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Is Eve collapsing under its own weight?

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sigheve	Posted - 2007.01.10 09:31:00 - [1] Yes this is an alt post, but only because I have no active accounts and I still read the forums because I care about the game but I find it semi-boring atm. Hardware I have played the game a long time, and have friends who have played since the time when having a cruiser was a big deal. Problems, imbalances, and bugs have came and went. The one problem that has not left us, and is getting worse by the day is lag. A while ago, Tranq got its first major hardware upgrade. At the time, that was supposed to make everything peachy. Instead, thousands more players joined. Now, that is a good thing game wise, bad performance wise. Now it feels like CCP is making hardware upgrades just to make the gameplay semi acceptable. I have always wondered if the fundamental way the game was designed (mostly how the hardware was utilized at the code level) was practical. It was fine when there were 5000 players, not so much with 25,000. It seems more practical to use all the cpu's as a pool instead of assigning solar systems to seperate nodes. It is too finite and is why there are node crashes when people insist on blobbing up. (Imagine every person in a region of WoW leaving their servers to play on one single server with little or no warning. This is an extreme example, but the same idea. And no, I do not play that boring game either.) I don't see Eve losing players (except maybe some vets who favored the good ol days). I see its population growing even more. How impossible would it be to rewrite the server at such a fundamental level? Does anyone else see what I am getting at or am I am completely lost on how the current system works?
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2007.01.10 09:40:00 - [2] I think its just the load balancing that needs some work. You can have perfect response times at most places in the universe, but then you have some systems where you cant play at all. There are plenty of resources in the cluster, its just that it might need to be load balanced a bit differently. And as for rewriting the server... I think they are adding/rewriting stuff to optimize it all the time. Rewriting from the ground from scratch is probably hardly even possible without introducing tons of bugs and make Eve go into alpha stage again. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Allakhazam
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.01.10 09:42:00 - [3] I'd say that lag is no worse now than it was in late 2003. Dulce et decorum est, pro imperator mori It's great being Amarr, ain't it?
Simon Illian Caldari Section XIII Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.01.10 09:45:00 - [4] before revelation, 300 in local brign lag (d7-), after 450 bring lag (i-ng), but 300 in I-ng wihtout lag. i think we got a "critical" number who always increase. The problem (for the dev) is that the population increase same rate. Before a 20 vs 20 whas laggy, ppl complaign. Patch 40vs40 : omg we got lag !!(and incidientaly 20vs20 don't have lag at this time) patch 10vs10 : omg we got lag !!! rsie & repeat :p ____________________________________________ For all you'r Map & Data madness : http://eve.galop-spatial.com
Sorela Gallente	Posted - 2007.01.10 09:49:00 - [5] From a hardware/server software standpoint EvE is poorly designed. There is little doubt of the fact that they will always have to have more hardware and have to cut more corners than a better setup would have to do. Even saying that though it seems like their platform is extendable enough that they can just keep throwing a bit more money at it and have it work. I suspect the current problems are that EvE has finally reached enough customers that they are starting to finally see the kind of odd quirks 30k concurrent players can cause like many MMO's find out on opening day. Their first "big" update to that kind of user base is probably throwing some new hooks at them that they need to learn to anticipate. The one ammusing thing will be when they finally have to hire someone who knows that Microsoft crapware just won't cut it for what they are doing.
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2007.01.10 09:53:00 - [6] I must be playing a different game because throughout the last year I've had few problems with genuine server lag - sure my client sometimes gets a bit choppy (I don't understand why the sound effects have such a huge impact ) but nothing that can be attributed to the server creakingà ---------- Video - 'War-Machine'
Arimus Darkhart Caldari Jewel Enterprises	Posted - 2007.01.10 09:59:00 - [7] Out of interest and boredom I was tracking via ethereal the network traffic from/to eve while I was having a problem with lag and also monitoring the state of the eve client process. The process was blocking a number of times on disk io rather than the network. Looking at my network traffic I couldn't see any obvious server-side lag...
Joshua Foiritain Gallente Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.01.10 10:03:00 - [8] Apart from Blob node crashes i rarely have any lag problems with eve. They really do need to figure out a way to add dynamic node load balancing though. ----- [Coreli Corporation Mainframe]
Chillshock	Posted - 2007.01.10 10:09:00 - [9] In what way does rewriting code get more difficult with the amount of people using it? It's still the same amount of code only with more data telling you what you need to do. :D I am not playing eve for that long, but so far I see a lot of very very cool improvements made and I am looking forward to it's future.
