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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 5 post(s)
Rieger VaunBraun Crazy Canucks	Posted - 2007.01.03 18:01:00 - [1] Edited by: Rieger VaunBraun on 03/01/2007 18:01:44 I figured this was the best place to ask this question. I have three wonderful EVE players. Player A war decs Player B. So now they can pound the ever loving crap out of each other at gates and in high sec without Concord getting involved. Now, if Player C, who is not at war with Player B is in a gang with player A. As I understand it C is not allowed to fire upon Player B without getting blasted by the authorities. That is all well and good, but what if Player C, being a rare breed, flies a Logistics Ship and is repping Player A? Does this cause the same hostile fire from sentry guns and Concord? Thanks for helping a poor carebear understand the rules and regulations of war.

Jiekon	Posted - 2007.01.03 19:02:00 - [2] if anyone remote reps someones war target, the person at war with said target can legally kill them. Also, if someone joins a gang with someone who is at war, they also become a legal target. BUT they cannot shoot back unless they are attacked first. FINALLY: If you remote rep a criminal (-5 or lower) then you will be global criminally flagged resulting in concordokken, sentry gun fire and everyone being able to kill you. (if i'm right, you will also take a security status hit for aiding a criminal) ___________________________ ~Jiekon Known Issues Bug Reporting Guides for new Revelations Features ███████████████ ███████████████ ███████████████ ███████████████ ███████████████

Alumion Amarr Dragons of the Twilight Sun	Posted - 2007.01.03 19:13:00 - [3] Edited by: Alumion on 03/01/2007 19:14:39 Originally by: Jiekon BUT they cannot shoot back unless they are attacked first. This is somewhat misleading, I guess you mean they cannot open fire, but they can return fire - technically this means they can shoot back all right ---- I just noticed I'm talking back to a dev /hides ------ "Scammers, pirates and ore thieves, the only thing that stands between us, and World of Warcraft. God save you all." - Kublai
Rieger VaunBraun Crazy Canucks	Posted - 2007.01.03 19:45:00 - [4] Edited by: Rieger VaunBraun on 03/01/2007 19:45:31 Originally by: Jiekon FINALLY: If you remote rep a criminal (-5 or lower) then you will be global criminally flagged resulting in concordokken, sentry gun fire and everyone being able to kill you. (if i'm right, you will also take a security status hit for aiding a criminal) Thank you for your quick responses, both Jiekon and Alumion. So then if I am in a gang, that has engaged a war target, I can assist members of my gang even though I am unable to fire upon the target? (as long as he is not a criminal) Thank you very much for the clarification.
El Verbatim	Posted - 2007.01.03 20:44:00 - [5] Edited by: El Verbatim on 03/01/2007 20:45:17 Originally by: Jiekon (if i'm right, you will also take a security status hit for aiding a criminal) yep, I can confirm that, Remote Repping a -5 or lower (who hasn't done anything wrong last 15 mins) gives you a sec hit. Gangmate got a -0.25% sec hit when repping me.
Kuolematon Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.04 07:12:00 - [6] I lost Zealot once because outsiders joined our little skirmish against WT's in hisec. Somehow he was able to shoot me before I shot him .. but it was very intense fight with people flying and dying around me .. "It's great being Amarr, ain't it?Ö" "A world without pain"
Daykin Naib Minmatar FightClub TQ	Posted - 2007.01.04 09:53:00 - [7] Originally by: Jiekon FINALLY: If you remote rep a criminal (-5 or lower) then you will be global criminally flagged resulting in concordokken, sentry gun fire and everyone being able to kill you. (if i'm right, you will also take a security status hit for aiding a criminal) Was this also meant to include the fact that you cant remote rep corp mates that are outlaws without getting flagged and sentry fire on you. Tbh I find that fact slightly ridiculous that you cant assist corp m8s without getting flagged. They are afterall in your corp .....
