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Rebuen Gain
Gallente
Gain's Trading
   |
Posted - 2007.01.13 00:43:00 -
[1]
After the first week of Gain's Trading activity, a dividend of 50 million ISK has been paid, as planned.
Shares
Total shares: 1000
Shares owned by [GAINS]: 25.1% (251 shares)
Shares owned by Rebuen Gain: 25.0% (250 shares)
Shares sold to public: 49.9% (499 shares)
IPO share price: 1,000,000 ISK
Starting capital: 499,000,000 ISK
Dividend
Total dividend paid to date: 50,000,000 ISK
Last week's dividend: 50,000,000 ISK
Last week's dividend/share: 50,000 ISK
Capital (snapshot @ 2007-01-13 00:30)
Corporation wallet balance: 270,493,888 ISK
Total ISK in Escrow (buying, approx.): 257,560,000 ISK
Total ISK in Market (selling, approx.): 10,790,000 ISK
Value of assets (approx.): 56,700,000 ISK
TOTAL (approx.): 595,543,888 ISK (+19.1% since last week)
The approximate values are the values of items, which vary with time and location
--
[GAINS] Initial investment thread
A Diary of The Forge Trader |
Mular Sumnar
Gallente
Espire
|
Posted - 2007.01.13 11:19:00 -
[2]
Nice start to your company Rebuen!! Keep it up =)
Mular
|
Rebuen Gain
Gallente
Gain's Trading
|
Posted - 2007.01.19 20:50:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Rebuen Gain on 19/01/2007 20:46:44
After the second week of Gain's Trading activity, a dividend of 60 million ISK has been paid.
Dividend
Total dividend paid to date: 110,000,000 ISK
Last week's dividend: 60,000,000 ISK
Last week's dividend/share: 60,000 ISK
Total dividend/share: 110,000 ISK (11% of value)
Capital (snapshot @ 2007-01-19 20:40)
Corporation wallet balance: 136,061,921 ISK
Total ISK in Escrow (buying, approx.): 394,235,941 ISK
Total ISK in Market (selling, approx.): 262,228,400 ISK
Value of assets (approx.): 21,100,000 ISK
TOTAL (approx.): 813,626,262 ISK (+36.6% since last week, +62.7% since start)
The approximate values are the values of items, which vary with time and location.
--
[GAINS] Initial investment thread
A Diary of The Forge Trader |
David H'Levi
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2007.01.19 22:47:00 -
[4]
Looks like I missed this boat.
If I start screaming Ponzi loud enough, do you think someone would sell me his shares...? 
We Recruit! |
Rebuen Gain
Gallente
Gain's Trading
|
Posted - 2007.01.20 01:34:00 -
[5]
 Originally by: David H'Levi
Looks like I missed this boat.
If I start screaming Ponzi loud enough, do you think someone would sell me his shares...?
You might try asking the shareholders that have decided to share their identities with the rest of doubtful forums: Linkage.
--
[GAINS] Initial investment thread
A Diary of The Forge Trader |
Mular Sumnar
Gallente
Espire
|
Posted - 2007.01.21 00:48:00 -
[6]
11% in 2 weeks, Awesome job Rebuen!!
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Sophie Marceaux
Akhetaten
|
Posted - 2007.01.22 12:43:00 -
[7]
Excellent work Rebuen 
I am hopeful that GAINS will prove to be as sucessful as 'Everyshore Investments', which if I remember correctly have so far provided the best return on investment of any fully public IPO launched.... shares of which I also purchased at launch \0/
Looking forward to Rebuens next update 
Sophie
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Lord Five
|
Posted - 2007.01.25 20:03:00 -
[8]
Nice start mate, keep up the good work.
PS: He has not yet started trading with big toys guys  , hold on to this guy hes worth it
[/url]
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Rebuen Gain
Gallente
Gain's Trading
|
Posted - 2007.01.25 21:46:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Rebuen Gain on 25/01/2007 21:44:04
Thanks Lord, but please don't put me into the same league as the real hardcore traders that live in this forums :). I'm just doing my best to keep the promises I've made to my investors.
Oh, I've just broken 1 billion ISK barrier today. A bonus dividend of 50M ISK has been paid :). This one goes from my personal wallet as a "thank you" to the initial investors - you've made it possible!
Saturday dividend will be paid as planned.
--
[GAINS] Initial investment thread
A Diary of The Forge Trader |
Rebuen Gain
Gallente
Gain's Trading
|
Posted - 2007.01.26 21:03:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Rebuen Gain on 26/01/2007 21:00:51
After the third week of Gain's Trading activity, a dividend of 140 million ISK has been paid.
Dividend
Total dividend paid to date: 250,000,000 ISK
Last week's dividend: 140,000,000 ISK
Last week's dividend/share: 140,000 ISK
Total dividend/share: 250,000 ISK (25% of value)
Capital (snapshot @ 2007-01-26 20:50)
Corporation wallet balance: 141,572,051 ISK
Total ISK in Escrow (buying, approx.): 86,062,500 ISK
Total ISK in Market (selling, approx.): 944,094,168 ISK
Value of assets (approx.): 3,360,000 ISK
TOTAL (approx.): 1,175,088,719 ISK (+44.4% since last week, +135.0% since start)
The approximate values are the values of items, which vary with time and location.
--
[GAINS] Initial investment thread
A Diary of The Forge Trader |
Robacz
Gallente
|
Posted - 2007.01.26 21:06:00 -
[11]
Great job.
