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Sirial Soulfly	Posted - 2007.01.08 10:27:00 - [1] The forever running xl shield booster raven or passive shield tanked drake make for great forum whoring while running a lvl 4 mission, but where is the challenge ? I hereby ask ccp to make lvl 4 missions a lot harder.
Hephaesteus Gallente PILGRIMS Insane Asylum	Posted - 2007.01.08 10:51:00 - [2] If you find running lvl 4 mission in a raven too easy try using a smaller ship, makes them a lot more involving. Personally i'd love to see lvl 5 missions released. Based on gang orientation, now that would be a nice addition to Eve. ----------------------------------------------- Knowing all, when all is unknown.
Trevor McDonald	Posted - 2007.01.08 10:53:00 - [3] I agree & I dont even have a GIST booster, you would have though prices of them would drop now that 3 CCC rigs makes an XL much easier to handle.
Jin Freaks	Posted - 2007.01.08 14:14:00 - [4] There is an easy way to make lvl 4s more difficult. /takes nerfbat and beats caldari to pulp.
Animus Moth The Butterfly FX	Posted - 2007.01.08 14:20:00 - [5] I would have to agree that if something is easy on a BS do it on a BC and sweat a bit more. /emote loves his 3xCCC Raven too much to let it go
DOARota Gallente Drones of Annihilation Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.08 18:43:00 - [6] If you want a challenge, try doing them with a ship from the 3 "non-god" races.I feel it will be a very long time before there is a "Caldari-rebalance" so it might be your best option.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.01.08 19:02:00 - [7] I support all the posts above me with the exclusion of the OP. The principal problem aren't the rig, it is that Raven e Drake are mission running machines, with a performance way greater than the ships by the other races. Said that; I think rigs are broken, but because they are too efficent and at the same time they require too much componets. Most of them give bonus in the 10-15% range, as a good module, and require more than 1 hundred of components. Personally I would have liked them more if they were in the 5% range, (with obviously reduced malus), no staking penalities with modules but heavy staking penalities with identical rigs (maybe increased calibration cost instead of reduced efficency). That would have increased diversity.
Mastin Dragonfly Amarr	Posted - 2007.01.08 19:17:00 - [8] Edited by: Mastin Dragonfly on 08/01/2007 19:14:43 Like others said: drop the raven. Use a turret boat, especially one with cap-sucking hybrids or lasers. As for making them harder: I do not want to have to fly a Raven to be able to beat them, other battleships should be able to do them just fine.
Drek Grapper	Posted - 2007.01.08 19:18:00 - [9] Originally by: Sirial Soulfly The forever running xl shield booster raven or passive shield tanked drake make for great forum whoring while running a lvl 4 mission, but where is the challenge ? I hereby ask ccp to make lvl 4 missions a lot harder. Um..not all of us fly a Raven/Caldari. I've just started the 4's in a Minni BS and its one hell of a challenge! If you do missions to earn isk...keep doing what you are and dont rock the boat. If you want a challenge...as the other posters have mentioned, use a smaller/different ship. Its not rocket science. Drek
Peter Stuyvesant Amarr	Posted - 2007.01.08 20:04:00 - [10] Ban missile use in deadspace, like it is with MWD
Kaptein Trefot Caldari Calista Industries	Posted - 2007.01.08 21:01:00 - [11] Here is a suggestion. If its to easy with rigs - dont use em!
Malleficaria	Posted - 2007.01.08 21:46:00 - [12] /emote way way way signed the above
Animus Moth The Butterfly FX	Posted - 2007.01.08 21:49:00 - [13] /me also signs. Neway tbh rigs only helped out a bit more .. I was already running the booster permanently a long time before Kali, don't c the point in beating a dead goat.