Rashmika Clavain Gallente Revelation Space	Posted - 2007.01.04 09:57:00 - [8] Originally by: Daykin Naib Originally by: Jiekon FINALLY: If you remote rep a criminal (-5 or lower) then you will be global criminally flagged resulting in concordokken, sentry gun fire and everyone being able to kill you. (if i'm right, you will also take a security status hit for aiding a criminal) Was this also meant to include the fact that you cant remote rep corp mates that are outlaws without getting flagged and sentry fire on you. Tbh I find that fact slightly ridiculous that you cant assist corp m8s without getting flagged. They are afterall in your corp ..... In the context of aiding criminal corp mates, do you really find it rediculous that you cannot aid a known criminal without the potential for a police response?
Daykin Naib Minmatar FightClub TQ	Posted - 2007.01.04 10:22:00 - [9] Originally by: Rashmika Clavain In the context of aiding criminal corp mates, do you really find it rediculous that you cannot aid a known criminal without the potential for a police response? Well assuming that is the intention of ccp then I guess its just another issue we have to endure with the profession being pirates as it limits our ability to work together as a group which one could argue were the reason we wanted to be in the same corp in the first place.
OldPueblo Gallente The Fantastically Pantless Sporkmen	Posted - 2007.01.05 01:23:00 - [10] Edited by: OldPueblo on 05/01/2007 01:23:41 Here's a good writeup to back up what's already been said: Flagging & Aggression
Damien Smith Turbulent Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.05 14:08:00 - [11] Originally by: Daykin Naib Was this also meant to include the fact that you cant remote rep corp mates that are outlaws without getting flagged and sentry fire on you. Tbh I find that fact slightly ridiculous that you cant assist corp m8s without getting flagged. They are afterall in your corp ..... Don't waste your breath Daykin. Everytime an argument is made regarding someone assisting an outlawed but not criminaly flagged corpmate the 'bears spam the thread with "but you're aiding a criminal lolz!1!". No one cares that outlaws sometimes fight war targets, or just need repping while safespotted, doing missions or whatever. No one even sees the big hole in their argument that if this outlaw is so evil and repping him brings insta-death to any good samaritan who wants to help them, then why don't sentries fire on them on sight? Everyone seems to think every outlaw who argues for this 'game mechanic' to be fixed just wants to create logistics boosted gatecamps, yet fails to see how this would be impossible if the decision to flag the assistee would be made on whether or not the outlaw was criminally flagged or not, as it should be. If they were gatecamping then they'd be criminally flagged, and then helpers would get sentrypwned as you'd expect. They don't see the problem with an outlaw sitting on a gate, not flagged, not aggressed, then having a corpmate go to repair him, and the helper gets instapopped. To them that's perfectly logical and normal. Strange eh? ----------- Join channel 'Turby' or die! (bring pie) I <3 carebears on toast ^^ - Xorus I'll trade you some carebears for some sheep -Tirg
Xendie Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2007.01.05 14:36:00 - [12] Edited by: Xendie on 05/01/2007 14:37:03 Originally by: Jiekon FINALLY: If you remote rep a criminal (-5 or lower) then you will be global criminally flagged resulting in concordokken, sentry gun fire and everyone being able to kill you. (if i'm right, you will also take a security status hit for aiding a criminal) and now the question comes... is the boosting person supposed to become globally criminally flagged and get a sec hit when the criminal is not globally criminally flagged except for him being -5? i have personally seen this happen and if it is not supposed to do that then you got a bug to squash. Quote: Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?
Damien Smith Turbulent Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.05 21:11:00 - [13] Originally by: Xendie Edited by: Xendie on 05/01/2007 14:37:03 Originally by: Jiekon FINALLY: If you remote rep a criminal (-5 or lower) then you will be global criminally flagged resulting in concordokken, sentry gun fire and everyone being able to kill you. (if i'm right, you will also take a security status hit for aiding a criminal) and now the question comes... is the boosting person supposed to become globally criminally flagged and get a sec hit when the criminal is not globally criminally flagged except for him being -5? i have personally seen this happen and if it is not supposed to do that then you got a bug to squash. The general consensus is that it's 'supposed to happen' and 'not a bug'. Denying outlaws from using the same tactics as everyone else is perfectly normal, even against non-criminally flagged outlaws. That's carebear logic for you... ----------- Join channel 'Turby' or die! (bring pie) I <3 carebears on toast ^^ - Xorus I'll trade you some carebears for some sheep -Tirg
Christopher Dalran	Posted - 2007.01.05 22:38:00 - [14] If you join a gang with someone who is a war target you get a nice little message telling you that anyone who is at war with the person you are joining with will be able to shoot you. This DOES NOT work both ways, a war target cannot go parading around getting help from any random people to assist them in the war. You will NOT be able to attack any of your gang mates war targets untill they fire on you first, if they do fire on you then you can defend yourself to your hearts content (but you cannot defend the initial war target or anyone else in your gang). As far as deciding wether or not to remote repair someone just be aware that all parties with kill rights on the person you assist will now have kill rights on you (but you will NOT have agaisn them so you must still wait to be attacked first). So if you repair someone who has concord after them (for ANY REASON whatsoever) they will immediatly attack you aswell.

