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Invention for modules is way to good, ships to poor.

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Illuminaty ISS Navy Task Force Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2007.01.07 13:54:00 - [31] Originally by: Kharakan Originally by: Illuminaty Who really gives a crap about the ships. Everyone who wants to fly the sodding things? And that is the answer right there. You WANT to fly a T2 ship, but you NEED T2 modules.
Tanis Bastar Caldari Interstitial Incorporated	Posted - 2007.01.07 14:00:00 - [32] Lady Noir thanks for the info. While the success rates seem rather disappointing, my biggest disappointment with Invention is still the difficult of obtaining the Data Interfaces; I know it was easy for you, but for us little folk the challenge of building a DI is awfully steep. I'm going to give it a shot anyway once I've got the skills trained up...
Adipocere	Posted - 2007.01.07 16:22:00 - [33] Originally by: Lady Noir Edited by: Lady Noir on 07/01/2007 06:32:22 Doing an invention job using 2x high energy physics and 2x quantum physics datacores, with the best decryptor, you can get a 40 run module bpc, cap recharger II for example. Just starting at the top, what's your data set for successful module bpcs received? All things being exactly equal, what's the spread of the runs on those BPCs? Is 40 your realized max, average, mode, number picked out of the air? Can you tell if it forms a bell curve or the like? A lot of your post is based on that number and I'm curious what the statistical reality behind it is.
Kabeil Blackdawn The Shadow Order Storm Armada	Posted - 2007.01.07 16:39:00 - [34] My opinion is that ccp thought datacore were going to sell for less then they sell atm. If mechanical eng. datacore sold for 5mil instead of 15mil, and starship datacore for 5 mil, then it would cost you 160 mill instead of your 300mil for 32 datacore. Making it more profitable for you to make hac. With module invention being more profitable, more ppl will do it and we will see a decrease in the price of overprice tech2 module. Hopefully the price of datacore will go down a little or ccp will change something like the number of runs for ship invention or the number of datacore needed.
Lady Noir	Posted - 2007.01.07 16:48:00 - [35] Originally by: Adipocere Originally by: Lady Noir Edited by: Lady Noir on 07/01/2007 06:32:22 Doing an invention job using 2x high energy physics and 2x quantum physics datacores, with the best decryptor, you can get a 40 run module bpc, cap recharger II for example. Just starting at the top, what's your data set for successful module bpcs received? All things being exactly equal, what's the spread of the runs on those BPCs? Is 40 your realized max, average, mode, number picked out of the air? Can you tell if it forms a bell curve or the like? A lot of your post is based on that number and I'm curious what the statistical reality behind it is. The number of runs isn't random, it's a set number dependant on a few things, the only thing that is random is your chance of success, which i have stated is about 50% with ships, with modules, you have the option of using named items which is supposed to increase the chance of success even further. Everyone is going to be using best named items in their jobs for maximum chance of success. Apart from ship jobs that.
Eno Matterre	Posted - 2007.01.07 16:55:00 - [36] Sorry haven't had the heart to read through all of this, but isn't it that modules print copies have max number of runs 10x higher than ship print copies? if so, then they just went with it and are too busy flying all those uber new ships and not caring about their subscribers to do anything about it.
Moominer InterGalactic Corp. Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.01.07 16:59:00 - [37] Good info again, at least it sounds like module invention is worth it in some cases. Did you get 40 run BPCs with the best named meta items, or were you using faction items? ___ Hostile! CTRL-Q CTRL-Q CTRL-Q ... CTRL-Q can save you from sociopath PvPers
Lady Noir	Posted - 2007.01.07 17:09:00 - [38] Originally by: Moominer Good info again, at least it sounds like module invention is worth it in some cases. Did you get 40 run BPCs with the best named meta items, or were you using faction items? The number of runs is not effected by the meta level of the item afaik, the meta level just helps increase your success chance a bit.
