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Kinsei Isamu
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Posted - 2007.01.08 16:48:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Kinsei Isamu on 08/01/2007 16:46:13 Edited by: Kinsei Isamu on 08/01/2007 16:46:05 Edited by: Kinsei Isamu on 08/01/2007 16:45:22
Everyone knew that this would come up eventually. It needs to be discussed maturely. No flaming is needed. Discuss the issue calmly and objectively. I provide a possible solution at the end. Please suggest your own ideas for fixing the issue. Or, discuss why you think it is balanced.
Description of issue Shield rig drawback: sig radius penalty Armor rig drawback: speed penalty
The penalties for these rigs seem skewed when considering balance.
Sig radius isn't much of a penalty. Explaination: - A battleship fitting a shield rig isn't going to suffer. A shield tanking battleship is taking full damage from any missiles except citadel torps anyway. There is no drawback vs guns in practice. - A battlecruiser/CS fitting the shield rigs receives very little drawback from being hit by a Battleship using torps; and as far as I can tell, no drawback from being hit by a Battleship using cruise. There is no drawback vs guns in practice. - Rigs seem to be designed so that they are far too expensive to be used on most smaller ships, thus this is not worth discussing. Perhaps shield tanking HACs would be hurt from this while taking on Battleships?
Now what about armor? - A battleship using armor rigs recieves between a 27% and a 15% penalty to speed. Speed is absolutely vital to armor tanked ships such as the Tempest, Typhoon, Armageddon, and Megathron/Hyperion. These ships are over penalized. They could use a speed rig to help compensate, but shield tanked battleships don't need to use any "supporting" rigs that limit their tanking abilities. - A battle cruiser/CS also recieves the above mentioned speed penalty. The Harbringer, Brutix, Hurricane armor tank and need speed to get close (OR KITE!) the enemy. - Cruisers like the rupture, muninn, thorax, deimos, maller, and zealot all need their speed to survive. Not much more to say, here... Any of those ships minus 27%-15% of its speed is pretty much screwed.
Recap: - Speed is a very severe penalty on armored ships which also tend to be gun ships when you consider the penalty on a ship by ship basis). These ships must either not use tank rigs, or they must use a speed rig to help compensate. - When you consider the main large shield tanked ships (Maelstrom, Raven, Scorpion, Drake, Caldari CCs, Sleipnir) , these ships do not incur a significant disadvantage for fitting an uber tank. Their rig fitting is not limited by requiring a rig to make up for the drawback of another rig.
How to fix it! Suggestion 1: Rig drawbacks seem VERY poorly designed! They have a flat 10% drawback amount on their selected drawback attribute. My suggestion is to rethink the drawback amount. If CCP were to reduce armor drawback amount, this would balance things up a bit. Suggestion 2: One might notice that the shield drawback issue makes a certain kind of sense. You can tank better, but you're taking more damage from larger ships. Perhaps armor rigs need a similar consideration. Perhaps a drawback similar to shields (large sig radius), or a drawback to structure HP.
Allow me to state that I fly all Caldari ships. I enjoy my Drake a great deal. I can't wait to have my Raven!! I certainly do not want shield rigs nerfed. This is NOT NECESSARY.
However, it is simple to see that armor rigs need some "love".
We know Tuxford "pre-nerfed" rigs. It would appear that some rigs got "pre-nerfed" more than others. Perhaps we should urge Tuxford to look at this issue more closely!
How about it?
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velocoraptor
Art of War Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.01.08 16:53:00 -
[2]
Got 2 chars. One fly Gallente, other Caldari. I think you're right, so:
/signed.
Kali IS the goddess of destruction after all |
Diana Merris
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.01.08 17:00:00 -
[3]
As currently implemented Shield rigs work exactly the same as shield extenders, +HP +sig.
Armor plates and rigs both increase HP but plates increase mass while rigs decrease speed. Would it be better if the rigs increased ship mass by a percentage and thus only penelized you when using an AB or MWD ?
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Jovialmadness
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Posted - 2007.01.08 17:02:00 -
[4]
yet another reason to join Caldari online
Quote: As a side note, i liken capacitor to blood. Without blood, nothing can function in the body. I do NOT like being a race that bleeds quicker than anyone else. yes, i am an alt..Jovial Quote:
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Blue Rider
Coonass Cajun an dem Crawdad Capsewl Combatuns Soldiers of the Forgotten Abyss
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Posted - 2007.01.08 17:19:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Blue Rider on 08/01/2007 17:17:09 May or may not be the best solutions but, one thing seems pretty clear... the armor rigs are meant for distance fighters not for close-up ships. Or, at least distance fighters could potentially take the most advantage from the armor rigs.
How about: The HP bonues armor rigs lower the agility of the fitting ship by a %, meaning you'll have more armor but you better be more adept at steering your ship properly. The repair bonus armor rigs can lower the the overall capacitor size (since using the repair duration rig already causes you to use more cap sooner, there's no sense in having it have a cap recharge penalty). This would complement, what I see as a shorter fight module, in that you will be able to tank more in a short time and less in the long run as the more you repair more often drains the cap. (sorry for stating the obvious, just trying to make the point clear)
edit:sp?
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.01.08 17:19:00 -
[6]
One thing to add here that the shield rig drawback is stacking penalized. So with shield rigging 1 you get a 9% increase with the first, a 7.8% increase with the 2nd and a 5.1% increase with the 3rd shield rig.
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fawfawf
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Posted - 2007.01.08 17:20:00 -
[7]
well, while i do see that armor rigs are penalised more than shield rigs one must admit that armor rigs kinda have a rig to equalise that...
namely the 15% (20%)armor boost rig. this might be the single best rig out there, so yeah while penalties are higher to the shield ones this rig so makes it worth it.
15% armor rep. boost > -10% cap need for shield boosters
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Kinsei Isamu
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Posted - 2007.01.08 17:29:00 -
[8]
Originally by: fawfawf well, while i do see that armor rigs are penalised more than shield rigs one must admit that armor rigs kinda have a rig to equalise that...
namely the 15% (20%)armor boost rig. this might be the single best rig out there, so yeah while penalties are higher to the shield ones this rig so makes it worth it.
