| Pages: 1 2 :: [one page] |
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Thirlan
   |
Posted - 2007.01.13 05:58:00 -
[1]
Please I beg you lol!
Sneak attacks are almost impossible with people showing up in local. Do something, anything to change this. Make a skill/module that removes you from local or the inverse. Make a skill/module that allows people to DETECT you in local.
The way I see it you shouldn't be visible in local until you talk. I know a lot of you miners are going to flame me to all hell but I'm a miner and I think this is a retarded advantage that probably wasn't implemented to be done in this fashion. If it was... I'm speechless lol
|
Valandril
Caldari
Resurrection
R i s e
|
Posted - 2007.01.13 06:00:00 -
[2]
 Originally by: Thirlan
Please I beg you lol!
Sneak attacks are almost impossible with people showing up in local. Do something, anything to change this. Make a skill/module that removes you from local or the inverse. Make a skill/module that allows people to DETECT you in local.
The way I see it you shouldn't be visible in local until you talk. I know a lot of you miners are going to flame me to all hell but I'm a miner and I think this is a retarded advantage that probably wasn't implemented to be done in this fashion. If it was... I'm speechless lol
I'm not miner, but i don't like the idea, since there is no possbility to totaly shutdown system we need to know should we wonder or no.
-----------------
My english bad, F1, F2, F3, F4...
|
CrestoftheStars
Deviance Inc
SMASH Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.01.13 07:22:00 -
[3]
yer this would be fine, a good idear... the secound they fix the scramblers this should be next... if you can't be detected in local, your scrambler shouldn't be a "forever no escape"...
should just be a time + to the timer that SHOULD have been there instead of alignment teori...
___________________________________________
come on..
stop thinking about YOU.
and start thinking about All of us... how do we get a more fun and enjoyable game for all of us. |
Hypo Psycho
Minmatar
Universal Army
|
Posted - 2007.01.13 10:02:00 -
[4]
im not a miner and i dont like the idea.
it ammuses me the way that players whine about carebears, without those carebears eve would not exist.
no mining = no minerals = no production = no ships/modules
every single pirate or PvPer out there relies on carebears for ammo ships and fittings without them you would all be flying around in newb ships so maybe.
so maybe a little consideration should be given to those players
and until you start flying newbs ships stop making there life hard.
"see you on the other side"
|
shady trader
|
Posted - 2007.01.13 13:51:00 -
[5]
I am personally not in favour of this idea. As a miner (based in empire) always try and track how is in the system to protect both my ships and ore. At the moment local is the only way some one in a barge has to know then to get out of the belts.
If local is removed it needs replacing with something that will work to protect miners but also stop you knowing who is in the system and hiding.
Some sort of scanner that runs constantly listing ship types in range (several AU) and moving (allowing people to hide),with owners against ships you have encountered them upclose (for that specific hull based on database id) in the past say the same grid. With coloured tags based on standings for id'ed ships. Similar to the system scanner that we have know but fully automated but only work then not warping to stop people setting up safe stops to travel between scanning the whole system.
|
Nian Banks
|
Posted - 2007.01.13 14:24:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Nian Banks on 13/01/2007 14:22:17
To be honest, The way people use local to see if its safe makes is probably a bad idea in reality (eve reality), if your a pirate you don't want people know who you are and that your in the system, your hiding.
Perhaps if we replace the way local shows all players to just those who you have seen speek in local, then add a simple bit of text in the system text you see on the top left of your screen, having it say "There are 16 Players in this system".
Then you could allow an optional window that tells you what ships models + type and number of them are within a certain close range (100km?). then tell you at the 100+ to 1au, how many ships of a ship type are there. and lastly give you just the number of ships at 1au+.
|
Erim Solfara
|
Posted - 2007.01.13 14:37:00 -
[7]
*directs thread here.
Once your ship is powered down, you're off the scanners, and out of local. Which means that you can sit in a belt to ambush someone, or if you're waiting at a safe spot, you can run passive scans throughout the system using probes to detect someone, power up, and move in.
Perhaps a time delay between powering on and appearing in local? Or something else, any ideas appreciated.
----------------------------------------
Proposed new ship class |
Reggie Stoneloader
eXceed Inc.
|
Posted - 2007.01.13 16:10:00 -
[8]
We've got two bickering factions in EvE. Both are whiny, both are annoying, both want their playstyle to be the only feasible play style. Neither knows what they're talking about.
First we've got the whiny carebears who want to be immune to attack and able to mine their shiny rocks and shoot their helpless rats with no risk, and want Concord to ban accounts whenever someone aggresses. They want to mine and build ships and sell them at outrageous markups. What they dont' realize is that without asset destruction there's no demand for manufactured goods except for ammunition, and all their lovingly researched BPOs will be worth less than the paper they're printed on if PvP gets nerfed.
