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Keshi Linegod Amarr Space Turtle Services	Posted - 2007.01.12 17:56:00 - [31] I understand the reasons for NBSI, but I also think that it is counter productive to what people have been trying to do recently that is repopulate low-sec and get people out of empire. With NBSI you can never ask a few people who are not part of a large allience to take the risk of getting shot up every where and move out of the saftey of empire. -------------------------------------------------- EvE is a sand box. Build a sand castle and beg someone to come destroy it just so you can have the fun of building it up again.
Xelios Minmatar Rampage Eternal Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.01.12 17:58:00 - [32] What's the point of owning space if you need an escort fleet every time you want to move a hauler around in it?
Alan Tappan	Posted - 2007.01.12 18:01:00 - [33] I belonged to a alliance down south with my old character. I had a few times where someone would come into our space and immediatly contact one of use to let us know what they are doing. Its all part of the way things run out there. If you know your in someone elses space and you see them in local. Send a convo or shout in local and let them know what your doing. If you dont then it only makes sense that your considered hostile. Hell I had a guy show up at one of our outpost, sit outside, and convo me asking politely for access to the outpost and gave me his references. It seems to me like a good policy, especially for large alliances. Quote: null
Able Citizen Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.01.12 18:01:00 - [34] Originally by: Paddlefoot Aeon Edited by: Paddlefoot Aeon on 12/01/2007 16:50:28 Lets say you own space, which your alliance lives in. Regressive doggerel! Space cannot be "owned".
Ceanthar Cerbera Minmatar Lone Gunmen Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.01.12 18:07:00 - [35] Originally by: Xelios Edited by: Xelios on 12/01/2007 17:59:33 What's the point of owning space if you need an escort fleet every time you want to move a hauler around in it? whats the point of owning a car when someone might steal it tonight? I live in a quite safe town but I can never be sure I wont be robbed or worse. Still that dont make me runa around treating everyone with suspicion. ----------------------------------------- For the liberation and safety of the Matari people!
Able Citizen Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.01.12 18:08:00 - [36] Originally by: Ceanthar Cerbera Edited by: Ceanthar Cerbera on 12/01/2007 16:46:30 How is it that this well practised policy of NBSI came to be? snip If id have to guess NBSI came to be out of fear and lazyness. Its easy to just say "Ok shoot all you see and youll be safe". There is no thought involved, no higher purpose. Just pure self preservation without humanity. You said a mouthful, my brother. There is no fully successful policy for maintaining a large, territorialist alliance. Until we, as a species, are able to transcend the fear and paranoia that pervades the cluster, NBSI will be common practice. Those of us that eschew this mindset endeavor to change minds one at a time. I applaud your evolved thinking.
Ceanthar Cerbera Minmatar Lone Gunmen Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.01.12 18:12:00 - [37] Originally by: Alan Tappan I belonged to a alliance down south with my old character. I had a few times where someone would come into our space and immediatly contact one of use to let us know what they are doing. Its all part of the way things run out there. If you know your in someone elses space and you see them in local. Send a convo or shout in local and let them know what your doing. If you dont then it only makes sense that your considered hostile. Hell I had a guy show up at one of our outpost, sit outside, and convo me asking politely for access to the outpost and gave me his references. It seems to me like a good policy, especially for large alliances. yes but this require them to not shoot you at first sight. and many do that. theres no time to tell your buisness, and even so they arent interested. thats my experience in most cases and the experience of a lot of others. ----------------------------------------- For the liberation and safety of the Matari people!
Ceanthar Cerbera Minmatar Lone Gunmen Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.01.12 18:13:00 - [38] Originally by: Able Citizen Originally by: Ceanthar Cerbera Edited by: Ceanthar Cerbera on 12/01/2007 16:46:30 How is it that this well practised policy of NBSI came to be? snip If id have to guess NBSI came to be out of fear and lazyness. Its easy to just say "Ok shoot all you see and youll be safe". There is no thought involved, no higher purpose. Just pure self preservation without humanity. You said a mouthful, my brother. There is no fully successful policy for maintaining a large, territorialist alliance. Until we, as a species, are able to transcend the fear and paranoia that pervades the cluster, NBSI will be common practice. Those of us that eschew this mindset endeavor to change minds one at a time. I applaud your evolved thinking. well thank you. I may come forth as an idealist but everyone here knows what Im saying is right. ----------------------------------------- For the liberation and safety of the Matari people!
