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Aaron	Posted - 2007.01.07 12:17:00 - [1] Ok guys, I need the reasonably minded people behind me here, please post a message here to show the gods of eve that PVP Logoffski, 15 minute and 2 minute timers, Shooting NPC wreckage to aggro victim, and gankster tactics needs to be seriously reviewed. the particulars of this are as follows; - Pilots facing stupid odds should not be aggro'ed - pilots that shoot another pilots NPC wreckage to aggro them without them knowing should face a 2 day ban until this is addressed by the eve gods. - Scrap the 2 minute and 15 minute aggro timer, (if a pilot does not want to PVP or they are not equipped for PVP why should they face certain destruction?) Please guys get behind me on this, I'd like to see 1000's of replies here, maybe this will make the eve gods realise that somthing needs to change. Your Faithfully, Aaron
Perpello Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2007.01.07 12:21:00 - [2] Request denied. Have a nice day.
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2007.01.07 12:23:00 - [3] ..though the 'shooting wrecks to initiate the 15min timer' does sound like lame use of a unintended side effect... ---------- Video - 'War-Machine'
Irashi Caldari Hunters Agency Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.01.07 12:24:00 - [4] Originally by: Aaron - Scrap the 2 minute and 15 minute aggro timer, (if a pilot does not want to PVP or they are not equipped for PVP why should they face certain destruction?) Why not just have a dueling system like in WoW? Yeah that'd be real fun. ________________________________________ ∞
roadrage639 Caldari Deep Space Patrol	Posted - 2007.01.07 12:30:00 - [5] Originally by: Irashi Originally by: Aaron - Scrap the 2 minute and 15 minute aggro timer, (if a pilot does not want to PVP or they are not equipped for PVP why should they face certain destruction?) Why not just have a dueling system like in WoW? Yeah that'd be real fun. WELCOME TO 0.0 XD The Man Who Runs Will Fight Again
Nero Scuro Caldari Murder of Crows E N I G M A	Posted - 2007.01.07 12:35:00 - [6] So your plan is if you whine enough like a noob you can make PvP non-consentual because you got your raven popped? Oh... man... so much flaming to do and only 100 billion years until the heat-death of the universe in which to do it... ___ The world isn't going to end; we're not that lucky...

Jiekon	Posted - 2007.01.07 12:39:00 - [7] the logoff timers are, imho fine. and are there to stop people entering pvp and then, oops, all of a sudden i'm into structure ctrl+q <phew> saved my uber BS. You were unlucky and got caught out by what may or may not be an exploit. The GM's will review your case and we will look at the machanics behind this. Also, this post could easily have been attached to your last topic.. ___________________________ ~Jiekon Known Issues Bug Reporting Guides for new Revelations Features ███████████████ ███████████████ ███████████████ ███████████████ ███████████████

Iyanah Minmatar Mining Munitions and Mayhem	Posted - 2007.01.07 12:43:00 - [8] Originally by: Aaron Ok guys, I need the reasonably minded people behind me here, please post a message here to show the gods of eve that PVP Logoffski, 15 minute and 2 minute timers, Shooting NPC wreckage to aggro victim, and gankster tactics needs to be seriously reviewed. the particulars of this are as follows; - Pilots facing stupid odds should not be aggro'ed - pilots that shoot another pilots NPC wreckage to aggro them without them knowing should face a 2 day ban until this is addressed by the eve gods. - Scrap the 2 minute and 15 minute aggro timer, (if a pilot does not want to PVP or they are not equipped for PVP why should they face certain destruction?) Please guys get behind me on this, I'd like to see 1000's of replies here, maybe this will make the eve gods realise that somthing needs to change. Your Faithfully, Aaron No. whilst what you encountered was a little harsh, i think the changes you propose are absolutely insane, the whole point of eve is that in low sec someone can find you, and kill you, regardless of weather you want them to or not. i DID however see someone suggest that: A - you should be warned if you have an agro timer on you due to someone else's actions - i.e. shooting your wreck stealing from your can, whatever. B - if you have no agro, the emergency warp should include a cloak like the jump cloak - temporary, and cancelled if you do anything, but otherwise lasts the 2 mins untill your ship dissapears from space. ========================================== Iy
Patrick Harper	Posted - 2007.01.07 12:44:00 - [9] God i hope this is flamebait
Felysta Sandorn Caldari Murder of Crows E N I G M A	Posted - 2007.01.07 12:44:00 - [10] SIMPLE SOLUTION FOR ALL LOG-OFFS The whole point of warping out of bubbles when logged off is to prevent people from dying that have crashed, therefore... ADD IN A LOG ENTRY FOR EXITING THE GAME If someone presses CTRL-Q or the X in the top right of the screen, they are logging off, therefore it will be easy to add in a log entry saying '[Time] Log off'... If someone crashes, they will not get one of these log entries! Now for the simple solution: If this log entry exists, the person in that ship WILL NOT EMERGENCY WARP... This means if they are in a bubble, they will stay in that bubble, logged off... If they are in a belt when another BS arrives, they will stay in that belt if they log off! It would then be up to that pilot to get to a Safe-Spot first, before logging out, or sitting cloaked in the bubble trying to barter his/her way out by bribing the lovely pirates with iskies... The Summary Nearly all of the ships I've lost were due to getting ganked in big blobs (unless I'm just having a 'Felysta day' as my alliance know well :)), so what?! Get over it! It's part of the game! If you don't want to risk running in to a big bubble and gate camp, stay in Empire space! I have never and will never log off to save my ship and/or pod from destruction. It's a part of the game! If you don't want to lose anything when playing games, either go play a single player game, or go play WoW... _________________________________________________________ http://www.murkeye.com/images/sigs/felysta2.jpg Signature filesize exceeds max limit of 24000 bytes. Mail us if you have questions -Eldo
Constantine Arcanum Gallente IMPERIAL SENATE Pure.	Posted - 2007.01.07 12:51:00 - [11] Originally by: Aaron Ok guys, I need the reasonably minded people behind me here, please post a message here to show the gods of eve that PVP Logoffski, 15 minute and 2 minute timers, Shooting NPC wreckage to aggro victim, and gankster tactics needs to be seriously reviewed. the particulars of this are as follows; - Pilots facing stupid odds should not be aggro'ed - pilots that shoot another pilots NPC wreckage to aggro them without them knowing should face a 2 day ban until this is addressed by the eve gods. - Scrap the 2 minute and 15 minute aggro timer, (if a pilot does not want to PVP or they are not equipped for PVP why should they face certain destruction?) Please guys get behind me on this, I'd like to see 1000's of replies here, maybe this will make the eve gods realise that somthing needs to change. Your Faithfully, Aaron FAIL. I helped - Cortes What a shiny and lovely place here - Eshtir Well lets make it a party atleast :D -Xorus RAWWWR!11!!1!2 SIG HIJACK!!11!1 I found it first, get orrrfff moiiii laaannnd - Cortes
