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[GAINS] Gain's Trading Dividends *2007-01-13*

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Rebuen Gain Gallente Gain's Trading	Posted - 2007.02.12 00:57:00 - [31] Originally by: Votee Other thing you seems to not realise that you will have diminishing percentage gains as you grow bigger. There is no way for example that you can make 30% profit in a week on 10 or 20B. Votee, I do realize that :). It's not my first day on the market - it's easier to make 100% when you don't have much, but takes a lot of wit when you have a lot. The 500M per week figure seems realistic to me, assuming I would have 5 billion ISK capital at my disposal. Look - if I've managed to earn 365M ISK last week, when I had 1.3B capital, I should be able to earn the same amount when I have 5.0B capital. So far I don't feel I've reached the point where I'm limited by the market itself, I'm mainly limited by the capital I own. By the way - the 500M ISK dividend would bring back 250M to the corporation itself. As you've noticed I'm already exceeding 250M profit per week, so I guess my promises aren't void :) Thanks for the great discussion to everyone interested! -- [GAINS] Initial investment thread A Diary of The Forge Trader
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.02.12 00:58:00 - [32] Originally by: Rebuen Gain Originally by: Dark Shikari I will only support a share issue if the shares are sold at reasonably above IPO price, like EMFI did. Penalizing current shareholders is bad IMO. c1iche has calculated the GAINS share value to be at about 5.8M, when compared to performance of other corporations, but I can't guarantee any price. The price would be set by the RESX stock market and the buy orders that would be placed there - a thing that I don't have control over. I guess if you're still undecided - wait for a while and see what will be going on on the RESX, and decide on Thursday. I'd say you should have a smaller share issue first, and slowly scale up, rather than a massive increase in value. -[23] Member- EVE-Trance Radio! (DSTrance channel ingame)
Rebuen Gain Gallente Gain's Trading	Posted - 2007.02.12 01:07:00 - [33] Originally by: Dark Shikari I'd say you should have a smaller share issue first, and slowly scale up, rather than a massive increase in value. You have a point here. I was afraid that a tenfold increase in share volume won't be acceptable. Anyway - the vote is still on, no matter what the result be, GAINS will be paying out the dividend as usual. Well, maybe "the more, the merrier" saying won't work here ;) -- [GAINS] Initial investment thread A Diary of The Forge Trader
Votee	Posted - 2007.02.12 01:18:00 - [34] Of course you can make 500M weekly with 5B capital, the debate is not about that. I try to put it an other way. Right now there are 1000 shares, and you made 365M in last week, thats 365K return in a week on every share which costed 1M originally, so 36,5% return in one week, which is fvcking damn good. And the projected one year profit per share is about 19M. If you issue the shares and the company will have 10K shares and make - lets make a generous assumption here - 1B weekly, thats 100K return in a week. Which is 10%, which is still awesome, but nowhere near the original 36,5% return. Projected one year profit per share is about 5.2M. regards, Votee
Rebuen Gain Gallente Gain's Trading	Posted - 2007.02.12 01:32:00 - [35] That's a valid point, Votee, but also note - everything depends on your definition of corporation's performance. If you're interested in 365M growth last week, then great, I appreciate your best wishes for growth of GAINS. On the other hand, if the definition of performance is tied to the value of dividend that's paid out - we have a completely different math. I'm not paying out all of the profit as dividend on purpose. I want to accumulate capital for scaling out the operation. The plan I've made is a weekly 5% return on initial share value, and so far I've been able to keep and exceed it. It means I'm bound to pay out 50,000 ISK per share per week, and I will be paying that much, maybe sometimes a bit more, until I accumulate enough capital for scaling out. The share issue is about getting this capital faster, and as a result - to bring more return per share faster. As I've said - it would be up to the traders to decide how much are they willing to pay per share. I totally agree with your point and I hope you also see my point now. The debate is still on, and I guess it will be till Friday. On Saturday there's a report to be posted, so I guess I'll be going back to trading. Cheers! -- [GAINS] Initial investment thread A Diary of The Forge Trader
Votee	Posted - 2007.02.12 01:51:00 - [36] Edited by: Votee on 12/02/2007 01:48:45 Yeah, you dont plan to dividend out all the profit, thats ok, but it doesnt change the share valuation much. If you, for example earn 100M, then its either dividended out, or retained. In the first case investors get ISK, in the latter they get company value increase. And the two are the same amount. Retaining is even better in the long term, because it increase the projected income, because more capital to invest, more return - hopefully :-), and increase the future dividend as well.