Malcanis	Posted - 2007.01.12 18:15:00 - [39] Originally by: Ceanthar Cerbera Edited by: Ceanthar Cerbera on 12/01/2007 16:46:30 How is it that this well practised policy of NBSI came to be? Theres long since been a very much unstable and hostile reality being in 0.0 and much of it due to one policy enactded - (If) Not Blue Shoot It. In all sence it means if you havent talked to me before and made friends with me I will shoot you on site. No matter who you are, what ever your intentions may be, youre going to get shot. Is it something that you who resides in 0.0 really want? There seem to be little will in building something greater than that. Some have tried there was this one region called Blue Space where anyone with friendly intentions could come and mine, belt hunt etc. But others could not stand for it had to destroy it and now its gone. Other examples are ISS that let anyone use their stations and travel into their territory. They also have lots of trouble with other alliances, pirates if you like who just dont stand for it, wishing to destroy just because they can. NBSI ftw. Me for one do not go by NBSI those times im in 0.0. I find it childish and stupid and against all principles I stand for as a human being. Just like the wild west there are those who like to live in peace and stand up against those who dwell on the darjker sides of humanity. But why arent there any wild bill hickock and wyatt earp in EVE? If id have to guess NBSI came to be out of fear and lazyness. Its easy to just say "Ok shoot all you see and youll be safe". There is no thought involved, no higher purpose. Just pure self preservation without humanity. Eve is what WE make of it. Do we really want a dark place where higher values like charity and compassion are worthless? Its just my humble thought and question - why NBSI? Because the huge majority of non-blue capsuleers try to kill me.
Culmen Caldari Gekidoku	Posted - 2007.01.12 18:15:00 - [40] Originally by: Ceanthar Cerbera Originally by: Culmen Its really simple really From a quick glance in local it is impossible to tell if those 5 neutrals are A) 4 hulks and a Hauler or B)4 Sniper-pests and a dictor snip Yes but there are ways around this. Its what we all do when hauling or what ever. Convoy. I live in low sec, pirates are my everyday reality yet I dont go around all paraoind shooting first asking later. I recon, move in groups, stay smart. Friends with most, shooting those who want me harm. sometimes you just got to move alot of bulky cheap stuff its so much easier and much more efficent to get your friends together just to remove some nuetrals rather then every single time you have a badger load of trit to move better to have a consistantly safe route then to be bugging your friends twice a day just because you got a load of veld _____________________________________________________ Why do i even need a sig?
Ozzie Asrail FATAL REVELATIONS FATAL Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.12 18:15:00 - [41] Originally by: Ceanthar Cerbera Originally by: Sean Dillon [<snip> <snip> so youre back at "because I can". Once you boil down to it, that is the reason for NBSI. If I can I will shoot anyone I like. Now isnt that a bit low? And is that the world we want to be living in? It's a game. It's really not much more complicated than that. When you play a game of football do you refuse to tackle or score and jsut decide to pass the ball around in fair equal timed sessions to amke sure noone feels sad? -----
DubanFP Caldari Four Rings Myriad Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.12 18:19:00 - [42] Originally by: Kovid Mine asteroids Kill NPCs Missions Use agents Do a complex Passing through to another area. Deliver goods to a member of your alliance the first 5 are wasting YOUR alliance's resources anyways, so why would you even want that? Look truth is we have our own problems, and since we dont really care if we shoot you or not we're better off just shooting you. You could be a threat and there's no reason not to shoot you. It's a game, you entered 0.0 knowing you could get shot, what's the problem? __________________________ Why babelfish is bad mmm k "which the night do not expect that it calls the primary education before becoming deformed inside"
Ceanthar Cerbera Minmatar Lone Gunmen Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.01.12 18:22:00 - [43] Originally by: Ozzie Asrail Originally by: Ceanthar Cerbera Originally by: Sean Dillon [<snip> <snip> so youre back at "because I can". Once you boil down to it, that is the reason for NBSI. If I can I will shoot anyone I like. Now isnt that a bit low? And is that the world we want to be living in? It's a game. It's really not much more complicated than that. When you play a game of football do you refuse to tackle or score and jsut decide to pass the ball around in fair equal timed sessions to amke sure noone feels sad? yes that is a point of view. I know many see EVE as a game. Others see it as a project, an alternative reality. Eve dont have any set rules, we all make the rules up just like real life. So why should I abide by your laws if I feel they are wrong? The Geneva convention came to be out of fear that someone would do harm to you. No one likes that and so we all agreed that lets not do it to each others. Now we still dont live in such a world. Some even claim to live by the convention and still break it but Id like to think were all trying to get there. Why? Because deep down in ourself we feel that that is the only way we can be safe. ----------------------------------------- For the liberation and safety of the Matari people!