___________
Buying/Selling: Implants & Hardwirings
Producing/BPCs: Mining Barges, BCs, Cruisers |
Braendig
|
Posted - 2007.01.26 22:46:00 -
[12]
Phenomenal job. You're rivaling Proton. :)
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Mular Sumnar
Gallente
Espire
|
Posted - 2007.01.27 19:56:00 -
[13]
Love to see the ISK rolling in. Great Job =)
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Rebuen Gain
Gallente
Gain's Trading
|
Posted - 2007.01.29 14:56:00 -
[14]
Due to RL issues I have to suspend operations this week. A guaranteed dividend of 50M (5%) will be paid this Saturday.
The operation will be resumed on February 5th, together with share buyback.
Please note this does not affect the reliability of the investment that the initial shareholders have made.
--
[GAINS] Initial investment thread
A Diary of The Forge Trader |
Rebuen Gain
Gallente
Gain's Trading
|
Posted - 2007.02.03 23:55:00 -
[15]
After the fourth week of Gain's Trading activity, a dividend of 50 million ISK has been paid.
Dividend
Total dividend paid to date: 300,000,000 ISK
Last week's dividend: 50,000,000 ISK
Last week's dividend/share: 50,000 ISK
Total dividend/share: 300,000 ISK (30% of value)
Capital (snapshot @ 2007-02-03 23:50)
Corporation wallet balance: 1,203,425,425 ISK
Total ISK in Market (selling, approx.): 10,202,687 ISK
TOTAL (approx.): 1,213,628,112 ISK (+3.3% since last week, +142.7% since start)
The approximate values are the values of items, which vary with time and location.
Gains Trading will resume normal operation on Monday.
--
[GAINS] Initial investment thread
A Diary of The Forge Trader |
Rebuen Gain
Gallente
Gain's Trading
|
Posted - 2007.02.04 21:13:00 -
[16]
Gain's Trading has made it to RESX
I've placed the first buy order, as promised - 20 shares for 1.2M ISK each (20% instant profit).
Have fun!
GAINS on RESX
--
[GAINS] Initial investment thread
A Diary of The Forge Trader |
Ray McCormack
BIG
|
Posted - 2007.02.04 22:30:00 -
[17]
Any relation to the Herbalife magnate?
| How To Afford A Tech II BPO | the all mighty BIG industrial corp from hell with a slong the size of a walrus. |
Rebuen Gain
Gallente
Gain's Trading
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 12:11:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Rebuen Gain on 10/02/2007 12:08:42
After the fifth week of Gain's Trading activity, a dividend of 100 million ISK has been paid.
Dividend
Total dividend paid to date: 400,000,000 ISK
Last week's dividend: 100,000,000 ISK
Last week's dividend/share: 100,000 ISK
Total dividend/share: 400,000 ISK (40% of value)
Capital (snapshot @ 2007-02-10 12:00)
Corporation wallet balance: 653,400,200 ISK
Total ISK in Escrow (buying, approx.): 532,462,500 ISK
Total ISK in Market (selling, approx.): 214,039,622 ISK
TOTAL (approx.): 1,578,802,322 ISK (+30.1% since last week, +215.8% since start)
The approximate values are the values of items, which vary with time and location.
EDIT: formatting
--
[GAINS] Initial investment thread
A Diary of The Forge Trader |
Robacz
Gallente
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 14:55:00 -
[19]
Very nice, thanks!
_________
Buying/Selling: Implants & Hardwirings
Producing/BPCs: Mining Barges, T2 Components
T2 Distribution: 8 regions covered |
Mular Sumnar
Gallente
Espire
|
Posted - 2007.02.10 16:17:00 -
[20]
Another great week =)
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Rebuen Gain
Gallente
Gain's Trading
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 23:30:00 -
[21]
It's been a week since GAINS is publically traded on RESX. A quick glance at the current situation of the shares and their history shows that there's been much interest in obtaining the GAINS shares, but no interest in selling them at all. A couple of CEOs of other corporations, and also independent investors, have contacted me asking if there's going to be another issue of GAINS shares. According to my initial plan, I told them that I'll be personally buying back the GAINS shares and will be gradually making my operation private.
It seems that the success Gain's Trading has achieved is surprising even for me, the only person responsible for operating the corporation. I couldn't buy back any shares, even though I've placed a buy offer on RESX and tried to outbid the persons who managed to outbid my offer. That, and a conversation I've had recently, has pushed me into another direction.
Dear shareholders, investors, and business opportunity seekers, I would like to create another 9000 shares of Gain's Trading, 4500 of which would be supposed to be sold to public. GAINS would keep 4500 shares, totaling 4751 shares, Rebuen Gain (me) would keep 250 currently owned shares. The shares would be sold via RESX in batches of 500 per day over the period of 9 days to allow shareholder diversification (I don't want the shares to go to one rich investor).
GAINS and Rebuen Gain would keep over 50% of the shares to maintain control over the corporation and protect the corporation from a takeover. Also, all personal assets of Rebuen Gain (except these essential for the operation) would be transferred to another character, making Rebuen Gain a representative of the corporation only. This would allow for complete protection of all assets in an unlikely event of takeover. My personal salary mechanisms would still work because of transfering all the shares to my main character.
GAINS would continue its trading operation as usual, expanding its main area of operation to regions other than The Forge (but still in the Empire). The dividends would be kept at guaranteed 50,000 ISK every week. For maximum security, a dedicated character will be created for hauling, whose identity will not be disclosed. The character will be kept in an NPC corporation to protect from empire piracy.