Then we've got the "pirates", who want it to be possible to slink into a system undetected, creep up on an unsuspecting miner, then appear out of nowhere to destroy his ship and pod while cackling maniacally in local, imagining the poor victim's face as they weep over the loss of their retriever. "Oh, no!" they cry, "I was a fool to interlope into the territory of 1337z0r459!" What these guys fail to realize is that such gameplay would make EvE totally unworkable, since nobody would dare undock without a PvP setup, so the targets they creep up on would be waiting with EANM IIs and Void M, ready to do battle at the drop of a hat.
We need a large population of happy carebears to feed a small population of triggerhappy pirates, and teh only way that's going to happen is if it's possible to be a happy carebear. Pirates should live at the fringes of society, unable to deal with respectable businesses and always wondering where their next meal is coming from. You want to be a wandering death-dealer? Fine. Yojimbo was poor, too.
|
Lady ISK
Gallente
University of Caille
|
Posted - 2007.01.13 16:13:00 -
[9]
The very fact that so many people say "I use local to keep me safe" or "We need local to know if we have locked down a system" means people are not truly using local for what it is meant for.
Local chat is meant to chat. Not give away the position of others.
Captain Picard on the Bridge of the Enterprise
"Any day now those Romulans will decloak? How do I know there are Romulans about Number One? Easy. They are showing up in local"
Darth Vader on the Bridge of the Deathstar
"Yes My Lord, I sense the attack of the Rebels? The Force? No my Lord, I used local."
Sure, Empire .5 - 1.0 space have a local channel.
Below .5 have it Constellation Only. That way you know they are out there *somewhere* but you don't know exactly where.
And for the love of all that is good, remove people in cloaked ships from all public chat channels. It is sorta pointless to cloak your ship if you can be found via a chat program.
Or if none of that is doable.
Make it so you can close local. That way it is double fair, you can't be seen, but you can't see either.
|
Reggie Stoneloader
eXceed Inc.
|
Posted - 2007.01.13 16:22:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Reggie Stoneloader on 13/01/2007 16:20:26
Originally by: Lady ISK
Make it so you can close local. That way it is double fair, you can't be seen, but you can't see either.
That's my favorite, and it's the one I backed last time this debate came up. And whenever you close or open local, there's a thirty-second window when you appear in the channel but can't see it, so you can pop in and out in a half-second and scope out who's around.
That makes local useful, since the guy that just glances can be seen for a full minute by others, but if he's willing to do it the hard way with a scanner and forsake all the benefits of local, as so many posters here seem willing to do, then he can sneak up on his targets.
That's the big test. Even with all the whining from pirates about local, we all know that they use it to find victims just as readily as miners use it to spot threats. Make sure they can't find a victim, then "log out" of local and stalk them.
|
Thirlan
|
Posted - 2007.01.13 17:42:00 -
[11]
MY reasons for it are a long the lines of corp to corp warfare and not pirates vs miners. It's just a sad coincidence that this is what it's being used most for. I don't care personally what system is being used to remove people from local, chat so long as sneak attacks are viable again. Hell, if local chat was expanded to encompass a larger region that would still be okay. Because at least you have to search a much larger region to know where the intruder is coming from instead of having 1 scout in every constellation.
|
mightymadmat
Amarr
Ma-Ven Industries
Phobos Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.01.14 02:01:00 -
[12]
There are many who agree with this idea, and those who disagree.
As a miner, I dont like the idea of a potential threat disappearing in the local channel(Carebears Radar)
As a former hunter, this is a like your RL game of tag in thick fog. Forcing players to go on the defensive, especially when it comes to convoys and protecting high value structures (like outposts).
I think there should be a balance for both parties, but doing it in a way that doesnt deter miners from mining in low sec space.
Mighty Mad Mat
Quote : 0.0 space is ideal for strip mining - think of it in both ways |
James Duar
Merch Industrial
|
Posted - 2007.01.14 02:36:00 -
[13]
The way to make no local work for everyone is to give us much more sophisticated EW/sensor system (dependent on factors such as emitted radiation, directionality, passive sensing etc. with a relativistic velocities for scans) and then to remove fixed points of interest in system - i.e. an asteroid belt should be a huge area, with accompanying sensing issues, ghost sigs etc. from scattering.
This would also accompany non-targeted directional warps (go forward x km along this vector), much cheaper scan probes with one-shot warp drives (so you can deploy clouds of them since signals move relativistically now), and highly active stellar phenomena (solar flares, gas clouds, mass-boson focal points etc.) which could be both detected by scans but also used as hiding places or limiters on the type of scanning possible.
