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Chihiro Chugakusei
Crimson Serpent Syndicate Heiian Conglomerate
63
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Posted - 2015.11.25 09:00:38 -
[1] - Quote
Proposal: Limit Ancillary Shield boosters to one per ship
Why change this module? 1. Ancillary Armor repairs are already limited to one per ship. 2. Dual ancillary shield boosters are a very powerful (overpowered?) combo. [See Dual ancillary boosters, & svipul]. 3. Dual Ancillaries give shield ships a second way (besides passive regen), to have capless tank, and with far fewer fitting limitations than passive regen.
Discussion: I was on SiSi doing t3 destroyer duels, testing fits for the different destroyers. Svipul obviously stood out as the best. Yes the svipul is easy to fit, but the main reason it is so strong and so easy to fit is these dual ancillary mediums. Combined with Cap-less guns, Cap-less tank, the complete freedom to fit 2 neuts and leave them running forever just syngergizes monstrously. Compound this with a basicaly infinite tank since you can fit 287+ Cap Booster 50s in your cargo hold, and svipuls fits this way might as well be a t4 destroyer.
I imagine if dual ancillaries are broken as hell on this ship, then it is on other ships with high resists too. If the reason to keep the modules this way, (multiple ancillaries per ship) is intended and makes shield tanking unique, then fine. But otherwise, it should be limited in the same way as ancillary armor repairs. So one per ship, because the way the modules are configured now they are ripe for abuse.
PS: I will be abusing them too now that I know.
Keep it up, +1
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Solarus Explorer
The Church of Awesome
9
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Posted - 2015.11.25 09:16:02 -
[2] - Quote
I play a lot with d3s, especially svipuls, however i dont find the dual ancil fit very good at all, neither for the svipul nor the jackdaw. So i'll have to -1 this suggestion.
I guess its a difference in opinion, but i find the dual med ancil fit to be rather weak compared to the buffer fit on the svipul and the active pithum c-type booster fit on the jackdaw. |
RcTamiya
SUPREME MATHEMATICS A Band Apart.
25
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Posted - 2015.11.25 09:17:04 -
[3] - Quote
Agreed ... however, some Vargurnerds would hate you :) |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
1046
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Posted - 2015.11.25 09:18:48 -
[4] - Quote
You aren't wrong. When the armor version was introduced they specifically cited the OP nature of tha ASB for both limiting the AAR to one per hull and not making it cap free.
Why, after acknowledging that the ASB was counter to current game design (immune to outside interference) they left them that way I will never understand.
So +1 from me. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
1311
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Posted - 2015.11.25 12:46:03 -
[5] - Quote
-1 the duel asb fits aren't all that op and a module being over powered on one ship is not a reason to nerff the entire module
The fact that AAR can only be for one is irrelevant for one armor had more resistance and gain a larger benefit from reps. Secondly armor and shield tank do not need to be more similar is good that they fly differently and have access to different fitting modules.
(As for the svip it is far from op with duel ASBs)
Fuel block colors? Missiles for Caldari T3? Corp Stasis
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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1601
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Posted - 2015.11.25 13:03:43 -
[6] - Quote
Getting beat by a svipul is not a sound basis for removing all dual ASB fits from the game. T3 dessy are getting worked. Just unbunch your panties until after the december changes get played on TQ for a bit.
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Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat FETID
1931
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Posted - 2015.11.25 14:53:21 -
[7] - Quote
triple asb vargurs are for winners
Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic | Angel Cartel | Serpentis |
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Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
1047
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Posted - 2015.11.25 14:53:39 -
[8] - Quote
Getting beat by a svipul may not, but the ASB is clearly an OP module, and has been so since its introduction. |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
1605
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Posted - 2015.11.25 15:02:47 -
[9] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:Getting beat by a svipul may not, but the ASB is clearly an OP module, and has been so since its introduction.
A few comments on this.
1. You're opinion on the ASB is wrong. I'll never be able to justify it to you, or convince you of it, but still in the end - it's wrong. 2. ASBs allow a lot of content to happen that wouldn't otherwise. Small gangs fighting above thier weight class is just one. 3. Before ASB local shield rep pvp didn't happen beyond the frigate level. Now it does. 4. Will some folks fall victim to ships sporting ASB? Yeah they will. They will also be open to loss from ships fitting a very large alternate array of modules. Drams were OP - everyone flew them. Ishtards - again everyone was flying them - OP. Everyone isn't running around w/ ASB - NOT OP. (again - your opinion is wrong and the vast population is proving it by not flying ASB only)
I don't like brussel sprouts, but they aren't OP. |
Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
331
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Posted - 2015.11.25 15:06:31 -
[10] - Quote
Dual ASBs are fine. They should also allow dual AAR also, but you'd have to increase the amount of nanite they consume to balance it.
I don't understand why there is such a vast cargo bay on T3 destroyers though, although that is nothing to do with needing to nerf dual ASBs.
