before, all relevant skills are assumed to be lvl 4, except Gunnery and Missile Launcher Operation lvl 5 (since they are pre-reqs.). Reloading times have not been accounted for. Legend green = raven with H-50/S-110 launcher (torpedo) magenta = any ship with H-50/S-110 launcher (torpedo) red = tempest with 1400mm arty pink-ish = typhoon with 1400mm arty green = cardari with 425mm rail / Neutron Blaster Cannon blue = armageddon with tachyon cyan = apocalypse with tachyon black = Gallente with 425mm rails / Neutron Blaster Cannon The above graph does not account for reloading times, which is quite unfair to the H-50 launcher since it only holds 2 torpedos (3 for "Arbalest" launchers). Reloading takes 10 seconds for all wepaons but the lasers (which don't require reloading when the range is fixed). To account for GUI interaction, we'll assume that all munitions have been split into seperate stacks for faster reloading and that we thus can give the reload order within 1 second. Below is a plot of optimal DPS for each battleship, taking ship bonuses into account. Launchers, hybrid and projectile turrets have been adjusted to factor in reloading times based on effective ROF and capacity. In effect, the plot illustrates the efficieny for long encounters. Legend green = raven with S-110 launcher (torpedo) light green = raven with H-50 launcher (cruise missile!) magenta = any ship with S-110 launcher (torpedo) light magenta = any ship with H-50 launcher (torpedo) red = tempest with 1400mm arty pink-ish = typhoon with 1400mm arty green = cardari with 425mm rail / Neutron Blaster Cannon blue = armageddon with tachyon cyan = apocalypse with tachyon black = Gallente with 425mm rails / Neutron Blaster Cannon Large turret fitting Below are two plots illustrating how effectively fitting resources are being utilized for large turrets. The first plot show how much DPS 1mw grid buys you plotted against range. The second shows the CPU utilization. DPS/grid DPS/CPU Legend dark red = Dual Heavy Pulse Laser red = Dual Heavy Beam Laser orange = Mega Pulse Laser yellow = Mega Beam Laser dark yellow = Tachyon Beam Laser dark green = Dual 250mm Railgun green = Dual Heavy Ion Blaster green/cyan = Ion Blaster Cannon cyan = Neutron Blaster Cannon dark cyan = 425mm Railgun dark blue = Dual 425mm Auto Cannon blue = Dual 650mm Repeating Artillery blue/magenta = 800mm Repeating Artillery []magenta = 1200mm Artillery Cannon[]dark magenta = 1400mm Howitzer Artillery Edit: Just to make more sense of the colors: Lasers: red (green-shifted, ordering: low fitting reqs. to high), Hybrids: green (blue-shifted) and Projectiles: blue (red-shifted). <cont'd below>
xeno calligan	Posted - 2003.12.04 07:34:00 - [32] Edited by: xeno calligan on 04/06/2004 17:05:08 Edited by: xeno calligan on 05/12/2003 05:06:15 <cont'd> Hopefully, there's not too many surprises here. Generally weapons with lower fitting reqs. have better utilization of the fitting resources. It's worth noting that the 1200mm arty only is a tiny bit better than the 1400mm arty up to 10km (not accounting for the fact they have problems there due to tracking). Unless you really need the extra tracking or you can't fit a 1400mm arty in the last slot, there's really no reason to choose the 1200mm. The 1200mm arty grid reqs. ought to be lowered. Another thing worth noting is the fact that the Mega Beam Laser is a better choice than the Tachyon unless you really have insane amounts of grid to spare. Hopefully this is something ppl already know, but I keep hearing about pilots who put 4 tachyons on their Apocalyse and just waste the remaining slots. Plain Turret Comparison Below is a comparison of the DPS of all the turrets in each size class without ship