Cotton Tail Rage of Angels Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.01.07 12:58:00 - [12] Edited by: Cotton Tail on 07/01/2007 12:56:03 The old cliche applies here, don't go into lowsec/nosec if you can't afford to or have no intention of losing ships. The systems are not designed to be a carebear haven, they are there for a scaling risk vs reward system and as it stands anyone who doesn't wish to engage in pvp can easily avoid unwanted conflict, getting caught is just carelessness. Don't leave npc corporations and empire space if getting shot at brings out the worst in you. To address your three point plan of 'fixing' things: - Pilots facing stupid odds should be aggroed if they are aggroed through game mechanics, I can't quite believe you suggested that although having read your third point it doesn't seem that farfetched. The reason you can get ganked horribly is because the game is meant to allow that, it keeps things edgy and interesting which clearly shows because it affects you enough to warrant a post about the damn thing. - NPC wreckage aggro, you almost had a point there, CCP hasn't really released a clear stance if this is intended or not so confirmation would always be nice, but as it stands shooting cans flags for combat thus it makes sense that shooting wrecks flags you for combat too. Note earlier I said you almost had a point because attached to a valid concern you decided to throw in a 'lets ban all players that shoot me' clause into your proposal. Nice one. - Scrap combat timers? Lawl... your post just became satirical be it intentional or not. Get this straight, logging off to avoid combat is a dirty, cheap, carebear trick. Combat timers are there to protect the innocent who have valid issues of crashing/disconnections in pve gameplay. People abused this and now we have the combat flag system to partially address this, and it still needs more work when we consider logging off in bubbles. Sadly mate, this game still needs a lot of tweaking and changing, but you don't appear to have any good answers. I'd advise you to think a little more about gameplay before you post again.
Kyozoku Mutiny.	Posted - 2007.01.07 13:11:00 - [13] The timers need to be increased if anything.
Ozzie Asrail FATAL REVELATIONS FATAL Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.07 13:26:00 - [14] aw dude comon, I'd almost thought my first post about this was wrong once i heard the details but 3 threads and this is jsut a joke... Logoff\agro timers are fine. Shooting wrecks, if it is a bug, needs fixing asap. Have you actually even tried to verify it? -----
Aaron	Posted - 2007.01.07 13:50:00 - [15] Originally by: Cotton Tail Edited by: Cotton Tail on 07/01/2007 12:56:03 - NPC wreckage aggro, you almost had a point there, CCP hasn't really released a clear stance if this is intended or not so confirmation would always be nice, but as it stands shooting cans flags for combat thus it makes sense that shooting wrecks flags you for combat too. Note earlier I said you almost had a point because attached to a valid concern you decided to throw in a 'lets ban all players that shoot me' clause into your proposal. Nice one. My original concern was that the 15 minute timer could be started by shooting someones NPC wreckage, I feel this is an expliot because it has not been documented by the dev team, any player using this expliot should face a 2 day ban, I did not say ban anyone that shoots at me. So it is acctually you that needs to think and read before posting.
Cotton Tail Rage of Angels Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.01.07 14:07:00 - [16] Originally by: Aaron My original concern was that the 15 minute timer could be started by shooting someones NPC wreckage, I feel this is an expliot because it has not been documented by the dev team, any player using this expliot should face a 2 day ban, I did not say ban anyone that shoots at me. So it is acctually you that needs to think and read before posting. No theres a game mechanic that hasn't been explained yet properly by the dev team, which does however fit in with other current planned game mechanics for getting aggression flagged, and your response is to ban anyone who wishes to use the game mechanics to hunt you. You've made an immediate assumption that CCP is going to remove this as an exploit, which you have no authority to make, and you posted this inbetween bullet-point whining about the game being too unfair because groups of other people can attack you when you let them get close enough to do so.
Felysta Sandorn Caldari Murder of Crows E N I G M A	Posted - 2007.01.07 14:14:00 - [17] I've just thought of a new solution... Let's all pitch in some cash and hire MC to kill and camp people that keep whining about this (and perhaps other parts of EVE)... Every killmail they get from a whiner we'll pay 50mil, every day that whiner can't rat or whatever, another 10mil... _________________________________________________________ http://www.murkeye.com/images/sigs/felysta2.jpg Signature filesize exceeds max limit of 24000 bytes. Mail us if you have questions -Eldo
Zanarkand Gallente Enterprise Estonia Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2007.01.07 14:38:00 - [18] All I can say is : "" Yeah, it seems Kali nerf ruined your 5 wcs npc raven setups!!! Has it even remotely come to your mind that if you REALLY dislike the idea of pvp then you should just stick to highsec?
Cotton Tail Rage of Angels Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.01.07 14:43:00 - [19] Originally by: Zanarkand All I can say is : "" Yeah, it seems Kali nerf ruined your 5 wcs npc raven setups!!! Has it even remotely come to your mind that if you REALLY dislike the idea of pvp then you should just stick to highsec? Or fit 5 stabs and just use FOF cruise missiles
Verone Veto.	Posted - 2007.01.07 14:47:00 - [20] Personally I'd like to see the following. All agressive log off timers increased to 30 minutes. This includes : > Ships that have agressed another player. > Ships that have been agressed by another player. > Ships that are trapped in an anchored bubble or interdiction bubble. > Ships that have been aggressed while logged out, including those who uncloak at a gate after disconnect. > Every player originated damage strike on a ship resets this timer to 30 minutes. > Removal of wreck agression to initiate agression on a player. (lame and should be an exploit imo) > Session change on destruction of ship DOES NOT remove the 30 min countdown, it resets it to 30 mins like any other player initiated damage strike. If a player's disconnect occurs while he agressed to NPC damage only, without player interference, his vessel will dissapear from space after 5 minutes. However if a player agresses him within those 5 minutes, his timer is reset to a 30 minute timer. I think that would solve a lot of problems to be honest, and make logging out basically useless. NEWEST MOVIE : VETO FOR HIRE
subvert	Posted - 2007.01.07 15:09:00 - [21] Originally by: Jiekon the logoff timers are, imho fine. and are there to stop people entering pvp and then, oops, all of a sudden i'm into structure ctrl+q <phew> saved my uber BS. how about the people who arent PVPing at all? no timers on them, then they log off, get probed after log, and blown up. was that intended with the new probing system? right now everyone has a timer, even if they sat in space doing nothing for the past hour. when they they log off there is enough time to probe them down and kill them. you can do this with covert ops outside an enemy pos. wait them to log at pos then probe their un-timered ship down and go blow it up. is that fine?
