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why the 2 minute timer and probing needs to go

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 1 post(s)
Ozzie Asrail FATAL REVELATIONS FATAL Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.07 13:33:00 - [31] Then dont put yourself in situations that you can't handle... If your in a system with some hostiles looking for you logging out and insta-disapearing is jsut like picking up your ball and going home because the other team might beat you. -----
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.07 13:41:00 - [32] I would like to see it that ships don't try the "emergency run away" warp when you're safe at a POS. I don't see what thats supposed to solve. The rest is fine though. Ctrl-Q is not a way of getting away from people- even if it is your legitimate bed time. -----------------------------------------------
Moominer InterGalactic Corp. Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.01.07 13:43:00 - [33] So you want to make it even easier for people to avoid non-consentual PvP? It's a one minute timer, as well. If you read the posts regarding this already it's 99.99% possible to be completely invulnerable in low security/0.0 space by abusing the non-aggression logoff timer already - see a hostile enter local, warp to a distant safespot, and logoff. This means the hostiles have to probe down your spot perfectly (pot luck) as most of the time in this instance you bust a midwarp. By the time you are out of warp there is barely enough time for the covop pilot to get to your spot, let alone get the rest of the gang there and do enough damage to kill the ship (especially if it's a large ship) If you are logging to quit the game safely in "hostile" space (0.4 or lower or empire if war target) why not log at a station/POS to be entirely safe? ___ Hostile! CTRL-Q CTRL-Q CTRL-Q ... CTRL-Q can save you from sociopath PvPers
Zhu Dark	Posted - 2007.01.07 13:51:00 - [34] Originally by: Moominer If you are logging to quit the game safely in "hostile" space (0.4 or lower or empire if war target) why not log at a station/POS to be entirely safe? Since when was logging at a POS safe?
Moominer InterGalactic Corp. Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.01.07 14:35:00 - [35] Originally by: Zhu Dark Since when was logging at a POS safe? My bad ___ Hostile! CTRL-Q CTRL-Q CTRL-Q ... CTRL-Q can save you from sociopath PvPers
bigfatbird Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.07 14:49:00 - [36] So you want to Ninja NPC in hostile space? Great, I am all for it, but how about you first try to adapt before you demand that the game gets changed to fit your playstyle? Just swap that tractorbeam or salvager for a prototype cloaking device and you will increase your chances to survive big time.
subvert	Posted - 2007.01.07 15:05:00 - [37] Originally by: bigfatbird So you want to Ninja NPC in hostile space? who said anything about npcing?
Moominer InterGalactic Corp. Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.01.07 15:13:00 - [38] Originally by: subvert who said anything about npcing? What you propose makes anyone in "hostile" space entirely invulnerable. Logging to avoid non-consentual PvP is already a major issue, and this would make it worse. You could easily fit a cloak as proposed already and leave your client ingame, or sit at a POS and leave te client ingame? Not great, I am aware. An alternative solution would be to make logging within a POS bubble not warp your ship, then you would have stations and POSes as secure logoff points. ___ Hostile! CTRL-Q CTRL-Q CTRL-Q ... CTRL-Q can save you from sociopath PvPers
Capt Rob Minmatar Black Omega Security The OSS	Posted - 2007.01.07 15:56:00 - [39] Originally by: Moominer So you want to make it even easier for people to avoid non-consentual PvP? It's a one minute timer, as well. If you read the posts regarding this already it's 99.99% possible to be completely invulnerable in low security/0.0 space by abusing the non-aggression logoff timer already - see a hostile enter local, warp to a distant safespot, and logoff. This means the hostiles have to probe down your spot perfectly (pot luck) as most of the time in this instance you bust a midwarp. By the time you are out of warp there is barely enough time for the covop pilot to get to your spot, let alone get the rest of the gang there and do enough damage to kill the ship (especially if it's a large ship) If you are logging to quit the game safely in "hostile" space (0.4 or lower or empire if war target) why not log at a station/POS to be entirely safe? this is a good example of how you are not always gona be probed if you log with no aggression, i have tried to scan down a guy who just logged and even with a very low probe duration he still disappeared before i even got into warp. There are many ways of avoiding being scaned, the op should try some of these methods before complaining that the whole system needs changing. Signature removed due to inappropriate content. -Ivan K
Kargon	Posted - 2007.01.07 16:02:00 - [40] I think it's pretty cheesy to be able to escape imminent destruction by simply logging out when someone enters your system. This makes it too easy for ninja miners/ratters/whatever. The current mechanic definitely has issues though. Some changes/fixes would definitely be appreciated. 1. Nullify the current "logout while warping" workaround by resetting the 2-minute-unaggressed timer upon exiting warp. 2. Change the 2-minute-unaggressed timer to vary based on sovereignty. If you perform an unaggressed-logout in a system owned by someone with positive standings to you, then the logout timer should be shorter. However, if you have negative standings, then the timer should be longer. This should work better if we ever get constellation sovereignty. 3. Fix logout-while-inside-POS so that your ship doesn't warp away. A POS is sortof like a station. You wouldn't undock when logging out, would you? So why would you leave a POS when logging out? On point #2, I think this adds motivation to own space -- it makes it safer for your pilots. The timer differences don't have to be drastic. If you are part of the alliance with sovereignty, then perhaps the unaggressed-timer would be 1 minute. But if you are the enemy, then maybe the timer could be 3 minutes.