Modulated ECM Effects
An Alternative to Skill Trading
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Stitch Kaneland
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
660
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Posted - 2015.11.25 15:14:12 -
[11] - Quote
Yeah! Dual XLASB ravens are so powerful, they get about the same tank as a dual armor rep phoon (1 AAR/1 LAR). This is too powerful. Nerf plz.
ASBs use an absurd amount of cpu. 2 XLASBs on a BS still normally need a cpu rig. AAR use the same fitting as t1 reps (less in some cases). They continue to rep (albeit at a reduced amount) when they run out of charges.
ASBs on the other hand stop repping and go into long reload. During this time you have 0 tank. Yes you can stagger them for a sustainable tank, but all it takes is enough dps to deplete them quickly and you can kill most ASB setups.
"But the Vargur!". The vargur is a marauder and has bastion and a shield boost bonus. To really make an XLASB setup work you need crystals and links. This not the fault of only the module, but a combination of bonuses. Same story for the sleip.
The svipul is similar because it has a "tank" mode and small sig. The small sig mitigates damage and so he doesnt have to cycle the ASBs as much. Again, this is not the fault of the module, but the ship its fitted on. This will probably change come december and the svipul will see either a speed nerf or sig increase (or both).
Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS
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Ncc 1709
Fusion Enterprises Ltd Phoenix Company Alliance
220
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Posted - 2015.11.25 16:05:52 -
[12] - Quote
dual asb ships are easy to deal with, just punch through to armor each hit.
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Nyalnara
The Unchained Club
193
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Posted - 2015.11.25 16:11:46 -
[13] - Quote
Stitch Kaneland wrote:They continue to rep (albeit at a reduced amount) when they run out of charges.
ASBs on the other hand stop repping and go into long reload.
It just mean that you're bad at managing your ship, as you forgot to reload a module. Don't worry, it may happen to everybody, no one is going to point at you for not being an elite PvPer.
French half-noob.
CEO of [.TUC.] The Unchained Club
Founder of [DEUPP] Dark Evil Undead Ponies Productions
In case of ponies, keep calm and start running.
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Stitch Kaneland
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
660
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Posted - 2015.11.25 16:40:57 -
[14] - Quote
Nyalnara wrote:Stitch Kaneland wrote:They continue to rep (albeit at a reduced amount) when they run out of charges.
ASBs on the other hand stop repping and go into long reload. It just mean that you're bad at managing your ship, as you forgot to reload a module. Don't worry, it may happen to everybody, no one is going to point at you for not being an elite PvPer.
Or, and i know this is a wild idea, there is enough dps on field that you burn through both ASBs before the first one is done reloading. Dont let that get in the way of your holier than thou attitude though.
Tanking a couple frigates is far different than tanking 8 HACs and a couple frigates.
Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS
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Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
331
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Posted - 2015.11.25 16:45:18 -
[15] - Quote
Nyalnara wrote:Stitch Kaneland wrote:They continue to rep (albeit at a reduced amount) when they run out of charges.
ASBs on the other hand stop repping and go into long reload. It just mean that you're bad at managing your ship, as you forgot to reload a module. Don't worry, it may happen to everybody, no one is going to point at you for not being an elite PvPer. Actually it is far better to keep it repping at the reduced amount if you have cleared a lot of the DPS off the field than to go onto a long reload with no reps at all. So Stitch is correct it is a useful feature of AARs.
Modulated ECM Effects
An Alternative to Skill Trading
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FT Cold
The Scope Gallente Federation
33
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Posted - 2015.11.25 17:07:38 -
[16] - Quote
I think the ASB offers a fine set of trade-offs for it's strength. If anything, the relative weakness of the AAR is something that should be investigated. Personally, I think that the AAR should have more charges and a slightly shorter reload time to compensate for it's relative weakness.
Edit: I don't want to mischaracterize the AAR, I still think that they're good and use them often, they're just weak in comparison. |
MicDeath Titan
Titans Guild
105
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Posted - 2015.11.25 19:32:40 -
[17] - Quote
https://zkillboard.com/kill/50142148/
http://www.twitch.tv/zarvoxtoral/v/25516481?t=38m49s
They are not THAT OP. |
Valacus
Streets of Fire
44
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Posted - 2015.11.25 19:47:09 -
[18] - Quote
Or just make cap booster charges bigger so people can't carry as many of them. |
Stitch Kaneland
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
661
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Posted - 2015.11.25 21:08:12 -
[19] - Quote
Valacus wrote:Or just make cap booster charges bigger so people can't carry as many of them.
Yea because affecting active tanking for both armor tanking and non ASB shield fits to fix a module that doesnt even need fixing is a good idea.
Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS
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Orca Platypus
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
85
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Posted - 2015.11.25 23:02:27 -
[20] - Quote
While admittedly I've been only in 3 t3d fights so far, your reasoning sounds like "We should nerf svipul because it's better at killing t3ds than other t3ds". Doesn't sound like a good enough reason to me.