Draqun Caldari Wo Zhi Dao Rogue Method Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.07 17:24:00 - [39] Bascialy part of the problem may be the Module to ship ratio 1 ship and over 14 modules on average for the ships granted ships tend to be blown up and modules have a chance at survival and that has me wondering what the most salvaged individual module is(or was) --------------------------------------- First rule of playing EVE online If your too paranoid to play Eve your not paranoid enough to play Eve
Ather Ialeas Amarr Karjala Inc. Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.01.07 18:47:00 - [40] Originally by: Draqun ...has me wondering what the most salvaged individual module is(or was) WCS?
Zanarkand Gallente Enterprise Estonia Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2007.01.07 18:58:00 - [41] Is it possible to "invent" CovOpsCloakingDevices?
Jon Asus	Posted - 2007.01.07 19:04:00 - [42] Is there a guide to invention avaliable somewhere? I think I've got far too many questions about it for anyone to be bothered to answer...
Nimie	Posted - 2007.01.07 21:18:00 - [43] how fast does it take to invent something? is it possible to say, invent 16 bpc in an hr or so and make like 3k modules in a month?
Nimie	Posted - 2007.01.08 17:39:00 - [44] how did this get on page 3?
We'ana	Posted - 2007.01.08 19:07:00 - [45] Originally by: Nimie Edited by: Nimie on 08/01/2007 17:34:17 how fast does it take to invent something? is it possible to say, invent thousands of modules or just 300 with one invention set per month? I been wondering that myself. Does invention give you instant results or does it take time to complete invention jobs? If it takes time, how much?
Haniblecter Teg F.R.E.E. Explorer EVE Animal Control	Posted - 2007.01.08 19:39:00 - [46] Wha Wha, I make 100million profit or more on a hard to get, let alone build, ship and I want to make more. TIME TO CALL THE WHAMBULANCE! ---------------------------------------- Friends Forever
Kylania Gallente Phoenix Industries	Posted - 2007.01.08 19:53:00 - [47] 40m for a HAC! I'll take one! As far as I can tell Invention was designed so you could get T2 items without a BPO and without the moronic prices, not as a replacement for needing a BPO in order to print ISK. If you want a HAC you invent it. If you want to build HACs you get a BPO. -- Lil Miner Newbie Skills Roadmap \| How to Build from a BPO
Lady Noir	Posted - 2007.01.08 22:25:00 - [48] There is only one decryptor worth using, and it's incredibly rare for all races except the caldari, for some reason the caldari good decryptor drops a lot, i think this is a bug. Yes you can get datacores from your agents for no cost in isk, but there is a research point cost. When you could simple sell your datacores for 10-20m on the market (mechanical is going to end up being over 20m each when more people are inventing, you already can't find sell orders for mechanical cheaper than about 20m per datacore) So lets say you get the 16 mechanical and 16 starship datacores to do two invention jobs using the best decryptor, only one of these jobs will succeed on average, it doesn't matter if you got the datacores from your agent or not, the fact is, they are worth 20m each on the market for mechanical, and 5-10m each for starship. When you could have simple sold those datacores for raw isk, how can you say you are not effectively spending isk by each datacore you use? You will use on average 16 mechanical and 16 starship datacores to produce a very bad ME 4 run HAC bpc, pricing mechanical datacores at 20m each, thats 360m in mechanical datacores, and 5-10m each for starship datacores puts that at 80-160m for the 16 starship datacores. Did i mention how many research points had to be spent to get 2x16 datacores? 16 mechanical datacores = 8,000 mechanical RP, and 16 starship datacores = 24,000 starship RP, all that, for a chance of a 4 run HAC bpc, and if you get the bpc, it will then cost you a further 40m just to build each ship. Good luck getting the only decryptor worth using to, it's ultra rare (unless your doing caldari)
Fenderson Finite Horizon	Posted - 2007.01.08 22:25:00 - [49] Originally by: JP Moregain Edited by: JP Moregain on 08/01/2007 22:15:39 Originally by: Fenderson Edited by: Fenderson on 08/01/2007 21:32:42 Originally by: Ghoest Time is isk in EVE dumbo. I guess by your reasoning everything in EVE is free except T1 BPOs and some skill books. yes time is isk. datacores take zero time to produce. once you talk to the agent the first time, you can produce X amount of datacores over time for ever with zero effort. So i dont see your point... Attempting to reply in a helpful and non-'flameboyant' manner... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunity_cost (almost) every economist in the world would disagree with you, sir. Nothing 'free' about it. Best Regards, JP I am not saying that datacores have no isk value. What i am saying is that if you use your own datacores from your own research agents and do the whole invention process yourself, invention of ships is, in fact, profitable. CHICKS DIG DREADS (and i DONT mean capital ships)
Sorela Gallente	Posted - 2007.01.08 22:28:00 - [50] Originally by: JP Moregain http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunity_cost Actually Opportunity Cost very neatly supports his real attempted argument. I will however agree with you that his usage of the word "free" was gross exageration since T2 BPO's will retain value and thus Datacores will also retain value due to Opportunity cost.