Slimo	Posted - 2007.01.10 10:26:00 - [10] It's funny how all the whingers think they can do a better job. As far as I can tell lag is much better than that of other mmo's. From what I hear about WoW's performance Eve is 10 times better! If I could be bothered I'd post a whinge about all the whingers! But I've got better things to do.....like enjoy the best game there is! Fly Safe Slimo SLIMS is currently recruiting!
Joshua Foiritain Gallente Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.01.10 10:37:00 - [11] Originally by: Chillshock In what way does rewriting code get more difficult with the amount of people using it? It's still the same amount of code only with more data telling you what you need to do. :D More people = more stress on the code, if its not coded effeciently enough then problems arise. Ineffecient coding doesnt always matter if the amount of users is low as it doesnt stack to become notoicable. So yeah, writing code for programs with a huge amount of users is harder ----- [Coreli Corporation Mainframe]
wierchas noobhunter Caldari Kemono.	Posted - 2007.01.10 10:38:00 - [12] tbh talking about lag i dont remmber when i dont have lag fighting even in 5x5 fights Join 'Turby' channel ingame. Bring pie
Naran Darkmood Gallente	Posted - 2007.01.10 10:47:00 - [13] I used to play Guild Wars for some time after release. I re-installed it lately again and quit immidiately. Even mission running in Saila is better than that. These posts come up regularly since beta, first it was with 3k concurrent users, then 5k, 7.5k, 10k, 15k, 20k, you get it. CCP optimizes, they get more subscribers, a new limit is reached. I guess, the same posts will pop up when there are 50k or 100k users online at the same time. Originally by: Jiekon From what i`m aware of, reading the game rules, it's not against any rules to mine
Captain Clue Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2007.01.10 11:00:00 - [14] Originally by: Naran Darkmood I used to play Guild Wars for some time after release. I re-installed it lately again and quit immidiately. Even mission running in Saila is better than that. These posts come up regularly since beta, first it was with 3k concurrent users, then 5k, 7.5k, 10k, 15k, 20k, you get it. CCP optimizes, they get more subscribers, a new limit is reached. I guess, the same posts will pop up when there are 50k or 100k users online at the same time. Don't jest about 100k people on at the same time, imagine how many of them will be in jita!
Dao 2 Generals Of Destruction Syndicate The Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2007.01.10 11:02:00 - [15] Edited by: Dao 2 on 10/01/2007 10:59:40 yeah some places get laggy, specially jita when its real active but with that many ppl there its to be expected! still the real killer is fleet battles :\| (if u say "omg dont have them" ur completely retarded go throw urself off a cliff) edit: oh and blobbing itself isnt really it >< When people get together in fleets is really not that bad its just when the pew pew starts ;) ------------------------------------------------ NEWLY ADDED ON 1/19 (though applies to all posts before ;p) the usual "I don't represent my corp or alliance" and stuffs like that Also the gal
Cryus Aphax In The Face Productions	Posted - 2007.01.10 12:50:00 - [16] I've been quite amazed with the performance in Jita recently. I've been able to jump in, use the market, fit a ship and jump out whichout any huge problems with lag. Even on a Sunday evening when there is something like 700 people in system.
Lucy Lastic	Posted - 2007.01.10 12:56:00 - [17] WHAT LAG
Flyyn Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2007.01.10 13:04:00 - [18] You know the only lag I have is when I log on my squad of miners. Notice I am a 56k user so it can get pretty laggers. But then when all 12 are loged on I have no problems at all. This is as bad as it can get, but don't bet on it.
Kazuo Ishiguro	Posted - 2007.01.10 13:22:00 - [19] Edited by: Kazuo Ishiguro on 10/01/2007 13:18:55 Originally by: Cryus Aphax I've been quite amazed with the performance in Jita recently. I've been able to jump in, use the market, fit a ship and jump out whichout any huge problems with lag. Even on a Sunday evening when there is something like 700 people in system. Seconded - granted, it took a bit longer to actually jump in than it did to jump into the nearby systems, but it could have been a lot worse. As for me, I've relocated to a less busy mission hub which only has about 40 people in local most of the time, compared to ~130 in Motsu/Saila/Aramachi. ------ So you're lagged out in Motsu/Saila/Aramachi, but you want that CNR? Do missions for another corp!
