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Thirlan	Posted - 2007.01.13 05:58:00 - [1] Please I beg you lol! Sneak attacks are almost impossible with people showing up in local. Do something, anything to change this. Make a skill/module that removes you from local or the inverse. Make a skill/module that allows people to DETECT you in local. The way I see it you shouldn't be visible in local until you talk. I know a lot of you miners are going to flame me to all hell but I'm a miner and I think this is a retarded advantage that probably wasn't implemented to be done in this fashion. If it was... I'm speechless lol
Valandril Caldari Resurrection R i s e	Posted - 2007.01.13 06:00:00 - [2] Originally by: Thirlan Please I beg you lol! Sneak attacks are almost impossible with people showing up in local. Do something, anything to change this. Make a skill/module that removes you from local or the inverse. Make a skill/module that allows people to DETECT you in local. The way I see it you shouldn't be visible in local until you talk. I know a lot of you miners are going to flame me to all hell but I'm a miner and I think this is a retarded advantage that probably wasn't implemented to be done in this fashion. If it was... I'm speechless lol I'm not miner, but i don't like the idea, since there is no possbility to totaly shutdown system we need to know should we wonder or no. ----------------- My english bad, F1, F2, F3, F4...
CrestoftheStars Deviance Inc SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.13 07:22:00 - [3] yer this would be fine, a good idear... the secound they fix the scramblers this should be next... if you can't be detected in local, your scrambler shouldn't be a "forever no escape"... should just be a time + to the timer that SHOULD have been there instead of alignment teori... ___________________________________________ come on.. stop thinking about YOU. and start thinking about All of us... how do we get a more fun and enjoyable game for all of us.
Hypo Psycho Minmatar Universal Army	Posted - 2007.01.13 10:02:00 - [4] im not a miner and i dont like the idea. it ammuses me the way that players whine about carebears, without those carebears eve would not exist. no mining = no minerals = no production = no ships/modules every single pirate or PvPer out there relies on carebears for ammo ships and fittings without them you would all be flying around in newb ships so maybe. so maybe a little consideration should be given to those players and until you start flying newbs ships stop making there life hard. "see you on the other side"
shady trader	Posted - 2007.01.13 13:51:00 - [5] I am personally not in favour of this idea. As a miner (based in empire) always try and track how is in the system to protect both my ships and ore. At the moment local is the only way some one in a barge has to know then to get out of the belts. If local is removed it needs replacing with something that will work to protect miners but also stop you knowing who is in the system and hiding. Some sort of scanner that runs constantly listing ship types in range (several AU) and moving (allowing people to hide),with owners against ships you have encountered them upclose (for that specific hull based on database id) in the past say the same grid. With coloured tags based on standings for id'ed ships. Similar to the system scanner that we have know but fully automated but only work then not warping to stop people setting up safe stops to travel between scanning the whole system.
Nian Banks	Posted - 2007.01.13 14:24:00 - [6] Edited by: Nian Banks on 13/01/2007 14:22:17 To be honest, The way people use local to see if its safe makes is probably a bad idea in reality (eve reality), if your a pirate you don't want people know who you are and that your in the system, your hiding. Perhaps if we replace the way local shows all players to just those who you have seen speek in local, then add a simple bit of text in the system text you see on the top left of your screen, having it say "There are 16 Players in this system". Then you could allow an optional window that tells you what ships models + type and number of them are within a certain close range (100km?). then tell you at the 100+ to 1au, how many ships of a ship type are there. and lastly give you just the number of ships at 1au+.