Jiekon	Posted - 2007.01.06 12:30:00 - [15] CONCORD has made it a crime to aid an outlaw in any scenario, corp mate or not. So aiding an outlaw will result in a sec hit and flagging for performing a criminal act. Perfectly logical in my opinion, whether they are a corp mate or not. ___________________________ ~Jiekon Known Issues Bug Reporting Guides for new Revelations Features ███████████████ ███████████████ ███████████████ ███████████████ ███████████████

ScreamingLord Sutch Hand in Mouth	Posted - 2007.01.06 13:19:00 - [16] Originally by: Damien Smith Don't waste your breath Daykin. Everytime an argument is made regarding someone assisting an outlawed but not criminaly flagged corpmate the 'bears spam the thread with "but you're aiding a criminal lolz!1!". Strange eh? I don't agree with you. I'm not a bear. Strange eh?
Damien Smith Turbulent Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.06 15:17:00 - [17] Edited by: Damien Smith on 06/01/2007 15:14:02 Originally by: ScreamingLord Sutch Originally by: Damien Smith Don't waste your breath Daykin. Everytime an argument is made regarding someone assisting an outlawed but not criminaly flagged corpmate the 'bears spam the thread with "but you're aiding a criminal lolz!1!". Strange eh? I don't agree with you. I'm not a bear. Strange eh? So you think that it's perfectly logical for someone remote assisting an unflagged outlaw to be killed by sentries, while the outlaw he's assisting isn't harmed in any way, shape or form? How does that make any sense? ----------- Join channel 'Turby' or die! (bring pie) I <3 carebears on toast ^^ - Xorus I'll trade you some carebears for some sheep -Tirg
Jia Yan Blazing Angels Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2007.01.06 21:17:00 - [18] Originally by: Rashmika Clavain Originally by: Daykin Naib Originally by: Jiekon FINALLY: If you remote rep a criminal (-5 or lower) then you will be global criminally flagged resulting in concordokken, sentry gun fire and everyone being able to kill you. (if i'm right, you will also take a security status hit for aiding a criminal) Was this also meant to include the fact that you cant remote rep corp mates that are outlaws without getting flagged and sentry fire on you. Tbh I find that fact slightly ridiculous that you cant assist corp m8s without getting flagged. They are afterall in your corp ..... In the context of aiding criminal corp mates, do you really find it rediculous that you cannot aid a known criminal without the potential for a police response? The REALLY stupid is that you get globally flagged (and therefore sentried, even when the outlaw is not - someone in CCP really was on a no-brainer day when they thought that one up )
Daykin Naib Minmatar FightClub TQ	Posted - 2007.01.07 13:42:00 - [19] Originally by: Jiekon CONCORD has made it a crime to aid an outlaw in any scenario, corp mate or not. So aiding an outlaw will result in a sec hit and flagging for performing a criminal act. Perfectly logical in my opinion, whether they are a corp mate or not. So logic is when you aid a outlaw corp m8 fighting in this case a wartarget in low sec where the reach of concord/police should be very limited that you will get flagged and sentry fire on you when the outlaw corp mate aint flagged in anyway. You can shoot the same wartarget but you cant aid your own corp mate. To me that logic is kinda on a edge to say the least. Wouldnt it just be easier to flag outlaws the second they undock with this kind of logic?