And we would absolutely have to have subsystem damage and other such things so a ship you knock a hole in is easier to find, as well as warp telemetry so you can find people's "footprints" in space.
|
VJ Maverick
|
Posted - 2007.01.14 05:17:00 -
[14]
I don't like showing up in local. I think I should be able to role-play the "radio silence" angle when stalking prey.
|
Jackal79
|
Posted - 2007.01.14 09:12:00 -
[15]
I rat in 0.0 and I hunt players who are ratting in 0.0 and I think people showing up in a 'local' chat is retarded - why? Because it is artifical. I think detecting a player's presence within a system should involve game mechanics. Perhaps they could intorduce a new set of skills and a new "detection" system, or modify the scanner system. A local chat should still be present (ressembling a "open" channel), but players shouldn't show up in it until they send a transmission.
|
Anna Smacke
|
Posted - 2007.01.14 14:46:00 -
[16]
How about a passive scanner that shows you when sonmeone new is in the system, you don't know what ship they are flying or where they are, just they are now in the area ... oops,we already have it, it's called "local" ;)
|
Thirlan
|
Posted - 2007.01.15 00:48:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Anna Smacke
How about a passive scanner that shows you when sonmeone new is in the system, you don't know what ship they are flying or where they are, just they are now in the area ... oops,we already have it, it's called "local" ;)
Very funny but it isn't the same thing. One of them comes at no cost where as the other one takes up a slot on your ship. Hence you're trading efficiency for safety/information doing so.
|
BigWhale
Gallente
|
Posted - 2007.01.15 09:18:00 -
[18]
I would vote for an idea of passive and active sensors that can be used to discover ship in the system.
Think of submarines and sonars. They got active pings, with which they can easily detect targets around them and they can also passively listen for them.
|
James Duar
Merch Industrial
|
Posted - 2007.01.15 11:48:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Thirlan
Originally by: Anna Smacke
How about a passive scanner that shows you when sonmeone new is in the system, you don't know what ship they are flying or where they are, just they are now in the area ... oops,we already have it, it's called "local" ;)
Very funny but it isn't the same thing. One of them comes at no cost where as the other one takes up a slot on your ship. Hence you're trading efficiency for safety/information doing so.
I could easily lose a hi-slot on my ratting BS for this module. Just about everyone could.
Ironically this will nerf PVP setups more.
|
DeckardIRL
Gallente
Bravehearts
Xelas Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.01.15 12:41:00 -
[20]
Edited by: DeckardIRL on 15/01/2007 12:38:51
Fighting a war in 0.0.... if there was no local then you would have no idea where the enemy was..... how could you find them... probes.... lol
Local is vital and will never be removed.
1) Miners need it for protection
2) Pirates need it to see if there are any possible targets- are piewats gonna want to scan every single system they enter... yeah for about a day...
3) Finding War targets in empire and 0.0
4) Last but not least- local chat... getting help and co-operation.
Local was just improved by the incorporation of standings, I hope this is improved again by incorporating sec status.
Deck
Edit- typo
_____________________________________________
Watchin' the Game.... Havin' a Bud....
I shoot better on Bud.....
Eve Info- All you need to know |
Marcus Xavier
Minmatar
Xavier Institute for Higher Learning
|
Posted - 2007.01.15 13:10:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Lady ISK
The very fact that so many people say "I use local to keep me safe" or "We need local to know if we have locked down a system" means people are not truly using local for what it is meant for.
Local chat is meant to chat. Not give away the position of others.
Captain Picard on the Bridge of the Enterprise
"Any day now those Romulans will decloak? How do I know there are Romulans about Number One? Easy. They are showing up in local"
Darth Vader on the Bridge of the Deathstar
"Yes My Lord, I sense the attack of the Rebels? The Force? No my Lord, I used local."
Sure, Empire .5 - 1.0 space have a local channel.
Below .5 have it Constellation Only. That way you know they are out there *somewhere* but you don't know exactly where.
And for the love of all that is good, remove people in cloaked ships from all public chat channels. It is sorta pointless to cloak your ship if you can be found via a chat program.
But Captain Picard and Darth Vadar don't use jumpgates that log the arrival and departure of ships into the system.
Although I like the system as it currently exists, perhaps a doable idea would be to create faction-based high-slot IFF (Identification Friend/Foe) transponder modules and skills to "mask" the identity of the ship. To use this device, you need to turn it on prior to making the jump and must keep it on while in the system to remain masked. Of course, there should be a chance based on skill and system security that the module fails during the jump and, since these devices are illegal in faction space, you take both a faction standing hit and sniping from the faction sentry guns at the gate if unmasked.
Although these tools can benefit an organized pirate ops, it would really shine for corp/alliance/faction play by allowing true covert ops missions.
Mutatis Mutandis |
Marcus TheMartin
Gallente
Tuxedo.
|
Posted - 2007.01.15 13:27:00 -
[22]
Originally by: DeckardIRL
Edited by: DeckardIRL on 15/01/2007 12:38:51
Fighting a war in 0.0.... if there was no local then you would have no idea where the enemy was..... how could you find them... probes.... lol
Local is vital and will never be removed.