I also use dual ASBs in PvE and I don't like where you are going. PvE has taken enough needless nerfs on behalf of irrelevant combat PvP. |
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Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
1052
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Posted - 2015.11.26 00:51:56 -
[21] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:Mike Voidstar wrote:Getting beat by a svipul may not, but the ASB is clearly an OP module, and has been so since its introduction. A few comments on this. 1. You're opinion on the ASB is wrong. I'll never be able to justify it to you, or convince you of it, but still in the end - it's wrong. 2. ASBs allow a lot of content to happen that wouldn't otherwise. Small gangs fighting above thier weight class is just one. 3. Before ASB local shield rep pvp didn't happen beyond the frigate level. Now it does. 4. Will some folks fall victim to ships sporting ASB? Yeah they will. They will also be open to loss from ships fitting a very large alternate array of modules. Drams were OP - everyone flew them. Ishtards - again everyone was flying them - OP. Everyone isn't running around w/ ASB - NOT OP. (again - your opinion is wrong and the vast population is proving it by not flying ASB only) I don't like brussel sprouts, but they aren't OP.
1. I'm fine with not being agreed with. It does not hurt my feelings. 2. lots of things can happen with unbalanced OP modules that would not without them. It's not a justification for leaving them OP. 3. Local tanks in PvP were never very common or effective. ASB made shield versions common because they provide all the benefit of buffer with the power of active reps. 4. Not every ship benefits from ASB, and yet are still useful. Just because they aren't so overpoweringly OP that they eclipse everything else does not mean they aren't OP.
It's not a case of not liking ASB. The Devs pointed out that they were OP, and designed the AAR to avoid the pitfalls of the ASB specifically because the ASB was OP. Then they lowered the repair value of the ASB a little and called it good. Specifically cited was that it was a mistake to make the ASB cap free, and that going forward they would avoid any more modules that were not susceptible to interference from other players.
Limiting the ASB to one per hull would restore a portion of cap dependence on those tanks. Rather than Dual ASB setups, having an ASB and a standard booster would be a thing, making the A in ASB actually mean what it says.
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Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
332
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Posted - 2015.11.26 01:19:11 -
[22] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:1. I'm fine with not being agreed with. It does not hurt my feelings. 2. lots of things can happen with unbalanced OP modules that would not without them. It's not a justification for leaving them OP. 3. Local tanks in PvP were never very common or effective. ASB made shield versions common because they provide all the benefit of buffer with the power of active reps. 4. Not every ship benefits from ASB, and yet are still useful. Just because they aren't so overpoweringly OP that they eclipse everything else does not mean they aren't OP.
Except for the fact that they are not OP. Except for the Svipul and Vargur can you name any other example of a ship which is OP due to ASBs?
Go do some solo roaming, you'll find dual or even triple armour reps are much more common and imo powerful than dual ASBs for solo and small gang.
Modulated ECM Effects
An Alternative to Skill Trading
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Bobb Bobbington
The Cult of the Rare Pepes
163
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Posted - 2015.11.26 02:44:57 -
[23] - Quote
I think that ASB are already balanced by the fact that they take up arguably the most valuable slots, take a ton of cpu, and have to go into reload for a minute. I don't see any reason to nerf them, they aren't as commonly flown with as other tanks, showing an overall trend for the population favoring other methods of tanking, and nerfing them would only hurt small gangs and solo players. |
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
15253
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Posted - 2015.11.26 03:26:06 -
[24] - Quote
Yeah, you have this backwards. AARs should have their fitting restrictions removed instead.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Atuesuel
League of Non-Aligned Worlds Snuffed Out
7
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Posted - 2015.11.26 05:09:42 -
[25] - Quote
If you dont think dual ASB here is a Kill that i did with a 650 dps navy vexor and a few fac navy kill mail scabs. the only reason we servived was because we had ecm there it took 15min to kill him. and as you can see he only died because he ran out of cap charges.
https://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=24178330
and here is my friends varga in a high grade crystal.
https://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=29361165 |
Ellendras Silver
CrashCat Corporation
218
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Posted - 2015.11.26 05:54:50 -
[26] - Quote
Solarus Explorer wrote:I play a lot with d3s, especially svipuls, however i dont find the dual ancil fit very good at all, neither for the svipul nor the jackdaw. So i'll have to -1 this suggestion.
I guess its a difference in opinion, but i find the dual med ancil fit to be rather weak compared to the buffer fit on the svipul and the active pithum c-type booster fit on the jackdaw.
explain why for armor they need to be limited to 1 per ship and for shield it is ok to use more then one on a ship?
[u]Carpe noctem[/u]
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Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
1053
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Posted - 2015.11.26 06:15:43 -
[27] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Yeah, you have this backwards. AARs should have their fitting restrictions removed instead.
Amazingly, I actually agree with Kaarous.
I actually would have gone a different route, with a module that altered the function of reps, rather than an altered rep module.
You could have had an Auxillary Aegis Capacitor that reduced Shield Boosters and Armor Repairers to zero cap, boosted repair amount, sped up cycle time, etc, while it was active. It would consume the batteries, leaving you with a standard tank when it was on recharge.
You would need only one, you could fit multiple reps, but at a higher opportunity cost in slots. If you really wanted to you could do a seperate version for shield and Armor.
This would have retained the relative balance between shield and Armor. |
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