Rebuen Gain Gallente Gain's Trading	Posted - 2007.02.12 02:00:00 - [37] Hey Votee, I see I will have to learn some stuff (the category name rocks btw) anyway, to satisfy all the traditionalists here . Thanks for making me read this, after all I don't have anything more interesting to do . -- [GAINS] Initial investment thread A Diary of The Forge Trader
Benvie	Posted - 2007.02.12 03:36:00 - [38] I guess my biggest issue is that I originally paid for X% of the corp. That X% is represented by shares, but it's the important part is not the number of shares but the percentage of the company. With the release of shares I retain the same number of shares but my percentage drastically decreases.
Robacz Gallente	Posted - 2007.02.12 08:57:00 - [39] Votes Yes. More ISK for Gain = more profitsssss for me! _________ Buying/Selling: Implants & Hardwirings Producing/BPCs: Mining Barges, T2 Components T2 Distribution: 8 regions covered
c1iche	Posted - 2007.02.12 22:52:00 - [40] I was thinking about the way this problem is solved in the Real World. When a company wishes to create new shares 'out of thin air' (as in the EVE system) there is a 'rights issue' (I believe this is compulsory by law). In this case, the company gives existing shareholders the right (hence the name) to buy enough of the new shares to maintain their present percentage ownership of the company. These are sold at a discount. Remaining shares (if existing shareholders choose not to exercise their rights) can be sold at full price to the general public. So if a company has 1000 shares and wishes to create an extra 500; it offers discounted shares to current shareholders at a rate of 1 new share for every 2 they presently own. Those who take up their 'right' will continue to own the same proportion of the company that they did at the start. If they do not wish to use their right; they can (in the real world at least) sell it on to allow someone else to buy shares at discount. I'm not sure how best to achieve this in EVE. Either by using the initial subscriber list to offer first refusal on new shares (you can say that shares were initially sold 'cum rights' and have since been transferred 'ex rights', or even track down the current shareholders). Or by simply representing the value of the rights as an extra dividend given out just before the new shares are created. Either way I think there would have to be a fixed selling price for the new shares - not simply 'whatever the highest buy order is at the time' which will almost certainly cause the prices to drop immensely. The exact number can be subject to much conjecture and debate but the only objective value I have seen so far (my own included) is the value at which we have seen shares sold on RESX already (admittedly only 3 of them). The above conditions represent the best way I can think of to generate more capital for GAINS (a good thing) without damaging the investment of present shareholders - evidenced by its use in the Real World. And, as has been stated above, a 10:1 issue is far too potentially disruptive at present. So at present I continue to agree with what appears to be the prevailing opinion: no to the issue. ps - Robacz: more isk for GAINS is only guaranteed to mean more isk for you if your stake in GAINS remains proportionally identical. The issue as Rebuen has described it means nothing of the sort, and could easily see what has so far been a nearly 300% profit over 5 weeks (capital and dividends paid so far) turn into the 5% per week Rebuen has stated as his minimum aim (which I have no doubts he could achieve)