1) Miners need it for protection
2) Pirates need it to see if there are any possible targets- are piewats gonna want to scan every single system they enter... yeah for about a day...
3) Finding War targets in empire and 0.0
4) Last but not least- local chat... getting help and co-operation.
Local was just improved by the incorporation of standings, I hope this is improved again by incorporating sec status.
Deck
Edit- typo
Yeah while your at it why not add a huge alarm siren every time some one with a sec status below 0 enters the system oh and the nearby station auto tractorbeams you inside so no need to warp to the station and dock. And just to make things fair why not have the station spawn 50 concord battleships to kill all the pirates that have entered the system.
Best Dressed Corp of 2006 and 2007! -Marcus TheMartin
Marcus Thinks Eve who knew!? |
VIctoria Ballentyne
Minmatar
Pale Riders Incorporated
|
Posted - 2007.01.15 15:09:00 -
[23]
In Empire space 1.0 to .5 I don't think Local should be touched. I see it as the basic communications hub between everyone in the system, set up by Concord and untouchable.
In .4 to .1 the local could be changed for Corporate Local based on the corporations that have stations in that system. No stations, no local. Then you could have the option of buying into the corporate communications hub, or using the hacking skill to get in, or the Black Market skill to buy your way in etc etc. Each corporate comms hub would have a set isk price to use based on corporate standing with teh playet.
In 0.0 space no communications hubs would be there, except for those systems which have stations or POS facilities. Then you have to sign on with the station hub at very steep prices, or with the POS Communications hub with the blessing of the alliance that owns it. Again, use of hacking to listen in on the conversations.
"Forbid a man to think for himself or to act for himself and you may add the joy of piracy and the zest of smuggling to his life"
|
DeckardIRL
Gallente
Bravehearts
Xelas Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.01.15 15:26:00 -
[24]
Originally by: VIctoria Ballentyne
No stations, no local
Again, use of hacking to listen in on the conversations.
Some good points there, however if you rent a station it should give you a 5 jump radius for local...
Sorry Marcus but I can't help but think of ideas to make life harder for piewats... 
Deck
_____________________________________________
Watchin' the Game.... Havin' a Bud....
I shoot better on Bud.....
Eve Info- All you need to know |
rciq
|
Posted - 2007.02.05 17:55:00 -
[25]
Of course it's impossible to make a SciFi game realistic since it's all pure fiction but PLEASE make it "believable".
All tactical information should be provided by game mechanics only - not by chat windows/map statistics. The situation now is simply sick.
Originally by: shady trader
Some sort of scanner that runs constantly listing ship types in range (several AU) and moving (allowing people to hide),with owners against ships you have encountered them upclose (for that specific hull based on database id) in the past say the same grid. With coloured tags based on standings for id'ed ships. Similar to the system scanner that we have know but fully automated but only work then not warping to stop people setting up safe stops to travel between scanning the whole system.
The same idea I had on my mind. Would be just perfect. Then we could even use specialized ships/mods to make it more efficient.
|
Da'ithi
Gallente
Celtic industries
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
|
Posted - 2007.02.07 16:09:00 -
[26]
Local is the only way to tell if somebody is on line
Address book is also usable
Getting rid of local will make a pirates life easier
But how will pirates know if their are people in system?
Cloaked ships should be invisible on local
They are for all intents invulnerable if used right
I have no fundamental problem with Cloaked ships not showing on local, I think they should be the only ones not showing if at all, but the question is why?
Intel is never leaked into local, if cov-ops could hack gang chat channels then we would just move to vent or ts to avoid it.
One suggestion is the inclusion of a mod that effects your chances of showing up in local. Based on sig radius. A higher skill means a better chance of a sneak attack, but never showing up is impossible. Fleets are screwed as they will always have somebody without the mod or skill or luck. It only leaves small solo ships being able to use sneak attacks.
Say the device sits in a high slot (only fair really)
A skill of Local Sensor Disruption could be introduced, with a maximum of 25% chance increase to a successful activation.
Malediction 33m
Megathron 400m
The mega can only hide in local one twelfth as much as the Malediction which itself can only manage about 1/3rd of the time with max skills, that seems fairish if a little rough.
However so far the best suggestion I have heard was making Constellation and Local the same thing in a 0.0 system, its more in keeping with the way 0.0 works and the bulk of the Industrialists are unaffected.
|
Taedrin
Gallente
Mercatoris Technologies
|
Posted - 2007.02.07 16:19:00 -
[27]
/signed.