Zacheria Malfor Gallente FightClub TQ	Posted - 2007.01.07 17:23:00 - [20] Unfortunately the remote repairing issue has been a major problem for us in our recent wars as we tend to fight outnumbered and up close, meaning we try to fit to compliment each other and seen as adding sentry tanking aswell as tanking the war targets if you wish to repair your corp mate it sort of defeats the point, but i'd say it's fairly obvious that this matter isn't up for debate given the replies. But I am on the boat where if the criminal isnt flagged and is a corp mate... what is the issue with him receiving aid be it remote repairing, cap transfer or shield transfer. The majority of pirate corps in my experience tend to be much smaller than the majority of the war targets they will go for which restricts tactics when it comes to fighting toe-to-toe battles and given that logistics are effectively rendered useless when an outlaw that relegates yet another tactic to the garbage pile. Do not fear the reaper, for death is the only certainty in life.

Jiekon	Posted - 2007.01.07 20:05:00 - [21] outlaws ARE flagged the instant they undock, that's what the little red flashy icon means. Sentry guns respond ONLY to agression, sec status changes and criminal acts. Sentry guns are not in place to kill outlaws, they are there to prevent crime. Empire Police forces will actively hunt any outlaw who enters their space in 0.5+ Empire Police forces do not patrol low security space. ___________________________ ~Jiekon Known Issues Bug Reporting Guides for new Revelations Features ███████████████ ███████████████ ███████████████ ███████████████ ███████████████

Daykin Naib Minmatar FightClub TQ	Posted - 2007.01.07 22:30:00 - [22] Originally by: Jiekon outlaws ARE flagged the instant they undock, that's what the little red flashy icon means. Sentry guns respond ONLY to agression, sec status changes and criminal acts. Sentry guns are not in place to kill outlaws, they are there to prevent crime. Empire Police forces will actively hunt any outlaw who enters their space in 0.5+ Empire Police forces do not patrol low security space. what I meant with being flagged was sentry fire on them the second they undock as that is the kinda logic you are refering to. You dont have to tell me the rules that this game currently have as i have been playing for 3+ years now. What I am doing is questioning the logic behind the flagging system that have been around for ages while the game have changed alot. These days the game is alot about team effort and in this particular case im questioning the fact you cant aid a corp m8 who is an outlaw in a situation where he havent attacked a so called innocent party but a wartarget. But with the current system Im not allowed to aid him with remote repping or other similiar means without getting myself flagged and therefore sentry fire on me, reminding this is going on in low sec which should be pretty lawless area. But still somehow it becomes a 'criminal act' to aid your own corp m8 in this 'lawless' area to the extent of only having 2 sentries 150+ km from the gate. So it is the logic behind this particular 'crime' im questioning.
Ennis Metara Gallente JASDIP	Posted - 2007.01.07 22:42:00 - [23] Since when do logic and justice have anything to do with one another? As far as I can tell, the more advanced and complex we get, the less sense our legal systems seem to make. Maybe what we need is a new mini-profession: the space lawyer.
ScreamingLord Sutch Hand in Mouth	Posted - 2007.01.07 22:55:00 - [24] Originally by: Damien Smith So you think that it's perfectly logical for someone remote assisting an unflagged outlaw to be killed by sentries, while the outlaw he's assisting isn't harmed in any way, shape or form? How does that make any sense? Jiekon explained it very nicely tbh.
Damien Smith Turbulent Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.07 23:03:00 - [25] Originally by: Jiekon outlaws ARE flagged the instant they undock. No, they aren't. If they were globally criminally flagged then sentries would open fire on them on sight, which they don't. Therefore they aren't flagged. No sentries firing, no aggression timer in the top left, nothing. Anyone assisting an unflagged outlaw becomes flagged, but the outlaw doesn't. That's what we're talking about. If sentries only engage on aggression, sec status changes or criminal acts, then why do sentries a few systems over fire on you if you've travelled over there cloaked? You haven't aggressed, there is no sec status change, or no criminal act (since the one you were flagged for). The difference is that you are FLAGGED. When you are flagged sentries fire on sight, therefore outlaws aren't flagged as soon as they undock because the sentries don't fire unless the outlaw has a current global criminal countdown or has a flag to the station he's near. ----------- Join channel 'Turby' or die! (bring pie) I <3 carebears on toast ^^ - Xorus I'll trade you some carebears for some sheep -Tirg
Samirol Turbulent Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.07 23:09:00 - [26] Originally by: Jiekon outlaws ARE flagged the instant they undock, that's what the little red flashy icon means. Please show me the aggression timer There is absolutely no reason why I shouldnt be able to remote repair a corpmate without getting flagged. Tier 2 BS Lotto Contact mach'ett3 for all your sig needs
Rashmika Clavain Gallente Revelation Space	Posted - 2007.01.08 12:45:00 - [27] Edited by: Rashmika Clavain on 08/01/2007 12:44:25 If he is under -5, you're aiding and abetting a known criminal. As such you should be flagged for assisting a wanted criminal, corp mate or otherwise. I do agree though, that there does seem to be a discrepancy in the logic of how it works.