Erim Solfara	Posted - 2007.01.13 14:37:00 - [7] *directs thread here. Once your ship is powered down, you're off the scanners, and out of local. Which means that you can sit in a belt to ambush someone, or if you're waiting at a safe spot, you can run passive scans throughout the system using probes to detect someone, power up, and move in. Perhaps a time delay between powering on and appearing in local? Or something else, any ideas appreciated. ---------------------------------------- Proposed new ship class
Reggie Stoneloader eXceed Inc.	Posted - 2007.01.13 16:10:00 - [8] We've got two bickering factions in EvE. Both are whiny, both are annoying, both want their playstyle to be the only feasible play style. Neither knows what they're talking about. First we've got the whiny carebears who want to be immune to attack and able to mine their shiny rocks and shoot their helpless rats with no risk, and want Concord to ban accounts whenever someone aggresses. They want to mine and build ships and sell them at outrageous markups. What they dont' realize is that without asset destruction there's no demand for manufactured goods except for ammunition, and all their lovingly researched BPOs will be worth less than the paper they're printed on if PvP gets nerfed. Then we've got the "pirates", who want it to be possible to slink into a system undetected, creep up on an unsuspecting miner, then appear out of nowhere to destroy his ship and pod while cackling maniacally in local, imagining the poor victim's face as they weep over the loss of their retriever. "Oh, no!" they cry, "I was a fool to interlope into the territory of 1337z0r459!" What these guys fail to realize is that such gameplay would make EvE totally unworkable, since nobody would dare undock without a PvP setup, so the targets they creep up on would be waiting with EANM IIs and Void M, ready to do battle at the drop of a hat. We need a large population of happy carebears to feed a small population of triggerhappy pirates, and teh only way that's going to happen is if it's possible to be a happy carebear. Pirates should live at the fringes of society, unable to deal with respectable businesses and always wondering where their next meal is coming from. You want to be a wandering death-dealer? Fine. Yojimbo was poor, too.
Lady ISK Gallente University of Caille	Posted - 2007.01.13 16:13:00 - [9] The very fact that so many people say "I use local to keep me safe" or "We need local to know if we have locked down a system" means people are not truly using local for what it is meant for. Local chat is meant to chat. Not give away the position of others. Captain Picard on the Bridge of the Enterprise "Any day now those Romulans will decloak? How do I know there are Romulans about Number One? Easy. They are showing up in local" Darth Vader on the Bridge of the Deathstar "Yes My Lord, I sense the attack of the Rebels? The Force? No my Lord, I used local." Sure, Empire .5 - 1.0 space have a local channel. Below .5 have it Constellation Only. That way you know they are out there somewhere but you don't know exactly where. And for the love of all that is good, remove people in cloaked ships from all public chat channels. It is sorta pointless to cloak your ship if you can be found via a chat program. Or if none of that is doable. Make it so you can close local. That way it is double fair, you can't be seen, but you can't see either.
Reggie Stoneloader eXceed Inc.	Posted - 2007.01.13 16:22:00 - [10] Edited by: Reggie Stoneloader on 13/01/2007 16:20:26 Originally by: Lady ISK Make it so you can close local. That way it is double fair, you can't be seen, but you can't see either. That's my favorite, and it's the one I backed last time this debate came up. And whenever you close or open local, there's a thirty-second window when you appear in the channel but can't see it, so you can pop in and out in a half-second and scope out who's around. That makes local useful, since the guy that just glances can be seen for a full minute by others, but if he's willing to do it the hard way with a scanner and forsake all the benefits of local, as so many posters here seem willing to do, then he can sneak up on his targets. That's the big test. Even with all the whining from pirates about local, we all know that they use it to find victims just as readily as miners use it to spot threats. Make sure they can't find a victim, then "log out" of local and stalk them.
Thirlan	Posted - 2007.01.13 17:42:00 - [11] MY reasons for it are a long the lines of corp to corp warfare and not pirates vs miners. It's just a sad coincidence that this is what it's being used most for. I don't care personally what system is being used to remove people from local, chat so long as sneak attacks are viable again. Hell, if local chat was expanded to encompass a larger region that would still be okay. Because at least you have to search a much larger region to know where the intruder is coming from instead of having 1 scout in every constellation.