Rebuen Gain Gallente Gain's Trading	Posted - 2007.02.13 01:00:00 - [41] Darn, I was typing for so long, that my browser session has expired and I've lost my post... This time I'll make it short. c1iche, thanks for your informative post - I will make use of your suggestion in case this vote will decide not to create the shares. If the shareholders decide to create another 9000 shares - I'm going to make sure the 4500 shares that would be sold to public bring as much capital as possible, by using all the mechanics RESX allows. This would mean that the 500 shares aren't guaranteed to be sold every day, and would make my "accounting" work a bit harder over the period of time. Too bad EVE stockmarket mechanics are so simplified. Personally I regret that there's no in-game mechanic to trade shares as a "commodity", and there's no central stock exchange. But luckily RESX and EGSE fill the gap perfectly. I've just took a look at RESX and can see there are buy orders for 110 GAINS shares, which would bring 220M ISK. That's only 22% of what was supposed to be sold in a single day of 9-day period of share issue. On the other hand it's nice to see that GAINS shares are being priced at over 200% of their initial value :) Also - about this whole debate. It's great to see that the doubts the investors are having are about the percentage of the corporation which they own, not about my ability to trade. It's a nice change :) Regards -- [GAINS] Initial investment thread A Diary of The Forge Trader
Votee	Posted - 2007.02.13 01:10:00 - [42] What if there wont be enough buy orders in RESX to sell the daily 500 shares? What happen then? At what price the remaining shares will be sold?
Benvie	Posted - 2007.02.13 01:37:00 - [43] I am enjoying this debate as well. I'm not against the idea of GAINS expanding in some way or another, I just want my good judgment in buying shares in the IPO to pay off for me. I had a good feeling about you and I'm glad to see it wasn't misplaced.
Rebuen Gain Gallente Gain's Trading	Posted - 2007.02.13 08:57:00 - [44] Originally by: Votee Edited by: Votee on 13/02/2007 01:14:13 What if there wont be enough buy orders in RESX to sell the daily 500 shares? What happen then? At what price the remaining shares will be sold? Edit:Its very likely that they wont be sold out throught RESX, because right now the whole capitalization of RESX is about 2B-2.5B, consisting 850m ISK, 500m worth of ISSO shares - which are absolutely dead weight right now - 450m worth of AMESH, and the rest. Its very unlikely that people will inject 4-40B into RESX just because this share offering. regards, Votee From my previous post - "This would mean that the 500 shares aren't guaranteed to be sold every day, and would make my "accounting" work a bit harder over the period of time". I've made it more clear in the original post I've lost - if there's not enough buy orders to fulfill at a reasonable price (I'm assuming at least 1.4M ISK), the shares won't be sold. This process would take longer than the initial 9 days I was planning, but shouldn't hurt the shareholders. It's great you're pointing out the capitalization of RESX. I'm not counting on the injection of 40B ISK into RESX, more like 4B, and of course not everything at once. IMHO RESX needs some love, as it's offering a more user-friendly way of trading shares. It's also one of the reasons I've picked RESX for. No, I'm not affiliated in any way with RESX, I just like the way it works and its 0.5% fee, which is pretty reasonable. Also I thought that trading of GAINS shares (which have been performing well) on RESX could help this exchange with gaining more capital and customers. There's an advantage of RESX over EGSE which I particularly like - it's as real time as game mechanics allow. But as there's no support for trading shares in game mechanics it's based on users' trust. Same situation with EGSE. -- [GAINS] Initial investment thread A Diary of The Forge Trader
Benvie	Posted - 2007.02.13 18:03:00 - [45] I you overestimate the demand for shares you'll run into a situation where the price of shares is locked at whatever you're offering them for because there's no demand. Right now I could go and get 2-6 million isk for share. If you go and try and sell thousands of shares at 1.4 mil isk it will be a long time before I will have a chance at selling them for more than 1.39 million per share. Not that I'm planning on selling, but that value does mean something.