Damien Smith Turbulent Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.08 14:26:00 - [28] Originally by: Hippoking@Scrapheap Forums It's like the Sheriff of Nottingham goes and raids the Inn where Robin Hood is staying, arrests the Innkeep for aiding and abetting, and then holds the door open for Mr Hood to leave. Couldn't have said it better myself... ----------- Join channel 'Turby' or die! (bring pie) I <3 carebears on toast ^^ - Xorus I'll trade you some carebears for some sheep -Tirg

Jiekon	Posted - 2007.01.09 09:50:00 - [29] Originally by: Damien Smith Originally by: Hippoking@Scrapheap Forums It's like the Sheriff of Nottingham goes and raids the Inn where Robin Hood is staying, arrests the Innkeep for aiding and abetting, and then holds the door open for Mr Hood to leave. Couldn't have said it better myself... Not entirely true, the sherrif and his men don't take part in the aprehension. it's the local people throwing stones. or in eve terms: Concord stays out of it. the sentry guns owned by the "local faction" decide to shoot you for aiding a criminal. ___________________________ ~Jiekon Known Issues Bug Reporting Guides for new Revelations Features ███████████████ ███████████████ ███████████████ ███████████████ ███████████████

Djerin Obsidian Exploration Services The Pentagram	Posted - 2007.01.09 10:12:00 - [30] I don't get the complaining. Outlaws are not gonna hunt anything in hisec anyways, because they are gonna get shot there. So the whole thing only applies to lowsec (0.1 - 0.4). Now some people are whining for getting flagged. Dudes, you're going there on purpose, because you know your mate is an outlaw and therefor can't go to hisec. So infact you are taking part in avoiding police forces and aiding a criminal. Why don't you see the consequences? And by the way: you could easily go to 0.0 anytimes. No flagging here...
Zacheria Malfor Gallente FightClub TQ	Posted - 2007.01.09 11:55:00 - [31] Originally by: Jiekon Not entirely true, the sherrif and his men don't take part in the aprehension. it's the local people throwing stones. or in eve terms: Concord stays out of it. the sentry guns owned by the "local faction" decide to shoot you for aiding a criminal. If that is the case surely standings should play a bigger part for example if you were to have faction standings past a certain level maybe the authorities would turn a blind eye? (for example bounty hunters live in a sort of grey zone at times in real life.) Do not fear the reaper, for death is the only certainty in life.
Zacheria Malfor Gallente FightClub TQ	Posted - 2007.01.09 12:06:00 - [32] Originally by: Djerin I don't get the complaining. Outlaws are not gonna hunt anything in hisec anyways, because they are gonna get shot there. So the whole thing only applies to lowsec (0.1 - 0.4). Now some people are whining for getting flagged. Dudes, you're going there on purpose, because you know your mate is an outlaw and therefor can't go to hisec. So infact you are taking part in avoiding police forces and aiding a criminal. Why don't you see the consequences? And by the way: you could easily go to 0.0 anytimes. No flagging here... Please take the time to re-read the thread and think before posting. The argument is over outlaws assisting each other by using logistical items such as remote armor reps without getting flagged as long as the person they are repairing is not flagged. By your logic anyone with -5 sec or lower wanting to use remote reps or similar modules to assist each other against war targets should move into 0.0 which sort of defeats the entire point of initiating the war in the first place. Do not fear the reaper, for death is the only certainty in life.