Captain Clue Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2007.01.07 15:16:00 - [22] Originally by: subvert Originally by: Jiekon the logoff timers are, imho fine. and are there to stop people entering pvp and then, oops, all of a sudden i'm into structure ctrl+q <phew> saved my uber BS. how about the people who arent PVPing at all? no timers on them, then they log off, get probed after log, and blown up. was that intended with the new probing system? right now everyone has a timer, even if they sat in space doing nothing for the past hour. when they they log off there is enough time to probe them down and kill them. you can do this with covert ops outside an enemy pos. wait them to log at pos then probe their un-timered ship down and go blow it up. is that fine? Surely that is only a problem in 0.0 space or in 0.4-0.1 areas and due to 2 minute window only gives the prober a short amount of time in which to find their target. For someone to find another so quickly that would pretty much indicate that they are already actively hunting them right? Logging off inside a pos shield is still a problem though and certainly could do with being changed.
ghosttr Amarr Point-Zero Ratel Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.07 15:19:00 - [23] Originally by: Jiekon the logoff timers are, imho fine. and are there to stop people entering pvp and then, oops, all of a sudden i'm into structure ctrl+q <phew> saved my uber BS. You were unlucky and got caught out by what may or may not be an exploit. The GM's will review your case and we will look at the machanics behind this. Also, this post could easily have been attached to your last topic.. Yay! Someone making sense All of you are either whining because you got popped, or because you couldn't pop someone. I think that it is pretty even how it stands. Donte favor the gate campers or the people who log off at the gate camps. I don't have a problem with authority... ...as long as it doesn't get in my way.
Moominer InterGalactic Corp. Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.01.07 15:20:00 - [24] Originally by: Jiekon the logoff timers are, imho fine. No, logoff mechanics are far from fine. Non-aggress logoff timer is being used on a common basis to avoid non-consentual PvP. See a hostile come in local, logoff and you are 99.9% immune ( as it's not, especially if you are in a large ship. Conversely, there are people as above pointing out issues with players who need to legiatimly logoff - your ship is vulnerable due to the only truely safe place being stations. Logoff mechanics need an urgent review by CCP, as they are causing serious problems, from both sides of the fence, but epsecially from the concerning point of view of people abusing logoff mechanics to avoid any form of combat. I would suggest checking some of the previous threads over the past couple of weeks on this issue before claiming that logoff mechanics are "fine" ___ Hostile! CTRL-Q CTRL-Q CTRL-Q ... CTRL-Q can save you from sociopath PvPers
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2007.01.07 15:28:00 - [25] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 07/01/2007 15:24:58 Originally by: Moominer Originally by: Jiekon the logoff timers are, imho fine. No, logoff mechanics are far from fine. I would suggest checking some of the previous threads over the past couple of weeks on this issue before claiming that logoff mechanics are "fine" Its just his honest opinion. Im pretty sure some people on ccp agree, and some disagree. Dont pick on Jiekon for having an opinion about it... isnt that what we want the devs to have? Seems to me that everytime Jiekon posts, he get critizised for not agreeing... He should get one of those sigs saying "My posts are personal and does not represent ccp's stand on the subject", since people otherwise tend to assume he is making official statements every time he posts. Its Jiekon, he always does this. Thats why we like him. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Aaron	Posted - 2007.01.07 16:38:00 - [26] Originally by: Zanarkand All I can say is : "" Yeah, it seems Kali nerf ruined your 5 wcs npc raven setups!!! Has it even remotely come to your mind that if you REALLY dislike the idea of pvp then you should just stick to highsec? Zanakand, I like the idea of PVP, I dont like the idea of socipath players having the ability to control weather someone is involved in PVP or not. The case always seems to be i get killed with stupid odds against me of more than 5 to 1. As it stands now i have made all the isk i need to make from NPC'ing and have very strong intentions of doing some pvp with people like you. Lets see how you act when I come and bother you while your ratting. I feel it is not right that the dev team did not clearly state that the 15 minute timer could be started when a player attacks your NPC wreckage. My only gripe is that the dev team should have stated this when they introduced the 15 minute timer. If it had been clearly stated I would have attempted to destroy all npc wrekage after i had looted/salvaged it. I dont feel i am asking for much here except a bit of communication so i am clear where I stand when playing this wonderful game that I pay money for on a yearly basis. See you on the battlefield soon Zanerkand.
Roy Batty68 Caldari Immortal Dead	Posted - 2007.01.07 16:40:00 - [27] If logging off in a station or outpost becomes the only way to be certain you can exit the game safely, 0.0 space is going to need alot of work. People doing the Forum Warrior routine need to slow down and really consider what they're saying. Logoffski's are lame. Killing an unagressed unmanned ship simply because you've found some loophole in the game mechanics is just as lame. It may be cliche to bring up honorable playstyle as a factor, but it can make a difference in how the overall quality of a game is perceived. If the act of nonagressed, simply "done for the night" logging off becomes a crapshoot as to whether you keep your ship or not, EVE will suffer for it. And I really have to wonder at the people who think that sort of game play is ok... Anyway, I'm sure the devs have their eyes on these sort of issues. There shouldn't be a need for any sort of petition and it really shouldn't matter what the playerbase thinks when it comes to game mechanics and fair play. So even if a bunch of tards line up and shout, "Heck no! we want our sploits!", I have faith that CCP will ignore them. The minute I lose that faith, I'll simply quit paying them. I shouldn't have to make petitions to the playerbase to maintain quality gameplay. ------------------- ... [OK] ... zOMG!