Talmssar Caldari Raptus Regaliter Pride - Honor - Duty	Posted - 2007.01.10 14:42:00 - [20] Booh, I have played since release. I have seen the real lag days! I mean when it was up to hardware in fact. Now it is up to people and their clients (hardware). Mostly it is because " I just re-installed client again to get all smooth. " - Did u set up your client after cache clear / client reinstall? " What setup? I keep all graphs @ max etc. " That conversation is so usual with common players. I dont say it is players fault but they cause most of time lag what they are getting. Not SERVER(s). Try learn how to use your computers, it is not gaming console wich do not need setups at all. (in eve there is even hidden client setup settings for advanced users or at least was:P I dont have had need to touch em at all. Allso I dont need to reinstall my client at all:) I used same base installation over year with no problems.) I just prefer that all have good time here.
Riho Red Wrath Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2007.01.10 15:56:00 - [21] well, i dont have lagg isses... well, ofc when i get near jita and stuff.. yes.. but thats understandable. but some ppl say the game is unplayable and then say its the servers fault.... well if it was unplayable wouldnt be there more ppl writing angry posts ? not 10-20 ppl... but thousands. there are 2 other factors that some computer noobs (ppl who have litle clue how computers work) dont think about.... theyr ISP and what route does your connection take to reach EVE servers and theyr own PCs/laptops that are infested whit spyware/un defragmented hard drives/ 1gb eve cache folder/ bad drivers and so on. im not saying that there isnt server lag at all.... yes it happens... but its not as bad as some ppl make it out to be.
Riho Red Wrath Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2007.01.10 15:56:00 - [22] well, i dont have lagg isses... well, ofc when i get near jita and stuff.. yes.. but thats understandable. but some ppl say the game is unplayable and then say its the servers fault.... well if it was unplayable wouldnt be there more ppl writing angry posts ? not 10-20 ppl... but thousands. there are 2 other factors that some computer noobs (ppl who have litle clue how computers work) dont think about.... theyr ISP and what route does your connection take to reach EVE servers and theyr own PCs/laptops that are infested whit spyware/un defragmented hard drives/ 1gb eve cache folder/ bad drivers and so on. im not saying that there isnt server lag at all.... yes it happens... but its not as bad as some ppl make it out to be.
Herculite Hunters Agency Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.01.10 15:57:00 - [23] Three days ago.... After over an hour of cat and mouse. We think they fell into our trap. They think we did. 20 vrs 20 in agil, almost even in ship types. 80 in local. This should be one of those fights where we are all happy with the outcome, win or lose, the stuff eve is made out of, its why I play the game. I don't play it to make isk. 1 frame per 15 seconds or so. I think only about five ships died total on both sides before we all gave up. I got a hawk kill. Problem was I never targeted a hawk, my drones did it, I never saw it, and I'm sure he didn't either. This is not acceptable.
Herculite Hunters Agency Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.01.10 15:57:00 - [24] Edited by: Herculite on 10/01/2007 15:55:21 Double posty
Herculite Hunters Agency Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.01.10 15:57:00 - [25] Three days ago.... After over an hour of cat and mouse. We think they fell into our trap. They think we did. 20 vrs 20 in agil, almost even in ship types. 80 in local. This should be one of those fights where we are all happy with the outcome, win or lose, the stuff eve is made out of, its why I play the game. I don't play it to make isk. 1 frame per 15 seconds or so. I think only about five ships died total on both sides before we all gave up. I got a hawk kill. Problem was I never targeted a hawk, my drones did it, I never saw it, and I'm sure he didn't either. This is not acceptable.
Herculite Hunters Agency Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.01.10 15:57:00 - [26] Edited by: Herculite on 10/01/2007 15:55:21 Double posty
Logi3 sasha and co Brotherhood Of Steel	Posted - 2007.01.10 16:01:00 - [27] Me and a mate recently upgraded computers and we have both noticed a decrease in lag. I have never had lag on my new system, market comes up straight away etc. Same for him and hes recently been involved in some big battles. But Eve does seem to be spending more time down then it used too
Logi3 sasha and co Brotherhood Of Steel	Posted - 2007.01.10 16:01:00 - [28] Me and a mate recently upgraded computers and we have both noticed a decrease in lag. I have never had lag on my new system, market comes up straight away etc. Same for him and hes recently been involved in some big battles. But Eve does seem to be spending more time down then it used too
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.10 16:18:00 - [29] Damn, my tinfoil hat draw is nearly empty........... -----------------------------------------------
Alassra Eventide Veldspar Industries	Posted - 2007.01.10 16:28:00 - [30] Wonder how many times this needs to be said... It doesn't matter if there is 1 person in local or 300, if you are on the same node (note: Nodes do not equal space systems) as a mahor fleet battle between two major alliances, or the same node as 400 other people randomly killing each other, you will suffer degraded performance compared to a low traffic node. Then again, most people never check to see if it's really the servers' fault, or whether it has to do with the route their isp takes them into the servers with.