15% armor rep. boost > -10% cap need for shield boosters
Don't forget shield rigs that make passive regen better. Shield passive regen is really getting powerful!
Even if that WASN'T in, the armor rig drawback is just a bit too much.
An agility penalty might be better - however, perhaps not 10%. That's a bit too high no matter how you slice it.
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Firecrak
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Posted - 2007.01.08 17:35:00 -
[9]
I like Kinsei's ideas/discussion, it does seem a bit unfair to have such an integral part of an armor tankers fare (tackling, manuevering etc) be usurped by a rather insignificant (in this case) penalty.
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Kagura Nikon
Minmatar MASS HOMICIDE FREGE Alliance
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Posted - 2007.01.08 17:38:00 -
[10]
Strage people keep saying rigs are too expensive to use in smaller ships. My previous corps had quite afew rigs in cruisers an i have 5 rigs in BCs.
People should start trying to make them to see its not that hard.
If brute force doesn't solve your problem.. then you are not using enough!! |
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Kinsei Isamu
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Posted - 2007.01.08 17:42:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Kinsei Isamu on 08/01/2007 17:39:31 Edited by: Kinsei Isamu on 08/01/2007 17:39:08
Originally by: Kagura Nikon Strage people keep saying rigs are too expensive to use in smaller ships. My previous corps had quite afew rigs in cruisers an i have 5 rigs in BCs.
People should start trying to make them to see its not that hard.
If we take the assumption that people will put rigs in their smaller ships - then the speed issue becomes an even bigger problem.
- Shield tanked small ships will only be significantly hurt when they get attacked by a larger missile ship (so, a cruiser hit by a raven's torp, for instance)
- Armor tanked small ships will lose the speed that they absolutely depend on in order to survive!
Once again: I don't want shield rigs nerfed. This is not the intention here. I think that the armor drawback needs to be rethought. It just needs to be: - a smaller drawback amount, OR - agility (not 10%, certainly), OR - hull reduction (again, probably not 10%), OR - MASSIVE shield reduction (perhaps on the order of 50% less shield HP per rig - so that armor tankers COMPLETELY LOSE their shield buffer zone), OR - sig radius penalty like with shields
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Twin blade
Minmatar The Caldari Confederation
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Posted - 2007.01.08 17:47:00 -
[12]
Maybe armor rig's could lower Max shield HP by like 30% a rig i mean replace the shield gen's with more armor plate's as well as add a bit more mass.
!
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Fon Revedhort
Aeria Gloris Inc United Legion
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Posted - 2007.01.08 17:53:00 -
[13]
Are you saying tanking rigs are broken? They all are messed up. Just have a look at turret ones: they either give a sucky dps bonus(stacking penalized with dmg mods anyway) or a miserable boost in tracking or whatever you can choose there, and that's for additional 6-10% (well, 5 if you really want) cost in powergrid.
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Mordaunt
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.01.08 18:37:00 -
[14]
Bear in mind though that for most shield tankers (which are active) they'd probably be using cap recharge rigs anyway which would give a better all round effect.
And their penalty is, err, umm, nothing.
Oh
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.01.08 18:44:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Fon Revedhort Are you saying tanking rigs are broken? They all are messed up. Just have a look at turret ones: they either give a sucky dps bonus(stacking penalized with dmg mods anyway) or a miserable boost in tracking or whatever you can choose there, and that's for additional 6-10% (well, 5 if you really want) cost in powergrid.
The devs stated multiple times that rigs were supposed to be more of a defensive nature, so it's not exactly surprising that the weapon rigs suck compared to the other rigs.
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Kinsei Isamu
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Posted - 2007.01.08 18:50:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Mordaunt Bear in mind though that for most shield tankers (which are active) they'd probably be using cap recharge rigs anyway which would give a better all round effect.
And their penalty is, err, umm, nothing.
Oh
For MISSIONS they might be using cap recharge, yeah... that would be a waste in PVP... probably.
Looking around at various setups, it looks like if people aren't passive tanking in PVP, they're fitting extra resists on their shield tanks.
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.01.08 19:20:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 08/01/2007 19:21:39
Originally by: Blue Rider Edited by: Blue Rider on 08/01/2007 17:17:09 May or may not be the best solutions but, one thing seems pretty clear... the armor rigs are meant for distance fighters not for close-up ships. Or, at least distance fighters could potentially take the most advantage from the armor rigs.
How about: The HP bonues armor rigs lower the agility of the fitting ship by a %, meaning you'll have more armor but you better be more adept at steering your ship properly. The repair bonus armor rigs can lower the the overall capacitor size (since using the repair duration rig already causes you to use more cap sooner, there's no sense in having it have a cap recharge penalty). This would complement, what I see as a shorter fight module, in that you will be able to tank more in a short time and less in the long run as the more you repair more often drains the cap. (sorry for stating the obvious, just trying to make the point clear)
edit:sp?
Armor rigs are for distance fighters? LoL.
Long range is either in fleet battles where that armor rig is gonna do you as good as a paper helmet if you get called primary, or your sniping at gates where you wont get hit anyway. No sir, armor rigs are for close combat.
What I on the other hand find a shame is that smaller ships cant use armor or shield rigs. Speed and Sig radius is all these ships have. So whats left for small ships? The sucky weapon upgrades?
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Magnus Card
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.01.08 19:27:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Mordaunt Bear in mind though that for most shield tankers (which are active) they'd probably be using cap recharge rigs anyway which would give a better all round effect.
And their penalty is, err, umm, nothing.
Oh
Armor tankers can benefit just as much from cap recharge rigs if not more so since they tend to be heavy cap using ships anyway.
Still rockin as a ! |
schurem
Silver Snake Enterprise Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.01.08 20:10:00 -
[19]
not all weapon upgrades suck. I have on my mael a falloff enhancer, and that frackin PWNS. And it doesnt stack with anything :D However, I still think EvE needs more and better tactical warning sounds.