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2007.01.07 16:40:00 - [28] Originally by: Aaron I feel it is not right that the dev team did not clearly state that the 15 minute timer could be started when a player attacks your NPC wreckage. My only gripe is that the dev team should have stated this when they introduced the 15 minute timer. /me thinks they didnt know... --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Samirol Turbulent Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.07 16:41:00 - [29] Edited by: Samirol on 07/01/2007 16:38:17 Originally by: Aaron Originally by: Zanarkand All I can say is : "" Yeah, it seems Kali nerf ruined your 5 wcs npc raven setups!!! Has it even remotely come to your mind that if you REALLY dislike the idea of pvp then you should just stick to highsec? Zanakand, I like the idea of PVP, I dont like the idea of socipath players having the ability to control weather someone is involved in PVP or not. Then why you are you in 0.0? Originally by: Aaron I feel it is not right that the dev team did not clearly state that the 15 minute timer could be started when a player attacks your NPC wreckage. My only gripe is that the dev team should have stated this when they introduced the 15 minute timer. If it had been clearly stated I would have attempted to destroy all npc wrekage after i had looted/salvaged it. In your last thread, the dev/isd person that posted thought it was an exploit. Exploits, when they are in a game, are usually unintentional. Originally by: Aaron I dont feel i am asking for much here except a bit of communication so i am clear where I stand when playing this wonderful game that I pay money for on a yearly basis. we are communicating that we dont want arenas or crap like that. Unconsensual pvp is what makes eve great. Tier 2 BS Lotto Contact mach'ett3 for all your sig needs
Moominer InterGalactic Corp. Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.01.07 16:45:00 - [30] Originally by: Aaron Zanakand, I like the idea of PVP, I dont like the idea of socipath players having the ability to control weather someone is involved in PVP or not. EVE is a game that contains elements of non-consentual PvP in certain areas. That's what makes it one of the best PvP MMOGs still around. If you don't like that fact, you can stick to empire and happily play along? How about we remove empire wars while we're at it too, as those clearly ruin peoples gameplay? Quote: I feel it is not right that the dev team did not clearly state that the 15 minute timer could be started when a player attacks your NPC wreckage. This is clearly an exploit, it needs fixing, and people using it currently should be dealt with severely. However, neither of these issues are reason to not address evasion of non-consentual combat through log off mechanic abuse. ___ Hostile! CTRL-Q CTRL-Q CTRL-Q ... CTRL-Q can save you from sociopath PvPers
Tokra	Posted - 2007.01.07 17:06:00 - [31] Why is it so difficult to just add a kind of camp buttom. You hit camp, and after 2 min, you log out. Ship gone, you gone, all fine. Within this 2 min you are not allowed to do anything, and you should not get hit by anything. If you fire or get fired at, the logoff timer stops. Or change the camp timer to 5 min. This gives other players more than enough time to probe you, but you are still online if they do so to try to get away. Killing camped out player that are just still online becauce of some **** agro timer that came after they logged off is a just lame. Effective but lame. And should be changed soon.
Captain Clue Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2007.01.07 17:30:00 - [32] Originally by: Tokra Why is it so difficult to just add a kind of camp buttom. You hit camp, and after 2 min, you log out. Ship gone, you gone, all fine. Within this 2 min you are not allowed to do anything, and you should not get hit by anything. If you fire or get fired at, the logoff timer stops. Or change the camp timer to 5 min. This gives other players more than enough time to probe you, but you are still online if they do so to try to get away. Killing camped out player that are just still online becauce of some **** agro timer that came after they logged off is a just lame. Effective but lame. And should be changed soon. Not the first time this has been raised but defintely one of the better suggestions for dealing with the whole thing. Give a power down and drift button which makes the ship disappear after a time limit without any combat aggression from any party. Put all other kind of quits on the 15minute recyclable timer, if you're an npcer it won't make a difference if you crash out and find yourself sitting 1au away from the npcs, and sure would help a lot to keep people sitting around in pvp without abusing the system.
Kirex Gallente Vale Heavy Industries SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.07 17:43:00 - [33] DENIED Why did you have to create THREE different threads about this? Creating more threads wont make it happen... Click above for my killboard stats.
Malicia Skirj	Posted - 2007.01.07 17:46:00 - [34] Originally by: Aaron Ok guys, I need the reasonably minded people behind me here, please post a message here to show the gods of eve that PVP Logoffski, 15 minute and 2 minute timers, Shooting NPC wreckage to aggro victim, and gankster tactics needs to be seriously reviewed. Just because people disagree doesn't make them unreasonable, and frankly, saying it is isn't the best way to ask for support from the community. I agree with shooting wreckage being a bad thing if it gives you an aggro timer, but the rest of my responses in this post are strictly to play devil's advocate. Are you ready? :) Originally by: Aaron the particulars of this are as follows; - Pilots facing stupid odds should not be aggro'ed Pilots put themselves into every situation on Eve. The odds don't suddenly crop up. If you're a lone ship mining in low sec, odds are already 'stupid'. Players putting themselves into a position where they will face stupid odds should expect aggro. Originally by: Aaron - pilots that shoot another pilots NPC wreckage to aggro them without them knowing should face a 2 day ban until this is addressed by the eve gods. I agree with this, though I prefer going straight to the source. They should simply make the wrecks not start an aggro timer, or only start it one way (similar to ore stealing). Then you'd have the option to continue evading or you could attack them with no sec loss. Originally by: Aaron - Scrap the 2 minute and 15 minute aggro timer, (if a pilot does not want to PVP or they are not equipped for PVP why should they face certain destruction?) This would destroy immersion and in general not be very good for the theme of low sec/0.0 space. There are already options for pilots who don't want to PvP. No one is forced to go into low sec space. Another solution, for those that want to head into low sec anyway, would be not to log out. Evade...and keep evading 'til you can park your ship in a safe spot. If you don't feel like getting hit by a car, don't walk across the freeway blindfolded. Originally by: Aaron Please guys get behind me on this, I'd like to see 1000's of replies here, maybe this will make the eve gods realise that somthing needs to change. Your Faithfully, Aaron I think what needs to change most is attitudes on both sides of this timer/logoff/why am I unsafe just because I'm in an unsafe area argument. 1. Pirates should have a hell of a time finding and catching people that know what they're doing. 2. Non-pirates need to learn that the risk part of risk vs reward is factual, you could lose your 6 mil retriever, you could get podded, you could lose some SP if you didn't make a new clone and it's quite possible you won't get reimbursed just by whining about it. With all that said, once again, I'm all for changing the issue with the wrecks. It doesn't seem to make sense that the aggro timer should start by shooting a wreck somewhere.