ghosttr Amarr Point-Zero Ratel Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.10 16:28:00 - [31] The only lag I have noticed that keeps getting worse is database lag. Everything else keeps getting better and faster (thank god the queues are gone). I rarely get system lag anymore but even after cache deletes (which i have to do religiously everytime i play to avoid lag) it can take up to 10 minutes for my chat windows to appear (which is deadly if you are in 0.0 and cant watch local). I also see alot of lag with anything in people in places, which in have about 50 entries total, and it can still take up to 5 minutes to load. Market lag is also getting worse, I can buy an item and it can take some time before it shows up as not being on the market anymore. Also we have a nerfed escrow because it slow the database down (I would rather have lag there, because i could at lest find things) SUPPORT T2 FIX!
CharlieMurphy Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2007.01.10 16:29:00 - [32] a couple of patches b4 rmr the market used to pop up instantly aswell i dont see how the client pc affects how long it takes the server to send you the market details as for the lag, well if you get enough people in the same place all shooting each other then the game freezes i dont beleive its got anything to do with the client tbh,its either the server is lacking the bandwidth to communicate effectively or its lacking the resources to keep up with the calculations in a large battle if thats totally wrong i would welcome a dev to come and correct me the way things are now if you want to take a system off somebody in 0.0 all you have to do is get 300 to 400 people and get them in before the other side notices and once your fleet is nicely camped there isnt much that can be done about it because the game is too broken to cope with the numbers my experience of eve is anything more than about 50 vs 50 you migth aswell not bother cause even if you win the battle you wont enjoy it
Herculite Hunters Agency Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.01.10 16:42:00 - [33] I get annoyed when people assume you don't know server lag from client lag to start. When you have 40 different people, from just about every part of the globe, all lagging at the same time, its not your ISP. On a flip side I'd love to see CCP release a wire frame client, I have a high endish PC but there are still times the client chokes a bit. I love the graphics but you never really see them when you are fighting anyways.
sigheve	Posted - 2007.01.10 17:10:00 - [34] Edited by: sigheve on 10/01/2007 17:07:01 Natural everyday lag is minimal depending on what you do. If you live in Jita, I am sure lag is probably terrible for obvious reasons. To be completely honest, its not even my biggest gripe with the game. When your ship dies, and short burst of lag that comes with it is annoying. And no, its not my machine, I just built it a few months ago. This was never a problem when you could double click something to warp, but meh. There are places in certain regions that are normally dead, that lag badly. It really doesn't make any sense why either. First people assumed it was because the systems were on the same nodes as major hubs, but CCP has said that most major hubs have their own nodes now, so who knows. What I was getting at is that most people seem to want less lag in big battles. It seems that no matter how much hardware upgrading CCP do, instead of making it better, more people join the game, and the fights get larger. A dynamic system would make much better use of their hardware and is really needed if they never plan on sharding (which I don't think needs to be done either).
Malcanis	Posted - 2007.01.10 17:17:00 - [35] Originally by: Logi3 Me and a mate recently upgraded computers and we have both noticed a decrease in lag. I have never had lag on my new system, market comes up straight away etc. Same for him and hes recently been involved in some big battles. But Eve does seem to be spending more time down then it used too Probably your "lag" was accessing of the cache.
coolzero Gallente Horizon.Inc Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2007.01.10 17:24:00 - [36] imagine.... all wow player quiting and play EVE 7 million on a single server :) i like to see them handling that. Jack of all trades, master of none... Horizon-Inc (dutch only)
scabbsssjr Gallente M'8'S	Posted - 2007.01.10 17:28:00 - [37] Originally by: Captain Clue Originally by: Naran Darkmood I used to play Guild Wars for some time after release. I re-installed it lately again and quit immidiately. Even mission running in Saila is better than that. These posts come up regularly since beta, first it was with 3k concurrent users, then 5k, 7.5k, 10k, 15k, 20k, you get it. CCP optimizes, they get more subscribers, a new limit is reached. I guess, the same posts will pop up when there are 50k or 100k users online at the same time. Don't jest about 100k people on at the same time, imagine how many of them will be in jita! 30k ppl were on the other day with 600 in jita. Thats 1/50 of the eve ppl online lets say 100k ppl are online, thats 2000 PPL. I hope they do something about jita at about 1900ppl, because 2000 is nuts What ever I say is my own views and not of my corp.