<<<< No Boundaries, No Fences, Fly Free Or Die Trying >>>>
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Alassra Eventide
Veldspar Industries
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Posted - 2007.01.08 21:43:00 -
[20]
Keep in mind that the rigs for shields give a % boost, not a flat number.
Throw a couple shield rigs on a BC, and an extender or two, and you've got a sig radius bigger than any BS out there.
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Kinsei Isamu
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Posted - 2007.01.08 21:59:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Alassra Eventide Keep in mind that the rigs for shields give a % boost, not a flat number.
Throw a couple shield rigs on a BC, and an extender or two, and you've got a sig radius bigger than any BS out there.
And it doesn't matter a damn... unless you're being shot with citadel torps and you aren't already target painted.
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WildAmishRose
Caldari Vale Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2007.01.09 00:52:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Kinsei Isamu
Originally by: Alassra Eventide Keep in mind that the rigs for shields give a % boost, not a flat number.
Throw a couple shield rigs on a BC, and an extender or two, and you've got a sig radius bigger than any BS out there.
And it doesn't matter a damn... unless you're being shot with citadel torps and you aren't already target painted.
You say that, until your stupid little battlecruiser gets instapwned by some torpspam. Sig radius matters. Ships with a bigger sig radius are going to be tracked better, hit more often, etc.
Do yourself a favor directly: This is a ferox, look at it's sig, 285m http://www.eve-online.com/itemdatabase/ships/battlecruisers/caldari/16227.asp
This is a bane torpedo.
http://www.eve-online.com/itemdatabase/shipequipment/ammunitioncharges/missiles/torpedoes/standardtorpedoes/2508.asp
Everyone loves bane torpedos, and you'll notice an 'explosion radius' of 400m, this means, that with no extender, you take less damage, but, when you pop on some rigs, you take 450 damage a hit. Sounds like a pretty big penalty to me.
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Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
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Posted - 2007.01.09 01:54:00 -
[23]
Also increases in sig radius are equivalent to increases in your opponents' tracking. So in cases where you actually have some transversal, the penalty does have some meaning against turrets.
Whether its balanced correctly against the armor rig penalty or not, I couldn't say. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams, writing about EVE |
Kinsei Isamu
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Posted - 2007.01.09 02:30:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Kinsei Isamu on 09/01/2007 02:44:04 Edited by: Kinsei Isamu on 09/01/2007 02:30:34
Originally by: Tsanse Kinske Also increases in sig radius are equivalent to increases in your opponents' tracking. So in cases where you actually have some transversal, the penalty does have some meaning against turrets.
At proper ranges and at proper transversals, guns aren't going to have a hard time tracking a BC/BS to a point where the penalty would INCREASE their tracking by any significant margin.
Originally by: WildAmishRose this means, that with no extender, you take less damage
Mmmhmmm!
Once again, however, sig radius penalty IS NO PENALTY AT ALL for large ships. Raven, Maelstrom, Rokh, Scorpion. No penalty.
Conversely, the speed penalty is a VERY SEVERE penalty to ALL ships that use those rigs. See where the power curve gets thrown off?
Simply because a BC that uses a shield rig might take a BIT more damage depending on its setup (ie. whether it uses extenders or not) - does NOT mean that these penalties are balanced.
They are NOT balanced for large ships: - The armor rigs COMPLETELY screw small ships (wheras if a small ship with the sigradius of a small moon goes FAST enough it can still avoid missile fire - this is how a well geared nanophoon works - but things have to be moving ***VERY*** fast - a big part of why inties get hit for such low damage against missiles - it ISN'T JUST THEIR SIG RADIUS! It is their SPEED!). - Large armored ships become pitiful with 27%-15% reduced speed.
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Kinsei Isamu
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Posted - 2007.01.09 02:34:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Kinsei Isamu on 09/01/2007 02:30:21 double post
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Kldraina
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Posted - 2007.01.09 02:47:00 -
[26]
I like the idea of having the armor rigs increase mass rather than reduce speed as it fits the current penalties for fitting armor plates.
I believe that shield rigs are more powerful overall than armor rigs, and that it is probably a good thing. Why? Because not enough people shield tank. |
Kinsei Isamu
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Posted - 2007.01.09 02:50:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Kinsei Isamu on 09/01/2007 02:52:04 Edited by: Kinsei Isamu on 09/01/2007 02:47:39
Originally by: Kldraina I believe that shield rigs are more powerful overall than armor rigs, and that it is probably a good thing. Why? Because not enough people shield tank.
So... CREATING an imbalance is the solution to this?
As opposed to... say... adding more ships to other races that shield tank?
Anyway, while Tux certainly wants more shield tanks in PVP, I highly doubt he CREATED this imbalance intentionally. It is likely an oversight, CCP was in a hurry, so all drawbacks got a blanket 10% drawback penalty.
Tux also admitted to pre-nerfing rigs in general. Most likely, armor rigs just got a bit more "pre-nerfed".
This isn't supposed to cause a flame war or something stupid - just to point out that this is something that should be looked at as soon as possible.
I've listed several suggestions of "fixes" to the imbalance: considering new drawback amounts on a case-by-case basis is one of them.
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Audri Fisher
Caldari The Keep THE R0CK
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Posted - 2007.01.09 03:06:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Kinsei Isamu Edited by: Kinsei Isamu on 09/01/2007 02:44:04 Edited by: Kinsei Isamu on 09/01/2007 02:30:34
Originally by: Tsanse Kinske Also increases in sig radius are equivalent to increases in your opponents' tracking. So in cases where you actually have some transversal, the penalty does have some meaning against turrets.
At proper ranges and at proper transversals, guns aren't going to have a hard time tracking a BC/BS to a point where the penalty would INCREASE their tracking by any significant margin.
Originally by: WildAmishRose this means, that with no extender, you take less damage
Mmmhmmm!
Once again, however, sig radius penalty IS NO PENALTY AT ALL for large ships. Raven, Maelstrom, Rokh, Scorpion. No penalty.
Conversely, the speed penalty is a VERY SEVERE penalty to ALL ships that use those rigs. See where the power curve gets thrown off?