Damien Smith Turbulent Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.09 12:36:00 - [33] Edited by: Damien Smith on 09/01/2007 12:34:09 Originally by: Jiekon Not entirely true, the sherrif and his men don't take part in the aprehension. it's the local people throwing stones. or in eve terms: Concord stays out of it. the sentry guns owned by the "local faction" decide to shoot you for aiding a criminal. Who is talking about Concord? Concord stay out of it because it's low sec. What this all boils down to is the fact that any assister gets nuked by sentries (it's hardly the 'local faction' if every single sentry in the game opens fire on sight) while the unflagged outlaw can just wander off without a scratch on him. That's the part that makes no sense. How can someone be punished for aiding a criminal if that criminal can then just laugh at the assistee getting blown up and fly away without a scratch on him? Are we really supposed to believe that these sentry guns watch everyone going past and say "That one's an outlaw, but hold fire because he's not flagged" "That's one's an outlaw too, but hold fire, he's not flagged either" "Quick! That neutral guy just repaired an outlaw! Waste him!" Boom "Good work, he's down" "Ok, looking for new targets... Nope, they're all unflagged, hold your fire" I mean wtf? ----------- Join channel 'Turby' or die! (bring pie) I <3 carebears on toast ^^ - Xorus I'll trade you some carebears for some sheep -Tirg

Jiekon	Posted - 2007.01.09 14:45:00 - [34] Anyways, the powers that be decided this is how it's gonna be. Time for me to leave this thread, o/. ___________________________ ~Jiekon Known Issues Bug Reporting Guides for new Revelations Features ███████████████ ███████████████ ███████████████ ███████████████ ███████████████

Daykin Naib Minmatar FightClub TQ	Posted - 2007.01.09 15:05:00 - [35] Originally by: Jiekon Not entirely true, the sherrif and his men don't take part in the aprehension. it's the local people throwing stones. or in eve terms: Concord stays out of it. the sentry guns owned by the "local faction" decide to shoot you for aiding a criminal. Well wouldnt the sentries be considered put there by the local authority as I doubt a whole solar system wouldnt have any kind of authority controlling things ergo just like the sheriff of nottingham would have been in nottingham ? And if not, why does the 'local people' want any involvement in an issue they aint part of as we aint engaging any of their assets. What we are doing is aiding a corp mate in a war that concord have approved of. And then we can discuss the whole standing issue what if the guy the aiding even have a high positive standing towards the local faction why doesnt they just say; uhh we love that guy, he has done alot of excellent work for us. Instead of damn that guy who has been extremely loyal to us is aiding his outlaw corp mate in a situation absolutely none of our business, lets wtf kill him! but dont harm the outlaw friend. What I meant with this kind of logic the second outlaws undock they should have sentries on them. Tbh the whole flagging system needs to be looked into as it has become outdated in many ways and this is one.
Daykin Naib Minmatar FightClub TQ	Posted - 2007.01.09 15:09:00 - [36] Originally by: Jiekon Anyways, the powers that be decided this is how it's gonna be. Time for me to leave this thread, o/. Well a good thing we tried to argue for a better system, looks like it really does make a difference.....
Dezzereth Two Swords Guild	Posted - 2007.01.09 15:34:00 - [37] Originally by: Daykin Naib Originally by: Jiekon Anyways, the powers that be decided this is how it's gonna be. Time for me to leave this thread, o/. Well a good thing we tried to argue for a better system, looks like it really does make a difference..... Logical arguments are wasted when talking to CCP or a representative. Bringing out valid points and criticism is mostly ignored. Whine about something bad happening to you repeatedly (getting ganked by pirates, scammed on escrow,.. ), even if you were the one making the mistake and, even after some time, you will be heard and the game changed according to your desires. That is how things work.