Local should not be used as an intel gathering tool. There should be skill/mods/the scanner for that. However, you should make sure that carebears are not too vulnerable to pirates, since if you make low sec too dangerous, low sec will empty out even more than it already is.
|
Hypatia Iola
|
Posted - 2007.02.07 16:23:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Hypatia Iola on 07/02/2007 16:21:31
i'm of 2 minds on this:
1 i really don't think chat should be used as a weapon, it strikes a chord with me
2 i really don't lkke the way they have scanners set up (that is, they're useless unless you're hunting)
solution: talk to get into chat but have passive system-wide scanners, which can be beaten with cloaks/whatever.
that way miners can still go out and work to detecct incoming pirates ahead of time, but pirates have an effective counter, which right now they don't
edit lol ****ion-hilarious... corrected spelling
|
Meditril
|
Posted - 2007.02.07 19:21:00 -
[29]
Local is okay, its good to know how is around for both parties: pirates and carebeers. Rather I propose to remove cloaked ships from local. Cloaked ships are nearly useless because you are not really act covered if everybody in a system knows you are there.
|
Xaen
Caldari
Science and Trade Institute
|
Posted - 2007.02.07 19:26:00 -
[30]
I sort of agree.
Cloaked ships should not have their pilots appear in local while cloaked (even after talking - so as to leave you guessing if they left or not).
If you're bring a big ass war party, or a big ass ship for that matter - into a system, why shouldn't your presence be obvious (broadcast)?
-
More hotkeys! Faster skill training |
Auron Shadowbane
|
Posted - 2007.02.07 21:36:00 -
[31]
Originally by: James Duar
The way to make no local work for everyone is to give us much more sophisticated EW/sensor system (dependent on factors such as emitted radiation, directionality, passive sensing etc. with a relativistic velocities for scans) and then to remove fixed points of interest in system - i.e. an asteroid belt should be a huge area, with accompanying sensing issues, ghost sigs etc. from scattering.
This would also accompany non-targeted directional warps (go forward x km along this vector), much cheaper scan probes with one-shot warp drives (so you can deploy clouds of them since signals move relativistically now), and highly active stellar phenomena (solar flares, gas clouds, mass-boson focal points etc.) which could be both detected by scans but also used as hiding places or limiters on the type of scanning possible.
And we would absolutely have to have subsystem damage and other such things so a ship you knock a hole in is easier to find, as well as warp telemetry so you can find people's "footprints" in space.
QFT
make local optional and introduce a more complex and at same time more powerfull and skill/fitting oriented scanning&detection systhem.
make systhem wide asteroid belts.
If you make it hard enough to find someone that will be the first and main step to repopulate lowsec. If a miner can hide in relative safety from all the ebil piwats who can only press the trigger but can barely see the difference between plong and a radar result there will be more juicy prey for those few elite hunters out there.
ohh and give controlling alliance a way to shutdown jumpgates 100% without the need of a fleet and bubles. something like a force-field emitter that automatically kills every not-allowed ship which jumps trough as well as the pod.
|
Maya Rkell
Forsaken Empire
The Forsaken Empire
|
Posted - 2007.02.07 21:48:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Maya Rkell on 07/02/2007 21:45:10
"The way I see it you shouldn't be visible in local until you talk."
The way I see it, you're asking for gank, gank, gank. The only suucessful people in 0.0 will position a newb scout on the gate and log the moment anyone enters local. Anything else is suicide.
shady trader, why should it inherently "protect" people sitting still? Except your idea wouldn't either. "A few AU" also dosn't cut it. Even with the current 15 AU scanner, if you don't scan every 5 seconds, they CAN get to you before you can warp.
Erim Solfara, even more unbalanced for the attacker. First thing you know is when 20 enemy ships drop out of warp at 0km from you. Because they knew you were there, and not vice-versa.
Reggie Stoneloader, piracy usually ISN'T profitable in Eve.
Lady ISK, and this is a game, not a TV show. Peeshooter, Elephant Rifle.
"Below .5 have it Constellation Only."
Yes, so now pirates can locate you if you're ANYWHERE in the constelation. Nice! Your only viable response is to log/run. And cloaked shi[s NEVER show up? Oops, see above: "alt scouts at games and log, or don't bother".
James Duar, yes, and it'd be nice to have true LoS for weapons as well. Unfortunately, the Eve servers can't support that either.
Meditril, that's a personal skill issue not a rules one...
If you're skilled, you can do the unexpected anyway. If you're not? You need to think about tying your enemies down to targets they have to defend. Or just stop them doing their thing until they fight you or surrender.
Incidentally, CCP have outright stated that there will be one model for local
everywhere. So ideas varying it by sec status are wasted breath.
And a system where you get kicked from a corp if you EVER use local? Bleck. Because that's what a lot of you want made mandatory.
edit: Auron Shadowbane: Nice sarcasm. You know as well as I do that alliances would shut down the first jumps into 0.0.