Simply because a BC that uses a shield rig might take a BIT more damage depending on its setup (ie. whether it uses extenders or not) - does NOT mean that these penalties are balanced.
They are NOT balanced for large ships: - The armor rigs COMPLETELY screw small ships (wheras if a small ship with the sigradius of a small moon goes FAST enough it can still avoid missile fire - this is how a well geared nanophoon works - but things have to be moving ***VERY*** fast - a big part of why inties get hit for such low damage against missiles - it ISN'T JUST THEIR SIG RADIUS! It is their SPEED!). - Large armored ships become pitiful with 27%-15% reduced speed.
so, at proper ranges and transversal sig radious isn't a concerne for turret users. That's great if everything goes perfectly. It makes a big difference when things are not going all your way.
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Jet Collins
Dynamic Endeavors
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Posted - 2007.01.09 03:39:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Jet Collins on 09/01/2007 03:36:24 Persoanlly I think both shield and armor rigs suck for Minmatar ships.
Our streghts are Speed and our small sigs.
But wait Minmatar arn't tankers... well ok than never mind. Post locked.(well that was before the cyclone and new BS, even though still not good tankers just better)
Cal= shield tankers some of the largest sigs. Amarr= armor tankers. They have some very fast ships, and are perty versital in there ranges since they can cahnge crystls in a second.
Persoanly I think Armor rigs penalty could go with out the speed nerf and do some thing else maybe Cap nerf or a PG nerf. Agility as some have said could really screw you over I really don't think you want that I think the speed nerf is better than an agility nerf.
But this is comeing from a minmatar. As I see it there Rigs are not ment for us. Shield rigs are ment for Cal who already have large sig and armor rigs for Amarr which don;t really need speed because they can change crystals quickly to get the range need and not speed to get the range needed. Armor rigs would be benifical for Gal as well however they need speed to get in range. So you are better off with Drone rigs/hybri/ or electonic supirority with your disruptors.
My 2 cents
Where is my Damn RIG that lowers sig radius!!!!
Dynamic Endeavors is now Recuiting.!!
Contact me in game for deatails about the corp. Mostly a PvE corp, with Jump clones avaiale in Empire and 0.0. |
Kinsei Isamu
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Posted - 2007.01.09 14:47:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Kinsei Isamu on 09/01/2007 14:48:13 All of this is well and good - but it doesn't change the fact that a 10% speed penalty is just way too much. When have you had trouble tracking a BS with short range guns - assuming it wasn't a nano-<domi/typhoon/...>?
Some here maintain that the sigradius IS a penalty. However, they do NOT argue that the penalties are balanced. 10% speed is FAR more severe than 10% sig radius. Especially for large ships.
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Kerdrak
Amarr 3B Legio IX O X I D E
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Posted - 2007.01.09 20:11:00 -
[31]
Anyone realized about how easy is making shield rigs?
Caldari Online strikes again with caldarigs ________________________________________ First atheist amarr on EVE
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Blue Rider
Coonass Cajun an dem Crawdad Capsewl Combatuns Soldiers of the Forgotten Abyss
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Posted - 2007.01.09 20:40:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 08/01/2007 19:21:39
Originally by: Blue Rider Edited by: Blue Rider on 08/01/2007 17:17:09 May or may not be the best solutions but, one thing seems pretty clear... the armor rigs are meant for distance fighters not for close-up ships. Or, at least distance fighters could potentially take the most advantage from the armor rigs.
How about: The HP bonues armor rigs lower the agility of the fitting ship by a %, meaning you'll have more armor but you better be more adept at steering your ship properly. The repair bonus armor rigs can lower the the overall capacitor size (since using the repair duration rig already causes you to use more cap sooner, there's no sense in having it have a cap recharge penalty). This would complement, what I see as a shorter fight module, in that you will be able to tank more in a short time and less in the long run as the more you repair more often drains the cap. (sorry for stating the obvious, just trying to make the point clear)
edit:sp?
Armor rigs are for distance fighters? LoL.
Long range is either in fleet battles where that armor rig is gonna do you as good as a paper helmet if you get called primary, or your sniping at gates where you wont get hit anyway. No sir, armor rigs are for close combat.
What I on the other hand find a shame is that smaller ships cant use armor or shield rigs. Speed and Sig radius is all these ships have. So whats left for small ships? The sucky weapon upgrades?
That's exactly my point. If they take from speed, then the MWD'n ships won't be able to use them thus, leaving them only to be used by distance fighters who don't care about speed. Hence, the reason I was posting a suggestion that would hopefully benefit it for the close range MWD'n fighters. (Brutix, Mega, etc.)
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Xtro 2
Caldari Pre-nerfed Tactics
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Posted - 2007.01.09 20:47:00 -
[33]
rigs are like implants, their not meant to be fitted as standard, they are there if you need them and they suit your needs, if they dont, use something else or none at all.
Should'nt change the mods because they dotn suit "your" ideal application.
I use the armour rigs and they serve me well, speedloss is no great pain for what i use them for, the same can be said of sig radius, it will be no big deal for some, and other it will be.
fine as they are.
Xtro 2 - Tactically Insane Tradesman. Insanity, or madness, is a semi-permanent, severe mental disorder. |
Xori Ruscuv
Vendetta Underground Rule of Three
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Posted - 2007.01.09 20:50:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 09/01/2007 20:55:33
Originally by: Xtro 2 rigs are like implants, their not meant to be fitted as standard, they are there if you need them and they suit your needs, if they dont, use something else or none at all.
Should'nt change the mods because they dotn suit "your" ideal application.
I use the armour rigs and they serve me well, speedloss is no great pain for what i use them for, the same can be said of sig radius, it will be no big deal for some, and other it will be.
fine as they are.
Hahahaha...
The point the OP has made (and I've made the same point before), is that there IS an imbalance. That imbalance needs to be corrected - because in the not-so-distant future, rigs WILL be more and more common, just like implants are becoming more and more common in high end PVP. The should be balanced. Armor vs and shield tanking should be balanced, albeit different.
As rigs become more common, we will find that these drawbacks are in fact not balanced. I do believe rigs will become far more common, too. They aren't like implants. They can be manufactured. Eventually they will become a mainstay in expensive-ship PVP. In that case, shield tankers aren't penalized, and armor tankers are over-penalized.