Xendie Forsaken Empire The Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2007.01.07 18:36:00 - [35] just make it impossible to log off within 60sec of a session change or inside a warp disruption field. that would fix most problems. Quote: Nertzius > having fun being incompetitent?
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2007.01.07 18:44:00 - [36] Originally by: Tokra Why is it so difficult to just add a kind of camp buttom. You hit camp, and after 2 min, you log out. Ship gone, you gone, all fine. Within this 2 min you are not allowed to do anything, and you should not get hit by anything. If you fire or get fired at, the logoff timer stops. Or change the camp timer to 5 min. This gives other players more than enough time to probe you, but you are still online if they do so to try to get away. Killing camped out player that are just still online becauce of some **** agro timer that came after they logged off is a just lame. Effective but lame. And should be changed soon. What, you mean a; "Paniicc!!! don't panic Mr Mainwaring!!!..." Button Seriously - no All that needs fixing is the 'shooting wrecks "I aggressed you ho! ho!.." thing' and the 'logging off in bubble "lollerskates @ ur camp..." thing'... ---------- Video - 'War-Machine'
Skeenee Al'Ramed	Posted - 2007.01.07 19:30:00 - [37] U kidding, right? DENIED!!!! This is obviously not your game!!
d'hofren Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.01.07 22:02:00 - [38] I suggest that all players have ten save slots. That way before you enter a dangerous mission or low sec you can elect to save your game and insta restart if it goes wrong. Now training advanced sarcasm to lvl 4......
Hans Steinberg Vengeance of the Fallen Imperium Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.07 22:52:00 - [39] Originally by: Felysta Sandorn SIMPLE SOLUTION FOR ALL LOG-OFFS The whole point of warping out of bubbles when logged off is to prevent people from dying that have crashed, therefore... ADD IN A LOG ENTRY FOR EXITING THE GAME If someone presses CTRL-Q or the X in the top right of the screen, they are logging off, therefore it will be easy to add in a log entry saying '[Time] Log off'... If someone crashes, they will not get one of these log entries! Now for the simple solution: If this log entry exists, the person in that ship WILL NOT EMERGENCY WARP... This means if they are in a bubble, they will stay in that bubble, logged off... If they are in a belt when another BS arrives, they will stay in that belt if they log off! It would then be up to that pilot to get to a Safe-Spot first, before logging out, or sitting cloaked in the bubble trying to barter his/her way out by bribing the lovely pirates with iskies... The Summary Nearly all of the ships I've lost were due to getting ganked in big blobs (unless I'm just having a 'Felysta day' as my alliance know well :)), so what?! Get over it! It's part of the game! If you don't want to risk running in to a big bubble and gate camp, stay in Empire space! I have never and will never log off to save my ship and/or pod from destruction. It's a part of the game! If you don't want to lose anything when playing games, either go play a single player game, or go play WoW... Interesting idea but I think it may cause more problems than it addresses. A scenario I can imagine is where your client is either a) about to crash or b) lagging so badly that it may as well have crashed. In these circumstances I have no problem with anyone hitting ctrl-q, particularly as this may be necessary in order to restart the EVE client. Sucks to lose a ship to a big fleet, sucks even worse when your client won't let you do anything about it. Maybe when we have a system where nobody's client locks up due to lag then we can have your system. ---
Audri Fisher Caldari The Keep THE R0CK	Posted - 2007.01.08 00:08:00 - [40] shooting wrecks? that is lame, and should be an exploit. personaly, I would like to see the aggresion timer to jump increased.
STLEM2	Posted - 2007.01.09 02:03:00 - [41] Here are the problems as I see them: - People logging off to avoid combat - People logging off, and not knowing they have a timer - People logging off in SAFE places like POS's and still having a timer - dodgy connections The problem really is how to tell a dodgy connection from a disconnect. Hence the timers. Would be great if you were inside a POS or Warp Bubble if you didn't go anywhere (I thought they'd fixed that last bit). When you logged. It would also be nice to know that you had a timer, or even if you had to go through some sort of 'safe log off' procedure, where it would quit when your timer ran out. TBH I think it's lame when people log off, but also think it's pretty lame to be shooting ships with essentially no pilot at the helm. I mean, seeing the titan go down was exciting, but I'd rather have seen it give some sort of fight. Disconnects, really have to be disconnects, but logoffs should be safe @ POS's. (mind you, if the POS isn't there when you login again ;) ) And you should at least get an option to wait out your timers logged in.
picktatPlum	Posted - 2007.01.09 04:06:00 - [42] Originally by: Aaron Ok guys, Scrap the 2 minute and 15 minute aggro timer, (if a pilot does not want to PVP or they are not equipped for PVP why should they face certain destruction?) Aaron If a pilot doesnt want to pvp then tough damn luck. Its a pvp world and if they dont really want to, they stay away. What is frustrating is a seeing a pilot ctrl-q once they see a bubble camp. There are many times i have seen a ship in heavy armor and then just vanish. It will be nice to see your aggro timer like when you kill a rat.
Tasuric Orka Antares Fleet Yards SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.09 04:09:00 - [43] -eve is harsh, deel with it plz. -aye, that's an exploit. -aggro timers should be made longer if anything, disconnects happen.. but seriously, logging off to prevent getting caught is FAR more common and the latter should be "fixed", if you get disconnected blame your system/isp, cause i have maybe disconnected twice during a year in eve. Dont fly what you cant afford to lose, simple but very good advice, fallow it and disconnects wont bother you in the remote chance you actually do d/c and get shot. Nothing **es me off more than having pansies logging off when the heat is on them, forcing others to camp, get bored and deal with them later, hoping they wont cause trouble while they are away. I would go as far as leaving ships in space where they log off, now that titans are becoming somewhat "common", every alliance that deserves the name can pull up a POS without a fuss.. I dont see the problem. Originally by:** Deja Thoris The dead horse has now been flogged into puree.
