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I want more ISK farmers and EVEbayers

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Claudia Bluebell	Posted - 2007.01.05 13:16:00 - [1] I would like to present you with a different perspective to those darn ISK farmes since they have been given bad publicity lately. It all comes down to this: They are cheap labor!!!! Nobody else wants to do the tedious work of grinding astroid belts but they do! They don't want social insurance but do provide us with cheap minerals. Really, if they would all go to another server or MMO then our mineral prices would go up because our "work time" is much more expensive than theirs. For this to work we need rich EVEbayers actually buying stuff from the ISK farmers. It's a offer and demand system. These rich-first-world-noob-EVE-players then use this isk to buy some idiot ship and fly it to low-sec. Result: Free target practice with Phat Lewt! So each day I am really thankful that some people are able to pay the over-inflated prices I ask for the ships I have on market. And BTW, if you are now going to tell me that this creates inflation then you are not shooting down enough ships.
DarkMatter Amarr Mineral Aquisition Group	Posted - 2007.01.05 13:19:00 - [2] There are plenty of players/corps that would mine for a living, but it's just not profitable when macroers & farmers are undercutting you left right & center... The game would be better if there were none of them, then miners could get back to having a career, right now that career is broken because of cheaters... Newest toy for my 63 acre sandbox Building the homestead
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2007.01.05 13:20:00 - [3] Its not a new perspective, Ive seen it expressed quite a few times. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Iyanah Minmatar Mining Munitions and Mayhem	Posted - 2007.01.05 13:20:00 - [4] Originally by: Claudia Bluebell I would like to present you with a different perspective to those darn ISK farmes since they have been given bad publicity lately. It all comes down to this: They are cheap labor!!!! Nobody else wants to do the tedious work of grinding astroid belts but they do! They don't want social insurance but do provide us with cheap minerals. Really, if they would all go to another server or MMO then our mineral prices would go up because our "work time" is much more expensive than theirs. For this to work we need rich EVEbayers actually buying stuff from the ISK farmers. It's a offer and demand system. These rich-first-world-noob-EVE-players then use this isk to buy some idiot ship and fly it to low-sec. Result: Free target practice with Phat Lewt! So each day I am really thankful that some people are able to pay the over-inflated prices I ask for the ships I have on market. And BTW, if you are now going to tell me that this creates inflation then you are not shooting down enough ships. hmm, i smell tree sap... it that perhaps because you're a plant? real world trading destroys every game. buying your way to the top with mummy and daddy's platinum card is NOT how a game should work, don't like it? TS. however, i suspect you're not a buyer, but a gold farmer's propaganda account. ========================================== Iy
AngryCanuk TribalWar Inc EVE Animal Control	Posted - 2007.01.05 13:22:00 - [5] Real miners normally mine in 0.0 making a butt load more then what they could ever dream in empire, macrominers FTW
Roshan longshot Gallente Ordos Humanitas	Posted - 2007.01.05 13:27:00 - [6] Originally by: AngryCanuk Real miners normally mine in 0.0 making a butt load more then what they could ever dream in empire, macrominers FTW Really? Then the thousands that log on every day to sit in "Safe" empire and mine for two or three hours, are not 'real miners'? Free-form Professions, ensure no limetations on professions. Be a trader, fighter, industialist, researcher, hunter *pirate* or mixture of them all. [i]As read from the original box.
Roshan longshot Gallente Ordos Humanitas	Posted - 2007.01.05 13:29:00 - [7] Originally by: Claudia Bluebell I would like to present you with a different perspective to those darn ISK farmes since they have been given bad publicity lately. It all comes down to this: They are cheap labor!!!! Nobody else wants to do the tedious work of grinding astroid belts but they do! They don't want social insurance but do provide us with cheap minerals. Really, if they would all go to another server or MMO then our mineral prices would go up because our "work time" is much more expensive than theirs. For this to work we need rich EVEbayers actually buying stuff from the ISK farmers. It's a offer and demand system. These rich-first-world-noob-EVE-players then use this isk to buy some idiot ship and fly it to low-sec. Result: Free target practice with Phat Lewt! So each day I am really thankful that some people are able to pay the over-inflated prices I ask for the ships I have on market. And BTW, if you are now going to tell me that this creates inflation then you are not shooting down enough ships. Yeah...either your a fracking macro miner, or your an E-Bayer. Either way, your posting with an alt so nobody is going to pay attention to you. Free-form Professions, ensure no limetations on professions. Be a trader, fighter, industialist, researcher, hunter *pirate* or mixture of them all. [i]As read from the original box.