It's great playing Caldari-online, isn't it?
This IS my main! I just did a portrait swap... |
Black Scorpio
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Posted - 2007.01.09 21:00:00 -
[35]
Well constructively speaking,
Armor rigs: 1.Caldari ships are the slowest in game, so if you take 10% off the speed of any other race BS, and any other ship for that matter you will reach Caldari ship speeds.
2. For a BS using armor rigs, speed isn't all that important, unless you are a blastertron charging for another ship from afarr, and even then you have your MWD to aid.
3. Speed can be quickly gained back with 1 nano module.
Shield rigs: 1. The only thing they will hurt a BS is if T2 Rage torps are used against that BS. This will hurt very much, trust me...
2. On any smaller ship using 2 or 3 of these, it is as if shooting at a higher class ship, therefore it might be very deadly, imagine doing full/close to full damage on a frig/cruiser with heavy/cruise misiles... very unpleasant.
3. This cannot be compensated against, as to my knowledge there is no module to lower your sig, only implants... (maybe i am something here and can stand corrected :)
Both: 1. I believe both rigs are more beneficial then their negative effects, and should be used if the ships is planned to spec with some of these.
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Xori Ruscuv
Vendetta Underground Rule of Three
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Posted - 2007.01.09 21:36:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 09/01/2007 21:45:03
Originally by: Black Scorpio
Armor rigs: 1.Caldari ships are the slowest in game, so if you take 10% off the speed of any other race BS, and any other ship for that matter you will reach Caldari ship speeds.
With the rigging skill at level 5, the speed is reduced by 15% with 3 rigs. That makes even a Tempest as slow as a Raven.
Quote: 2. For a BS using armor rigs, speed isn't all that important, unless you are a blastertron charging for another ship from afarr, and even then you have your MWD to aid.
You don't have a clue what you're talking about. Have you ever flown a Minmatar ship? Not even a Tempest... have you even flown a Stabber, or a Rupture? Getting close isn't the only need for speed. EDIT: OK, mentioning the Stabber was silly, maybe... because it isn't a tanker at all, let alone an "armor tanker". Still, my point is that saying that speed isn't important for armor tanked battleships - your only exception being the blasterthron, and saying that it is only important to get CLOSE to the enemy - is an ill-conceived remark that displays a terrible lack of understanding of how various ship races are used in combat.
Quote: 3. Speed can be quickly gained back with 1 nano module.
WTF? OK, let's spend 90mil on 3 armor tanking rigs so that I can REPLACE ONE OF MY TANKING MODS WITH A NANOFIBER. Meanwhile the Raven, Maelstrom (or whatever) get to have uber tanks WITHOUT sacrificing a slot.
The armor rigs need a drawback, just like most other rigs. It is obvious that speed is a far more severe penalty than sig radius, especially for large ships - which still need their speed. AND NO, the bloody Megathron/Hyperion aren't the only ships that need speed just to get close, FFS.
The drawbacks should be balanced. Honestly I think that decreasing the speed penalty a bit would solve the problem.
If you can't believe that, try flying Minmatar.
EDIT: I predict these responses:
"Well, then don't fit 3 armor tanking mods." Why shouldn't we be able to? Shield tankers can. Oh, what are you saying, that shields SHOULD be able to tank so much better than armor?
"If the Tempest has 3 armor mods AND speed, then it will have a omgwtfubertank!" Hardly. The tempest's tank is a bare minimum as it is. Stick 3 tank mods on a Hyperion, and then come back and whine about how the Tempest has an ubertank If rigs were balanced, this wouldn't even be a concern.
It's great playing Caldari-online, isn't it?
This IS my main! I just did a portrait swap... |
Black Scorpio
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Posted - 2007.01.09 22:01:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Xori Ruscuv Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 09/01/2007 21:50:45
Originally by: Black Scorpio
Armor rigs: 1.Caldari ships are the slowest in game, so if you take 10% off the speed of any other race BS, and any other ship for that matter you will reach Caldari ship speeds.
With the rigging skill at level 5, the speed is reduced by 15% with 3 rigs. That makes even a Tempest as slow as a Raven.
Quote: 2. For a BS using armor rigs, speed isn't all that important, unless you are a blastertron charging for another ship from afarr, and even then you have your MWD to aid.
You don't have a clue what you're talking about. Have you ever flown a Minmatar ship? Not even a Tempest... have you even flown a Stabber, or a Rupture? Getting close isn't the only need for speed. EDIT: OK, mentioning the Stabber was silly, maybe... because it isn't a tanker at all, let alone an "armor tanker". Still, my point is that saying that speed isn't important for armor tanked battleships - your only exception being the blasterthron, and saying that it is only important to get CLOSE to the enemy - is an ill-conceived remark that displays a terrible lack of understanding of how various ship races are used in combat.
Quote: 3. Speed can be quickly gained back with 1 nano module.
WTF? OK, let's spend 90mil on 3 armor tanking rigs so that I can REPLACE ONE OF MY TANKING MODS WITH A NANOFIBER. Meanwhile the Raven, Maelstrom (or whatever) get to have uber tanks WITHOUT sacrificing a slot.
The armor rigs need a drawback, just like most other rigs. It is obvious that speed is a far more severe penalty than sig radius, especially for large ships - which still need their speed. AND NO, the bloody Megathron/Hyperion aren't the only ships that need speed just to get close, FFS.
The drawbacks should be balanced. Honestly I think that decreasing the speed penalty a bit would solve the problem.
If you can't believe that, try flying Minmatar.
EDIT: I predict these responses:
"Well, then don't fit 3 armor tanking mods." Why shouldn't we be able to? Shield tankers can. Oh, what are you saying, that shields SHOULD be able to tank so much better than armor?
"If the Tempest has 3 armor mods AND speed, then it will have a omgwtfubertank!" Hardly. The tempest's tank is a bare minimum as it is. Stick 3 tank mods on a Hyperion, and then come back and whine about how the Tempest has an ubertank If rigs were balanced, this wouldn't even be a concern.