Nake Primary Targets	Posted - 2007.01.09 06:52:00 - [44] Agressing wrecks, as stupid as it sounds, stands to be the only way to reliably kill 0.0 ninja ratters. You know the ones. They sit in your alliances seldom used systems in their noob corp ravens, as soon as someone enters local they are safespotted and logged shortly after. Unless you are lucky with scan probes and find them as SOON as they log, and also have several battleships of your own to take them down in the 20 seconds you may get before they disappear, agreesing their wrecks when they log back in is the only way to rid of them. If CCP wants to fix aggressing wrecks, they need to make agression timer rules apply to shooting NPC ships.
Sgt Blade Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.09 06:59:00 - [45] Originally by: Felysta Sandorn SIMPLE SOLUTION FOR ALL LOG-OFFS The whole point of warping out of bubbles when logged off is to prevent people from dying that have crashed, therefore... ADD IN A LOG ENTRY FOR EXITING THE GAME If someone presses CTRL-Q or the X in the top right of the screen, they are logging off, therefore it will be easy to add in a log entry saying '[Time] Log off'... If someone crashes, they will not get one of these log entries! Now for the simple solution: If this log entry exists, the person in that ship WILL NOT EMERGENCY WARP... This means if they are in a bubble, they will stay in that bubble, logged off... If they are in a belt when another BS arrives, they will stay in that belt if they log off! It would then be up to that pilot to get to a Safe-Spot first, before logging out, or sitting cloaked in the bubble trying to barter his/her way out by bribing the lovely pirates with iskies... The Summary Nearly all of the ships I've lost were due to getting ganked in big blobs (unless I'm just having a 'Felysta day' as my alliance know well :)), so what?! Get over it! It's part of the game! If you don't want to risk running in to a big bubble and gate camp, stay in Empire space! I have never and will never log off to save my ship and/or pod from destruction. It's a part of the game! If you don't want to lose anything when playing games, either go play a single player game, or go play WoW... and for me i can see a few qork arounds to that... pull the pulg outa your comp, to games veiw looks like you crash or house has no power also to pull out your router/modem looks like you loss connection :S all these things still dont need you to press X or ctrl Q. Hypnotic Pelvic Thrusting Level 5
ScreamingLord Sutch Hand in Mouth	Posted - 2007.01.09 07:10:00 - [46] Originally by: Aaron Ok guys, - pilots that shoot another pilots NPC wreckage to aggro them without them knowing should face a 2 day ban until this is addressed by the eve gods. This should be an exploit imo. The rest of your post is pretty hopeless.
Draqun Caldari Wo Zhi Dao Rogue Method Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.09 07:30:00 - [47] right now Logoffski is probably the lesser of two evils why? Right now the other alternative is what a lot of other games use when you go LD your charater is converted to an NPC untill a timer goes off and your "poofed" out of the game. Usualy though thoes games NPC code makes them a half way decent fighter. and considering how lame NPCs are in this game, it would be grounds for automatic re-imbursment every time someone dies to LDing lagging out. --------------------------------------- First rule of playing EVE online If your too paranoid to play Eve your not paranoid enough to play Eve
Alliaanna Dalaii Gallente Does Not Compute	Posted - 2007.01.09 07:45:00 - [48] Worst thread of the week 10mill on the Op's head if it's his main Alliaanna DNC Treasure Hunt !!
checkmarquet	Posted - 2007.01.09 08:00:00 - [49] Edited by: checkmarquet on 09/01/2007 07:59:28 Originally by: Aaron - Scrap the 2 minute and 15 minute aggro timer, (if a pilot does not want to PVP or they are not equipped for PVP why should they face certain destruction?) I agree. How about people having a life? with a family? Dont you ever have to log off in emergency cause your wife needs you? or kids just fall and get hurts? I cant pvp, i WISH i could live in 0.0 but i cant because of this. Pirates wanabee and grievers would says i have to play a offline game or what. But thats only because they need to compansate trying to control something or annoying ppl in game, because IRL they would be kicked. Players claming thats the way it is, have to go get a life.
Leilani Solaris Gallente 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.01.09 09:27:00 - [50] Only probem i have with logoffski is the logoffski marcoers that log as soon as anyone comes in to local. IMO, you should get an agro timer from npc's to stop the macroers if nothing else... Outbreak Killboard
SSgt Sniper Gallente Zekarus Ltd.	Posted - 2007.01.09 11:36:00 - [51] Originally by: Alliaanna Dalaii Worst thread of the week 10mill on the Op's head if it's his main Alliaanna And people wonder why people post with alts..... --------- Representing all the casual gamers happily living in Empire, that want NO PART of your 0.0 annoyances. However, I do not represent my corp. We vote first.
fire 59 Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.09 12:18:00 - [52] No to all of it apart from maybe the mission aggro thingy. Taking away the log off timer's/ctrl q crap would make it stupidly easy to move about. See a problem, just crash your computer. It's not super hard to survive gatecamp's, the tools are there, just alot of people are lazy and get ganked. Darwin in effect imo. Same for the log off timer, if you have been in combat, it's not hard to ss bounce until the timer is up. Also, if you see an nemy and you have a gang on a gate, you arent going to letthem pass and say howdy, your gonna kick his butt and ram a torp down his throa, standings are king in 0.0. If you cant survive out there , live somewhere safer
Redback911	Posted - 2007.01.09 12:40:00 - [53] 15 minute logoff timer for any aggression including NPCs. Logoff timer activated even if you take damage while offline (ie logging at a gatecamp). A camp button that logs you off in 3 minutes but puts up a cyno warp-to effect (so only usable when you are alone in system, but useful if you have to go out and have an NPC flag). Avoiding PVP in 0.0 is already allowed for. It's called a cloak. Doesnt affect ratting ability whatsoever and is 100% effective.