mightymadmat Amarr Ma-Ven Industries Phobos Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.14 02:01:00 - [12] There are many who agree with this idea, and those who disagree. As a miner, I dont like the idea of a potential threat disappearing in the local channel(Carebears Radar) As a former hunter, this is a like your RL game of tag in thick fog. Forcing players to go on the defensive, especially when it comes to convoys and protecting high value structures (like outposts). I think there should be a balance for both parties, but doing it in a way that doesnt deter miners from mining in low sec space. Mighty Mad Mat Quote : 0.0 space is ideal for strip mining - think of it in both ways
James Duar Merch Industrial	Posted - 2007.01.14 02:36:00 - [13] The way to make no local work for everyone is to give us much more sophisticated EW/sensor system (dependent on factors such as emitted radiation, directionality, passive sensing etc. with a relativistic velocities for scans) and then to remove fixed points of interest in system - i.e. an asteroid belt should be a huge area, with accompanying sensing issues, ghost sigs etc. from scattering. This would also accompany non-targeted directional warps (go forward x km along this vector), much cheaper scan probes with one-shot warp drives (so you can deploy clouds of them since signals move relativistically now), and highly active stellar phenomena (solar flares, gas clouds, mass-boson focal points etc.) which could be both detected by scans but also used as hiding places or limiters on the type of scanning possible. And we would absolutely have to have subsystem damage and other such things so a ship you knock a hole in is easier to find, as well as warp telemetry so you can find people's "footprints" in space.
VJ Maverick	Posted - 2007.01.14 05:17:00 - [14] I don't like showing up in local. I think I should be able to role-play the "radio silence" angle when stalking prey.
Jackal79	Posted - 2007.01.14 09:12:00 - [15] I rat in 0.0 and I hunt players who are ratting in 0.0 and I think people showing up in a 'local' chat is retarded - why? Because it is artifical. I think detecting a player's presence within a system should involve game mechanics. Perhaps they could intorduce a new set of skills and a new "detection" system, or modify the scanner system. A local chat should still be present (ressembling a "open" channel), but players shouldn't show up in it until they send a transmission.
Anna Smacke	Posted - 2007.01.14 14:46:00 - [16] How about a passive scanner that shows you when sonmeone new is in the system, you don't know what ship they are flying or where they are, just they are now in the area ... oops,we already have it, it's called "local" ;)
Thirlan	Posted - 2007.01.15 00:48:00 - [17] Originally by: Anna Smacke How about a passive scanner that shows you when sonmeone new is in the system, you don't know what ship they are flying or where they are, just they are now in the area ... oops,we already have it, it's called "local" ;) Very funny but it isn't the same thing. One of them comes at no cost where as the other one takes up a slot on your ship. Hence you're trading efficiency for safety/information doing so.
BigWhale Gallente	Posted - 2007.01.15 09:18:00 - [18] I would vote for an idea of passive and active sensors that can be used to discover ship in the system. Think of submarines and sonars. They got active pings, with which they can easily detect targets around them and they can also passively listen for them.
James Duar Merch Industrial	Posted - 2007.01.15 11:48:00 - [19] Originally by: Thirlan Originally by: Anna Smacke How about a passive scanner that shows you when sonmeone new is in the system, you don't know what ship they are flying or where they are, just they are now in the area ... oops,we already have it, it's called "local" ;) Very funny but it isn't the same thing. One of them comes at no cost where as the other one takes up a slot on your ship. Hence you're trading efficiency for safety/information doing so. I could easily lose a hi-slot on my ratting BS for this module. Just about everyone could. Ironically this will nerf PVP setups more.