Stickybud	Posted - 2007.01.24 23:10:00 - [14] I'm with the don't rock the boat guy....some lvl 4's may be a bit too easy but why does everything have to be impossible? there are still some tough missions out there...working on lvl 5 missions I think is the way to go, it is...press for that theres still a few that i decline cuz they are a bit rough in a T2 fitting without rigs...maybe just drop the rigs
Xyorite	Posted - 2007.01.25 04:31:00 - [15] Edited by: Xyorite on 25/01/2007 04:28:10 Originally by: Sirial Soulfly The forever running xl shield booster raven or passive shield tanked drake make for great forum whoring while running a lvl 4 mission, but where is the challenge ? I hereby ask ccp to make lvl 4 missions a lot harder. Perma-Shields? I just tried to fit one with the new QuickFit that supports Rigs but could not do it with maxed skill with tech2 gear. Does it take using faction gear to do this or is QuickFit not figuring out rigs right? I would like to see a fitting that can do this if someone has one. --X
Zions Daughter	Posted - 2007.01.25 04:48:00 - [16] Edited by: Zions Daughter on 25/01/2007 04:45:37 Edited by: Zions Daughter on 25/01/2007 04:45:23 i'd also like to see this setup.... but still, caldari are meganerfed in pvp, so they do well in pve, STOP NERFING THEM DAMNIT! edit: poster= alt
Sanzorz Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2007.01.25 09:12:00 - [17] Not all are able to buy the rigs due to money. Would be silly to increase the difficulty of missions for that reason. As said, I'm not in a Raven either and just started on lvl 3 in a Prophecy. --- Currently flying a PvE geared Crusader and Prophecy
FalconHawk Amarr Falcon Advanced Industries	Posted - 2007.01.25 10:47:00 - [18] Originally by: Sirial Soulfly The forever running xl shield booster raven or passive shield tanked drake make for great forum whoring while running a lvl 4 mission, but where is the challenge ? I hereby ask ccp to make lvl 4 missions a lot harder. i hereby ask CCP to nerf that 2 ship to hell and back :p maybe that will serve your problem simply not all players prefer Caldari missile spammer ships
MoonDigger New Dawn Corporation	Posted - 2007.01.25 13:25:00 - [19] OMG another one of those nerf this and nerf that. All of you that have problems with any ship in lvl4 missions are not doing the right thing. My friend is using minmatar ships and he has no problems with lvl4 missions why cos he knows how to use his ship. Its not always going for that wrecking shot and not having any tracking. Stop asking for nerfs and start learning the right skills to use the stuff that you buy from the market. I dont cry cos my raven sucks in pvp i live with it and suck it up and again with the right setup i still manage to beat ppl in my raven in pvp from time to time. Raven is as good in running missions as any other ship if you know how to use your stuff. By the way by nerfing one race you are just making it harder for your selfs as well whene they see that the nerf you asked for now is going to make your apoc or what ever other ship way too uber for anything else. Topics like this are discusting.
godders89	Posted - 2007.01.25 15:20:00 - [20] Originally by: Sirial Soulfly The forever running xl shield booster raven wats the setup on that then cus i never could get ir to run without running out
Terghon Tu Amarr	Posted - 2007.01.25 19:02:00 - [21] I think a big problem is the fact that you can even run a capital-class (XL) shield booster on a Raven, let alone run it forever. If the Drake has a similar potential regen with passive regen only, obviously a little tweaking there wouldn't hurt either. I run Amarr ships (pauses for everyone to roll their eyes) and find some of the L4s very challenging. Most of them aren't bad, but quite a few are very safe. I have about 13-million skill points, no faction gear, and mostly T2 fittings (except for guns). I'd love to see some L5 agents come out with missions that just plain can't be soloed even in an over-fitted and rigged Raven. A lot of people complain about nerf requests, but you have to agree that there's a problem when well over half the mission-runners use a Raven (the PvE battleship of choice), and now PvPers are all flocking to the Rokh as the ultimate sniper ship. I play my own game, and nerfing missiles or Caldari ships won't make it any more or less fun for me. I chose to go Amarr, and am having fun within that "limitation." But if I were a dev worried about overall balance, I'd be taking a hard look at Caldari ships and missiles. ---------- The right to do something doesn't make doing it right.
Kerfira	Posted - 2007.01.25 22:09:00 - [22] I think the 'problem' can be nailed dovn to the CCC rig being too good. 15% CAP recharge each, and absolutely no disadvantage is just too much. I fly a CNR myself in missions, and with 3 CCC's on it (this is quickfit figures since I haven't tried it), I can STILL fit 3 BCS II's and thus still deal out as much damage, while running my Gist C-Type X-Large SB, plus 3 Dread Guristas Invulns (which suck a lot of CAP compared to the normal ones) and a DC. The only sacrifice I had to make was taking off a Shield Boost Amp and put a CAP Recharger II in instead. Now, you used to be able to perma-boost a Gist equipped Raven before, but it required you to sacrifice damage to do so. Now, it can be done without any significant penalty. In addition, there are NO other rigs that are useful on a 3 BCS equipped Raven. The missile ones don't stack well, and compared to the benefits of the CCC's, the rest are not worth it either. But as I said, I think the cause of the imbalance is that the CCC is too good. Give it some disadvantages, and things will be fine.....
Galimiy Portret R.u.S.H. Red Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.26 00:21:00 - [23] Shush, all of you! You are going to get them nerfed if you whine like this. ...now in RED
Billbo Fagends	Posted - 2007.01.26 08:30:00 - [24] Running missions in a Raven was already a snooze fest long before rigs ever showed up. Every man and his dog,grand mother, baby sister, knows how stupidly easy level 4 missions are in a raven, there is a reason it is the most common bs used by mission runners. As others have said already try a turret boat, they will provide a greater challenge in level 4's, better still try Gallente or Amarr bs's where cap drain can be an issue to consider. I have flown the odd level 4 in a taranis, enyo, even a celestis just to see how well I can do, it is also a great way to practice using a high transversal approach, one*****up and your toast. They can take an absolute age to clear but can be tremendous fun, if you can't get out of your raven once in a while and find missions boring you only have yourself to blame.