Because of scaling the operation, reporting and discussion would be moved to Wordpress site.
Current shareholders have been just asked to vote.
Timeline of share issue:
2007.02.12 (Monday) - this announcement and shareholder vote start
2007.02.16 (Friday) - shareholder vote end
2007.02.17 (Saturday) - eventual share issue start
2007.02.25 (Sunday) - eventual share issue end
I would like to hear your opinions now.
--
[GAINS] Initial investment thread
A Diary of The Forge Trader |
Rebuen Gain
Gallente
Gain's Trading
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 23:39:00 -
[22]
One more important thing, which deserves a separate post.
I would be selling the shares in batches of 500 by fulfilling active buy orders on RESX.
This means that the price you want to pay for every share is decided by the investors. I won't be selling shares at a fixed price. It may be something new to everyone, maybe I will start a trend :).
--
[GAINS] Initial investment thread
A Diary of The Forge Trader |
c1iche
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 23:44:00 -
[23]
I've been very pleased with the performance of GAINS shares; which I note are presently trading at 8M isk each!
However I'm not sure a share issue can in any way be beneficial to the present share holders - it will dilute the value of existing shares (potentially tenfold!). And as anyone who has tried EVE trading will probably agree, it becomes increasingly difficult to make the same percentage profit as your bankroll increases.
So I vote no on this issue.
nb if it were to go ahead; it would seem the only way to avoid an immediate dilution would be to price the new shares at the present 8M...
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Rebuen Gain
Gallente
Gain's Trading
|
Posted - 2007.02.11 23:51:00 -
[24]
Originally by: c1iche
I've been very pleased with the performance of GAINS shares; which I note are presently trading at 8M isk each!
However I'm not sure a share issue can in any way be beneficial to the present share holders - it will dilute the value of existing shares (potentially tenfold!). And as anyone who has tried EVE trading will probably agree, it becomes increasingly difficult to make the same percentage profit as your bankroll increases.
So I vote no on this issue.
nb if it were to go ahead; it would seem the only way to avoid an immediate dilution would be to price the new shares at the present 8M...
c1iche, the dilution would not actually happen. The value of shares in EVE is represented by the dividend they bring. The dividend I will be paying out will be 50,000 ISK per share - same as for initial shareholders who bought shares for 1M ISK per share. The only change in the dividends I'm paying is - paying out more dividend. To satisfy 50,000 ISK per share I have to pay 50M ISK per week (with 1,000 shares). Simple math - with 10,000 shares I will have to pay 500M ISK per week.
The catch here is - the RESX market will tell the real value of GAINS shares - they are really worth as much as people are willing to pay. My bet is - the price of GAINS shares (represented by buy orders) will be higher than at the IPO, therefore current shareholders will get an opportunity to sell their shares if they feel they're losing value. I think it's a fair deal.
It's up to the shareholders to decide whether they trust I could make 500M ISK each week or not.
--
[GAINS] Initial investment thread
A Diary of The Forge Trader |
Braendig
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Posted - 2007.02.11 23:54:00 -
[25]
For the reasons mentioned above, I, too, will be voting "No" with my shares.
In the event that this diversification does occur, I expect I will be selling my position in the company as the percentage return will be significantly reduced.
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c1iche
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Posted - 2007.02.12 00:04:00 -
[26]
Sadly the way creating extra shares works in EVE works is different to the real world as far as I can tell.
Imagine I own 100 shares of a total of 1000 - ie 10% of the company
Real world - you wish to increase to 10000; you would split the shares 10:1. At the end of this I would own 1000 shares (still 10%)
EVE - the extra 9000 shares are created from nowhere and I continue to own only 100 shares - ie 1%
The present value of Gain's Trading consists of more than its ISK and assets; it includes the time and effort people perceive will be put into it by yourself (a wholly imaginary, but calculable number).
The total value can be roughly taken to be the number of shares - 1000 - multiplied by the price they are trading at (8M). So GAINS is presently perceived to be worth 8 billion; of which only 1.5 billion appears to be hard assets (whether that's an over-value is up to the users of RESX to decide).
By satisfying demand with extra shares created, the value of GAINS shares /will/ drop - it's simple supply/demand. The extra capital generated by the share issue can only make up for the drop if you price these new shares sufficiently high - hence my 8M comment above. If prices drop, the current shareholders lose out.
The other way you could do this would be to treat it as a real-life share split. I'm not sure it's possible in-game, but you would have to give every current shareholder 9 new shares for every share they currently hold. This would leave the corp with 2510, and you with 2500. However, selling these new shares would leave you vulnerable.
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Dark Shikari
Caldari
Imperium Technologies
Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.02.12 00:16:00 -
[27]
I will only support a share issue if the shares are sold at reasonably above IPO price, like EMFI did.
Penalizing current shareholders is bad IMO.
-[23] Member-
EVE-Trance Radio! (DSTrance channel ingame) |
Rebuen Gain
Gallente
Gain's Trading
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 00:23:00 -
[28]
TBH, the 8M ISK is fiction. Look at the volume of the trade - 3 shares, 7 waiting to be bough. That does not mean anything, except someone really wants to get GAINS shares. The value of GAINS in hard assets is about 1.5 billion, like you've said.