DeckardIRL Gallente Bravehearts Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.15 12:41:00 - [20] Edited by: DeckardIRL on 15/01/2007 12:38:51 Fighting a war in 0.0.... if there was no local then you would have no idea where the enemy was..... how could you find them... probes.... lol Local is vital and will never be removed. 1) Miners need it for protection 2) Pirates need it to see if there are any possible targets- are piewats gonna want to scan every single system they enter... yeah for about a day... 3) Finding War targets in empire and 0.0 4) Last but not least- local chat... getting help and co-operation. Local was just improved by the incorporation of standings, I hope this is improved again by incorporating sec status. Deck Edit- typo _____________________________________________ Watchin' the Game.... Havin' a Bud.... I shoot better on Bud..... Eve Info- All you need to know
Marcus Xavier Minmatar Xavier Institute for Higher Learning	Posted - 2007.01.15 13:10:00 - [21] Originally by: Lady ISK The very fact that so many people say "I use local to keep me safe" or "We need local to know if we have locked down a system" means people are not truly using local for what it is meant for. Local chat is meant to chat. Not give away the position of others. Captain Picard on the Bridge of the Enterprise "Any day now those Romulans will decloak? How do I know there are Romulans about Number One? Easy. They are showing up in local" Darth Vader on the Bridge of the Deathstar "Yes My Lord, I sense the attack of the Rebels? The Force? No my Lord, I used local." Sure, Empire .5 - 1.0 space have a local channel. Below .5 have it Constellation Only. That way you know they are out there somewhere but you don't know exactly where. And for the love of all that is good, remove people in cloaked ships from all public chat channels. It is sorta pointless to cloak your ship if you can be found via a chat program. But Captain Picard and Darth Vadar don't use jumpgates that log the arrival and departure of ships into the system. Although I like the system as it currently exists, perhaps a doable idea would be to create faction-based high-slot IFF (Identification Friend/Foe) transponder modules and skills to "mask" the identity of the ship. To use this device, you need to turn it on prior to making the jump and must keep it on while in the system to remain masked. Of course, there should be a chance based on skill and system security that the module fails during the jump and, since these devices are illegal in faction space, you take both a faction standing hit and sniping from the faction sentry guns at the gate if unmasked. Although these tools can benefit an organized pirate ops, it would really shine for corp/alliance/faction play by allowing true covert ops missions. Mutatis Mutandis
Marcus TheMartin Gallente Tuxedo.	Posted - 2007.01.15 13:27:00 - [22] Originally by: DeckardIRL Edited by: DeckardIRL on 15/01/2007 12:38:51 Fighting a war in 0.0.... if there was no local then you would have no idea where the enemy was..... how could you find them... probes.... lol Local is vital and will never be removed. 1) Miners need it for protection 2) Pirates need it to see if there are any possible targets- are piewats gonna want to scan every single system they enter... yeah for about a day... 3) Finding War targets in empire and 0.0 4) Last but not least- local chat... getting help and co-operation. Local was just improved by the incorporation of standings, I hope this is improved again by incorporating sec status. Deck Edit- typo Yeah while your at it why not add a huge alarm siren every time some one with a sec status below 0 enters the system oh and the nearby station auto tractorbeams you inside so no need to warp to the station and dock. And just to make things fair why not have the station spawn 50 concord battleships to kill all the pirates that have entered the system. Best Dressed Corp of 2006 and 2007! -Marcus TheMartin Marcus Thinks Eve who knew!?