JP Moregain Gallente EVE Reserve Bank	Posted - 2007.01.10 17:57:00 - [38] Edited by: JP Moregain on 10/01/2007 17:54:27 "Is Eve collapsing under its own weight?" No, that is Chowdown's sig-chick sitting on you... Regards, JP http://www.evereserve.com
El Marchetto	Posted - 2007.01.10 18:08:00 - [39] Yes indeed...lag...well yes it gotten gradually worse over the years, and now its at its worst ever, specially since Kali hit, my gawd after < 10 jumps I'm running powerpoint here... Now, nothing else has changed on my PC, it still runs everything else perfectly, and EVE now runs like its in an emulator shell, gobbles up 100% CPU all the time, and is, well, pretty much unplayable most of the time. So in summary, I'd say YES to the OP, EVE is really collapsing under its own weight, and unless CCP do what they should have begun 2-3 years ago (i.e. rewrite/redesign the entire server architecture) it will only get worse, and worse, and worse... Of course they will most likely do what they've done several times already, and just throw a large shint block of expensive hardware at it, and hope the PR of 'having new stuff' keeps enough subscribers happy...its what's happened on several occasions before...
Valrandir Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.01.10 21:07:00 - [40] no -------------------------------- This has surpassed the Yarrdware specification and has been dubbed Uberware.
Dutarro Kydance Radiant Industries	Posted - 2007.01.10 22:54:00 - [41] Originally by: Chillshock In what way does rewriting code get more difficult with the amount of people using it? It's still the same amount of code only with more data telling you what you need to do. :D ... Rewriting code gets harder as more layers of modification are piled on top of it. Code may start out nice and clean when the original developer writes it, let's call him Fred. But then, a year later, it's time to add a nifty feature and Joe the summer intern is assigned to it .. oops Joe's not such a good programmer and the feature is full of bugs. His mentor, Bob has to fix it up but Bob can't figure out what Fred was originally thinking since Fred doesn't believe in comments, and he no longer works there. If that weren't bad enough, the code has been further jumbled up by Joe's changes, none of which were committed to the right branch in the source control system. Bob does the best he can and (barely) gets it working, but from then on all devs avoid that piece of code like a stinking animal carcass. Of course CCP couldn't possibly have those kinds of problems
Ben Derindar KelBen Productions	Posted - 2007.01.11 00:15:00 - [42] Originally by: JP Moregain "Is Eve collapsing under its own weight?" No, that is Chowdown's sig-chick sitting on you... /Ben How to fix Eve
Reiisha Satal's Legion Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.01.11 00:19:00 - [43] Originally by: sigheve Yes this is an alt post, but only because I have no active accounts and I still read the forums because I care about the game but I find it semi-boring atm. Hardware I have played the game a long time, and have friends who have played since the time when having a cruiser was a big deal. Problems, imbalances, and bugs have came and went. The one problem that has not left us, and is getting worse by the day is lag. A while ago, Tranq got its first major hardware upgrade. At the time, that was supposed to make everything peachy. Instead, thousands more players joined. Now, that is a good thing game wise, bad performance wise. Now it feels like CCP is making hardware upgrades just to make the gameplay semi acceptable. I have always wondered if the fundamental way the game was designed (mostly how the hardware was utilized at the code level) was practical. It was fine when there were 5000 players, not so much with 25,000. It seems more practical to use all the cpu's as a pool instead of assigning solar systems to seperate nodes. It is too finite and is why there are node crashes when people insist on blobbing up. (Imagine every person in a region of WoW leaving their servers to play on one single server with little or no warning. This is an extreme example, but the same idea. And no, I do not play that boring game either.) I don't see Eve losing players (except maybe some vets who favored the good ol days). I see its population growing even more. How impossible would it be to rewrite the server at such a fundamental level? Does anyone else see what I am getting at or am I am completely lost on how the current system works? As far as i can tell, the lag got a lot better. I remember the bouncing off gates with trails of over 10 light years behind your ship, and getting podded twice in the same battle within a few minutes, even though the clone was on the other side of the universe. Or having to wait 15 minutes (i timed this) before jumping through a gate, between the jump command and the actual jumping. I actually got podded once because of this, you couldn;t do anything else because you were already jumping. EVE History Wiki - Help us fill it!
Rekria	Posted - 2007.01.11 00:26:00 - [44] Lag shouldn't become a tactic in large fleet battles. Is there a viable solution? I'm not sure, but lag still shouldn't become a tactic.
Aaeolian	Posted - 2007.01.11 00:55:00 - [45] Before complaining about lag, you should check - good internet connection, network/router/firewalls, cache deleting and other game tweaks, system tweaks ie. other things running that dont need to be and overclocking etc... For me most of the time its client side lag. But sometimes its the server, which needs to be addressed. As we all know its the biggest enjoyment spoiler there is.

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