Of course, owning 10% of GAINS is not the same as owning 1% of it, and I too regret splits can't be made with the shares, and the stockmarket in EVE being next to inexistent. But the differences that EVE stockmarket has, when compared to RL stockmarket, open a whole new window of opportunity, which I would like to leverage.
My calculation - the value of shares currently owned by the shareholders (according to asset / share calculcation) is about 1.5M ISK. There's been already 400k ISK paid in dividends (per share, not counting my personal dividend I've paid). This totals to 1.9M ISK of value per share (roughly). With this assumption, creating and selling 4500 shares should bring 8.55 billion ISK. add this to 1.5 billion, and you get 10 billion ISK. So, there would be 1M of assets per each share. That's a bit lower than right now, I agree, but note that it also allows for greater diversification of trade and potential returns.
In summary - current shareholder would still hold 1M ISK (asset/share) in shares plus 400k ISK (dividend paid) per each share. The new shareholders would get an opportunity to get the dividend as I would be paying it out after the share issue, and would open another opportunity to current shareholders to purchase more shares.
Of course it's up to investors to decide about the share issue, I won't be participating in this vote.
--
[GAINS] Initial investment thread
A Diary of The Forge Trader |
Rebuen Gain
Gallente
Gain's Trading
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 00:27:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Dark Shikari
I will only support a share issue if the shares are sold at reasonably above IPO price, like EMFI did.
Penalizing current shareholders is bad IMO.
c1iche has calculated the GAINS share value to be at about 5.8M, when compared to performance of other corporations, but I can't guarantee any price. The price would be set by the RESX stock market and the buy orders that would be placed there - a thing that I don't have control over.
I guess if you're still undecided - wait for a while and see what will be going on on the RESX, and decide on Thursday.
--
[GAINS] Initial investment thread
A Diary of The Forge Trader |
Benvie
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 00:51:00 -
[30]
In its current state I'm leaning towards voting no. Fact is that the value of the shares will be diluted because their availability will be vastly increased. If there was a way to factor this in, such as the aforementioned share split, to retain the percent ownership of the corp, that would be acceptable. Without retaining equal percent ownership it will in no way be beneficial to current owners.
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Rebuen Gain
Gallente
Gain's Trading
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 00:57:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Votee
Other thing you seems to not realise that you will have diminishing percentage gains as you grow bigger. There is no way for example that you can make 30% profit in a week on 10 or 20B.
Votee, I do realize that :). It's not my first day on the market - it's easier to make 100% when you don't have much, but takes a lot of wit when you have a lot. The 500M per week figure seems realistic to me, assuming I would have 5 billion ISK capital at my disposal. Look - if I've managed to earn 365M ISK last week, when I had 1.3B capital, I should be able to earn the same amount when I have 5.0B capital.
So far I don't feel I've reached the point where I'm limited by the market itself, I'm mainly limited by the capital I own. By the way - the 500M ISK dividend would bring back 250M to the corporation itself. As you've noticed I'm already exceeding 250M profit per week, so I guess my promises aren't void :)
Thanks for the great discussion to everyone interested!
--
[GAINS] Initial investment thread
A Diary of The Forge Trader |
Dark Shikari
Caldari
Imperium Technologies
Firmus Ixion
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 00:58:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Rebuen Gain
Originally by: Dark Shikari
I will only support a share issue if the shares are sold at reasonably above IPO price, like EMFI did.
Penalizing current shareholders is bad IMO.
c1iche has calculated the GAINS share value to be at about 5.8M, when compared to performance of other corporations, but I can't guarantee any price. The price would be set by the RESX stock market and the buy orders that would be placed there - a thing that I don't have control over.
I guess if you're still undecided - wait for a while and see what will be going on on the RESX, and decide on Thursday.
I'd say you should have a smaller share issue first, and slowly scale up, rather than a massive increase in value.
-[23] Member-
EVE-Trance Radio! (DSTrance channel ingame) |
Rebuen Gain
Gallente
Gain's Trading
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 01:07:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Dark Shikari
I'd say you should have a smaller share issue first, and slowly scale up, rather than a massive increase in value.
You have a point here. I was afraid that a tenfold increase in share volume won't be acceptable. Anyway - the vote is still on, no matter what the result be, GAINS will be paying out the dividend as usual. Well, maybe "the more, the merrier" saying won't work here ;)
--
[GAINS] Initial investment thread
A Diary of The Forge Trader |
Votee
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 01:18:00 -
[34]
Of course you can make 500M weekly with 5B capital, the debate is not about that.
I try to put it an other way.
Right now there are 1000 shares, and you made 365M in last week, thats 365K return in a week on every share which costed 1M originally, so 36,5% return in one week, which is fvcking damn good. And the projected one year profit per share is about 19M.
If you issue the shares and the company will have 10K shares and make - lets make a generous assumption here - 1B weekly, thats 100K return in a week. Which is 10%, which is still awesome, but nowhere near the original 36,5% return.
Projected one year profit per share is about 5.2M.
regards,
Votee
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Rebuen Gain
Gallente
Gain's Trading
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 01:32:00 -
[35]
That's a valid point, Votee, but also note - everything depends on your definition of corporation's performance. If you're interested in 365M growth last week, then great, I appreciate your best wishes for growth of GAINS. On the other hand, if the definition of performance is tied to the value of dividend that's paid out - we have a completely different math.