bonuses. Large Turrets Legend dark red = Dual Heavy Pulse Laser red = Dual Heavy Beam Laser orange = Mega Pulse Laser yellow = Mega Beam Laser dark yellow = Tachyon Beam Laser dark green = Dual 250mm Railgun green = Dual Heavy Ion Blaster green/cyan = Ion Blaster Cannon cyan = Neutron Blaster Cannon dark cyan = 425mm Railgun dark blue = Dual 425mm Auto Cannon blue = Dual 650mm Repeating Artillery blue/magenta = 800mm Repeating Artillery magenta = 1200mm Artillery Cannon dark magenta = 1400mm Howitzer Artillery Medium Turrets Legend dark red = Quad Light Beam Laser red = Focused Medium Pulse Laser orange = Focused Medium Beam Laser yellow = Heavy Pulse Laser dark yellow = Heavy Beam Laser dark green = Dual 150mm Railgun green = Heavy Electron Blaster green/cyan = Heavy Ion Blaster cyan = Heavy Neutron Blaster dark cyan = 250mm Railgun dark blue = Dual 180mm Auto Cannon blue = 220mm Vulcan Auto Cannon blue/magenta = 425mm Auto Cannon magenta = 650mm Artillery Cannon dark magenta = 720mm Howitzer Artillery Small Turrets Legend dark red = Gatling Pulse Laser red = Dual Light Pulse Laser orange = Dual Light Beam Laser yellow = Medium Pulse Laser dark yellow = Medium Beam Laser dark green = 75mm Gatling Rail green = Light Electron Blaster 2/3 green, 1/3 cyan = Light Ion Blaster 1/3 green, 2/3 cyan = 125mm Railgun cyan = Light Neutron Blaster dark cyan = 150mm Railgun dark blue = Dual 180mm Auto Cannon blue = 220mm Vulcan Auto Cannon blue/magenta = 425mm Auto Cannon magenta = 650mm Artillery Cannon dark magenta = 720mm Howitzer Artillery When comparing the plots for the different turret classes, it is quite clear that they are essentially the same, just with different scales. The main differences are the tachyon and the 125mm railgun. Essentially, the Tachyon Beam Laser (which has no predecessor) has taken the place of the successor of the low-end lasers -- Gatling Pulse Laser and Quad Light Beam Laser. While this might seem a bad move at first (removing the most grid efficient laser), the amarr can easily afford the grid of the better lasers. So it seems a bit odd that the Gatling Pulse Laser and the Quad Light Beam Laser extist in the first place. Surely a predecessor to the Tachyon Beam Laser would be better. The small hybrid class has 6 turrets, but unfortunately the 125mm railgun has no successor (the dual 150mm rail is the successor of the 75mm Gatling rail!). This is unfortunate since there's no middle ground between the underpowered (but very economical) 150mm/dual 250mm railguns and the highpowered 250mm/425mm railguns. <end>
Cell Satimo	Posted - 2003.12.04 11:54:00 - [33] Briliant work. Small Request: Could you please label all the axis in your diagrams? \| Join eve-webring.com to promote your site.
Teeth	Posted - 2003.12.05 04:28:00 - [34] Sticky this ;-)
dalman	Posted - 2003.12.05 10:51:00 - [35] Quote: Briliant work. Small Request: Could you please label all the axis in your diagrams? It's not hard to figure out... Y-axis is damage/second from 1 turret against 0 resistance. X-axis is range in km. M.I.A. since 2004-07-30
xeno calligan	Posted - 2003.12.06 16:58:00 - [36] Quote: Small Request: Could you please label all the axis in your diagrams? Update: All graphs that do not show DPS (hp/s) as function of range (km) have been properly labeled.
Ylang Star	Posted - 2004.02.12 00:14:00 - [37] One of the best thread ever! "I don't suffer from insanity. I enjoy every minute of it."
Qutsemnie	Posted - 2004.02.12 01:06:00 - [38] Edited by: Qutsemnie on 12/02/2004 01:09:19 Awesome. I had the inside range thing all screwed up.
drunkenmaster	Posted - 2004.02.12 09:48:00 - [39] Fantastic work. I'd like to see how a tempest w/800's matches up against a mega with neutrons, though :) .