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.26 11:02:00 - [25] Obviously the OP has not done the lvl4's in low sec cosmos, and is talking about the easy peasy lvl4's handed out by some agent in a 0.8 system. Please try Aurosad War Complex part 9 and then come back and lets see how well you tank 4k dps (of all damagetypes) -- Slot 10 Blacklight's Modified 'GMhaX' implant +8% Pwnage FREE
Grimreaperr The Eternal Knights	Posted - 2007.01.26 12:44:00 - [26] No matter what changes ccp make there's always a moaner trying to chage things for eveyone else, get a life its a game. If it don't suit you just change the way you do lvl 4 missions to make it harder for you!!!!
MoonDigger New Dawn Corporation	Posted - 2007.01.26 13:19:00 - [27] Guys i have 23mil sp most of them are in combat for my raven. Shield and missiels skills are on max practiclly and i still dont think that missions are that easy in a t2 fitted raven. I do missions in a gisti fitted raven in empier and sure they are easy whene i have that booster that is very easy on cap and on that raven i have a em shield, rof and cap recharge rig. Works great no problems tanking anything at all. On my low sec raven i have an em, thermal and kinetic rig on it and all the rest of the setup is t2. With that t2 booster its very hard to run missions even with all the sp that i have and the low grade crystal implants. Who ever thinks that getting a raven will solve all your problems with mission runnin be my guest and try it before you start talking about things that you dont know about. And plz send me that setup with a perm boost from a t2 xl booster on a raven i would love to know how can you make that happen even with all the cap rigs and have any resistance to do a mission and not get killed. And as many ppl already wrote here learn to play the game and use your skills the right way. For the guy who wrote that its harder for amarr and gallente to run missions you should know that not every caldari uses missiels there are those rails as well and there are many that use them and i think they use the same amount of cap like any other gun exept the minmatar guns.
passey	Posted - 2007.01.26 13:21:00 - [28] Originally by: Terghon Tu I think a big problem is the fact that you can even run a capital-class (XL) shield booster on a Raven, well to let u know xl is not capital class a capital shield booster is capital class not xl
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.26 14:44:00 - [29] Originally by: Terghon Tu I think a big problem is the fact that you can even run a capital-class (XL) shield booster on a Raven, let alone run it forever. If the Drake has a similar potential regen with passive regen only, obviously a little tweaking there wouldn't hurt either. Capital Class Booster on a raven? A XL is not capital class, as this capital shield booster demonstrates. 75,000 powergrid means no raven is going to fit it. You went on to talk about the Drake Passive regen - Guess what - A drake can do a simaler passive regen as a raven can via xlbooster active tank. Then you talked about running lvl4's in a Amarr ship. I have ran them in amarr ships before, and here is a secret - Fit 2 7.5km or larger smartbombs and instablast those pesky rats. You also need a afterburner to catchup with those nasty rats that try to orbit you -- Slot 10 Blacklight's Modified 'GMhaX' implant +8% Pwnage FREE
Elderberry Whine	Posted - 2007.01.26 15:18:00 - [30] NERF CALDARI NERF CALDARI NERF CALDARI NERF CALDARI NERF CALDARI NERF CALDARI NERF CALDARI NERF CALDARI NERF CALDARI Originally by: Sirial Soulfly The forever running xl shield booster raven or passive shield tanked drake make for great forum whoring while running a lvl 4 mission, but where is the challenge ? I hereby ask ccp to make lvl 4 missions a lot harder.
Tarron Sarek Gallente Solid Industries Inc.	Posted - 2007.01.26 15:32:00 - [31] Nerf? Balance is the keyword. Yes, missiles might be of little use in fleet fights. But honestly, waiting until every new Caldari player has finally realized that is not an option. I think the PvE component is far too one-sided. Better make missiles more useful in fleets and take away some of their no brainer advantages. ___________________________________ _/_/ Game balance isn't just a luxury \_\_
Kehmor Caldari PAK	Posted - 2007.01.26 16:09:00 - [32] up the speed of and add two med slots to every caldari ship. Then make it so they can't enter deadspace. I'll be happy to have something i can solo pvp in.