I'm not paying out all of the profit as dividend on purpose. I want to accumulate capital for scaling out the operation. The plan I've made is a weekly 5% return on initial share value, and so far I've been able to keep and exceed it. It means I'm bound to pay out 50,000 ISK per share per week, and I will be paying that much, maybe sometimes a bit more, until I accumulate enough capital for scaling out. The share issue is about getting this capital faster, and as a result - to bring more return per share faster. As I've said - it would be up to the traders to decide how much are they willing to pay per share.
I totally agree with your point and I hope you also see my point now. The debate is still on, and I guess it will be till Friday. On Saturday there's a report to be posted, so I guess I'll be going back to trading.
Cheers!
--
[GAINS] Initial investment thread
A Diary of The Forge Trader |
Votee
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 01:51:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Votee on 12/02/2007 01:48:45
Yeah, you dont plan to dividend out all the profit, thats ok, but it doesnt change the share valuation much. If you, for example earn 100M, then its either dividended out, or retained. In the first case investors get ISK, in the latter they get company value increase. And the two are the same amount.
Retaining is even better in the long term, because it increase the projected income, because more capital to invest, more return - hopefully :-), and increase the future dividend as well.
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Rebuen Gain
Gallente
Gain's Trading
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 02:00:00 -
[37]
Hey Votee, I see I will have to learn some stuff (the category name rocks btw) anyway, to satisfy all the traditionalists here  . Thanks for making me read this, after all I don't have anything more interesting to do  .
--
[GAINS] Initial investment thread
A Diary of The Forge Trader |
Benvie
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 03:36:00 -
[38]
I guess my biggest issue is that I originally paid for X% of the corp. That X% is represented by shares, but it's the important part is not the number of shares but the percentage of the company. With the release of shares I retain the same number of shares but my percentage drastically decreases.
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Robacz
Gallente
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 08:57:00 -
[39]
Votes Yes. More ISK for Gain = more profitsssss for me!
_________
Buying/Selling: Implants & Hardwirings
Producing/BPCs: Mining Barges, T2 Components
T2 Distribution: 8 regions covered |
c1iche
|
Posted - 2007.02.12 22:52:00 -
[40]
I was thinking about the way this problem is solved in the Real World.
When a company wishes to create new shares 'out of thin air' (as in the EVE system) there is a 'rights issue' (I believe this is compulsory by law).
In this case, the company gives existing shareholders the right (hence the name) to buy enough of the new shares to maintain their present percentage ownership of the company. These are sold at a discount. Remaining shares (if existing shareholders choose not to exercise their rights) can be sold at full price to the general public.
So if a company has 1000 shares and wishes to create an extra 500; it offers discounted shares to current shareholders at a rate of 1 new share for every 2 they presently own. Those who take up their 'right' will continue to own the same proportion of the company that they did at the start. If they do not wish to use their right; they can (in the real world at least) sell it on to allow someone else to buy shares at discount.
I'm not sure how best to achieve this in EVE. Either by using the initial subscriber list to offer first refusal on new shares (you can say that shares were initially sold 'cum rights' and have since been transferred 'ex rights', or even track down the current shareholders). Or by simply representing the value of the rights as an extra dividend given out just before the new shares are created.
Either way I think there would have to be a fixed selling price for the new shares - not simply 'whatever the highest buy order is at the time' which will almost certainly cause the prices to drop immensely. The exact number can be subject to much conjecture and debate but the only objective value I have seen so far (my own included) is the value at which we have seen shares sold on RESX already (admittedly only 3 of them).
The above conditions represent the best way I can think of to generate more capital for GAINS (a good thing) without damaging the investment of present shareholders - evidenced by its use in the Real World.
And, as has been stated above, a 10:1 issue is far too potentially disruptive at present.
So at present I continue to agree with what appears to be the prevailing opinion: no to the issue.
ps - Robacz: more isk for GAINS is only guaranteed to mean more isk for you if your stake in GAINS remains proportionally identical. The issue as Rebuen has described it means nothing of the sort, and could easily see what has so far been a nearly 300% profit over 5 weeks (capital and dividends paid so far) turn into the 5% per week Rebuen has stated as his minimum aim (which I have no doubts he could achieve)
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Rebuen Gain
Gallente
Gain's Trading
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Posted - 2007.02.13 01:00:00 -
[41]
Darn, I was typing for so long, that my browser session has expired and I've lost my post... This time I'll make it short.
c1iche, thanks for your informative post - I will make use of your suggestion in case this vote will decide not to create the shares.
If the shareholders decide to create another 9000 shares - I'm going to make sure the 4500 shares that would be sold to public bring as much capital as possible, by using all the mechanics RESX allows. This would mean that the 500 shares aren't guaranteed to be sold every day, and would make my "accounting" work a bit harder over the period of time.
Too bad EVE stockmarket mechanics are so simplified. Personally I regret that there's no in-game mechanic to trade shares as a "commodity", and there's no central stock exchange. But luckily RESX and EGSE fill the gap perfectly.
I've just took a look at RESX and can see there are buy orders for 110 GAINS shares, which would bring 220M ISK. That's only 22% of what was supposed to be sold in a single day of 9-day period of share issue. On the other hand it's nice to see that GAINS shares are being priced at over 200% of their initial value :)
Also - about this whole debate. It's great to see that the doubts the investors are having are about the percentage of the corporation which they own, not about my ability to trade. It's a nice change :)
Regards
--
[GAINS] Initial investment thread
A Diary of The Forge Trader |
Votee
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Posted - 2007.02.13 01:10:00 -
[42]
What if there wont be enough buy orders in RESX to sell the daily 500 shares?