"Armor rigs on a Tempest??? n00b" Depends on what you're using it for. Falloff rigs on an AC tempest might be fun, but we all know that there are already problems with staying at range with the current state of warp disruptors. At some point, one will be compelled to improve the tank on such a ship, in the interest of general setups.
Hello friend, I can see how someone with a signature like yours can reply in such a way.
I am not rebutting the problems in other races that use armor tanking. It is supposed to be that way. I however have listed the scenarious where shield rigs for Caldari ships (assuming they will mostly use them) will be at a great disadvantage, namely taking full damage or close to full from higher class misiles/ammo.
By the way, since you are using Minmatar as an example, may I remind you that about half of their ships are using/better suitted for shield tanking? Hence the only problem there is your anti-Caldari outlook on the game, which is not constructive.
Using Minmatar ships as you said when fitting armor rigs will make their speed same as caldari.. well then, compared to Caldari, what is the negative side for minmatar ships for using armor rigs? none...
As you see, the limited and rather "picked to your liking" scenarios do not cover all cases in game.
I understand how you can become anti-caldari, but do not let your personal views influence your outlook on the game.
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Xori Ruscuv
Vendetta Underground Rule of Three
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Posted - 2007.01.09 22:06:00 -
[38]
Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 09/01/2007 22:07:42
Originally by: Black Scorpio Hello friend, I can see how someone with a signature like yours can reply in such a way.
I am not rebutting the problems in other races that use armor tanking. It is supposed to be that way.
Yay, my sig has another fan.
I deleted my post before you replied, so I can't be arsed to reply any futher.
Quote: I understand how you can become anti-caldari, but do not let your personal views influence your outlook on the game.
Why the **** not?
Quote: As you see, the limited and rather "picked to your liking" scenarios do not cover all cases in game.
Yeah, of course they don't cover all the cases in the game. Guess why? Because I'm talking about bloody armor tanked ships using rigs, and the penalty being too steep. I'm not going to address people who use power grid + 2x falloff rigs on their Tempest, because it isn't what I'm talking about. Why the hell should I have to write a bloody encyclopedia of Eve when I'm talking about JUST the simple idea that 10% speed penalty is too ******* much?
It's great playing Caldari-online, isn't it?
This IS my main! I just did a portrait swap... |
Black Scorpio
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Posted - 2007.01.09 22:09:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Xori Ruscuv Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 09/01/2007 22:04:37
Originally by: Black Scorpio Hello friend, I can see how someone with a signature like yours can reply in such a way.
I am not rebutting the problems in other races that use armor tanking. It is supposed to be that way.
Yay, my sig has another fan.
I deleted my post before you replied, so I can't be arsed to reply any futher.
Hey Xori, you have mastered the skill at hearing/quoting just what you want to hear.. it may play you a joke sometimes.. hope you are not like that in RL :)
Cheers :)
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Xori Ruscuv
Vendetta Underground Rule of Three
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Posted - 2007.01.09 22:12:00 -
[40]
Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 09/01/2007 22:17:28
Originally by: Black Scorpio Hey Xori, you have mastered the skill at hearing/quoting just what you want to hear.. it may play you a joke sometimes.. hope you are not like that in RL :)
Yeah... I'm sure it'll play me a joke.
You haven't exactly made a reasonable or convincing argument yourself, buddy! You know, aside from "that how it is supposed to be". Great argument!
I'll listen to your cricitism of my criticisms when you display some more reasoning behind your talk.
Take this statement of yours, for example:
Quote: Using Minmatar ships as you said when fitting armor rigs will make their speed same as caldari.. well then, compared to Caldari, what is the negative side for minmatar ships for using armor rigs? none...
This shows absolutely NO thought. What, we're just comparing Minmatar and Caldari now? What about the two other races in the game that use guns? What about the fact that Minmatar RELY on their speed to help deal with them?
That quite aside from the fact that gunships need their speed to CATCH UP to their enemy, and stay at certain ranges. If a ship: - can't tank - can't catch up Then it has to run away, IF IT CAN. What bloody good is that?
And another example:
Quote: By the way, since you are using Minmatar as an example, may I remind you that about half of their ships are using/better suitted for shield tanking? Hence the only problem there is your anti-Caldari outlook on the game, which is not constructive.
This has nothing to do with my bloody hardon for *****ing about Caldari. This has to do with SHIELD TANKING vs. ARMOR TANKING. Yeah, the Maelstrom can shield tank. So can the Cyclone and Sleipnir. So what? That doesn't have ANY effect on the argument about whether or not a 10% speed drawback on armor tank rigs is or is not too much.
But obviously my stupid sig has so blinded you with rage that you can't think past it. That's cute.
It's great playing Caldari-online, isn't it?
This IS my main! I just did a portrait swap... |
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Xori Ruscuv
Vendetta Underground Rule of Three
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Posted - 2007.01.09 22:27:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 09/01/2007 22:26:23 Side note: I would be inclined to mention the PG rig + 2x falloff rigs as a potent solution... but I think tank is king now, so time will tell whether that combo will actually cut it.
I personally think the game is heading in such a direction that we are going to be seeing at least half-assed attempts at ubertanks on every battleship out there that isn't loaded up with sniping fittings.
A tanked TYPHOON may be a far better example in this case.
It's great playing Caldari-online, isn't it?
This IS my main! I just did a portrait swap... |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial
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Posted - 2007.01.09 23:21:00 -
[42]
O.K. so lets examine these rigs.
Shield Rigs
10% Sig Radius
Effects
10% easier to hit with turrets
About 10% more damage from missiles with larger sig radius as the target.
---------
Armor rigs
10% Velocity Penalty
Effects
11.1% easier to hit with turrets
Possible inability to run.
------------------------------------
Mitigating factors.
1. Shield tanked ships typically have larger sig raiduses anyway, reducing the number of missiles that do more damage against them.
That is the big issue.
Not only is the velocity penalty larger for the primary[getting hit by turrets] penalty, but the secondary penalty from shield tankers is reduced due shield tanking ships already having large signature radiuses.