Claudia Bluebell	Posted - 2007.01.05 13:32:00 - [8] Originally by: AngryCanuk Real miners normally mine in 0.0 making a butt load more then what they could ever dream in empire, macrominers FTW I guess you're not mining Veldspar?
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2007.01.05 13:33:00 - [9] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 05/01/2007 13:33:32 It would be nice if we could have a discussion about this topic without the thread turning into people insulting eachother. It will only get locked. But maybe you dont want to discuss it? --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
CharlieMurphy Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2007.01.05 13:34:00 - [10] Quote: Really, if they would all go to another server or MMO then our mineral prices would go up because our "work time" is much more expensive than theirs. thats good,i want mineral prices to go up thats probably because im an honest miner imagine that !
Craefter Royal Logistics Service	Posted - 2007.01.05 13:40:00 - [11] Originally by: Roshan longshot Yeah...either your a fracking macro miner, or your an E-Bayer. Either way, your posting with an alt so nobody is going to pay attention to you. [/quote Good point. I'm neither of these. You can contact Craefter (my main char) if you want to say something to me. I'm sorry to have posted with my alt. Still, the point is that every disadvantage has also it's advantage. The glass is either half-empty or half-full. See the positive side of things. -Craefter The Kingdom has started, don't miss your chance to be part of it.
Gaven Blands	Posted - 2007.01.05 13:46:00 - [12] No, you don't need any more. You've got plenty. There are more macros/farmers in Eve than PvPers in any two of the major alliances you could care to imagine. What that tells you about how many Buyers there are is up to your own intelligence. As for mineral pricing. If the macros vanished overnight, mineral prices would sky rocket and quickly. However, if that created a problem that could not be solved by human miners alone, CCP could easily up loot drops and "nice" asteroid spawn rates. This would then help reduce mineral pricing. However, this would leave CCP with a real dollar shortfall each month. Losing a sixth, maybe a fifth of all your paid accounts puts a real dent in your share price. With all due respect, if we could increase the number of macro miners, and hence paid accounts for Eve, they could take the appropriate 1% of the extra income and spend it on development for the rest of us to enjoy. CCP could then reduce drop rates for stuff to keep mineral prices where they are now. This might be a rather elegant solution to the situation. Which basically means that over priviliged teenagers and overpaid devs with no girl to spend it on are funding the majority of the ships for the rest of us. And people with more time than we have are converting the rich mans money into in game goods. It's all very capitolist. The only thing I would ask is that the official CCP policy be made public, whatever it is chosen to be, instead of the rhetoric lip service that just says macros are bad, and then set about doing everything they can to help the macros, thinking we wouldn't notice. If your sig is the best thing you've posted, stop posting.
Miss Xuan	Posted - 2007.01.05 13:48:00 - [13] She speaks the truth. Thanks to macro miners in empire the really low end minerals go for a nice cheap price. Recently they have gone up in price slightly due to CCP deactivating a few hundred macro accounts (or that was the rumour I heard). So I thank the macro miners for providing me with free/cheap minerals. The bit about rich noobs going into low sec, I'm not sure about.
subvert	Posted - 2007.01.05 14:25:00 - [14] Originally by: Miss Xuan Recently they have gone up in price slightly due to CCP deactivating a few hundred macro accounts (or that was the rumour I heard). its a rumour, and this is how rumours spread. next we will hear the jovians caused the price increase they went up because of heavy alliance ship losses and many new ships being added to the game that require lots of low end minerals. everyone with a ferox wanted a drake, etc. - supply and demand, there was a surge in demand
Makree Ubar Asteroid Hugging Collective	Posted - 2007.01.05 14:28:00 - [15] My solution would be to get rid of ISK and make all items non tradeable. So if you want a new ship, you have to get the minerals yourself. Either by mining or as rewards for doing missions. And, yes, there are games that do not allow inter player trading. In fact I'm off to play one now.
faldo	Posted - 2007.01.05 14:34:00 - [16] i think ccp sell isk to players thro brokers then take the isk back and give u a warning this probably makes them more money than gtc's
Herculite Hunters Agency Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.01.05 14:42:00 - [17] Ummm no. What you do in game is what should matter, not how much money you make rl. Sure macros make minerals cheaper. They also make newbie mining worthless to the miners, and while my ships are cheaper, so are my enemies so its a wash there. It also means I sell my melted down mods for less, so again I gain on one end and lose on the other. If you can't see that bringing rl money into the game economy is a bad thing then there isn't much more to say.