//Maya |
James Duar
Merch Industrial
We Are Nice Guys
|
Posted - 2007.02.08 06:03:00 -
[33]
Where the hell did I mention LoS weapons? Obviously the servers can't hack it, but what the hell are you replying to in this thread?
|
Lavinrac Krad
|
Posted - 2007.02.08 11:09:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Lavinrac Krad on 08/02/2007 11:06:07
If it is all about a suprise attack mechanic, then not only should people be removed local, but also "the pilots in system last 30 minutes" stat on the map should be removed as well.
If this were the policy, then I would be for it totally because then the defender and attacker are on completely even footing.
|
Cailais
Amarr
Domus Fatalis
X-PACT
|
Posted - 2007.02.08 11:37:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Reggie Stoneloader
We've got two bickering factions in EvE. Both are whiny, both are annoying, both want their playstyle to be the only feasible play style. Neither knows what they're talking about.quote]
That's class - I might attach that to my sig.
In my view it's really really simple - cloaking removes you from local. Pilots who want to be a sneaky ebil pirate fit a cloak.
C.
www.sefrim.com - sig design - eve mail for details
|
Ernendo Isle
|
Posted - 2007.02.08 11:58:00 -
[36]
I'd say, it's logical that all ships show up in local...
This is a high-tech game. Imagine radars, radio-communications, in-space registration to avoid 'warp-collisions' etc.
It's imperative that we keep the local to see who's entering systems. It's fine with cloaking can't reveal your location by scanning, but something must tell us, you are there.
|
Cailais
Amarr
Domus Fatalis
X-PACT
|
Posted - 2007.02.08 12:43:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Ernendo Isle
I'd say, it's logical that all ships show up in local...
This is a high-tech game. Imagine radars, radio-communications, in-space registration to avoid 'warp-collisions' etc.
It's imperative that we keep the local to see who's entering systems. It's fine with cloaking can't reveal your location by scanning, but something must tell us, you are there.
Why? Why must we be aware of a cloaked ship in local? So we can afk mine/rat while we get a drink, watch tv or pop down the pub?
C.
www.sefrim.com - sig design - eve mail for details
|
Hermosa Diosas
|
Posted - 2007.02.08 13:20:00 -
[38]
Cant you just use a cloak?
|
Lagar
Caldari
Core Domination
|
Posted - 2007.02.08 13:39:00 -
[39]
i am not actualy sure they will.. however.. i just thought of something:
why not make cosmos constelation not show anyone in local? it's actualy makes sence also increasing the dynamic. since first of all cosmos constelations are in general more risk more rewarding than the other 0.0 systems.. further more it means more risk for the buck..
|
renegade leader
|
Posted - 2007.02.08 17:08:00 -
[40]
Edited by: renegade leader on 08/02/2007 17:27:35
Edited by: renegade leader on 08/02/2007 17:07:54
Hmm. I got mixed feelings about being seen in local. lol. But... I tend to feel that if this game is supposed to emulate real life in the future, then I believe that everyone in any given system should only be seen on the ships variable distance sensors and not on the convo channels UNLESS of course they speak. Once they chat then their ability to remain hidden is jeapordized to all that is currently in the system and hidden to those that have not yet entered that system. I seen the help channel a few times like that. Where there are no faces until someone chats. If someone want to know if so n so is in their system then they should be able to tell by linking their standings for that person / corp to the ships sensors. This would alert them to any potential enemies or criminals in the area. Also concord can also have them flagged in the scanner as well. This is a more appropriate way of detecting ships and things. Not the convo channels. Also you get a 1 time message sent by the scanner that says so n so has entered the system and another one that says so n so has left the system. That setting however would need to be set thru the settings in the overview section. 
|
Hermosa Diosas
|
Posted - 2007.02.08 20:35:00 -
[41]
a radar system would be ideal
|
Angelus Xenotov
|
Posted - 2007.02.09 00:41:00 -
[42]
Invariably, this is split between two types of people:
The 'Pro' remove local group (Who invariably are the ones who have something to gain from local being removed)
The 'Anti' remove local group (Who invaribly have something to lose from losing local)
The way I see it? Keep local for EVERYTHING, removing local only benefits larger gangs of people in low-sec/0.0 (Who have enough firepower to take on anything short of another blob) rather than a lone player (Who is going to get killed by anything more than 1 or two ships).
Removing local for Cloakers just means alot more Recon gangs trying to kill everything, again making 0.0 far more suitable for larger recon gangs rather than the lone player.
0.0 no local would make expansion into it possible only by gankfleets, its unacceptable and CCP shouldn't do it what so ever.
|
Hesed
Hamartia.
|
Posted - 2007.02.09 01:01:00 -
[43]
Well, piracy revolves around alt cloak scouts because NBSI doesn't really apply to lowsec (maybe it should, -9.9 sec Jaspet miners ftw). With interdictors warping at 9AU/s (+rigs too), you better not mine in a small system.