Taylor timenenzi	Posted - 2007.01.07 16:45:00 - [41] Originally by: dantes inferno while i agree with the op....i also feel that eve has taken far to many roundabout steps into making pvp into a wow stlyle "player a request to pvp..." with warp to 0, making mission runners near impossible to scan and find...adding this is another step down a path i dont want to see eve take. Ya because before kali one came out we heard so much about mission runners being ganked...... wait no it started when ever gankbear had free easy kills and you can scan down a mission runner in a minute gank him and make yourself a few hundred million in a couple seconds risk free. Please people need to stop confusing pvp with "gank the pve noob who has no way to defend himself since pve setup is worthless in pvp and I just want free easy faction/officer loot with no risk while I complain on the forums about how mission runners make too much and I cant get free kills" as for the OP I agree /sign
bigfatbird Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.07 17:01:00 - [42] Originally by: Taylor timenenzi "gank the pve noob who has no way to defend himself since pve setup is worthless in pvp and I just want free easy faction/officer loot with no risk while I complain on the forums about how mission runners make too much and I cant get free kills" Just a idea: If he is such a "pve noob who has no way to defend himself", it maybe a good idea to stay out of hostile space and go rat the belts/run the missions in safespace instead.
Gorek Loc	Posted - 2007.01.07 18:38:00 - [43] I agree, leaving the game for RL should count... I'm not sure if this 'trick' is allowed or even in-game anymore, but if you log out with your character, then immediately log back in with an alt, your main will whisk out of space immediately... As I said, I'm not sure if it's a game-mechanic or a bug, but now it's in the open! .)
Skeenee Al'Ramed	Posted - 2007.01.07 19:28:00 - [44] Seems normal to be... I don't even think your ship should disapear if you leave it in space. Ships left in space should stay there. Only Station should be safe havens!
Fuujin Hadean Drive Yards	Posted - 2007.01.07 19:31:00 - [45] You could maybe anticipate for something like this and factor in when you log off? Why must everything be handed to everyone.
Quintus Sertorius Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.08 08:30:00 - [46] Originally by: Tommy TenKreds Originally by: Kusotarre Second, chances that you're just about to log off, then get stuck getting away from a dozen people who jump in, is rather unlikely, and not worth "fixing" if it breaks the ability to kill people who ctrl-Q as soon as anyone enters local. Currently, up in Venal/Tenal/Branch, we have literally a few dozen, perhaps more, noobcorp raven pilots. They NPC away, as soon as you enter local, or at least within a minute, they log off. They wait a few minutes, then come back on. This small timer allows you to kill them. It allows you to kill people who eggregiously abuse the log off system. Such people are clearly cowards. Why are they worth your concern? Do they pose a threat to your sovereignty? Unfortunately, it is not a threat to sov that they represent, it is the best guess we can make as to what they are doing that annoys us. qwert124 logs off and then aasfafsaf12 logs on 6 jumps away, also in a noob corp, also in a raven, also ratting, also ctrl-qs before you've even loaded local, and when he logs off ghghghgh1243 logs on......
glennkari Gallente DaHOOD Communication	Posted - 2007.01.08 08:59:00 - [47] Since this is something that changed with the new scan probes, then mabey CCP should look at the old logout timers. If 2 min was enough to logout safe before, a new timer should be set to logout safely with the new scanprobes. Or have a camp option that takes X time were your still in controll of your ship and can warp/fight if agressed. Or just dessapeer when the timer is up. Getting scanned and killed just because 'dinner is ready' hardly seems right.