Gaven Blands	Posted - 2007.01.05 14:43:00 - [18] Originally by: subvert they went up because of heavy alliance ship losses and many new ships being added to the game that require lots of low end minerals. everyone with a ferox wanted a drake, etc. - supply and demand, there was a surge in demand I think what subvert said is the more likely. I call one "The Drake Effect". Heavy launchers, large shield extenders, and nox prices. I call the other "The salvage effect". Tractor beam prices. Made worse by the drake effect. Perhaps people who fly other ships with different fittings may have noticed similar "Myrmidon" effects and so on. I'm quite close to the second best* source of macro information, macro hunters, and the general consensus is that CCP did ban some accounts recently. However, I'm more sceptical than the most of them. I prefer to think they are "suspended " as the chars still exist. CCP will only ban to appease, but certainly not enough to punish the farmers into farming WoW more, that doesn't make any RL economic sense at all. Those accounts will be re-activated at some point I'm pretty confident about it. If your sig is the best thing you've posted, stop posting.
DarkMatter Amarr Mineral Aquisition Group	Posted - 2007.01.05 14:45:00 - [19] Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 05/01/2007 13:33:32 It would be nice if we could have a discussion about this topic without the thread turning into people insulting eachother. It will only get locked. But maybe you dont want to discuss it? Dude, this should not even be a topic of discussion. There are ppl cheating the system, destroying the in-game economy, you don't "discuss" anything with them, about that, etc... That's akin to discussing with terrorists which buildings they can and cannot blow up in your country... Newest toy for my 63 acre sandbox Building the homestead
Rashmika Clavain Gallente Revelation Space	Posted - 2007.01.05 14:55:00 - [20] This post has helped me decide what I'm going to do tonight... steal ore from macro miners!
Angry Sheep Amarr Aur0ra	Posted - 2007.01.05 14:55:00 - [21] As a major manufacturer, I dont think macro'ers destroyed the economy. The current system is good BUT time intensive and could be called a 'grind'. I require large volumes at a low price, its all changed and I am not whining, I simply change my play style too. But I certainly think they had some positive impact. The true holders of the stats are CCP. It's a Dog eat Dog World out there and I'm wearing Milky Bone underwear
DarkMatter Amarr Mineral Aquisition Group	Posted - 2007.01.05 14:58:00 - [22] Originally by: Angry Sheep As a major manufacturer, I dont think macro'ers destroyed the economy. The current system is good BUT time intensive and could be called a 'grind'. I require large volumes at a low price, its all changed and I am not whining, I simply change my play style too. But I certainly think they had some positive impact. The true holders of the stats are CCP. Positive? You're nuts dude... Newest toy for my 63 acre sandbox Building the homestead
Gaven Blands	Posted - 2007.01.05 15:06:00 - [23] Originally by: Rashmika Clavain This post has helped me decide what I'm going to do tonight... steal ore from macro miners! anti anti macro techniques can make anti-macroing as dull as mining. Ok, so I think mining is dull, don't shoot me. I don't shoot you. Unless you mine with macros. Then I shoot you. Lots of times. Hauling for 4 hours while some farmer team switches 2 covs to service you while they farm the other ones, accepting the losses for some peace and quiet really does my nut in. Great for ore, rubbish for fun. They do that logging off crap too. They know you'll leave in 3 minutes after they log. I don't like that one. It's very rare that they actually fight back. Settle in for a long boring night. It's not for everybody. If your sig is the best thing you've posted, stop posting.
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2007.01.05 15:09:00 - [24] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 05/01/2007 15:12:40 Originally by: DarkMatter Dude, this should not even be a topic of discussion. There are ppl cheating the system, destroying the in-game economy, you don't "discuss" anything with them, about that, etc... That's akin to discussing with terrorists which buildings they can and cannot blow up in your country... You got any proof that macro miners are destroying the economy? In fact, posting stuff like that without proof is exacly why these threads never lead to anything. It just ends up being about peoples beliefs for what is good or bad for the game. Its basicly just ranting/venting. And since you brought up the terrorist example... I know exacly what country in the world that accuses people of being terrorists without having any proof whatsoever, locking them away for unknown periods of time. Who is the terrorist in those scenarios? Lets not make this about politics though, you will just end up hating my opinion. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Admai Sket	Posted - 2007.01.05 15:20:00 - [25] 1 Mill says the OP is a macroer/farmer/EVEBayer. 4$$H47. Sig removed, due to inappropriate content. Please contact [email protected] for more info (including a copy of your sig!) -wystler - Fantastic! Thanks! :)
glennkari Gallente DaHOOD Communication	Posted - 2007.01.05 16:19:00 - [26] No... just no.