With exploration, the issue of public belts has significantly eroded.
|
Lakotnik
|
Posted - 2007.02.09 01:07:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Lakotnik on 09/02/2007 01:05:07
Could people that agree with idea tell what they think will happen to gameplay in longer term? 0.4-0.1 systems are usually quite dangerous already. In hispace, local is so crowded its almost useless. Who will benefit - well, hit and run operations become much more viable in 0.0, entering one system with station, going to belt with a group and ganking ratters or miners. Defence against that? Nothing at all. So - logical result in 0.0 will be that EVERY gate will be heavily camped, preventing those groups even from entering. Or, alternatively, people will go rat hunting and mining in huge blobs to prevent these attacks.
Lowsec will be just empty - who would ever risk that much for just a bit of benefit. Result: tactics you want will NEVER work. And implementing that will just ruin large parts of game.
Or if we make a module - just another must to have module, killing different setup posibilities.
SO - those in favor - tell me your visions. Not just short term result, i am looking for effects after a couple of months.
EDIT: TBH-some ideas here make some sense, opening idea doesnt.
Smile, tomorrow will be worse. |
Hesed
Hamartia.
|
Posted - 2007.02.09 01:28:00 -
[45]
Well, piracy revolves around alt cloak scouts because NBSI doesn't really apply to lowsec (maybe it should, -9.9 sec Jaspet miners ftw). With interdictors warping at 9AU/s (+rigs too), you better not mine in a small system.
With exploration, the issue of public belts has significantly eroded.
The real problem also contains the issue of scanners, cloaks and lack of effects generation between the two.
Honestly, if any Dev wants to come up with a good solution to the problem, they need someone who reads military fiction, particularly that concerning submarines. If they have even a Tom Clancy fan in the ranks of developers, they should have an adequate notion of the options the EVE system can allow. A chapter on Passive Sonar should suffice for months of development.
What we really need are passive and active detection methods. We also need some actions and some ships to be "louder" than others. We kindof have this with probes and sig radius, but that simply isn't enough. There is a lack of "reasonable doubt" going on with intel, as well as a lack of "false positives," to encourage this Persistent Doubt. There needs to be some question that there is even a rival entity present.
Making it hard to distinguish an NPC from a human on scans, or even a ship from a rock would go a long way to improving things. It's kindof neat that scans can be managed by hand, but we also need an multi-database scan that goes by the numbers. People should be able to "hide" within a variety of axes of data. An example might be different levels of cloaking or subspace with different risks and perceptual options. Or it might be masking the engine or warp core trace of the vessel. An gravimetric drive in the middle of Angels territory would be a dead giveaway. Another option might be to allow certain variables of "frequencies" of data leaking slip in order to concentrate on another, say making it impossible to determine the size of the target. Or perhaps a give and take of variables entirely unique to a new scanning system.
Imagine for a moment you are looking at two large but bounded number sets, or two variables on your scanner. You can set a whole grid scan but it takes a quantity of time correlating the the volume of data to be examined. You can shorten the time by making the scanner look only for the largest or most outstanding of anomalies. However, you can constrain the scan along either or both variables to get faster times, and constrain them down to very finite possibles (spotting even gravimetric drones signs fex) or quite long range. A practiced user could understand this data very well. This is not a probing system, but instead just a replacement for local. It is a Pre-scanning System. Running around cloaked should make pre-scanning even harder, especially for range, but still be useful for deploying primary scanning practices. This system can take many minutes or the better part of the hour. You might not ever find anything, but at the same time, if you do get lucky, you have a better shot of the yet-to-be engaged never noticing you.
Most people on the other end of pre-scanning will be doing frequent, near range, broad scans, and/or listening for very "loud" actions like warp core activation. Alternately, they may be scanning against certain popular setups or practices. If you incorporate a broad variety of approach techniques, you increase the amount of variability.
Then there could be active masking as well as "loud" scanning for the brash. A person that wanted to hide might be able to deploy decoys that only activate when they are scanned. In this case it would probably be too many server objects, but finding a way to make a decoy blend in with the natural features of the environment could be interesting. Loud scanning might be done be fleets or groups that are looking for a fight, and not terribly worried about being chanced.
|
Lamias
|
Posted - 2007.02.09 07:31:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Nian Banks
Edited by: Nian Banks on 13/01/2007 14:22:17
To be honest, The way people use local to see if its safe makes is probably a bad idea in reality (eve reality), if your a pirate you don't want people know who you are and that your in the system, your hiding.
Perhaps if we replace the way local shows all players to just those who you have seen speek in local, then add a simple bit of text in the system text you see on the top left of your screen, having it say "There are 16 Players in this system".
Then you could allow an optional window that tells you what ships models + type and number of them are within a certain close range (100km?). then tell you at the 100+ to 1au, how many ships of a ship type are there. and lastly give you just the number of ships at 1au+.