DREAMWORKS	Posted - 2004.02.12 12:56:00 - [40] @_@ Ugh, i wish i paid more attention at math classes the stupid fark i am. Beeing dutchy doesn¦t make it any easier to get the whole explenation about it, heh ^^ should have paid more attention during the colour explanation if we ever had that . But thanks for giving me food to read before going to bed. __________________________ http://www.nin.com/visuals/thtf_hi.html
DREAMWORKS	Posted - 2004.02.12 13:06:00 - [41] Quote: Quote: Briliant work. Small Request: Could you please label all the axis in your diagrams? It's not hard to figure out... Y-axis is damage/second from 1 turret against 0 resistance. X-axis is range in km. Hey, thats one thing i did know.. Gues i didnt sleep all the time after all __________________________ http://www.nin.com/visuals/thtf_hi.html
Adliger Krieger	Posted - 2004.02.12 13:24:00 - [42] The Hybrid range bonus is actually great on a Raven. It is obviously a close range ship because of how slow missiles and Torps are. You can fit Neutron Blaster Cannons on it and combined with Skill , ship bonus, and a tracking computer get some pretty good range out of it. 15-20k ish and those guns wreck.
Busko Moonwalker	Posted - 2004.02.12 13:34:00 - [43] lol but how do i read the charts maybe its cristal clear for everyone else :D but i feel a bit a bit of help would be nice :D
xeno calligan	Posted - 2004.02.15 16:30:00 - [44] Edited by: xeno calligan on 04/06/2004 17:07:33 Edited by: xeno calligan on 15/02/2004 16:35:52 Thanks for the comments Just a reminder: the post was based on an old patch, so the graphs are a bit out of date. In particular: Hybrid charges got a boost of +4 kinetic damage Heavy and siege launchers had their refire time increased from 16sec to 20sec. Autocannons got a damage boost of 20-40% and 2km more falloff. Blasters got 4km extra falloff. drunkenmaster wrote: Quote: I'd like to see how a tempest w/800's matches up against a mega with neutrons, though :) Patch 1389 plots for a tempest using autocannons and gallente ships using blasters: Legend Blue - Dual 425mm Autocannon (Tempest) Magenta - Dual 650mm repeating artillery (Tempest) Red - 800mm repeating artillery (Tempest) Green - Dual Heavy Ion Blaster (Gallente ship) Green/cyan - Ion Blaster Cannon (Gallente ship) Cyan - Neutron Blaster Cannon (Gallente ship) If you can afford swapping a cap power relay for a counter ballanced mod (seeing as the projectiles use virtually no cap), you can cover most of the ground up to the blasters: Busko Moonwalker wrote: Quote: lol but how do i read the charts maybe its cristal clear for everyone else :D but i feel a bit a bit of help would be nice :D The DPS graphs show the expected average damage per second (before resistances) as a function of range, under the assumption that the transversal speed is 0m/s (e.g. both your target and your ship have stopped). So using the graphs above, you can read from the graphs that at 10 km range, the Neutron Blaster Cannon (the cyan colored graph) has a damage troughput of roughly 28hp/sec (if you have all relevant skills at lvl 4 and you're not using damage mods). The Ion Blaster cannon has only 21hp/sec, so you can see how the difference in efficiency between the two turrets becomes greater as the range increases.
Karsten	Posted - 2004.02.15 16:59:00 - [45] Edited by: Karsten on 15/02/2004 17:04:47 Edited by: Karsten on 15/02/2004 17:01:45 Thank you for this great analysis!!! you did a fantastic job Karsten Karsten "All your ISK belong to the Viking Brewery"
drunkenmaster	Posted - 2004.02.18 00:08:00 - [46] my own graph! I feel special. <3 .