oil University of Caille	Posted - 2007.01.09 12:41:00 - [54] logging off from an own pos in a 0.0 war system. hostile covert ops pilots can scan you down within the 2 minutes easily. you have no way to prevent it and get destroyed. reduce this timer to 1 minute. beinginside a secure position... logging.... warping 1 mill km.... getting scanned.... booooom. thats wrong. arjun
Davlos Caldari Omerta Syndicate	Posted - 2007.01.09 13:15:00 - [55] The OP needs to realize that EVE is a game of non-consensual PvP, and that's the magic of the game. Get jumped? Fight to survive, if you manage to get out alive, it's a bloody great feeling. Begging for "no PvP if the pilot isn't equipped for it" is nonsense. If you want consensual PvP so much, go play World of Warcraft. I came from that cesspit. You flag yourself when you want PvP. --------------- Davlos Cain 040
Davlos Caldari Omerta Syndicate	Posted - 2007.01.09 13:15:00 - [56] The OP needs to realize that EVE is a game of non-consensual PvP, and that's the magic of the game. Get jumped? Fight to survive, if you manage to get out alive, it's a bloody great feeling. Begging for "no PvP if the pilot isn't equipped for it" is nonsense. If you want consensual PvP so much, go play World of Warcraft. I came from that cesspit. You flag yourself when you want PvP. --------------- Davlos Cain 040
Malicia Skirj	Posted - 2007.01.09 13:24:00 - [57] Originally by: oil logging off from an own pos in a 0.0 war system. hostile covert ops pilots can scan you down within the 2 minutes easily. you have no way to prevent it and get destroyed. reduce this timer to 1 minute. beinginside a secure position... logging.... warping 1 mill km.... getting scanned.... booooom. thats wrong. arjun Wrong, from a strictly 'immersion' point of view, would be a ship being able to vanish in thin (or non-existant..since we're in space) air. Two minutes is pushing it as is, given that they have to wait for you to drop out of random warp, scan you down, warp to you themselves then get you. Odds are they've already dropped below the minute mark by the time they're already locking onto your abandoned ship.
Malicia Skirj	Posted - 2007.01.09 13:24:00 - [58] Originally by: oil logging off from an own pos in a 0.0 war system. hostile covert ops pilots can scan you down within the 2 minutes easily. you have no way to prevent it and get destroyed. reduce this timer to 1 minute. beinginside a secure position... logging.... warping 1 mill km.... getting scanned.... booooom. thats wrong. arjun Wrong, from a strictly 'immersion' point of view, would be a ship being able to vanish in thin (or non-existant..since we're in space) air. Two minutes is pushing it as is, given that they have to wait for you to drop out of random warp, scan you down, warp to you themselves then get you. Odds are they've already dropped below the minute mark by the time they're already locking onto your abandoned ship.
oil University of Caille	Posted - 2007.01.09 13:59:00 - [59] what i say is that they should not at all be a ble to get to me if i log without an agro timer. or the should give the option to log off without the ship warping away. the 1 million warp after logging was a measure introduced to protect the player now its a means to destroy him and that was unintentional. logging off without aggro timer should be secure thats all.
Randolf Sightblinder	Posted - 2007.01.09 18:46:00 - [60] Personally I have a problem with how EVE handles logoffs and I'm probably a mild carebear. Here is what I think would be fair. Logoffs by "proper" means such as ctrl-q the X, exit game whatever. 1. Non agressed and no one else on grid, 30 second timer, stay in game if you move or do anything but chat timer canceled. Modules will be off (not offline but off so passives will work). 2. Non agressed and another person on grid, 2 minute timer, no control input again but you can chat.(modules will be off passives still give bonus) For 1 and 2 if the ship is attacked your logout is not canceled so long as you take no action if you do anything logout is canceled. 3. NPC ships do not aggress a player ship period. 4. Actions that are not to the players ship do not agress him (cans, wrecks) even if those actions would make you fair game to that player. 5. When an aggressed player attempts to log they will be notified of the remaining timer and given the option of quitting as is not in game but ship will be untill the timer runs down or waiting for the timer. Exception is if the aggression timer is less than 2 minutes you are given the 2 minute logoff rule as above (number 2). 6. Disconnects: Disconnects DO NOT give a player any benefit over another player, you are still held by PC bubbles, scrams, and webs. Disconnects DO give you immunity to NPC scrams and webs. When you disconnect, one the server determins you are LD it will warp you to a safespot and start a 2 minute countdown if you are not scrammbled or scrammbled by NPCs. The 2 minute count starts regardless of being scrammbled by players or not but the ship does not warp if tackled. If a player goes LD while aggressed but the timer has been on his ship less than the average time it takes the server to determine a person is LD it is the same as if the person was not agressed. If a player has actively fired at another player, even going LD will still hold the full agression timer. This setup means a few things. 1. The ONLY time you warp is if you go LD. And unless you can passivly tank the camp it probably will not save you because if you are tackled by players you still will not warp. You reappear where you left as you left so even if you did tank the camp till you disappeared if you don't wait till the camp is gone you are still in the middle of it, probably with no shields and low armor or hull. 2. Gate camps just got a buff, ships may still disappear under fire but they stay under fire until they do. 3. Miners and raters just got a buff as they now logout in 30 seconds, and if someone is on grid, 2 minutes is long enough to abort their logoff. 4. Fleet battles just got more expensive as its going to be much harder to log to save expensive ships because the only way to warp is to crash the client or disconnect and as we have a proper logoff that type of stuff can be tracked for petition purposes. If he's only crashing in fleet battles, we might have a bug, if he's only doing it when he's loseing we have an exploit. Now no where here did I mention a pod and this is where I'm torn. I believe the pod should disappear immediatly on LD detection but I'm not sure regarding a normal logoff. After all either his ship is dead or he got out of it so he's no threat as is but might have 10B in implants that will improve him or his mates in the next battle, but I still lean towards it going poof immediatly as more often than not the only reason to kill a pod is to grief the player. Randolf.
Mesacc Gallente	Posted - 2007.01.09 19:14:00 - [61] Let me get this straight. I can shoot a npc wreakage that a player left behind, and I can then go after that player and kill him without concord poping me? Am I understanding this correctly or am I flagging myself to be attacked by the player who left the wreckage?
Xaintrix The Shadow Order Storm Armada	Posted - 2007.01.09 19:22:00 - [62] I'm not a huge PvPer (will when needed) - and honestly the logoff timers and such are just fine. All this "I don't consent to PvP, wah!" stuff falls on deaf ears. Simply by being in the universe, you consent to take risk. Makes sense doesn't it? I drive a car, it's great... I also consent to the fact that some idiot out there might take me out. While we have laws in place to curb rampant road warrior syndrome, doesn't mean I can't get ganked by a drunk driver right? I can't "turn the world off" just for me, and I like how Eve doesn't cut corners either. Such is life as they say, suck it up and fly smart.