Sorela Gallente	Posted - 2007.01.08 22:39:00 - [51] Originally by: Lady Noir Yes you can get datacores from your agents for no cost in isk, but there is a research point cost. When you could simple sell your datacores for 10-20m on the market (mechanical is going to end up being over 20m each when more people are inventing, you already can't find sell orders for mechanical cheaper than about 20m per datacore) Your argument is not wrong in how to make the most money at this point in time. The thing you are not considering is how will the market end up after months of inventions existance. The price of datacores will go down though specifically because of the intense profits you have mentioned. I myself have never bothered with RP points on any of my 3 accounts even over a year and a half of playing becaue the T2 BPO lottery seemed a waste of time to me. As soon as I log in later I will begin producing them just to cash in on all that money for no work.
Lady Noir	Posted - 2007.01.08 22:47:00 - [52] Originally by: Sorela Originally by: Lady Noir Yes you can get datacores from your agents for no cost in isk, but there is a research point cost. When you could simple sell your datacores for 10-20m on the market (mechanical is going to end up being over 20m each when more people are inventing, you already can't find sell orders for mechanical cheaper than about 20m per datacore) Your argument is not wrong in how to make the most money at this point in time. The thing you are not considering is how will the market end up after months of inventions existance. The price of datacores will go down though specifically because of the intense profits you have mentioned. I myself have never bothered with RP points on any of my 3 accounts even over a year and a half of playing becaue the T2 BPO lottery seemed a waste of time to me. As soon as I log in later I will begin producing them just to cash in on all that money for no work. Let me in on your secret on how you create characters that get research points for no work.
Fenderson Finite Horizon	Posted - 2007.01.08 22:58:00 - [53] Originally by: Lady Noir Let me in on your secret on how you create characters that get research points for no work. Step 1) create character Step 2) run some missions and train some skills Step 3) collect RPs/datacores forever with no additional effort It sounds like what you are really trying to say is that you feel one character cannot produce enough RP to make craploads of isk from invention single-handedly? If that is really what your trying to say, i would probably agree with you, tho i need to spend more time with the numbers to say that. Whether or not you consider that a good thing is another discussion entirely... CHICKS DIG DREADS (and i DONT mean capital ships)
Sorela Gallente	Posted - 2007.01.08 23:23:00 - [54] Originally by: Lady Noir Let me in on your secret on how you create characters that get research points for no work. I was under the impression that you continue to acquire RP's after doing a small amount of work to set it up correctly for basically forever with no maitenance. As I said though I've never done it before. If I am somehow incorrect in this assumption please feel free to correct me. If you're just nitpicking over my usage of "no work" when there is actually a small amount of work required then that's hardly an effective counter to my argument.