Vistilantus Caldari Miner Protection Guild	Posted - 2007.01.09 15:46:00 - [38] Originally by: Dezzereth Originally by: Daykin Naib Originally by: Jiekon Anyways, the powers that be decided this is how it's gonna be. Time for me to leave this thread, o/. Well a good thing we tried to argue for a better system, looks like it really does make a difference..... Logical arguments are wasted when talking to CCP or a representative. Bringing out valid points and criticism is mostly ignored. Whine about something bad happening to you repeatedly (getting ganked by pirates, scammed on escrow,.. ), even if you were the one making the mistake and, even after some time, you will be heard and the game changed according to your desires. That is how things work. Example of a Logical Argument here (likely to get looked at and considered by CCP) Example of whine : most posts in this thread. Construct your argument logically like in the post above, examine both sides, show why your view is better than the current system (without whining) and maybe, just maybe, someone will take it seriously. ___________________________________________________ ~Vistilantus
Daykin Naib Minmatar FightClub TQ	Posted - 2007.01.09 15:52:00 - [39] Originally by: Vistilantus Example of a Logical Argument here (likely to get looked at and considered by CCP) Example of whine : most posts in this thread. Construct your argument logically like in the post above, examine both sides, show why your view is better than the current system (without whining) and maybe, just maybe, someone will take it seriously. The majority of the posts in this thread have been valid posts in relate to the topic at hand. So instead of just throwing something out in the air and calling it whines, maybe you should actually read what have been said and then argue why you think they are whines. Otherwise well I think you should leave the same way you came in.
Vistilantus Caldari Miner Protection Guild	Posted - 2007.01.09 16:18:00 - [40] Ok. No point having a discussion with someone who can't take constructive critisiscm. buh bye. ___________________________________________________ ~Vistilantus
Dezzereth Two Swords Guild	Posted - 2007.01.09 16:37:00 - [41] Originally by: Vistilantus Example of a Logical Argument here (likely to get looked at and considered by CCP) Example of whine : most posts in this thread. Construct your argument logically like in the post above, examine both sides, show why your view is better than the current system (without whining) and maybe, just maybe, someone will take it seriously. Did you even take the time to read the thread? Your so called "whines"? I guess not. Fact1: Sentries shoot people who shoot other players (usually non-corp members) at a gate (or station), which they have no war with. Fact2: Outlaws may be shot freely by players. Fact3: An Outlaw is NOT shot at by sentries, if he doesn't act like mentioned in Fact1. Fact4 (Here it gets interesting, so take care): Somebody who assists an Oulaw is shot by Sentries, but the Outlaw is NOT shot (assuming he didn't break Fact1), even if the Outlaw and the assisting character are in the same corp and have a valid war with the target of the outlaw and assisting character. I really hope that you figured out by now where the logical error is, and that there is no whine in this thread, but simply a statement that the current aggression system, especially in regard of assisting outlaws, is completely inconsistent. I will summarize again for you and all the people who don't bother to read the facts in this thread: You cannot help your corpmate, who is an outlaw, in a legal war with gangsupport modules, because sentries will shoot you, (but not him) Logical to you? Well, not to me and the people pointing this flaw out. So my statement about CCP stands as it is.
Jak'ai Minmatar The Temple of Ash Ock	Posted - 2007.01.09 16:43:00 - [42] Sometimes I just don't know what's up with these forums. Jekion came in here to try and explain why a mechanic is the way it is. He's not a senior Dev, he can't make any changes to the system, he's just trying to explain the reasoning behind the system. All he gets is flamed. Fantastic - excellent way to ensure that Devs stop coming here on a daily basis. Maybe he even agrees with those that want it changed. Maybe he hates it with a burning passion. He's still a company guy and can't simply come here and say "Yeah it sucks, man I don't know what Oveur was smoking when he approved that mess". So he tried to give you the reasoning. This place is becoming more and more like the SOE boards every day and is a damn shame TBH. As screwed up as SWG was, the climate on the forums contributed to the messed up relationship too. Not saying it wouldn't have nosedived anyway - but at least it might have been a smoother landing. As is the signal to noise here is getting just as high. Damn shame.
Dezzereth Two Swords Guild	Posted - 2007.01.09 17:00:00 - [43] Originally by: Jak'ai Sometimes I just don't know what's up with these forums. Jekion came in here to try and explain why a mechanic is the way it is. He's not a senior Dev, he can't make any changes to the system, he's just trying to explain the reasoning behind the system. All he gets is flamed. Fantastic - excellent way to ensure that Devs stop coming here on a daily basis. Maybe he even agrees with those that want it changed. Maybe he hates it with a burning passion. He's still a company guy and can't simply come here and say "Yeah it sucks, man I don't know what Oveur was smoking when he approved that mess". So he tried to give you the reasoning. This place is becoming more and more like the SOE boards every day and is a damn shame TBH. As screwed up as SWG was, the climate on the forums contributed to the messed up relationship too. Not saying it wouldn't have nosedived anyway - but at least it might have been a smoother landing. As is the signal to noise here is getting just as high. Damn shame. Please point me to the post that flamed jiekon. Please. But before you do: Don't confuse an exchange of arguments with flaming. Just because somebody is of an other opinion than Jiekon (or nay other person), and tries to argue with him, he isn't flaming Jiekon (or any other person). Flaming is senseless stupidity incarnate, with only one purpose - to offend. Sorry, but I simply don't see it in this thread.