Rebuen Gain Gallente Gain's Trading	Posted - 2007.02.13 19:18:00 - [46] Originally by: Benvie I you overestimate the demand for shares you'll run into a situation where the price of shares is locked at whatever you're offering them for because there's no demand. Right now I could go and get 2-6 million isk for share. If you go and try and sell thousands of shares at 1.4 mil isk it will be a long time before I will have a chance at selling them for more than 1.39 million per share. Not that I'm planning on selling, but that value does mean something. I hope that the dividends I'll be paying and the reports I'll be posting will be enough to create the demand for GAINS shares. I'm optimistic about it :) -- [GAINS] Initial investment thread A Diary of The Forge Trader
Benvie	Posted - 2007.02.13 20:09:00 - [47] That may be so, and I definitely think you have done much to prove yourself, but it's definitely no guarantee.
Marie deMedici	Posted - 2007.02.14 18:43:00 - [48] Edited by: Marie deMedici on 14/02/2007 18:43:03 one option would be for you to halt all trading on RESX, then buy back all the current shares at the original price. This would give everyone who sold you their shares back the option to buy the share back at the same price and N shares more for each share at price X which is a discounted listing price. This could be done like within a week or so.First buy in from everyone interested and ask for their interest in subscribing to new shares, then sell back. After this is done the rest of the shares could be sold on RESX like this: 1.publish the fact that N shares will be sold two weeks from now 2.keep trading closed on RESX but take in new buy and sell orders for the next two weeks 3.open trading and fill the top N buy orders.
Rebuen Gain Gallente Gain's Trading	Posted - 2007.02.15 23:42:00 - [49] Dear shareholders, The vote for creating 9000 of GAINS shares has ended. The results I can see in the corporation management panel are: Create 9000 shares: 0% (0.0/0.0) Do not create any shares: 0% (0.0/0.0) Either there has been no interest in voting or it's a bug in the voting system. I'm asking the authorities for an explanation. If any of you have voted, please contact me using Eve-Mail. I'm sorry for any inconvenience this issue might have caused. -- [GAINS] Initial investment thread A Diary of The Forge Trader
Kasia Pelarar	Posted - 2007.02.16 00:23:00 - [50] Originally by: Rebuen Gain Dear shareholders, The vote for creating 9000 of GAINS shares has ended. The results I can see in the corporation management panel are: Create 9000 shares: 0% (0.0/0.0) Do not create any shares: 0% (0.0/0.0) Either there has been no interest in voting or it's a bug in the voting system. I'm asking the authorities for an explanation. If any of you have voted, please contact me using Eve-Mail. I'm sorry for any inconvenience this issue might have caused. I was about to reply that I think it can take a while for the results to come through, when the results came through; Create 9000 shares 15.4394299287 % (6.5/42.1) Do not create any shares 84.5605700713 % (35.6/42.1) So, not sure what is going to happen now. Eve Share & Market Reporting (ESMaR)
Rebuen Gain Gallente Gain's Trading	Posted - 2007.02.16 01:08:00 - [51] Thanks Kasia. The results haven't yet came when I was posting, even though the vote has shown as closed. The figures you've posted are the same I see now. According to the shareholders' vote, GAINS is not going issue 9000 shares. Gain's Trading will continue to retain its earnings, while delivering a minimal regular weekly dividend to the shareholders. The guaranteed weekly dividend has been raised from 50,000 ISK per share to 75,000 ISK per share. Thanks for voting. The report that will be posted on Saturday will show another milestone that GAINS has recently reached :) -- [GAINS] Initial investment thread A Diary of The Forge Trader
Trotski II Rasta Tropical Club	Posted - 2007.02.16 01:45:00 - [52] I have none of Gains shares. If i had jumped in the IPO i would also prefer to not be issued any further shares no matter the price. Why not keep the "genius slave" working for only us? Even with only 25% retained earnings the capital will have a nice exponencialy growth rate. If shareholders want to keep the "cash cow" going by not issuing more shares why not just stop paying dividends for a while and all the profits are retained to increase capital? After a while the capitalization will be much higher and then the offering of more shares (if still there¦s need or desire) can be made at much higher price then initial IPO with the assets to backup this and not only the expectations based on past performance. I also think the only and last decision on if you issue more shares or no should be yours and only yours. With the performance that you provide there is little that people can complain with. I also really hope that you started this with a role playing intention because a skilled and sharp economist like you shouldn¦t have had any trouble raising the 500 million.