I like the first two parts, but i think a type of observation probe would be needed for the third.
So miner's would have to set stationary probes up at the gates or in belts or by planets (where you wanted) to see ships entering and leaving a 100km area around the probe. This info could be routed to an entire gang. The probe could be disabled/destroyed and that would be an indication that you should jet. Probes should last for like four hours each. You can only receive information from probes in the current system due to the power needs of faster than light communication. This could work against miner's as well =)) Pirates could also deploy the stationary probes and gather intel on which gate you just warped into.
|
Kotorr Vepar
Caldari
Irillia Corporation
|
Posted - 2007.02.09 22:07:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Hesed
Honestly, if any Dev wants to come up with a good solution to the problem, they need someone who reads military fiction, particularly that concerning submarines. If they have even a Tom Clancy fan in the ranks of developers, they should have an adequate notion of the options the EVE system can allow. A chapter on Passive Sonar should suffice for months of development.
What we really need are passive and active detection methods. We also need some actions and some ships to be "louder" than others. We kindof have this with probes and sig radius, but that simply isn't enough. There is a lack of "reasonable doubt" going on with intel, as well as a lack of "false positives," to encourage this Persistent Doubt. There needs to be some question that there is even a rival entity present.
I've proposed something similar here. It details passive and active systems for detection. These systems would be standard on any ship. It wouldn't require a module obviously.
If you remove local, there must be some way of detecting ships in your vicinity. As it stands, anything that isn't cloaked within a certain distance is autoamtically detected and displayed on overview. Beyond that, we have scan probes at our disposal.
An alternative method is the modified sensor system I've proposed. My sensor system proposal goes a bit further than necessary on some things.
Another method is creating a new class of ships that have specialized scanners to detect vessels within a certain range, measured in AU. These ships would fill a role similar to present day Airborne Early-Warning aircraft, like the E-3 Sentry. As described in my sensor system proposal, these AEW ships would be seen by others beyond their own detection radius. These ships would not eliminate the need for scan probes. They would still fulfill a tactical niche with long-range detection.
Local itself may just need to have the list of players removed. I don't see a problem with the communications channel itself since ships should be able to locally broadcast messages, perhaps within a range of several jumps, but it doesn't have to list how many players are there and who they are.
I shouldn't be offered a clear picture of the dangers in a system seconds after jumping into it. The map also offers us the ability to know the dangers prior to entering a system. You can't really address local without addressing the equally revealing information available on the map. In doing so, you may end up with information superiority on behalf of large corporations or alliances, and small corps at a rather large disadvantage, walking blindly into the galaxy. That problem alone may leave local as it is.
--
Want to see a more interesting and challenging environment in EVE? Check out my Sensor System Proposal |
Maya Rkell
Forsaken Empire
The Forsaken Empire
|
Posted - 2007.02.09 22:30:00 -
[48]
Originally by: James Duar
Where the hell did I mention LoS weapons? Obviously the servers can't hack it, but what the hell are you replying to in this thread?
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sarcasm
And yes, obviously the servers can't hack your idea.
Lavinrac Krad, that's called the "fallacy of equivalence". It's a very common one in design (and beyond). For example, "an apple is a fruit. An orange is a fruit. Because they are both fruit, they are equivalent". That's what you just argued.
Lagar, CCP have stated several times there will be one mechanic for local everywhere.
Angelus Xenotov, NUTS! I have everything to "gain" from removal. I'd get a lot more kills. For a while. Then people would quit for other games, and the rest would be using logoff tactics as the only viable way to survive.
Hesed, you want to base a system off the handwaveium used in a series of trash science books?
"Persistent Doubt" means they ARE there, period, if you're the hunted.
"Persistent Doubt" means you waste hours and hours, if you're the hunter.
"Making it hard to distinguish an NPC from a human on scans, or even a ship from a rock would go a long way to improving things."
No, it destroys any sense of control or interest. I see a ship, I'm a miner, I log. Could be anything, can't afford to stick arround and find out.
"An gravimetric drive in the middle of Angels territory would be a dead giveaway"
So you must fly the "right" race or don't bother, right. Sigh.
You're basically turning Eve into a series of long boring scans which do nothing. Becuase they'll sit on the gate, and log when you enter local. It's the ONLY way they can tell under your system.
Kotorr Vepar, yes, they'd fill the niche currently filled with "scouts". Shame about those few remaining die-hard frigate pilots.
"The map also offers us the ability to know the dangers prior to entering a system."
The map blatently lies and is less than worthless. A human pair of eyes is the ONLY way to get data in this game, because of this. You'd just remove it and leave us floating in a boring, empty void where I might be able to find one guy who logs after an hour of trying, while 100 others laugh at me.
And yes, of COURSE it'd favour the corps who station cloaked alts at gates with reporting macros.
//Maya |
| |
|
| Pages: 1 2 :: [one page] |