Tanis Bastar Caldari Interstitial Incorporated	Posted - 2007.01.08 23:36:00 - [55] Originally by: Fenderson I am not saying that datacores have no isk value. What i am saying is that if you use your own datacores from your own research agents and do the whole invention process yourself, invention of ships is, in fact, profitable. Originally by: Sorela Actually Opportunity Cost very neatly supports his real attempted argument. Huh? Here is a quote from Wikipedia which directly refutes his attempted argument: Originally by: Wikipedia Assessing opportunity costs is fundamental to assessing the true cost of any course of action. In the case where there is no explicit accounting or monetary cost (price) attached to a course of action, ignoring opportunity costs may produce the illusion that its benefits cost nothing at all. The unseen opportunity costs then become the implicit hidden costs of that course of action.
El Yatta Mercenary Forces Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2007.01.08 23:55:00 - [56] Originally by: Lady Noir There is only one decryptor worth using, and it's incredibly rare for all races except the caldari, for some reason the caldari good decryptor drops a lot, i think this is a bug. Yes you can get datacores from your agents for no cost in isk, but there is a research point cost. When you could simple sell your datacores for 10-20m on the market (mechanical is going to end up being over 20m each when more people are inventing, you already can't find sell orders for mechanical cheaper than about 20m per datacore) So lets say you get the 16 mechanical and 16 starship datacores to do two invention jobs using the best decryptor, only one of these jobs will succeed on average, it doesn't matter if you got the datacores from your agent or not, the fact is, they are worth 20m each on the market for mechanical, and 5-10m each for starship. When you could have simple sold those datacores for raw isk, how can you say you are not effectively spending isk by each datacore you use? You will use on average 16 mechanical and 16 starship datacores to produce a very bad ME 4 run HAC bpc, pricing mechanical datacores at 20m each, thats 360m in mechanical datacores, and 5-10m each for starship datacores puts that at 80-160m for the 16 starship datacores. Did i mention how many research points had to be spent to get 2x16 datacores? 16 mechanical datacores = 8,000 mechanical RP, and 16 starship datacores = 24,000 starship RP, all that, for a chance of a 4 run HAC bpc, and if you get the bpc, it will then cost you a further 40m just to build each ship. Good luck getting the only decryptor worth using to, it's ultra rare (unless your doing caldari) Are you referring to the one with the best description, e.g. Installation Guide? This gives 1.3x to probability of success, -3 "points" to ME, but plus 2 to PE and plus 4 to runs. I say this because I have acquired 1-2 of the Gallente version, Stolen Formulas, fairly easily - perhaps thy're not so rare as you think? However, seeing as you've been saying that the profit is in the max-run jobs of 40 runs, are you referring to a different set of decryptors (e.g. Interface Alignment chart) which gives 9 points to runs, and 1 to PE but a shocking -4 to ME and a 0.4x modifier to success? If so, your story makes not much sense, as a 0.4x probability modifier on your jobs where you claim a 50% success rate would suggest that you could, with NO decryptor, be getting 100% succcess rate, and indeed with the first one mentioned, almost guarantee it! So: are you using plus4 to runs and 1.3x to chance, bumping it up to your claimed 50% rate, and claiming you can only get 4 ship or 40 mods runs max (great for mods, bad for ships), or are you using plus 9 to runs but 0.4x to chance, and it is plus9 that gets us up to 40/4 runs? Somehow your chances of success quoted dont make any sense with the figures on these decryptors : either you can get more runs or more chance of success than you are claiming. ---\|\|---
Fenderson Finite Horizon	Posted - 2007.01.09 00:07:00 - [57] Originally by: Tanis Bastar Originally by: Fenderson I am not saying that datacores have no isk value. What i am saying is that if you use your own datacores from your own research agents and do the whole invention process yourself, invention of ships is, in fact, profitable. Originally by: Sorela Actually Opportunity Cost very neatly supports his real attempted argument. Huh? Here is a quote from Wikipedia which directly refutes his attempted argument: Originally by: Wikipedia Assessing opportunity costs is fundamental to assessing the true cost of any course of action. In the case where there is no explicit accounting or monetary cost (price) attached to a course of action, ignoring