VIctoria Ballentyne Minmatar Pale Riders Incorporated	Posted - 2007.01.15 15:09:00 - [23] In Empire space 1.0 to .5 I don't think Local should be touched. I see it as the basic communications hub between everyone in the system, set up by Concord and untouchable. In .4 to .1 the local could be changed for Corporate Local based on the corporations that have stations in that system. No stations, no local. Then you could have the option of buying into the corporate communications hub, or using the hacking skill to get in, or the Black Market skill to buy your way in etc etc. Each corporate comms hub would have a set isk price to use based on corporate standing with teh playet. In 0.0 space no communications hubs would be there, except for those systems which have stations or POS facilities. Then you have to sign on with the station hub at very steep prices, or with the POS Communications hub with the blessing of the alliance that owns it. Again, use of hacking to listen in on the conversations. "Forbid a man to think for himself or to act for himself and you may add the joy of piracy and the zest of smuggling to his life"
DeckardIRL Gallente Bravehearts Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2007.01.15 15:26:00 - [24] Originally by: VIctoria Ballentyne No stations, no local Again, use of hacking to listen in on the conversations. Some good points there, however if you rent a station it should give you a 5 jump radius for local... Sorry Marcus but I can't help but think of ideas to make life harder for piewats... Deck _____________________________________________ Watchin' the Game.... Havin' a Bud.... I shoot better on Bud..... Eve Info- All you need to know
rciq	Posted - 2007.02.05 17:55:00 - [25] Of course it's impossible to make a SciFi game realistic since it's all pure fiction but PLEASE make it "believable". All tactical information should be provided by game mechanics only - not by chat windows/map statistics. The situation now is simply sick. Originally by: shady trader Some sort of scanner that runs constantly listing ship types in range (several AU) and moving (allowing people to hide),with owners against ships you have encountered them upclose (for that specific hull based on database id) in the past say the same grid. With coloured tags based on standings for id'ed ships. Similar to the system scanner that we have know but fully automated but only work then not warping to stop people setting up safe stops to travel between scanning the whole system. The same idea I had on my mind. Would be just perfect. Then we could even use specialized ships/mods to make it more efficient.
Da'ithi Gallente Celtic industries Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.02.07 16:09:00 - [26] Local is the only way to tell if somebody is on line Address book is also usable Getting rid of local will make a pirates life easier But how will pirates know if their are people in system? Cloaked ships should be invisible on local They are for all intents invulnerable if used right I have no fundamental problem with Cloaked ships not showing on local, I think they should be the only ones not showing if at all, but the question is why? Intel is never leaked into local, if cov-ops could hack gang chat channels then we would just move to vent or ts to avoid it. One suggestion is the inclusion of a mod that effects your chances of showing up in local. Based on sig radius. A higher skill means a better chance of a sneak attack, but never showing up is impossible. Fleets are screwed as they will always have somebody without the mod or skill or luck. It only leaves small solo ships being able to use sneak attacks. Say the device sits in a high slot (only fair really) A skill of Local Sensor Disruption could be introduced, with a maximum of 25% chance increase to a successful activation. Malediction 33m Megathron 400m The mega can only hide in local one twelfth as much as the Malediction which itself can only manage about 1/3rd of the time with max skills, that seems fairish if a little rough. However so far the best suggestion I have heard was making Constellation and Local the same thing in a 0.0 system, its more in keeping with the way 0.0 works and the bulk of the Industrialists are unaffected.
Taedrin Gallente Mercatoris Technologies	Posted - 2007.02.07 16:19:00 - [27] /signed. Local should not be used as an intel gathering tool. There should be skill/mods/the scanner for that. However, you should make sure that carebears are not too vulnerable to pirates, since if you make low sec too dangerous, low sec will empty out even more than it already is.
Hypatia Iola	Posted - 2007.02.07 16:23:00 - [28] Edited by: Hypatia Iola on 07/02/2007 16:21:31 i'm of 2 minds on this: 1 i really don't think chat should be used as a weapon, it strikes a chord with me 2 i really don't lkke the way they have scanners set up (that is, they're useless unless you're hunting) solution: talk to get into chat but have passive system-wide scanners, which can be beaten with cloaks/whatever. that way miners can still go out and work to detecct incoming pirates ahead of time, but pirates have an effective counter, which right now they don't edit lol ****ion-hilarious... corrected spelling
Meditril	Posted - 2007.02.07 19:21:00 - [29] Local is okay, its good to know how is around for both parties: pirates and carebeers. Rather I propose to remove cloaked ships from local. Cloaked ships are nearly useless because you are not really act covered if everybody in a system knows you are there.
Xaen Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2007.02.07 19:26:00 - [30] I sort of agree. Cloaked ships should not have their pilots appear in local while cloaked (even after talking - so as to leave you guessing if they left or not). If you're bring a big ass war party, or a big ass ship for that matter - into a system, why shouldn't your presence be obvious (broadcast)? - More hotkeys! Faster skill training

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