Ceanthar Cerbera Minmatar Lone Gunmen Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.01.12 18:25:00 - [44] Originally by: DubanFP Originally by: Kovid Mine asteroids Kill NPCs Missions Use agents Do a complex Passing through to another area. Deliver goods to a member of your alliance the first 5 are wasting YOUR alliance's resources anyways, so why would you even want that? Look truth is we have our own problems, and since we dont really care if we shoot you or not we're better off just shooting you. You could be a threat and there's no reason not to shoot you. It's a game, you entered 0.0 knowing you could get shot, what's the problem? Sure but what about the 80% of space you claim that you dont mine or rat actively? You can only use so much resources. Also they are infinite so how I can I be using them up? ----------------------------------------- For the liberation and safety of the Matari people!
DubanFP Caldari Four Rings Myriad Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.12 18:30:00 - [45] Originally by: Ceanthar Cerbera So why should I abide by your laws if I feel they are wrong? Because we'll shoot you? You have every right to come into our territory, and we have every right to shoot you for it. Originally by: Ceanthar Cerbera The Geneva convention came to be out of fear that someone would do harm to you. No one likes that and so we all agreed that lets not do it to each others. Now we still dont live in such a world. Some even claim to live by the convention and still break it but Id like to think were all trying to get there. Why? Because deep down in ourself we feel that that is the only way we can be safe. It's been said time and time again. It's a game, fun > safe. Always had been always will be. If fun wasn't > safe then everyone would always stay in empire. Nobody dies in a video game, i dont' see why you can't understand this. Sure nobody likes losing ships but why? Cause then they have to do un-fun stuff to get back into a ship so they can risk losing it again. __________________________ Why babelfish is bad mmm k "which the night do not expect that it calls the primary education before becoming deformed inside"
SSgt Sniper Gallente Zekarus Ltd.	Posted - 2007.01.12 18:31:00 - [46] Originally by: DubanFP Originally by: Kovid Mine asteroids Kill NPCs Missions Use agents Do a complex Passing through to another area. Deliver goods to a member of your alliance the first 5 are wasting YOUR alliance's resources anyways, so why would you even want that? Look truth is we have our own problems, and since we dont really care if we shoot you or not we're better off just shooting you. You could be a threat and there's no reason not to shoot you. It's a game, you entered 0.0 knowing you could get shot, what's the problem? Just because you can do a thing, does not follow that you must do that thing. NBSI policy (which I don't enjoy) drove me out of my 0.0 corp and alliance and made my experience, taste bad. I did not agree with folks shooting folks just because they can then, I still don't now. --------- Representing all the casual gamers happily living in Empire, that want NO PART of your 0.0 annoyances. However, I do not represent my corp. We vote first.
Elmicker Unscoped Myriad Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.12 18:40:00 - [47] Main reasons for NBSI. It's fun; people enjoy PvP and by entering 0.0 you are consenting to any and all PvP thrown your way. 99% of people in 0.0 are out looking for PvP, so you might as well get the message out that neutrals will be mercilessly slaughtered, so that your carebears can fund your PvP habits in peace. It's your space, you worked for it, you sat sieging poses/outposts for it, why should they leech off it for free? It saves confusion. Without NBSI, every time someone who wasn't blue turned up, we'd get 30 "FoF?" calls, all the while said neutral is probably in a nanophoon mauling some miners. You'll find almost all NBSI alliances will welcome you to their space provided you can provide something in return for them. You're using their space, its only fair they get something in return, and alliances tend to get a bit vexed when people don't give things in return...