Damien Smith Turbulent Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.09 17:02:00 - [44] Originally by: Jak'ai Jekion came in here to try and explain why a mechanic is the way it is. He's not a senior Dev, he can't make any changes to the system, he's just trying to explain the reasoning behind the system. All he gets is flamed. No one's flaming him or the other devs, (well, apart from the one guy slating CCP but there's always one...) what we were having is a heated debate. Nothing wrong with that is there? I'm sure Jiekon can handle a bit of a debate without throwing his toys out of the pram. It's just a shame that some of the people in the discussion have to let the side down. ----------- Join channel 'Turby' or die! (bring pie) I <3 carebears on toast ^^ - Xorus I'll trade you some carebears for some sheep -Tirg
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2007.01.09 18:20:00 - [45] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 09/01/2007 18:18:13 Originally by: Jak'ai Sometimes I just don't know what's up with these forums. Jekion came in here to try and explain why a mechanic is the way it is. He's not a senior Dev, he can't make any changes to the system, he's just trying to explain the reasoning behind the system. All he gets is flamed. Fantastic - excellent way to ensure that Devs stop coming here on a daily basis. Maybe he even agrees with those that want it changed. Maybe he hates it with a burning passion. He's still a company guy and can't simply come here and say "Yeah it sucks, man I don't know what Oveur was smoking when he approved that mess". So he tried to give you the reasoning. This place is becoming more and more like the SOE boards every day and is a damn shame TBH. As screwed up as SWG was, the climate on the forums contributed to the messed up relationship too. Not saying it wouldn't have nosedived anyway - but at least it might have been a smoother landing. As is the signal to noise here is getting just as high. Damn shame. I wish I could put all of this in my sig. And it goes for the entire forum tbh. Please cut the devs some slack. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Allakhazam
Daykin Naib Minmatar FightClub TQ	Posted - 2007.01.09 21:37:00 - [46] Originally by: Vistilantus Ok. No point having a discussion with someone who can't take constructive critisiscm. buh bye. Ehh constructive critisiscm, you just called us all whiners nothing else. Yes very constructive...... And nobody was flaming Jiekon at all, we were just trying to have a discussion about part of the flagging system nothing else until he said that is just how it is and it aint gonna be differently. Bye.... I understand he might not have much so called influence within ccp but that was kinda an irritating way how he chose to leave this debate. Guess it cant be any differnt but i dont think anybody flamed him at any point at all. Just sad to see the whole discussion we were having derailed completely. Too bad really..
Djerin Obsidian Exploration Services The Pentagram	Posted - 2007.01.09 22:52:00 - [47] Originally by: Zacheria Malfor The argument is over outlaws assisting each other by using logistical items such as remote armor reps without getting flagged as long as the person they are repairing is not flagged. No it's not. By the way this sentence of yours doesn't make any sence. Outlaws repping each others in lowsec are infact getting flagged. According to what i read here some people are complaining about getting flagged because of repping an outlaw. Imho this is nothing but a whine and i stated earlier why i'm thinking this way.
The Socialworker Minmatar The Socialworkers	Posted - 2007.01.10 17:40:00 - [48] Stating the same opinion over and over is not debating or argueing it is whining.
Kay Brack Gallente	Posted - 2007.01.13 17:10:00 - [49] It would be interesting if CCP decided you were all correct and changed the system to include -5 players in empire sentry fire. Issue pushed equals 2 ways of fixing. 1) Make sentrys not fire on person assisting a criminal. Nightmare to code need to define legitimate and non-legitamate acts and create different flags. 2) Have sentries fire on anyone with sec -5 or less. Easy fix just add -5 players to list of aggression targets for sentries.

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