Terghon Tu Amarr	Posted - 2007.01.26 17:25:00 - [33] My apologies for my lack of research. I assumed (incorrectly) that XL shield boosters were the next step in class beyond Large boosters. Small = Frigate, Medium = Cruiser/BC, Large = Battleship, XL = capital... but I was mistaken. That said, I examined the difference between Lg and XL shield boosters and the step up is even larger between them the the step between Small, Med, and Lg. Each step basically doubles, and the XL step is double and a little bit. There's no XL equivalent for armor repairers. If there was, I think you'd see a lot fewer "nerf Caldari" rants. That the Drake can get a passive shield regen similar to a Raven with that over-classed XL booster does seem to be a problem to me. Still, even given a "perfect" tank, the dps of a battlecruiser should be significantly less than what a battleship can put out. On a turret-boat, this is certainly true. Not sure if it holds true for missile boats. If you can fit the same amount and same type of launchers on both, there's probably some balance issues there as well (you can't use large guns on a battlecruiser effectively at all). Guns follow the pattern of Small = frigate, med = cruiser, large = battleship, just like armor repairers and (except for that XL) shield boosters. Missiles though... they don't appear to follow Light = frig, Hvy = cruiser, Cruise = battleship. There are torps, making for 4 missile classes so the progression is thrown off. How does this relate to L4 missions? Well, I see L4 missions as being more or less balanced to a turret-boat. I think the easier L4s could be classed as L3s, and some more of the harder ones created to fill in L4. I think that maybe a 20% or so increase in the overall difficulty of L4s would be doable without preventing fresh-battleship pilots from having a chance. If a missile boat, or the XL-boosted Raven, is not challenged by these same missions, obviously there is a balance issue there. Making the L4s hard enough to challenge those ships would make them nearly undoable with "lesser" ships. CCP has already mentioned they want to shift PvE (missions and ratting) away from hordes of easy-to-kill ships, to a few much harder ships. Instead of 100 ships, we'll face 10, but it will be just as hard (in theory). After that transition, we can look at balance again, because I think that might seriously affect the current PvE balance between ship types. One last point about the balance between missile-boats and turret-boats. My opinion is that one of the key advantages of a missile-boat is being able to adjust your damage type. With my Amarr lasers, I do EM/Therm, regardless of what I'm facing. If a rat has high resists in EM/Therm, missions with those rats are harder for me. If I was using missiles, I'd simply load up whatever the rat was weakest on (the same way we adjust our tanks for max resistance to rat weapons). So possibly giving turret-users access to all the damage types would help balance PvE play as well. Then we might want to look at raising the bar for everyone. I'd like to see L5 missions for the bored Raven pilots, even if I wouldn't have a prayer of doing one myself. I'd also point them currently toward COSMOS and exploration if they're looking for a challenge. ---------- The right to do something doesn't make doing it right.
Tarron Sarek Gallente Solid Industries Inc.	Posted - 2007.01.26 18:18:00 - [34] Quote: My opinion is that one of the key advantages of a missile-boat is being able to adjust your damage type. That is a big advantage, yes. But the two main advantages are: 1. Missiles always hit. You don't have to think about optimal, falloff or tracking at all. I guess most battleship pilots using turrets would be very happy if their guns always hit, even for reduced damage on smaller targets.. 2. Missiles need no cap. That means more energy for your tank or no cap dependency (passive shield tank) at all. In short, especially using a passive tank, they're a lazy man's wet dream. ___________________________________ _/_/ Game balance isn't just a luxury \_\_
Inspiration	Posted - 2007.01.26 19:09:00 - [35] The advantage of missile over turrets in NPC combat will be over as soon as CCP implements the reduction of the number of NPC ships in missions. Turrents will have the advantage when hitting a few large tough targets, simply because they dont need uber tracking and they do more DPS. No point in complaining about Caldai being tactialy superior in missions atm. One race has to be given a given setting. And in PvP, caldari are not the super race they are in PvE. A point can be made however that missions are not diverse enaugh and thus favor just one race. But as I explained, that is most likely about to change! This thread is basicly a year too late, and riggs have nothing to do with it. Other races can fit those just the same, and an APOC is more helped by extra cap recharge then a raven. So the argument is kind of pointless!
Toaster Oven	Posted - 2007.01.26 19:11:00 - [36] No need to nerf rigs. Just up NPC defender rate by 500%. Problem solved
Kingpin Jin	Posted - 2007.01.26 19:32:00 - [37] Rigs and shield tanking in a Raven easy, as in easy to run T2 XL and have lows filled with dmg upgrades? Riiight. Many lvl4's require you to tank a long time. So not much pause for rest (on the harder missions of course): Raven Permatank example: Gist X-Type Shield Boost Amplifier Dread Guristas Invulnerability Field Dread Guristas Invulnerability Field X-Large Shield Booster II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Power Diagnostic System II Power Diagnostic System II Power Diagnostic System II Power Diagnostic System II Power Diagnostic System II Rigs : Capacitor Control Circuit I \ Capacitor Control Circuit I \ Capacitor Control Circuit I \ 8475 cap, +95.1/s, -79.667/s You can run this with 80/s cap regen if you take out one CCC1 rig. Look what happens if you remove one CPRII: T2 XL Raven (runs about 6m50s, sometimes long enough to kill enough dmg dealers) Gist X-Type Shield Boost Amplifier Dread Guristas Invulnerability Field Dread Guristas Invulnerability Field X-Large Shield Booster II Cap Recharger II Empty Slot Power Diagnostic System II Power Diagnostic System II Power Diagnostic System II Power Diagnostic System II Power Diagnostic System II Rigs : Capacitor Control Circuit I \ Capacitor Control Circuit I \ Capacitor Control Circuit I \ 8475 cap, +76.08/s, -79.667/s "Gank" Raven runs aprox 2m45s until cap 30%, any lower and the max recharge gets smaller and smaller and tank will fail quickly. Gist X-Type Shield Boost Amplifier Dread Guristas Invulnerability Field Dread Guristas Invulnerability Field X-Large Shield Booster II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Power Diagnostic System II Power Diagnostic System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Rigs : Capacitor Control Circuit I \ Capacitor Control Circuit I \ Capacitor Control Circuit I \ 7321 cap, +62.93/s, -79.667/s A good armor tanking ship with good modules/skills is not far behind with its Dual Large reppers. So to state "OMG XL shield boosters should be nerfed", is not a very solid argument.