What happen then?
At what price the remaining shares will be sold?
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Benvie
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Posted - 2007.02.13 01:37:00 -
[43]
I am enjoying this debate as well. I'm not against the idea of GAINS expanding in some way or another, I just want my good judgment in buying shares in the IPO to pay off for me. I had a good feeling about you and I'm glad to see it wasn't misplaced.
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Rebuen Gain
Gallente
Gain's Trading
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Posted - 2007.02.13 08:57:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Votee
Edited by: Votee on 13/02/2007 01:14:13
What if there wont be enough buy orders in RESX to sell the daily 500 shares?
What happen then?
At what price the remaining shares will be sold?
Edit:Its very likely that they wont be sold out throught RESX, because right now the whole capitalization of RESX is about 2B-2.5B, consisting 850m ISK, 500m worth of ISSO shares - which are absolutely dead weight right now - 450m worth of AMESH, and the rest.
Its very unlikely that people will inject 4-40B into RESX just because this share offering.
regards,
Votee
From my previous post - "This would mean that the 500 shares aren't guaranteed to be sold every day, and would make my "accounting" work a bit harder over the period of time". I've made it more clear in the original post I've lost - if there's not enough buy orders to fulfill at a reasonable price (I'm assuming at least 1.4M ISK), the shares won't be sold. This process would take longer than the initial 9 days I was planning, but shouldn't hurt the shareholders.
It's great you're pointing out the capitalization of RESX. I'm not counting on the injection of 40B ISK into RESX, more like 4B, and of course not everything at once. IMHO RESX needs some love, as it's offering a more user-friendly way of trading shares. It's also one of the reasons I've picked RESX for. No, I'm not affiliated in any way with RESX, I just like the way it works and its 0.5% fee, which is pretty reasonable. Also I thought that trading of GAINS shares (which have been performing well) on RESX could help this exchange with gaining more capital and customers. There's an advantage of RESX over EGSE which I particularly like - it's as real time as game mechanics allow. But as there's no support for trading shares in game mechanics it's based on users' trust. Same situation with EGSE.
--
[GAINS] Initial investment thread
A Diary of The Forge Trader |
Benvie
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Posted - 2007.02.13 18:03:00 -
[45]
I you overestimate the demand for shares you'll run into a situation where the price of shares is locked at whatever you're offering them for because there's no demand. Right now I could go and get 2-6 million isk for share. If you go and try and sell thousands of shares at 1.4 mil isk it will be a long time before I will have a chance at selling them for more than 1.39 million per share. Not that I'm planning on selling, but that value does mean something.
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Rebuen Gain
Gallente
Gain's Trading
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Posted - 2007.02.13 19:18:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Benvie
I you overestimate the demand for shares you'll run into a situation where the price of shares is locked at whatever you're offering them for because there's no demand. Right now I could go and get 2-6 million isk for share. If you go and try and sell thousands of shares at 1.4 mil isk it will be a long time before I will have a chance at selling them for more than 1.39 million per share. Not that I'm planning on selling, but that value does mean something.
I hope that the dividends I'll be paying and the reports I'll be posting will be enough to create the demand for GAINS shares. I'm optimistic about it :)
--
[GAINS] Initial investment thread
A Diary of The Forge Trader |
Benvie
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Posted - 2007.02.13 20:09:00 -
[47]
That may be so, and I definitely think you have done much to prove yourself, but it's definitely no guarantee.
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Marie deMedici
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Posted - 2007.02.14 18:43:00 -
[48]
Edited by: Marie deMedici on 14/02/2007 18:43:03
one option would be for you to halt all trading on RESX, then buy back all the current shares at the original price. This would give everyone who sold you their shares back the option to buy the share back at the same price and N shares more for each share at price X which is a discounted listing price.
This could be done like within a week or so.First buy in from everyone interested and ask for their interest in subscribing to new shares, then sell back.
After this is done the rest of the shares could be sold on RESX like this:
1.publish the fact that N shares will be sold two weeks from now
2.keep trading closed on RESX but take in new buy and sell orders for the next two weeks
3.open trading and fill the top N buy orders.
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Rebuen Gain
Gallente
Gain's Trading
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Posted - 2007.02.15 23:42:00 -
[49]
Dear shareholders,
The vote for creating 9000 of GAINS shares has ended. The results I can see in the corporation management panel are:
Create 9000 shares: 0% (0.0/0.0)
Do not create any shares: 0% (0.0/0.0)
Either there has been no interest in voting or it's a bug in the voting system. I'm asking the authorities for an explanation. If any of you have voted, please contact me using Eve-Mail.
I'm sorry for any inconvenience this issue might have caused.
--
[GAINS] Initial investment thread
A Diary of The Forge Trader |
Kasia Pelarar
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Posted - 2007.02.16 00:23:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Rebuen Gain
Dear shareholders,
The vote for creating 9000 of GAINS shares has ended. The results I can see in the corporation management panel are:
Create 9000 shares: 0% (0.0/0.0)
Do not create any shares: 0% (0.0/0.0)
Either there has been no interest in voting or it's a bug in the voting system. I'm asking the authorities for an explanation. If any of you have voted, please contact me using Eve-Mail.
I'm sorry for any inconvenience this issue might have caused.
I was about to reply that I think it can take a while for the results to come through, when the results came through;
Create 9000 shares 15.4394299287 % (6.5/42.1)
Do not create any shares 84.5605700713 % (35.6/42.1)
So, not sure what is going to happen now.