Plymer Ization Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2007.01.09 19:49:00 - [63] Edited by: Plymer Ization on 09/01/2007 19:47:25 Originally by: Felysta Sandorn SIMPLE SOLUTION FOR ALL LOG-OFFS The whole point of warping out of bubbles when logged off is to prevent people from dying that have crashed, therefore... ADD IN A LOG ENTRY FOR EXITING THE GAME If someone presses CTRL-Q or the X in the top right of the screen, they are logging off, therefore it will be easy to add in a log entry saying '[Time] Log off'... If someone crashes, they will not get one of these log entries! Now for the simple solution: If this log entry exists, the person in that ship WILL NOT EMERGENCY WARP... This means if they are in a bubble, they will stay in that bubble, logged off... If they are in a belt when another BS arrives, they will stay in that belt if they log off! It would then be up to that pilot to get to a Safe-Spot first, before logging out, or sitting cloaked in the bubble trying to barter his/her way out by bribing the lovely pirates with iskies... The Summary Nearly all of the ships I've lost were due to getting ganked in big blobs (unless I'm just having a 'Felysta day' as my alliance know well :)), so what?! Get over it! It's part of the game! If you don't want to risk running in to a big bubble and gate camp, stay in Empire space! I have never and will never log off to save my ship and/or pod from destruction. It's a part of the game! If you don't want to lose anything when playing games, either go play a single player game, or go play WoW... The problem is, people who are desparate enough to CTRL-Q would probably think nothing of pulling thier network cable out, turning off their wireless antenna, or cutting the power to their computer to 'fake' a crash. Edit - someone already beat me to this, but it reitterates the point.
Raste Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2007.01.09 20:25:00 - [64] I enthusiastically support giving everyone a 15 minute timer regardless of aggression. ===This is a sig=== "no matter where you are or what you're doing, you know that down in the southeast, LV and RA are trying to stab each other in the face." -- Cadiz ==============
Emperor D'Hoffryn No Quarter. C0VEN	Posted - 2007.01.09 20:35:00 - [65] Something needs to be done. You SHOULD NOT be able to rat in 0.0 risk free by simply hitting ctrl-q the moment someone enters local. if im hunting alone in a combat capable ship, guess what, i dont have scan probes anyway. Originally by: Tuxford Yes we don't play on our main accounts simply because you would lose all respect for us
Portios Smith Sanguine Legion	Posted - 2007.01.09 20:41:00 - [66] Originally by: Verone Personally I'd like to see the following. All agressive log off timers increased to 30 minutes. This includes : > Ships that have agressed another player. > Ships that have been agressed by another player. > Ships that are trapped in an anchored bubble or interdiction bubble. > Ships that have been aggressed while logged out, including those who uncloak at a gate after disconnect. > Every player originated damage strike on a ship resets this timer to 30 minutes. > Removal of wreck agression to initiate agression on a player. (lame and should be an exploit imo) > Session change on destruction of ship DOES NOT remove the 30 min countdown, it resets it to 30 mins like any other player initiated damage strike. If a player's disconnect occurs while he agressed to NPC damage only, without player interference, his vessel will dissapear from space after 5 minutes. However if a player agresses him within those 5 minutes, his timer is reset to a 30 minute timer. I think that would solve a lot of problems to be honest, and make logging out basically useless. Everything I needed to say has been said by Verone. I agree 100% with his post, is as if he read my mind. I think the part in bold is critical, I was stunned to find this feature existed in other less PVP friendly games. Sig removed does not contain your name, email [email protected] if you have any questions - Xorus
Portios Smith Sanguine Legion	Posted - 2007.01.09 20:57:00 - [67] Originally by: checkmarquet Edited by: checkmarquet on 09/01/2007 07:59:28 Originally by: Aaron - Scrap the 2 minute and 15 minute aggro timer, (if a pilot does not want to PVP or they are not equipped for PVP why should they face certain destruction?) I agree. How about people having a life? with a family? Dont you ever have to log off in emergency cause your wife needs you? or kids just fall and get hurts? I cant pvp, i WISH i could live in 0.0 but i cant because of this. Pirates wanabee and grievers would says i have to play a offline game or what. But thats only because they need to compansate trying to control something or annoying ppl in game, because IRL they would be kicked. Players claming thats the way it is, have to go get a life. This is a lame excuse, I have a wife and three kids, when they have an emergancy I don't give a @!#$%@#^ if I die in EVE, I get up and take care of it. if I happen to lose my ship/pod well tough luck. IT'S A GAME! I'll get over it and so should you instead of whining and using your family to validate you whine, now that is lame! Sig removed does not contain your name, email [email protected] if you have any questions - Xorus
checkmarquet	Posted - 2007.01.09 21:25:00 - [68] Originally by: Portios Smith Originally by: checkmarquet Edited by: checkmarquet on 09/01/2007 07:59:28 Originally by: Aaron - Scrap the 2 minute and 15 minute aggro timer, (if a pilot does not want to PVP or they are not equipped for PVP why should they face certain destruction?) I agree. How about people having a life? with a family? Dont you ever have to log off in emergency cause your wife needs you? or kids just fall and get hurts? I cant pvp, i WISH i could live in 0.0 but i cant because of this. Pirates wanabee and grievers would says i have to play a offline game or what. But thats only because they need to compansate trying to control something or annoying ppl in game, because IRL they would be kicked. Players claming thats the way it is, have to go get a life. This is a lame excuse, I have a wife and three kids, when they have an emergancy I don't give a @!#$%@#^ if I die in EVE, I get up and take care of it. if I happen to lose my ship/pod well tough luck. IT'S A GAME! I'll get over it and so should you instead of whining and using your family to validate you whine, now that is lame! Lol i bet billions when you die, you just get mad. If you dont, then GO BACK ON EBAY. And take care of your kids instead of annoying ppl.
Zhecao Vai	Posted - 2007.01.09 22:02:00 - [69] Quote: I dont like the idea of socipath players having the ability to control weather someone is involved in PVP or not. You know, I hear Blizzard has this new MMO out, with PvE servers and Battlegrounds.
Apollyon X FIRMA Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.01.09 22:11:00 - [70] IMO pvp is fine. All ccp have to do is control lag better and I would be happy

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