Inspiration	Posted - 2007.01.26 20:12:00 - [38] Edited by: Inspiration on 26/01/2007 20:10:12 Some wanted to have a Raven, T2 only setup that can permaboost, so I played a bit with quickfit: High: 2 x cruise missile launchers 4 x siege missile launchers 2 x dual modulated light energy beam Med: 1 x X-Large Shield Booster II 2 x Shield boost amplifier II 2 x Invulnerability field II 1 x Cap recharger II Low: 1 x Ballistic control system II 1 x Local powerplant Manager: Capacitor power relay I 3 x Beta Reactor Control: Capacitor Flux I Riggs: 3 x Capacitor Control Circuit I This should be able to handle frigs, cruisers and BS NPC and have a permaboost tank when you got good cap and shield compensation skills. With my skills I even got 4 cap/sec to spare!!! I also took the liberty of calculating the tank strength of this setup. It did better then other vairants on the same theme, so consider this a decent and cheap setup template. Permaboost tank: 465 DPS on EM 585 DPS on Thermal 776 DPS on Kinetic 1164 DPS on Explosive Please be aware that this is only the active portion of the tank. When you receive more damage, passive regen also starts to play a role, but it's not significant. Crystal implants, better amplifiers and invuls and Gist booster can further improve the tank and/or free up slots. The point was however that with sufficient skills and a bit creative mixing of modules a decent omni-tank can be made very cheaply. I am sure better ones exist out there, but I thrown this together from some 'garbage' modules in just under 10 minutes. This post actualy takes the most time, lol! Inspiration
Toaster Oven	Posted - 2007.01.26 20:44:00 - [39] It's really easy to have a permaboost Raven using only TII gear if you have good skills (5/5/5 cap skills) 6x Cruise Missile Launcher II Heavy Diminishing NOS Small Tractor Beam XL SB II 3x TII passive hardeners 2x TII Shield Boost Amplifier 3x Beta Reactor Control CPR 2x BCU II 3x CCC rigs Total cap output: 68.3cap/s Total cap drain: 72cap/s The 3.7cap/s deficit is easily made up by the Heavy Dim NOS and the CPR shield boost penalty is more than negated by the 2nd TII Shield boost amp (830hp/5s). Simple and inexpensive.
Illminatis	Posted - 2007.01.26 23:40:00 - [40] This doesn't relate to the OP, but I see a lot of people calculating cap/second by just diving the Total cap by the recharge time. This, however, is the most common fallacy in the EVE world. Capacitor recharge rates are not, in fact, linear. The cap recharges fastest when it reaches 30%, at which point your cap can recharge at around 2.3* ( Total cap/ recharge rate). So, if your have a total cap of 500, and a recharge rate of 100, you can actually sustain ~(2.3 * 5) or ~11.5 cap/second. I'm sure many are aware, but I hope that many more become enlightened =)
Strel Samodelkin Caldari Nationalist Party	Posted - 2007.01.27 00:09:00 - [41] Originally by: Elderberry Whine NERF CALDARI NERF CALDARI NERF CALDARI NERF CALDARI NERF CALDARI NERF CALDARI NERF CALDARI NERF CALDARI NERF CALDARI Originally by: Sirial Soulfly The forever running xl shield booster raven or passive shield tanked drake make for great forum whoring while running a lvl 4 mission, but where is the challenge ? I hereby ask ccp to make lvl 4 missions a lot harder. Caldari pwn! Other races can tank just as well, its just that they're all noobs!
Kingpin Jin	Posted - 2007.01.27 12:27:00 - [42] Originally by: Toaster Oven It's really easy to have a permaboost Raven using only TII gear if you have good skills (5/5/5 cap skills) XL SB II 3x TII passive hardeners 2x TII Shield Boost Amplifier 3x Beta Reactor Control CPR 2x BCU II 3x CCC rigs Total cap output: 68.3cap/s Total cap drain: 72cap/s The 3.7cap/s deficit is easily made up by the Heavy Dim NOS and the CPR shield boost penalty is more than negated by the 2nd TII Shield boost amp (830hp/5s). Simple and inexpensive. Simple, inexpensive and ineffective... why on earth you would gimp your main life attribute like the boost like that? Without implants you boost only max 170dps, when without the -10% CPR modules you would boost 227 dps. With so few passive hardeners you end up with a weak tank (weak boost and resistances) against for example the Angels.