Eve Share & Market Reporting (ESMaR) |
Rebuen Gain
Gallente
Gain's Trading
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Posted - 2007.02.16 01:08:00 -
[51]
Thanks Kasia. The results haven't yet came when I was posting, even though the vote has shown as closed. The figures you've posted are the same I see now.
According to the shareholders' vote, GAINS is not going issue 9000 shares. Gain's Trading will continue to retain its earnings, while delivering a minimal regular weekly dividend to the shareholders. The guaranteed weekly dividend has been raised from 50,000 ISK per share to 75,000 ISK per share.
Thanks for voting.
The report that will be posted on Saturday will show another milestone that GAINS has recently reached :)
--
[GAINS] Initial investment thread
A Diary of The Forge Trader |
Trotski II
Rasta Tropical Club
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Posted - 2007.02.16 01:45:00 -
[52]
I have none of Gains shares. If i had jumped in the IPO i would also prefer to not be issued any further shares no matter the price.
Why not keep the "genius slave" working for only us? Even with only 25% retained earnings the capital will have a nice exponencialy growth rate.
If shareholders want to keep the "cash cow" going by not issuing more shares why not just stop paying dividends for a while and all the profits are retained to increase capital?
After a while the capitalization will be much higher and then the offering of more shares (if still there¦s need or desire) can be made at much higher price then initial IPO with the assets to backup this and not only the expectations based on past performance.
I also think the only and last decision on if you issue more shares or no should be yours and only yours.
With the performance that you provide there is little that people can complain with.
I also really hope that you started this with a role playing intention because a skilled and sharp economist like you shouldn¦t have had any trouble raising the 500 million.
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Benvie
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Posted - 2007.02.16 01:56:00 -
[53]
There are other options available as well, such as issuing a share split and selling off some of the corp owned shares. Or some of the other ideas posted previously in this thread.
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Rebuen Gain
Gallente
Gain's Trading
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Posted - 2007.02.17 00:48:00 -
[54]
After the sixth week of Gain's Trading activity, a dividend of 75 million ISK has been paid.
I'm proud to announce that the GAINS capital has quadrupled during a period of six weeks.
Dividend
Total dividend paid to date: 475,000,000 ISK
Last week's dividend: 75,000,000 ISK
Last week's dividend/share: 75,000 ISK
Total dividend/share: 475,000 ISK (47.5% of value)
Capital (snapshot @ 2007-02-17 00:30)
Corporation wallet balance: 499,259,649 ISK
Total ISK in Escrow (buying, approx.): 987,996,875 ISK
Total ISK in Market (selling, approx.): 670,504,977 ISK
TOTAL (approx.): 2,157,761,501 ISK (+37.0% since last week, +331.6% since start)
The approximate values are the values of items, which vary with time and location.
--
[GAINS] Initial investment thread
A Diary of The Forge Trader |
Mona Lou
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.02.17 10:57:00 -
[55]
 Awesome!
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Rebuen Gain
Gallente
Gain's Trading
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Posted - 2007.02.24 01:58:00 -
[56]
After the seventh week of Gain's Trading activity, a dividend of 75 million ISK has been paid.
A purchase of a Charon freighter, Caldari Freighter and Advanced Spaceship Command skill books has been made. Due to this (actual expenses for running the corporation), the summary will not be posted this week, and a more proper accounting will be introduced next week.
--
[GAINS] Initial investment thread
A Diary of The Forge Trader |
Marie deMedici
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Posted - 2007.02.26 04:02:00 -
[57]
btw. if you still want to make more shares available how about:
-make a new company with alt for example GAINS2
-make the sole purpose of the company to exchange 1 GAINS share for N of its own (5 for example) and pay out the dividend it gets from the gains shares to its shareholders.
-list this company in the same exchanges as gains
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Kasia Pelarar
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Posted - 2007.03.03 13:34:00 -
[58]
Gains Trading has suddenly liquidated
Rebuen, I hope everything is okay, and that you will be back with another marvellous investment opportunity.
The final dividends, and liquidation payment, were (as reported on ESMaR);
1,012,402.31 ISK per share
A total of 600,000 ISK dividends per share were paid over the life of the corporation.
Making a total return of 1,612,402.31 ISK per 1,000,000 ISK share.
Thinks that means it was not a scam
Eve Share & Market Reporting (ESMaR)
&
Eve Share & Market Analysis (ESMAn) |
Marie deMedici
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Posted - 2007.03.03 14:32:00 -
[59]
yeah. gains was a nice investment. Hope to hear from your next IPO soon.
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Votee
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Posted - 2007.03.03 16:28:00 -
[60]
Edited by: Votee on 03/03/2007 16:25:35
The operation obviously wasnt a scam, but the liquidation is more than suspicious.
During the liquidation Rebuen practically paid out the original share price - 1M.
But the last published numbers show that at the end of week six, NAV was 2,157,761 for every share. Which mean about 1,15M per share wasnt paid out and either in the company or missing.
And if we consider that at week seven there was no published results, but the company operated and week eight ended today, and there was no sign of problem till the liquidation, then we can assume - based on previous weeks results -, that the company NW was about 2.5-3B.
Its 2.5-3M NAV per share, but only 1M was paid.