Vvlaam	Posted - 2004.02.18 07:57:00 - [47] wow, impressive work! --------- B.L.O.U.P
T'el'Alana Luathin	Posted - 2004.02.18 10:44:00 - [48] A very interesting post. I'm very much looking forward to hearing about tracking, as one cannot ignore it. I have a sneaky suspicion gallentes will pop out infront. I'm guessing you'll have to do all your tracking experiments within optimal range. I was wondering if you could check out one thing, how much damage does a mega with neutron blasters do against an apoc with shield wards against the damage types of the neutrons at close range? Keep up the good work :) T.L. -- always look on the bright side of the cloning facility.
Shin Taka	Posted - 2004.02.18 16:48:00 - [49] Fantastic post. Shameless bumpage too. :p ----------- Keeper of the Wombat 2004.09.03 00:42:20notifyTraining of the skill Repair Systems lvl 6 has been completed.
OmegaTron	Posted - 2004.02.18 17:33:00 - [50] holy crapness thats awsome dude wow ------------------------------------------------ A Plague is comming....
OmegaTron	Posted - 2004.02.18 17:35:00 - [51] i vote this to be a "sticky" bump ------------------------------------------------ A Plague is comming....
GunnyP	Posted - 2004.02.18 23:12:00 - [52] Wow, just wow... great work! Thank you very much. I also vot for this to be sticky...
Zzyxx	Posted - 2004.02.20 15:32:00 - [53] Vote for sticky so nobody miss this tread! /Z --------------------------- The silverpilot in a Muninn
NoNamium	Posted - 2004.03.13 21:26:00 - [54] Hi, Xeno! I have a hard time distingushing the colors on the graphs , so is it possible to make dotted/stapled and filled lines in the same color. Also maybe naming the colors from top to bottom beginning with the first color top of the y-axis. I'm reading this in 1280x960 and the colors become very similar when there are 8-10 of them. This is great work (and a tremendous effort) from an old university friend of mine - Xeno Calligan See you In Space
Theladon	Posted - 2004.03.26 08:21:00 - [55] Would be awesome to have access to this analasys in a bit better resolution on a webpage somewhere...
Theladon	Posted - 2004.03.26 08:22:00 - [56] Oh....And please make this a sticky..:)
NoNamium	Posted - 2004.04.04 06:22:00 - [57] oh, yeah... sticky, please?
Outcastino	Posted - 2004.04.04 12:12:00 - [58] Edited by: Outcastino on 04/04/2004 17:07:23 Nevermind, something silly was written here :p -------------------------------------------- I love the smell off cookies in the morning, smells like victory!
Jin'Bing Ju	Posted - 2004.04.04 15:35:00 - [59] Very nice. Can we see a DPS versus Cap Usage Graph?
TrailBlazer	Posted - 2004.06.04 09:28:00 - [60] I know it is a old topic, but the data is good but the images are not working. Is there a mirror somewhere? --- There are two kinds of people, those who do the work and those who take credit. Try to be in the first group, there is less competition there.
Ithildin	Posted - 2004.06.04 10:53:00 - [61] Yeah, I am very intrested in the images, but it seem Angelfire is not a reliable host. -- If TC causes you discomfort that you feel is unwarranted or may be outside TC's current contract - contact me, please.
Matrix Aran	Posted - 2004.06.04 14:00:00 - [62] Is it just me but do all those nice images say Image hosted by angelfire?
xeno calligan	Posted - 2004.06.04 17:18:00 - [63] Edited by: xeno calligan on 04/06/2004 17:21:03 Unfortunately angelfire has changed it's policy for hosting images and now forbid deeplinks. The images have been rehosted at home.no. A zip archive can be downloaded here. Enjoy it while you can -- as mentioned in the devblog the falloff curve will change with the next patch (and there will no longer be a constant chance to get wrecking hits either), so the graphs will be deprecated by then.
Isonkon Serikain	Posted - 2004.06.05 07:50:00 - [64] Are you guys for effin real? This study is completely invalid because one variable was NOT taken into account... The sound and lightshow your guns make when you fire them... That has to count for how bad ass your guns are. Case closed.
number 258	Posted - 2004.06.05 17:10:00 - [65] Very nice work xeno this will help me a lot. but is this including small guns?(forgive me if i missed that part) long live the Taranis!!!

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