Toaster Oven	Posted - 2007.01.27 12:56:00 - [43] Originally by: Kingpin Jin Simple, inexpensive and ineffective... why on earth you would gimp your main life attribute like the boost like that? Without implants you boost only max 170dps, when without the -10% CPR modules you would boost 227 dps. With so few passive hardeners you end up with a weak tank (weak boost and resistances) against for example the Angels. Riiight. Now show me a setup that maintains 227hp/s without gimping your damage using only TII equipment. Can't do it? Didn't think so. Some people are just retarded. FFS 170hp/s weak? LOL
Doragee Minmatar Unknown Society	Posted - 2007.01.27 13:14:00 - [44] Hell....idiotic thread...i still don't have any Rigs installed and i stillt don't have more than 8,5mioSP w. most cap related skills @lvl4 and look: I still have a Gist-XL-Booster running 24/7... I will not equip Rigs as they are not needed and i use these spare iskies for buying things for my other chars...capital skills e.g. are expensive... --
Kingpin Jin	Posted - 2007.01.27 14:14:00 - [45] Edited by: Kingpin Jin on 27/01/2007 14:12:11 Originally by: Toaster Oven Originally by: Kingpin Jin Simple, inexpensive and ineffective... why on earth you would gimp your main life attribute like the boost like that? Without implants you boost only max 170dps, when without the -10% CPR modules you would boost 227 dps. With so few passive hardeners you end up with a weak tank (weak boost and resistances) against for example the Angels. Riiight. Now show me a setup that maintains 227hp/s without gimping your damage using only TII equipment. Can't do it? Didn't think so. Some people are just retarded. FFS 170hp/s weak? LOL Well you have a point, it's better than running T2 large. Then again I was responding more to the general sense that XL shield boosters are "balanced" as they are and not easy to maintain, at least the T2 variants. Even a Gist X XL booster is not easy run sustained without dedicated modules that help cap recharge (I'm in general against using modules that gimp the tank from it's maximum potential). 170hp/s is weak when I'm comparing it to my Dom faction shield tank 457hp/s with resistances like below running sustained. emexpkinthe 0,74020,85250,77880,7936 Well I guess I am retarded by your standards Not very nice of you...
Inspiration	Posted - 2007.01.27 16:51:00 - [46] Edited by: Inspiration on 27/01/2007 16:53:09 Peeps, I see all kind of useless numbers being thrown around atm. The amount of HP you repair is only part of the story, and not even the most significant part, resists play a huge role as well. Lets say you have 50% em resist and boost 100 HP/sec, then that boost is saturated when 200 DPS of EM damage is applied to your tank. The resists alone tell me very little, and the repait per second doesn't say a lot either. You have to combine them to determine how strong your tank is. In general it is easyer get 50% more resists then it is to sustainably repair 50% more per second! http://members.chello.nl/p.heer3/shieldresist.htm The above URL helps you to rate your tank. Try various different idea's in QuickFit, then enter the resists it reports and the repair/sec numbers in the above page and see how good your design realy is. The reported numers are the only meaningful numbers, so use those instead! As a sidenote...it is nearly impossible to create a cheap sustainable strong armor tank on T1 ships upto the battleship class. And for this very reason PvE heavily favours Shield tanking. Something you will find out for yourself when you play the numbers! In PvE you need about 900-1000 DPS tank when your tactics rely on being able to tank nearly every level 4 mission. With more involving tactics you can make do with 600 DPS, but you risk getting blown up when you make a mistake or have some misfortune. Anyway, rate your own tank, and then compare settings you find in this and the ships and modules forum. What might look uber at first is often just crap....do the math. Quickfit and the page above make that easy to do. You problably save yourself hundreds of millions ISK by not having to buy that uber looking mod that in the end doesnt realy improve your setup a lot.
Ezra Gallente Calista Industries	Posted - 2007.01.27 22:56:00 - [47] Originally by: Hephaesteus If you find running lvl 4 mission in a raven too easy try using a smaller ship, makes them a lot more involving. Personally i'd love to see lvl 5 missions released. Based on gang orientation, now that would be a nice addition to Eve. I don't want to see level 5 missions until CCP manages to fix the buddy agro bug (aka the drone bug). As it is, it is already easier to run many missions (Angel Ex and Serpentis Ex for example) solo to avoid triggering the buddy agro bug. If the buddy agro bug remains, level 5 missions will be impossible. ------------ Ezra Cornell pe0n, Calista Industries
Zissou 5 November	Posted - 2007.01.27 23:49:00 - [48] CCC's can be fitted to all battleships. As such they provide an equal boost to tanking ability across the 4 factions.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.01.28 07:54:00 - [49] Originally by: Zissou CCC's can be fitted to all battleships. As such they provide an equal boost to tanking ability across the 4 factions. Not exactly. A shield tanking ship has fast repair capability an armor one has slow repair capability. So a armor tanking ship can die with unused capacity, for a shield one it is more difficult. So the effect on tanking is not the same.