Similar, the velocity penalty[inability to dictate range/letting your opponent dictate range, possible inability to run] is not directly comparble to the benefit. While a shield rig increases damage taken, it also grants the tanking benefit. These are directly comparble benefits meaning that you can easily make the decision whether or not its worth it.
As well, since they are directly comparble, there is a [for the most part] 1 to 1 relationship between the tradeoffs such that you can design the system to always come ahead in tanking ability. I.E. the rigs will protect you when you can be protected, and will have no effect on those times when you are going to explode anyway.
This is not so with armor rigs, which for ships that must dictate range leads to not only damage increases from someone being able to dictate range better[they get to fight at their prefered range], but also decreases your damage against the target.
The first penalty is nearly directly comparble[tanking bonus vs taking increased damage], but since ships differ, the amount of falloff/optimal optimization that can be done is an unknown, making the damage increase compared to the tanking benefit impossible to compare.
As well there is the damage penalty for turreted ships due to said same inability to manuver which is not directly comparable.
And third and final is that a lower speed, may, in some situations, result in your ship not being able to run from a situation that would utterly destroy them which they would have been able to run from before hand.
Doing a direct comparison of the penalties it is pretty obvious as to why the armor rigs are penalized much harsher than shield rigs. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.01.10 00:06:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Aramendel on 10/01/2007 00:03:28 One core problem IMO is that the armor rigs effeciently also reduce the dps potential for all turret ships exept BSs with longrange guns.
Caldari ships are from begin slower than other ships, but they also have a longer range. With armor rigs armortankers will be as slow/slower than caldari ships *and* have less range. A compareable penality would be that the shield rigs also give -10% missile flight time in addition to the sig penality.
Not that I suggest that, just to put things into perspective.
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Tasty Burger
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Posted - 2007.01.10 00:12:00 -
[44]
The shield rigs penalty doesn't hurt anyone, the armor one is a huge drawback. - It's great being Minmatar, ain't it? |
dalman
Finite Horizon
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Posted - 2007.01.10 00:12:00 -
[45]
Rigs overall is just completly unbalanced. CCP must sit down and look at each and every rig in the game and adjust both the stats on them and what penalties they get.
Less rolling the dice and more thinking in the balancing of the game plz.
Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me |
Tousaka Langley
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Posted - 2007.01.10 01:41:00 -
[46]
Shield tanking takes medium slots. No matter how you slice it, that is a draw back. As has also been said before, there are cap rechargers that help out any active tank. As has not been said, you can lower the penalty to be only 5% velocity and I am pretty sure it is stacking nerfed (I may be wrong.)
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The Armin
Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.01.10 01:59:00 -
[47]
Rigs are kinda weird.. I haven't even bothered training the skills.. Can't afford losing an extra 200m when I lose a battleship ;p
That this is Caldari online should surprise no-one, the ecm rigs are kinda omg as well =)=)
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Kinsei Isamu
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Posted - 2007.01.10 02:18:00 -
[48]
Edited by: Kinsei Isamu on 10/01/2007 02:15:19
Originally by: Tousaka Langley Shield tanking takes medium slots. No matter how you slice it, that is a draw back.
Which has absolutely nothing to do with 27%-15% penalty on speed being far too strong.
Quote: As has not been said, you can lower the penalty to be only 5% velocity and I am pretty sure it is stacking nerfed (I may be wrong.)
It has been several times. Read first, post second.
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Kinsei Isamu
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Posted - 2007.01.10 02:19:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Kinsei Isamu on 10/01/2007 02:17:55
Originally by: dalman Rigs overall is just completly unbalanced. CCP must sit down and look at each and every rig in the game and adjust both the stats on them and what penalties they get.
Less rolling the dice and more thinking in the balancing of the game plz.
Yes.
Bingo.
Precisely.
Brilliant.
Lets have more intelligent thoughts like this one.
(not sarcastic)
And this one:
Originally by: Goumindong O.K. so lets examine these rigs. <etc>
Very good.
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Tousaka Langley
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Posted - 2007.01.10 02:41:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Tousaka Langley on 10/01/2007 02:38:38
Originally by: Kinsei Isamu Edited by: Kinsei Isamu on 10/01/2007 02:15:19
Originally by: Tousaka Langley Shield tanking takes medium slots. No matter how you slice it, that is a draw back.
Which has absolutely nothing to do with 27%-15% penalty on speed being far too strong.
Quote: As has not been said, you can lower the penalty to be only 5% velocity and I am pretty sure it is stacking nerfed (I may be wrong.)
It has been several times. Read first, post second.
Point out where training the skill to reduce it past 10% has been mentioned? Every post has been quoting the 10% mark, which isn't even accurate since you should be down to 9% instantly.
Secondly, if you look at Rigs in perfect isolation, yes, Passive Shield tanking got the best deal out of it then active shield tanking. However, the rigs are not an isolated issue. Maybe CCP is trying to buff shield tanking to be on par with armor tanking for PVP purposes?
What you want me to tell you is "ZOMG ARMOR TANKING NEEDS TO BE BUFFED OR I WILL QUIT THE GAME" or some other reactionary nonsense. I refuse.
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Kinsei Isamu
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Posted - 2007.01.10 03:05:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Tousaka Langley Point out where training the skill to reduce it past 10% has been mentioned? Every post has been quoting the 10% mark, which isn't even accurate since you should be down to 9% instantly.
What the hell?
Read the OP. I continually said 27%-15%. 27 = 9*3 15 = 5*3
Quote: Secondly, if you look at Rigs in perfect isolation, yes, Passive Shield tanking got the best deal out of it then active shield tanking. However, the rigs are not an isolated issue. Maybe CCP is trying to buff shield tanking to be on par with armor tanking for PVP purposes?
Probably not. In practice, shield tanking has easily overtaken armor tanking. In many apects, shield tanking was already superior.
(IN REALITY. Only on the forums do people compare shield and armor tanks in strict 1v1 scenarios )
Quote: What you want me to tell you is "ZOMG ARMOR TANKING NEEDS TO BE BUFFED OR I WILL QUIT THE GAME" or some other reactionary nonsense. I refuse.