opportunity costs may produce the illusion that its benefits cost nothing at all. The unseen opportunity costs then become the implicit hidden costs of that course of action. So what exactly is the opportunity cost of a datacore? To the person producing the datacore, they have 2 choices. They can either sell it, or invent something with it. If they invent something with it, they get isk for the ship they produce, at the cost of being able to sell the datacore. If they sell it, they get isk for the datacore but lose the opportunity to invent something with it. The only reson (presumably) that someone would sell it is if selling it brings a greater profit then inventing with it. But thats an impossible situation in the long run. The only reason that would ever happen is if someone else has a way to take the same amount of datacores and produce more isk with it than the person producing the datacores to begin with. The ultimate opportunity cost of datacores lies in their ability to make ships, not the amount that they presently cost on the market. If they are currently selling for more on the market then their actual opportunity cost, that is only a temporary state and the prices will come down, because nobody will buy datacores off the market if ship invention is not profitable using purchased datacores. So once the market balances out, the only people selling datacores will be people who have no intention of inventing with them. The prices they are able to charge will be directly based on what the actual profit potential is for invention. CHICKS DIG DREADS (and i DONT mean capital ships)
Sorela Gallente	Posted - 2007.01.09 01:09:00 - [58] Originally by: Tanis Bastar Huh? Here is a quote from Wikipedia which directly refutes his attempted argument: Your quote really had nothing to do with his attempted argument? It was simply about the danger of mistaking something to be free when it is in fact not free. Your quote directly applies to the wording he used where he tried to say the datacores were free. Him saying that actually had nothing to do with the argument he is obviously persuing though. Quote: So what exactly is the opportunity cost of a datacore? Not to nit-pick but you did leave out some of the opportunity costs of a datacore. 1) You could use the time required to acquire the datacore and sell/use it to do something else (like mining). (very extremely low value) 2) You could not buy the datacore and wait some unknowable time till the next T2 BPO seeding and possibly get a T2 BPO. (extremly low value) 3) You can invent something with it. (high value) 4) You can sell it. (high value) As far as I know these are the only 4 possible considerations. The actual value of one and two are practically nothing and thus do not need to be considered when you seek the highest opportunity cost. This is why opportunity cost supports his argument. If you list all the possible opportunity costs it quickly becomes apparent that it's a no brainer to produce datacores as fast as you possibly can.
Ryysa North Face Force	Posted - 2007.01.09 03:27:00 - [59] Actually, this free datacore argument is pretty silly, I'll give a very simple example that applies. Let's say your corp has a HAC bpo, you get said hac for 60m from the corp, while it's market value is 200m. Now you get your HAC blown up, is the loss 60m or 200m? You can view this differently. a) The loss is 200m, because you could have sold said HAC for that money, which you could not do, because you got it blown up. b) The loss is 60m for you and 140m for the manufacturer, who sold said HAC cheaper to you. In both cases, the loss is still 200m. Every item has a price. Just because you got said datacore from your agent, doesn't make it free. It still has a value. So you can't say "but you can make hac's for 40m with your own datacores". You can't, the datacores are worth X million isk per, so to make a hac it's still 40m+Xmillion isk. Same as, if you farm a complex, get a faction item, fit it on your PvP ship, get it blown up. You could have sold it on the market, sold it for xx mil, instead you lost it. Even though sometimes it seems as if something is "free" from our perspective, it never really is. All about target jamming & The Logoffski guide
Sorja E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.01.09 04:34:00 - [60] Just a quick note about datacores: they are very expensive. Some guys pay RL cash to level a research alt, it's exactly the same as buying ISK with time cards: this isn't free. And if you're a frigateer and wan't to invent Crows... just The system looks borked for ships and fine for modules. ____________________ A gentleman is someone who can play the bagpipe, but who does not.

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