DubanFP Caldari Four Rings Myriad Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.12 18:45:00 - [48] Edited by: DubanFP on 12/01/2007 18:44:52 I've lost hundreds of millions of isk to gate camps for reasons that vary from a couple ravens at the camp itself when i was a newb, to losing a small PoS while shields were down "with 200 mil fitted raven inside, no insurance collected" because i was unable to fuel it due to the constant camps at HED-GP. Finals limited my time during the PoS loss. But you can't hold them responsible for your own losses. You bought the ship, you risked it in .4 and lower, you lost it. You don't have to be happy about it, but they're just playing the game in thier own way, within game rules. You do not seem to get it. What you should do when someone blows up your ship is congratulate them, and ask them how you can do better next time. Anything else is immature. I've said it 100 times before and i'll say it again "It's a game". Although i will probebly keep reading on, this will be my final response. Please understand this. __________________________ Why babelfish is bad mmm k "which the night do not expect that it calls the primary education before becoming deformed inside"
Malicia Skirj	Posted - 2007.01.12 19:03:00 - [49] What do you do if you get up at 3 am and see some well armed guy creeping around your backyard? Call Concord? Sure...maybe...but let's suppose they take a little while to respond to "I think I see someone creeping around" calls. It's been known to happen. Frequently. Ok. You didn't shoot him...but maybe you'll watch him a bit. But wait..he just faded into the darkness somewhere. Now what? Go back to a peaceful sleep with Mr Well-Armed right outside? Ok..so you went back to sleep due to being non-NBSI...now he's waddling around in your kitchen eating the left over pizza you were going to have for breakfast tomorrow morning. Still well-armed. Now that you realize his intent is bad, it's a bit late. He's knee deep in your ****. You can factor in a slightly better knowledge of the area in your favor, but also consider...not only does he have access to his resources, he now has access to yours. Oh...and he phoned his friends earlier (while you slept peacefully) to join the party. So no...we're not back to "because I can"...we're back to "because it's not too bright to let an unknown wander around our territory. It's been said that more battles are lost by quartermasters than by generals. Suppose Mr Neut is simply gathering intel on your fuel supply chain, figuring out how you're working it and where to hit it? Not that you'd know that. He could give tons of reasonable excuses. Ok..move forward a bit to the future. He has enough info. Now he and a few buddies are nailing your haulers and anything else you might be using for capitol ships/POS/whatever. Switching alts every day or so to stay 'neutral'. Move a little farther into the future. You're now pretty desperate for supplies. What do you do? Say, "But we didn't shoot you even though we could have!!!"? Well, you can try...maybe in some vain hope that they'll say they were just kidding and go away. Odds are, though, they'll hop back onto their mains finally, and fly in with their corp/alliance and brand "NBSI would have prevented this" on the one remaining unkicked portion of your corp/alliances' ass. Let's look at this another way. A more realistic way. Two arbitrary countries...let's say a very small pack of US warplanes suddenly enters Russian airspace...what do you think is going to happen to those planes? And this is in reality with real consequences, so it should be perfectly understandable that unknown people in an area held by another group are going to be shot down first and interrogated later. If you think that's an unreasonable example, feel free to look up some info on Gary Powers. Personally, I'd prefer not having to shoot neuts, and I'd follow the policy of whatever corp/alliance I was in regardless of which way it went. However, my preference doesn't dictate the 'reality' of the game. Unknowns have proven to be dangerous too often in the past, so treating them all as dangerous is the most practical route to take.
RC Denton	Posted - 2007.01.12 19:10:00 - [50] I think the major point against NBSI has already been stated. You can put someone in a cov ops ship with a cov ops cloak in a system and even with the entire alliance in the system with you there's NOTHING you can do about it. So there's really no point to NBSI if your competition can roam your systems at will gathering Intel. All it is is a way for people who get their rocks off shooting others at random to justify their behaviour.
Nicocat Caldari New Age Solutions	Posted - 2007.01.12 19:12:00 - [51] I've recently become colorblind due to the policies of those around me. They're just lucky I can see the + sign. Blue, red, no color, they all pop the same to me. I just get in trouble if I shoot someone with that dastardly +... ;.; ---------------------------- Originally by: Splagada SEED ME DADDY WTB: Friggin' portrait
Astarte Nosferatu Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2007.01.12 19:22:00 - [52] Originally by: Dark Shikari Heard of CFS? They proved to EVE that a non-NBSI policy does not work for a large territory-holding alliance. In my opinion, it didn't prove anything. It's like people saying communism or fascisme/****sme doesn't work cause Russia and Germany didn't implement it the best possible way.
Beef Hardslab The 5 Amigo's LLC.	Posted - 2007.01.12 19:23:00 - [53] 2 things need to happen before the popularity of NBSI has even a chance of diminishing: POS guns need to fire on pods Sovereignty needs more security benefits Fix these major issues, and I can see NBSI loosening up a bit. Why there should be a breathalyzer to login to Eve: Originally by: Alliaanna Dalaii Podding my own alt in a gatecamp while drunk, he was carrying a hauler full of tech II goods, Oops.
Cipher7	Posted - 2007.01.12 19:35:00 - [54] NBSI is taking the game less seriously. NRDS is applying RL values to Eve.