GO GET 'EM, SOLDIER!
I'm a shield tanker anyway... why would I quit? Oh - I think I mentioned that in the OP.
As I said, READ FIRST, POST SECOND.
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Splitter Macdung
Minmatar Vale Heavy Industries SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.01.10 03:57:00 -
[52]
The shield rig penalty can be bothersome to smaller ship classes, but yeah, doesnt really noodle with battleships too much. The armor rig drawbacks are crippling to smaller ships and larger ships about equally. The conversion of speed penalty to mass penalty is probably the best idea I've seen so far. __________________________________ Vale Heavy Industries "We produce many fine products!(Out of yours if neccessary.)" |
Kinsei Isamu
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Posted - 2007.01.10 04:14:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Splitter Macdung The shield rig penalty can be bothersome to smaller ship classes, but yeah, doesnt really noodle with battleships too much. The armor rig drawbacks are crippling to smaller ships and larger ships about equally. The conversion of speed penalty to mass penalty is probably the best idea I've seen so far.
That has been my precise point!
The armor penalty hurts: - more classes of ships - and in a worse way in general
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Kuolematon
Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.01.10 07:15:00 -
[54]
I haven't even bothered with rigs as they are overpriced and being pure amarr person, I got shafted with rigs anyway .
My friend flies Drake and he can tank multiple BS's, BC's for minutes and I get wtfpwned against BS,BC and cruiser in a SECONDS. Go go Amarr Armor tanking gadgets!
Shield tanking is becaming what it was back in 2003 when there was shield tanked Apocs. Oh dear, perhaps biting the bullet and learning shield skills is the only way out. Playing Caldari-Online as a Amarr specced is PURE Hardcore (aka. stupid).
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial
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Posted - 2007.01.10 08:37:00 -
[55]
Edited by: Goumindong on 10/01/2007 08:38:04
Originally by: Kinsei Isamu
Originally by: Tousaka Langley Point out where training the skill to reduce it past 10% has been mentioned? Every post has been quoting the 10% mark, which isn't even accurate since you should be down to 9% instantly.
What the hell?
Read the OP. I continually said 27%-15%. 27 = 9*3 15 = 5*3
Actualy the final numbers are
14.2 and 24.6%
And for shield rigs
15.7% and 29.5%
However using these numbers and assuming that they are constitute a larger penalty for shields is misleading. This is because of the inverse relationship between speed and tracking, as well as the linear progression from the previous spot. A 10% penalty to speed is the same as if your guns tracked 11.1% better. A 25.6% penalty to speed is the same as if your guns tracking 32.7% better[about 2.4% worse(I.E. easier to hit) than the 29.5% penalty from sig radius].
Basically, the penalties are applied each time as if the current before fitting number was the base. This means that each time you fit the rig you get a 10% increase over the previous in sig radius. Still this penalty is smaller than the velocity penalty despite the seeming diminishing returns on a multiplied reduction[as a .9% reduction is still a 11.1% penalty to getting hit due to standard inverse relationships] ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
kill0rbunny
Caldari Chimera Intelligence Agency
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Posted - 2007.01.10 08:46:00 -
[56]
Edited by: kill0rbunny on 10/01/2007 08:43:15
Originally by: Kuolematon I haven't even bothered with rigs as they are overpriced and being pure amarr person, I got shafted with rigs anyway .
My friend flies Drake and he can tank multiple BS's, BC's for minutes and I get wtfpwned against BS,BC and cruiser in a SECONDS. Go go Amarr Armor tanking gadgets!
Shield tanking is becaming what it was back in 2003 when there was shield tanked Apocs. Oh dear, perhaps biting the bullet and learning shield skills is the only way out.
Maybe you should better get your armor skills up, because I know plenty of pilots, me included that tank pretty well on armor. Zomg, i suck at armor tanking, nerf shield tanking quickly!!!111oneeleven
I don't think those rigs need to be changed, I would prefer giving the rigging skills a boost so the penalty would be near zero at Level 5.
EVE-+NLINE Supporter of T+TALHELLDEATH |
Kuolematon
Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.01.10 08:52:00 -
[57]
Originally by: kill0rbunny Maybe you should better get your armor skills up, because I know plenty of pilots, me included that tank pretty well on armor. Zomg, i suck at armor tanking, nerf shield tanking quickly!!!111oneeleven.
ORLY? 2x faction med reppers, super faction omnitank .. all related skills lvl5 (Even command ships lvl5 but that dosen't matter). If you know way to do even better tank, please let me know where to obtain those items AND skills. Playing Caldari-Online as a Amarr specced is PURE Hardcore (aka. stupid).
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Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.01.10 10:15:00 -
[58]
Edited by: Aramendel on 10/01/2007 10:11:31
Originally by: Goumindong Actualy the final numbers are
14.2 and 24.6%
And for shield rigs
15.7% and 29.5%
Little correction:
11.7% & 20.4% for armor rigs and 12.7% & 23.6% for shield rigs actually because their drawbacks are stacking penalized.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial
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Posted - 2007.01.10 10:59:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Aramendel Edited by: Aramendel on 10/01/2007 10:11:31
Originally by: Goumindong Actualy the final numbers are
14.2 and 24.6%
And for shield rigs
15.7% and 29.5%
Little correction:
11.7% & 20.4% for armor rigs and 12.7% & 23.6% for shield rigs actually because their drawbacks are stacking penalized.
Are you sure? Because if they are, then the shield penalty is even smaller[due to the number of items that boost sig radius typically fitted on a shield tanking ship] ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew" |
Aramendel
Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.01.10 14:27:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Goumindong Are you sure? Because if they are, then the shield penalty is even smaller[due to the number of items that boost sig radius typically fitted on a shield tanking ship]
100%
My drake on TQ has with 3 purger rigs, shield rigging lvl 1 and 3 LSE a sig of 444. (285 + 3 * 25) * 1.09 * (1+ 0.09*0.87) * (1 + 0.09*0.57) -> 444.8
Tested it with armor rigs on sisi this morning, their -speed draw has the standard stacking penalities as well.
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