Where is the rest of the money?
regards,
Votee
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Cerwyn Taraman
Minmatar
Phoenix Tech Industries
Apoapsis Multiversal Consortium
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Posted - 2007.03.04 07:18:00 -
[61]
Better question, where is Rebuen? I made the mistake of buying into GAINS off of RESX and then getting hit with liquidation a few days later :-/ :-/
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c1iche
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Posted - 2007.03.04 17:57:00 -
[62]
Kasia: I appreciate the amount paid out was > IPO price for the shares, which lends some credence to this not being a scam.
BUT
value paid out at liquidation was 101% of the initial payment (ie 505M)
Corp value at 17-02 was 2157M
Someone has run off with 1.6 billion ISK
I can only assume this is Rebuen
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Jaedar Metron
Deadly Alliance
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Posted - 2007.03.04 21:08:00 -
[63]
Gettin hit by the scamhammer, C1?
I regrettetf not buying any shares in this one until I saw these last posts 
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c1iche
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Posted - 2007.03.04 22:37:00 -
[64]
My hope is that the missing isk is now in a freighter + skillbooks or similar, and Rebuen is setting up a new corp for his planned expansion and will convert our shares.
Sadly the lack of a message from Rebuen is going to lead people to assume the worst.
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Mular Sumnar
Gallente
Espire
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Posted - 2007.03.05 01:07:00 -
[65]
Just hope everything in RL is ok for him.
Hope to hear from you soon Rebuen.
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c1iche
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Posted - 2007.03.05 07:50:00 -
[66]
I wonder... Prof Bunsen appeared on the same weekend Rebuen disappeared.
Related?
(disclaimer: I have given Bunsen some isk)
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Sophie Marceaux
Akhetaten
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Posted - 2007.03.05 08:23:00 -
[67]
Originally by: c1iche
I wonder... Prof Bunsen appeared on the same weekend Rebuen disappeared.
Related?
(disclaimer: I have given Bunsen some isk)
hmmm, I think the 'style' is a little different but you never know.
Also, having checked on this after the liquidation, Rebuens main 'Wolfotron' left his corp 2 weeks ago...
Now, this is from memory as not in-game but I believe 'wolfotron' was the founder and CEO of a 40 man corp and had been in-game for ages..... also, his main 'leaving' 2 weeks before Rebuen seems a risky thing to do regarding raising suspicions - why not just have them both leave on the same day?
I this case, I would suggest scam is unlikely for only a couple of bil. I have a feeling that maybe RL has intervened - in which case I hope everything is ok
Maybe the new CEO of 'Wolfotron's old corp can shed some light?
Sophie
PS I invested in Rebuen right at the start and have done the same with Bunsen.
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Block Ukx
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Posted - 2007.03.05 12:37:00 -
[68]
Votee,
I agree this seems suspicious, and IÆm not taking sides with GAINS. If it was BSAC, I would have paid out NAV, as it is clearly stated in our Certificate of Incorporation.
However, if you read his original [GAINS] Initial investment thread, you will find no liquidation clause. But, it is clearly stated that the ôMaximal buyback price after February 1st: 1,150,000 ISK / share.ö
IÆm trying to be objective here, but in the absence of a liquidation clause, I canÆt find any wrong doing in GAINS liquidation. Any investor expecting more than 1,150,000 per share didnÆt read his IPO thread carefully.
Having people trying to turn this into a scam can only hurt the very few public corps still out there.
Block Ukx
BSAC President
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c1iche
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Posted - 2007.03.05 18:36:00 -
[69]
Surely anyone with serious RL issues would just disappear?
If he had time to pay out final dividends, liquidate the corp, cancel the wordpress account etc, why not enough to jot a quick sentence on the boards?
I agree it's hardly a huge amount to run away with but as a "Recent graduate with a 20M inheritance" it might be a lot to that character? (RP-wise)
Block: Whether this is a proper "scam" or not, it's uncertainty - and that uncertainty will definitely hurt the other public corps.
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Votee
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Posted - 2007.03.07 01:56:00 -
[70]
I strongly disagree that if there is no liquidation clause, then you only have to pay back the original investment amount if you liquidate a company.
As far as I know if you buy an ordinary share - not taking priority or preference shares into account - then you are partially own the company including all assets, debts, cash, everything.
For example if you bought 1% stake, then 1% of the total company value is yours, and it has nothing to do with the original share price or with the price you paid for that stake.
In the case of liquidation, you are still entitled as much percentage of company value as much percentage stake you have in the company.
This is the general rule.
And because there is no mention of liquidation in the original thread, then general rules apply.
In every kind of contract or agreement always the general rules apply, except those thing which are mentioned in the contract.
A contract or an agreement is practically a collection of things where not the general rules apply.
Some more info:
I was online about for an hour just before the payment took place and I was online when the money actually was paid out as well. He just logged in and in a few seconds money started to roll in. I tried to convo him, which he didnt refused, but went offline in about 3 minutes without answering it.
I sent him a mail asking for some info. One and a half day later came the answer that that char is under a new owner, because of RL issues of the original owner, and the original one will never come back.
And if you consider that the freighter alone could be sold for at least 800m in a few minutes, then I am pretty convinced that there was no liquidation whatsoever, rather original share price payback took place. And the excuse of new owner because of RL issues is one of the most used excuse of scammers after scamming.
If you put it all together, it doesnt make any sense, because in a way it was a kind scam, because he didnt paid out everything what the shareholders entitled to, but the other hand all the original investors booked about 60% profit on this venture, only those were screwed who bought at inflated price.
regards,
Votee
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