Benvie	Posted - 2007.02.16 01:56:00 - [53] There are other options available as well, such as issuing a share split and selling off some of the corp owned shares. Or some of the other ideas posted previously in this thread.
Rebuen Gain Gallente Gain's Trading	Posted - 2007.02.17 00:48:00 - [54] After the sixth week of Gain's Trading activity, a dividend of 75 million ISK has been paid. I'm proud to announce that the GAINS capital has quadrupled during a period of six weeks. Dividend Total dividend paid to date: 475,000,000 ISK Last week's dividend: 75,000,000 ISK Last week's dividend/share: 75,000 ISK Total dividend/share: 475,000 ISK (47.5% of value) Capital (snapshot @ 2007-02-17 00:30) Corporation wallet balance: 499,259,649 ISK Total ISK in Escrow (buying, approx.): 987,996,875 ISK Total ISK in Market (selling, approx.): 670,504,977 ISK TOTAL (approx.): 2,157,761,501 ISK (+37.0% since last week, +331.6% since start) The approximate values are the values of items, which vary with time and location. -- [GAINS] Initial investment thread A Diary of The Forge Trader
Mona Lou Caldari	Posted - 2007.02.17 10:57:00 - [55] Awesome!
Rebuen Gain Gallente Gain's Trading	Posted - 2007.02.24 01:58:00 - [56] After the seventh week of Gain's Trading activity, a dividend of 75 million ISK has been paid. A purchase of a Charon freighter, Caldari Freighter and Advanced Spaceship Command skill books has been made. Due to this (actual expenses for running the corporation), the summary will not be posted this week, and a more proper accounting will be introduced next week. -- [GAINS] Initial investment thread A Diary of The Forge Trader
Marie deMedici	Posted - 2007.02.26 04:02:00 - [57] btw. if you still want to make more shares available how about: -make a new company with alt for example GAINS2 -make the sole purpose of the company to exchange 1 GAINS share for N of its own (5 for example) and pay out the dividend it gets from the gains shares to its shareholders. -list this company in the same exchanges as gains
Kasia Pelarar	Posted - 2007.03.03 13:34:00 - [58] Gains Trading has suddenly liquidated Rebuen, I hope everything is okay, and that you will be back with another marvellous investment opportunity. The final dividends, and liquidation payment, were (as reported on ESMaR); 1,012,402.31 ISK per share A total of 600,000 ISK dividends per share were paid over the life of the corporation. Making a total return of 1,612,402.31 ISK per 1,000,000 ISK share. Thinks that means it was not a scam Eve Share & Market Reporting (ESMaR) & Eve Share & Market Analysis (ESMAn)
Marie deMedici	Posted - 2007.03.03 14:32:00 - [59] yeah. gains was a nice investment. Hope to hear from your next IPO soon.
Votee	Posted - 2007.03.03 16:28:00 - [60] Edited by: Votee on 03/03/2007 16:25:35 The operation obviously wasnt a scam, but the liquidation is more than suspicious. During the liquidation Rebuen practically paid out the original share price - 1M. But the last published numbers show that at the end of week six, NAV was 2,157,761 for every share. Which mean about 1,15M per share wasnt paid out and either in the company or missing. And if we consider that at week seven there was no published results, but the company operated and week eight ended today, and there was no sign of problem till the liquidation, then we can assume - based on previous weeks results -, that the company NW was about 2.5-3B. Its 2.5-3M NAV per share, but only 1M was paid. Where is the rest of the money? regards, Votee

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