Petrothian Tong Gallente	Posted - 2007.01.28 08:43:00 - [50] easily solution Nerf Caldari =P try using a tempest or an apoc to do it.. I dare ya =P...or even an mega... we all know Caldari (or Ravens/Drakes) are eve on Easy mode.... (domi is up there as well, but since drones are a b*tch to use...and aggro everything..) -- Today my drones attacked a brothel without even being told too. Either they objected to the establishment or they heard about the hot drinks machine in there... Yakumo
Gorjer	Posted - 2007.01.29 00:33:00 - [51] OKay, i actually think im the only one that thinks this. Caldari is the pwn at pvp when it comes to the cerberus/ sometimes raven. Okay im gonna start by saying how terrible the drake is first. It is terrible at missions, i mean useless, as theres no point doing lvl3's with it cause its too damn slow. (just use a Hac, or even tech 1 cruiser) Secondly, its terrible at lvl 4's because its sig radius with LSE2's is astronmical. Together with its pathetic range, as well as battleships defender spammage, it'll take you ages to complete the mission. Therefore drakes are not worth toffi. Okay, so i made my point about how useeless drajes are, now im happy, so just do lvl4's in a raven, good range, torps/cruise are pretty much unaffected by defenders, and a good tank. Thats fine. But the thing i think that is most underestimed by caldari is its pvp. E.g. The Cerberus, its an amazing ship, great tank, awesome damage and the range (100km easily with good skills) And has the ability to tackle if you want to have a lesser tank. Also you got more specialist ships such as the rook - arguable the best E.W ship ingame, how about no tank needed cause your not gonna get shot at . I'm not trying to say nerf Caldari at all, cause in my opinion, in order to be efficient with lvl4 missions you have to be a skiled raven pilot, everything else is *******s. Also cerberus are insanely expensive, so its more of a luxery pvp ship. Tbh, theres lots of nice Caldari ships, that in my opinion are balanced for pvp and pve (Raven being the exception for PVE) theres just no point in that damn Drake, its a lame excuse of a ship.
Krav Egad Inc. Sparta Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.29 01:01:00 - [52] Ships are not balanced for PVE as much as they are for PVP. That is my opinion based on what I see. I don't find the raven overpowering everything in PVP. Therefore, my radical suggestion is you leave the ships alone and deal with the npcs. Part of the "need for speed" initiative is a redesign, lowering rat numbers, increasing offensive strength and bounties, etc, so you have the same difficulty/payout with the mission, but less lag from sheer npc numbers. This is, in my opinion, the perfect time to be asking for npc factions to get a second looking at. Frankly, bringing lasers to a guristas or (especially) angel mission is a lesson in patience, frustration, and boredom, along with an increase in difficulty for the same mission the raven does half asleep. Things like uber-high secondary resists need to be adressed to provide all ships the ability to compete. I wish for the day when I can do caldari missions in my Amarr ships in a halfway decent time compared to ravens. Sure, the raven can still be better, but the disparities currently existing are too great. To put it succinctly: leave ships alone, but change NPC stats to balance ships. One of the most noticible problems is not in tanking but in ganking due to high EM resists on angels, for example, which gives the raven a HUGE advantage in completing missions over Apoc / Geddon. It may still be harder to kill angels in an apoc vs a raven, but I do not think it should be this MUCH harder. Use NPC stats to change this. Krav ===== Stacking Penalties and you
Don Temujin Mothers of EVE	Posted - 2007.01.29 01:37:00 - [53] Edited by: Don Temujin on 29/01/2007 01:39:00 Edited by: Don Temujin on 29/01/2007 01:36:29 Quick and easy fix, hitting two birds with one stone: fix defender missiles. ...then fit some on NPCs. After the new recon launcher (which is hardpoint-agnostic), why not add a "Defender Launcher" that can similarly be fitted on any ship regardless of whether they have launcher hardpoints or not, and that will spam defenders at the locked target the launcher is activated on. That would also provide a role for T1 ships in plexes, and at last would offer a counterpart to the tracking disruptors (but keep it a high slot so that there must be a tradeoff on offensive capacity for fitting a Defender Launcher. :) When it comes to PvE, that wouldn't prevent a raven/drake from farming afk with a ph4t tank, but would hurt the dps enough to reduce profitability over time, and make mission runners favoring a more challenging playstyle (read turrets) competitive.
Ralara Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2007.01.29 13:35:00 - [54] Originally by: Terghon Tu I think a big problem is the fact that you can even run a capital-class (XL) shield booster on a Raven, let alone run it forever. If the Drake has a similar potential regen with passive regen only, obviously a little tweaking there wouldn't hurt either. I run Amarr ships (pauses for everyone to roll their eyes) and find some of the L4s very challenging. Most of them aren't bad, but quite a few are very safe. I have about 13-million skill points, no faction gear, and mostly T2 fittings (except for guns). I'd love to see some L5 agents come out with missions that just plain can't be soloed even in an over-fitted and rigged Raven. A lot of people complain about nerf requests, but you have to agree that there's a problem when well over half the mission-runners use a Raven (the PvE battleship of choice), and now PvPers are all flocking to the Rokh as the ultimate sniper ship. I play my own game, and nerfing missiles or Caldari ships won't make it any more or less fun for me. I chose to go Amarr, and am having fun within that "limitation." But if I were a dev worried about overall balance, I'd be taking a hard look at Caldari ships and missiles. I am a corp thief. Don't ever let me in your corp, else I'll rob you all.