Naran Darkmood Gallente	Posted - 2007.01.08 09:17:00 - [48] Originally by: glennkari Since this is something that changed with the new scan probes, then mabey CCP should look at the old logout timers. If 2 min was enough to logout safe before, a new timer should be set to logout safely with the new scanprobes. Or have a camp option that takes X time were your still in controll of your ship and can warp/fight if agressed. Or just dessapeer when the timer is up. Getting scanned and killed just because 'dinner is ready' hardly seems right. This sounds the most reasonable. Select 'log out of game option, you have to wait for 1 or 2 mins with 0 speed and no active module and uncloak (so not possible directly after a gatejump). As soon as you activate a modul or start moving, the counter is reset. After the timer is up, you see your ship cloak and you drop back to the Character screen. For everything else, leave the 2 min timer (or even set it to 5 mins). Don't touch the 15 min PvP timer. Also, get rid you the aggro bug, that you get a PvP timer after somebody shoots your wreck. Originally by: Jiekon From what i`m aware of, reading the game rules, it's not against any rules to mine
ArcticFox Dirty Deeds Corp. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2007.01.08 09:36:00 - [49] Edited by: ArcticFox on 08/01/2007 09:33:31 Quote: Please explain why there is a two minute timer to prevent logging out by pilots who have not been engaged in PVP. This is actually really simple. Consider the following scenario: You jump through a gate in a hauler (or battleship, or whatever). There are ten interceptors on the other side. No warp bubble, nothing that could ever be considerd a "blanket field of aggression", so you have "no agression." However, undenaibly, you're most likely **** if you stay logged in. But, oh wait, oops, you've got "no agression" so therefore you should have "no timer." All you need to do is log before you decloak and poof, you dissapear. AFAIK even with warpoff in place before you dissapear the agression timer still won't start on you once you're logged out even if they manage to scramble you. This is bad enough now, where a large ship encountering only a small gang (enough to easily beat it, not enough to insta-pop it) can log and often survive becuase they only have two minutes to kill it. If dissapearing were instant with "no agression" you couldn't do ** to blockade a system. Until this is fixed, a zero timer on no-agression logouts is a horrible idea. The problem is that "no agression" is not as cut and dry as you'd like to make it out to be. It would be nice if it were, but it really isn't. Also, the whole, logging out miles from a station or POS in 0.0. If you knew you'd have to go to sleep for work the next day, why did you stay so far away from a safe docking point right up until when you wanted to go to bed? That seems like a pretty predictable event, in fact most times when you "have to log off" are (admittedly not all, but most). What is so wrong with having to think ahead and head back early enough to dock safely and get in bed at a decent hour. -------------------------- There is only one +6 sword of WTFPWN in Eve, and only the lag is allowed to equip it.
Khes	Posted - 2007.01.08 09:46:00 - [50] Edited by: Khes on 08/01/2007 09:43:42 ArcticFox QFT!

Plutoinum German Cyberdome Corp Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2007.01.08 10:26:00 - [51] Edited by: Plutoinum on 08/01/2007 10:34:00 If you weren't allowed to log in the grid of a stargate, an asteroid belt, an exploration site at all, at least not with getting the ship removed from the server, it would help against ctrl+q abusage a lot. Then allow people logging-off everywhere else within like 15 second, like you watch a timer run down, do nothing and then you warp-off unprobable. Any input interrupts the timer. ( The timer to allow people to catch and aggress you at planets, but you'd still have the possibility to notice the incoming hostile and abort the log off timer by running away and log somewhere else like on a safespot. ) At poses let the ship stay in the pos. Problem almost solved. You could still catch people in belts, trap them at stargates, chase them to planets and try to catch them there, but once they escape to a safespot, one they had already or one they made mid-warp to planet, they would be able to log-out safely there, because nobody could probe them in those 15 seconds. CTD/con-loss vs. log-out. A proposal for a fix.