DarkMatter Amarr Mineral Aquisition Group	Posted - 2007.01.05 16:24:00 - [27] Edited by: DarkMatter on 05/01/2007 16:24:34 Originally by: Jim McGregor Originally by: DarkMatter And ISK farming is political in nature (view the op's rhetoric for example, ppl always lobbying for/against it), and it's a fundamental detriment to any MMO that does not allow it, if you don't think so, we'll never agree... I do agree with that actually. I would prefer if mmorpg's didnt have farmers. Originally by: DarkMatter You should not have to prove what level of damage farming is doing to an MMO economy, it's not an intended feature of EVE, so it's against the EULA and a bannable offense. That's the only discussion that needs to take place IMO, how to ban them all. Well, no other game has successfully managed to do that either. Well, CCP said they have something in the works, and also said they have to "get the approval from the community" b4 they go ahead with it... I am eagerly awaiting to hear more about this... There has to be a way, and hopefully the player base will go along with whatever they have come up with... I'm glad they don't have the "no other game company has figured it out, why should we bother trying" attitude... I guess we'll see. IÆm hoping for total macro/farmer annihilationà Newest toy for my 63 acre sandbox Building the homestead
Roy Batty68 Caldari Immortal Dead	Posted - 2007.01.05 17:31:00 - [28] Well, it's a controversial topic. People get pretty emotional about it. The thing that gets my goat about the entire topic is not the MMs themselves, it's the normal players who start seeing MMs everywhere they look. Anyway, going to play devil's advocate here for a bit. And before anyone freaks out, I don't buy isk and I don't advocate isk sellers and macro miners. I'm just going to argue the other side because it's interesting. RL Money Shouldn't Determine Your Success O Rly? Well, what about alt accounts? That's paying extra to be able to do more as a single player. So I'm a player spending 15$ bucks a month to play one character. You're a player spending 60$ bucks a month to play four characters. You're paying 45$ more for an "advantage". What if I just spend my 15$ for my one character and use the left over 45$ to buy isk? You have your 45$ worth of advantage and I have mine. You can't say, "well my money is going to CCP" as a defense because CCP is collecting subscription fees from the MMs. So in the end my 45$ worth of advantage actually causes less lag because I'm not logging in 3 more characters to load down the servers. Gold Sellers Kill Games! Usually true, but for reasons that don't quite fit the EVE model. Usually the way gold farmers hork up games is by farming uber stuff, selling it on the player market for highish prices, and selling the resulting gold to buyers. The gold buyers aren't too put out because their time-to-gold ratio isn't a factor and they pay the high prices and go off and do their fun stuff. Because that's what it's about in the end, not having to grind. The players who don't buy gold are left facing ever increasing market prices and an ever increasing grind to catch up. OR Gold farmers simply do just that and sell the gold. The playerbase does themselves in because the market is unbalanced by people who have no realistic time-to-gold value and are again willing to pay high prices. The honest players stupidly follow the price trends trying to compete. Even if good hearted players try to bring inflation down by setting realistic prices, wise to the market resellers step in. And again the grind keeps going up until the fun is sucked out of the game. In EVE (so far anyway) it seems like the market is dynamic enough that the macro miners actually do us a favor by keeping inflation down via lower mineral prices. --------- Just a couple from the hip points tossed in for arguements sake. Now that doesn't mean that MMs don't have an adverse effect on EVE. IMO they ruin things in other ways. Actual player miners have a harder time finding resources. Full spectrum logistics aren't a factor for some alliances. Honest players victimizing other honest players because they're too caught up in their MM witch hunts. Etc.
Claudia Bluebell	Posted - 2007.01.05 17:42:00 - [29] When I said cheap labor I really meant it. This means there is a distinct difference between a macro miner and a farmer. A macro miner uses a script and a farmer sits on a computer all day, mining and selling minerals. So farmers are in fact legal players farming within the EVE rules, hardly banneble, are they? For example in Thailand people get an average of $3,- per day of hard work. I just checked, ebay ISK goes for 6.9 million isk per dollar so a poor slob in Thailand has to farm about 20.9 million each day to get a normal wage. Now be honest, it's very easy to get more than that each day so they'll be earning multiples of what the average person would get. (To be honest, I still think that they only get $3,- per EVE day and that a middle person gets very rich, but what do I know, I'm only speculating here) So to sum it up, macroers with scripts should be banned, publicly humiliated, smeared with peck and feathers and no refund for their remaining subscription time. The farmer, well, pretty hard to weed them out. As long as manual labor is involved there will always be poorer people than us trying to earn a buck and feed their family. There is a demand, they deliver. The only solution would be to make everything free. I haven't seen any farmers on a Quake server yet... (Except Quake3 Harvester but thats something else. )
Alz Shado Ever Flow Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.01.05 18:23:00 - [30] Always a fun read when these discussions come up. Anda's Game

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