Smoking Mirror Secret Interests Inc.	Posted - 2007.01.29 15:27:00 - [55] Edited by: Smoking Mirror on 29/01/2007 15:31:36 They don't need to make level 4s harder. They need to 1. Adjust missions so that missile spamming Ravens aren't so clearly superior to everything else and 2. Fix the other ship/weapon types, especially lasers. SOME disparity is okay. The current disparity is simply too large.
Caldorous Gallente	Posted - 2007.01.29 15:47:00 - [56] Originally by: Smoking Mirror Edited by: Smoking Mirror on 29/01/2007 15:31:36 They don't need to make level 4s harder. They need to 1. Adjust missions so that missile spamming Ravens aren't so clearly superior to everything else I agree, care to show a hint how it should be done? -----------------------------
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.01.29 17:07:00 - [57] Originally by: Don Temujin Edited by: Don Temujin on 29/01/2007 01:39:00 Edited by: Don Temujin on 29/01/2007 01:36:29 Quick and easy fix, hitting two birds with one stone: fix defender missiles. ...then fit some on NPCs. After the new recon launcher (which is hardpoint-agnostic), why not add a "Defender Launcher" that can similarly be fitted on any ship regardless of whether they have launcher hardpoints or not, and that will spam defenders at the locked target the launcher is activated on. That would also provide a role for T1 ships in plexes, and at last would offer a counterpart to the tracking disruptors (but keep it a high slot so that there must be a tradeoff on offensive capacity for fitting a Defender Launcher. :) When it comes to PvE, that wouldn't prevent a raven/drake from farming afk with a ph4t tank, but would hurt the dps enough to reduce profitability over time, and make mission runners favoring a more challenging playstyle (read turrets) competitive. anti-missiles work fine for NPC, they have different Am than players.
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.01.29 17:28:00 - [58] Defender missiles are not the answer to be honest. For example, the boss of some 6/10's spams enough defenders to pretty much destroy most missiles over a certain range. How do you counter defenders? Just fly upto the offender. What should happen is that upon warp in to a mission, the whole spawn should aggro and switch targets intelligently. Send in 4 battleships and the enemy will splits its attack over 4 players insted of 1. In pve, the probem is that as long as someone is tanking, there is no real incentive for anyone else to tank, and as such, any other players are gank fitted. This imbalance is why people solo missions - If you can tank it, it may take longer, but it can be soloed. Factional Warfare will solve this entirely, since pvp setups will become norm then. -- Slot 10 Blacklight's Modified 'GMhaX' implant +8% Pwnage FREE
Cupdeez Vengeance of the Fallen Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.29 18:51:00 - [59] Anyone that can fly fly caldari knows the raven is the best ship for running missions. I have a few different players Min/Caldari/gallante and I must say the Raven is by far the easiest. Now with that said it does not mean the other races can't run the missions. It just takes more time and sometimes requires more warpping. O'yah the rigs help a ton but the only way you can run a XL sheild booster is if you are using the Gisti types. So if you want to run a 2 billion isk BS to run agent missions faster no problem by me.. More risk(expensive ship) = better pay(faster agent missions) Cheap ships > less pay I know on my megathron with 425 T2's I can kill my cap just shooting my guns let alone tank anything. (all gunnery, engineering, electronic skills are at lvl 5 for people that want to say something about skillz) My alts Tempest does crazy hit damage but can't really do anything about frigates since it has a small drone bay. Plus it can't tank as well as the Raven becaues of the lack of mid slots. Signature filesize exceeds max limit of 24000 bytes. Mail us if you have questions -Eldo Davip
chuckus	Posted - 2007.01.30 04:44:00 - [60] Hmm.. just about 3 years in this game and I have yet to do a lvl 4 in a raven. I must be missing out :) Seriously, you're skills and tactics will determin how long and how 'easy' a mission is. I will admit that Angel extravaganza is a pain in the ass for beam only.. but even when using a regular ol' apoc, I found 2 rocketlaunchers fitted with defenders meant I never touched my repair untill room 3 turret spam. All that beeing said.. Nightmare is the best mission runner in the game hands down. All the best of an apoc and raven.. none of the bad. Yes having all the ship skills maxed that are relavent to running it helps but is more icing on the cake ;) As to your origional point about the lvl 4's beeing easy.. well playing the game and learning how to do the jobs, for those of us who prefer pve, is kind of inevetable that you will get to be able to do them with ease. Not everyone does missions and I have known several players who have been playing for around the same time I have who do not do so well. PVE vs PVP are two totaly different mind sets.. and the skills gained doing one do not translate well doing the other. So in short, stop trying to make the game harder for those who have not been missin running since there birth. Think of the poor N00b's next time eh?

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