Tommy TenKreds Animal Mercantile Executive	Posted - 2007.01.08 10:36:00 - [52] Edited by: Tommy TenKreds on 08/01/2007 11:02:28 Originally by: Quintus Sertorius Unfortunately, it is not a threat to sov that they represent, it is the best guess we can make as to what they are doing that annoys us. qwert124 logs off and then aasfafsaf12 logs on 6 jumps away, also in a noob corp, also in a raven, also ratting, also ctrl-qs before you've even loaded local, and when he logs off ghghghgh1243 logs on...... I can see how that would be frustrating when you are trying to prevent people from taking liberties with your space. They still don't pose much of a threat from what you're describing, but that's not to deny that similar scenarios might occur where someone could use those tactics and present a viable threat; cyno pilots for example. So I take your point. Originally by: Tyrrax Thorrk Is there anything other than ISK you might be interested in?
Tommy TenKreds Animal Mercantile Executive	Posted - 2007.01.08 10:37:00 - [53] Originally by: ArcticFox Quote: Please explain why there is a two minute timer to prevent logging out by pilots who have not been engaged in PVP. This is actually really simple. Consider the following scenario: You jump through a gate in a hauler (or battleship, or whatever). There are ten interceptors on the other side. No warp bubble, nothing that could ever be considerd a "blanket field of aggression", so you have "no agression." However, undenaibly, you're most likely **** if you stay logged in. But, oh wait, oops, you've got "no agression" so therefore you should have "no timer." All you need to do is log before you decloak and poof, you dissapear. AFAIK even with warpoff in place before you dissapear the agression timer still won't start on you once you're logged out even if they manage to scramble you. This is bad enough now, where a large ship encountering only a small gang (enough to easily beat it, not enough to insta-pop it) can log and often survive becuase they only have two minutes to kill it. If dissapearing were instant with "no agression" you couldn't do to blockade a system. Until this is fixed, a zero timer on no-agression logouts is a horrible idea. The problem is that "no agression" is not as cut and dry as you'd like to make it out to be. It would be nice if it were, but it really isn't. Thanks for that very well placed argument. I understand your concern very clearly now. I am inclined to say that this is still a problem with the root mechanics around aggression, however. NPC's do not require an exchange of volleys to become "aggressed". I don't see why players should require contact engagement to become flagged either. Ideally, it should be sufficient that you have 'landed' in the midst of a camp to become flagged. In a perfect system, arriving in the same grid or system as hostile pilots should get you flagged. However, that altered principle would create further problems. The game has no difficulty discerning the intentions of NPC rats. The same cannot be said about players. So, on balance, I suppose the timer is a necessary evil for the reasons you have given. Originally by:** Tyrrax Thorrk Is there anything other than ISK you might be interested in?
Xer Ma'Rah SniggWaffe	Posted - 2007.01.08 10:49:00 - [54] ctrl+q is a lame way to exit out of game. i personally think they should remove it entirely and replace it with a "camping" method only usable in POS's, and actively controlled areas where your corp/alliance has sov. the warp and two minute timer should stay for those unfortunate enough to be dropped from game in a fight, however giving the player this ability is just asking for abuse. logging off should be something like: station - instant POS/sov areas - one minute wait time where no movement, mods, or warps could be activated without the count restarting. no warp or ship left behind when one is out of game. EVE crash or drop - warp off with two minute timer. this would prevent those who would just turn off their computer to avoid being ganked. i agree it does need to be changed but for different reasons. it is being abused on both ends.
gfldex	Posted - 2007.01.08 11:15:00 - [55] Edited by: gfldex on 08/01/2007 11:18:32 None of the current timers is solving any problems. If you log in empire you are protected by CONCORD. If you log in 0.0 you are protected by your friends. If there are no friends about you are not protected. And if you die you die. The log at a POS problem is indeed the most borked we got. There should be a structure to dock at and if somebody blows that structure up the ship drops out and warps to stay 15 min in space. If you choose to leave your assets unguarded in space you should risk them. Space is meant to be dangerouse. The 2nd most problem are hit and runners that log after waiting 15 min warping around. I cant understand why somebody who crashed in combat is penalized and somebody who attacks in hostile space is not. The current system is not preventing logout in combat. It does the opposite. Edit: A workaround with the POS problem would be easy. Give a 2nd quit button that says "quit and stay". Your ship stays at the POS inside the field for 15 min and then vanishes. -- $ perl -n -e 'print "Stop blameing pirates! Oveur is the root of all evil!\n" if m/podkill\|lost my ship\|gank\|gate camp\|Verone/;'


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