Harry Manback Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.01.12 19:41:00 - [55] To the OP. I can see the frustration in this if you are a new player in the game, or have lived in High sec space with 0.0 as your dream or goal. I was this pilot too once, and many others in this game. When I lived in highsec I couldn't understand how alliances or corps that used an NBSI policy could be so mean and hateful. I considered these pilots griefers at one point, and figured them to be cowards and without honor and etc. Since I've lived in low sec/0.0 for over a year now, It changes your outlook and views on NBSI. My corp/alliance tried the Non-NBSI approach for quite some time. We protected neutral corps, and let them have their way in our "claimed" space. We had to put a stop to this because of the neutral scouts, neutral gank gangs, and spending so much time figuring out who was friendly/kos. So in the end...yes their are some wide-eyed neutral explorers/NPCers/Miners that are looking for some 0.0 action, but there are too many pilots looking to abuse the freedom of non-NBSI controlled space. So, please try to look at the situation from different points of view. Too many alliances/corps have put in the effort to claim and control space, and they don't like crows in their fields.
Morden Nok Cohortes Vigilum Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.12 19:44:00 - [56] CVA operates NRDSI. What I can say, it does lead to very, very long KOS lists. And also makes us hate CCP for giving us only 300 standing slots and not allowing to set standings toward another alliance. Yes, I know you can set overview + / - in alliance, but members of alliance marked as enemy are able to dock at outposts, unless the corp owning that outpost sets them to negative status (if you allow those with no standins to dock). It means lots of our enemies do use noob-corp alts to scout, but those numbers dropped massively after revelations. All local inhabitants are not just freeloaders, there are quite many that take part in defense of the region. Its also very good way to know who of the local inhabitants might be good recruitment material.
Liu Kaskakka PAK Shroud Of Darkness	Posted - 2007.01.12 19:53:00 - [57] Originally by: Ceanthar Cerbera But why arent there any wild bill hickock and wyatt earp in EVE? Liez, check my title ingame! King Liu is RIGHT!!
Ceanthar Cerbera Minmatar Lone Gunmen Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.01.12 19:55:00 - [58] Originally by: Malicia Skirj Let's look at this another way. A more realistic way. Two arbitrary countries...let's say a very small pack of US warplanes suddenly enters Russian airspace...what do you think is going to happen to those planes? And this is in reality with real consequences, so it should be perfectly understandable that unknown people in an area held by another group are going to be shot down first and interrogated later. If you think that's an unreasonable example, feel free to look up some info on Gary Powers. Well this is not realistic. Because thats not what happens. What happens is they get escorted out, diplomacy arises and the incident is resolved. Either in peace with apologies or with agression if the US dont back down. If real life applied NBSI the cold war would have led to a world war. It didnt happen. ----------------------------------------- For the liberation and safety of the Matari people!
Ralara Caldari Reunited O X I D E	Posted - 2007.01.12 19:55:00 - [59] Originally by: Dark Shikari Heard of CFS? They proved to EVE that a non-NBSI policy does not work for a large territory-holding alliance. Hard of ISS up north? -- Yeah, so Caldari suck at close range. Pity you'll never get there. These posts represent those of my corp or alliance. These do reflect official alliance or corp views This is not a dis
Xelios Minmatar Rampage Eternal Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.01.12 20:00:00 - [60] Edited by: Xelios on 12/01/2007 20:01:42 Originally by: Ceanthar Cerbera Edited by: Ceanthar Cerbera on 12/01/2007 18:05:24 Originally by: Xelios Edited by: Xelios on 12/01/2007 17:59:33 What's the point of owning space if you need an escort fleet every time you want to move a hauler around in it? whats the point of owning a car when someone might steal it tonight? I live in a quite safe town but I can never be sure I wont be robbed or worse. Still that dont make me runa around treating everyone with suspicion. edit: well ok maybe I to view people with a little suspicion but I dont go araound beating them up just to be sure they wont do it to me. I think a better analogy would be leaving the front door of your house wide open all the time with a little sign above saying "Please don't take my stuff". Inside you have tons of expensive electronics and all kinds of nice things that a lot of people would like to have but don't. Now when some complete stranger walks into your house without saying hello are you suspicious? NBSI is a lot like leaving the door locked. It means "stay out of our space". But because we can't lock the gates the only way is to pod people out, asking nicely may work 1 time out of 10, the other 9 while you're asking nicely he's moving on about his business. Maybe he gives a little "lol yea right" in local before he jumps out too. But as for the car analogy, if stealing that care wasn't against the law and the only person standing between the theif and a free $10,000 automobile was you, maybe you'd feel a little differently when you see people looking into the windows? In 0.0 anything goes, you have to assume the worst because more often than not that's exactly what you get. That's what makes it different from empire in the first place.

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